Black Lives Matter

Ledbetterman10

brianlux said:

cincybearcat said:

Though, I will say honoring John Lewis would be very appropriate and powerful.  Forget the old school normal names, let start honoring those that have been working in real time as well.

This!  I thought of Lewis after I posted but was already half way out the door.  That is an excellent suggestion.

They’re changing a school named after Robert E. Lee to Lewis....

https://www.brproud.com/news/virginia-board-changes-schools-name-from-robert-e-lee-to-john-lewis/amp/

brianlux

Yes, BLM.

mace1229

brianlux said:

dignin said:

brianlux said:

wndowpayne said:

They have replaced a Robert e Lee statue with a George Floyd hologram in Richmond..

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say I think it's ridiculous that George Floyd is being used as a figure to represent African American pride.  Yes, it's tragic that he was murdered- absolutely!  But was the man a hero?  Did he accomplish great things in his life?  No, he was not.  He was a victim, yes, but a great man?  No. Why instead do they not raise statues of true African American heroes?  I could name dozens.  Anyone here (I hope) could name at least several.

You don't have to be a great man to inspire positive change. If he inspires a movement that makes lives better, saves lives and helps create a more just society...that qualifies as a hero in my book.

Floyd did nothing to inspire change.  If that's what we're basing it on, maybe put up a statue of the person who took the video that brought this incident to light.

I stand by my thinking.  How many statues of Ida B. Wells have we seen?  Or Frederick Douglas?  Thurgood Marshall?  Harriet Tubman?  Duke Ellington?  These are the people who deserve our praise, not some less than average guy who just happened to be a victim of police violence.

I agree with this. But honestly would be afraid to post it on FB or many other places, and think a lot of people would be angered just by reading Floyd wasn’t a hero.

I also think most heroes aren’t really heroes, just right place right time. Like capt Sully. Good pilot? Yes. Hero? I don’t know, what choices did he have? Crash the plane or make a water landing. I think he made the choice most good pilots would make. 99% of pilots will never be put in that situation and ever given the chance though.

Is rather put up a statue of someone who did have a choice, like some of the ones you mentioned for example.

oftenreading

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

dignin said:

brianlux said:

wndowpayne said:

They have replaced a Robert e Lee statue with a George Floyd hologram in Richmond..

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say I think it's ridiculous that George Floyd is being used as a figure to represent African American pride.  Yes, it's tragic that he was murdered- absolutely!  But was the man a hero?  Did he accomplish great things in his life?  No, he was not.  He was a victim, yes, but a great man?  No. Why instead do they not raise statues of true African American heroes?  I could name dozens.  Anyone here (I hope) could name at least several.

You don't have to be a great man to inspire positive change. If he inspires a movement that makes lives better, saves lives and helps create a more just society...that qualifies as a hero in my book.

Floyd did nothing to inspire change.  If that's what we're basing it on, maybe put up a statue of the person who took the video that brought this incident to light.

I stand by my thinking.  How many statues of Ida B. Wells have we seen?  Or Frederick Douglas?  Thurgood Marshall?  Harriet Tubman?  Duke Ellington?  These are the people who deserve our praise, not some less than average guy who just happened to be a victim of police violence.

I agree with this. But honestly would be afraid to post it on FB or many other places, and think a lot of people would be angered just by reading Floyd wasn’t a hero.

I also think most heroes aren’t really heroes, just right place right time. Like capt Sully. Good pilot? Yes. Hero? I don’t know, what choices did he have? Crash the plane or make a water landing. I think he made the choice most good pilots would make. 99% of pilots will never be put in that situation and ever given the chance though.

Is rather put up a statue of someone who did have a choice, like some of the ones you mentioned for example.

One doesn't need to be a hero to inspire change. 

mace1229

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

dignin said:

brianlux said:

wndowpayne said:

They have replaced a Robert e Lee statue with a George Floyd hologram in Richmond..

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say I think it's ridiculous that George Floyd is being used as a figure to represent African American pride.  Yes, it's tragic that he was murdered- absolutely!  But was the man a hero?  Did he accomplish great things in his life?  No, he was not.  He was a victim, yes, but a great man?  No. Why instead do they not raise statues of true African American heroes?  I could name dozens.  Anyone here (I hope) could name at least several.

You don't have to be a great man to inspire positive change. If he inspires a movement that makes lives better, saves lives and helps create a more just society...that qualifies as a hero in my book.

Floyd did nothing to inspire change.  If that's what we're basing it on, maybe put up a statue of the person who took the video that brought this incident to light.

I stand by my thinking.  How many statues of Ida B. Wells have we seen?  Or Frederick Douglas?  Thurgood Marshall?  Harriet Tubman?  Duke Ellington?  These are the people who deserve our praise, not some less than average guy who just happened to be a victim of police violence.

I agree with this. But honestly would be afraid to post it on FB or many other places, and think a lot of people would be angered just by reading Floyd wasn’t a hero.

I also think most heroes aren’t really heroes, just right place right time. Like capt Sully. Good pilot? Yes. Hero? I don’t know, what choices did he have? Crash the plane or make a water landing. I think he made the choice most good pilots would make. 99% of pilots will never be put in that situation and ever given the chance though.

Is rather put up a statue of someone who did have a choice, like some of the ones you mentioned for example.

One doesn't need to be a hero to inspire change. 

True. But it seems to me many are treating him as a hero. And maybe he is to some. But to me heroes and those deserving of statues are more than wrong place wrong time.
My point being if there’s going to be statues I think someone like Harriet Tubman is a more important figure and most kids don’t even know who she was. Memorialize her first.

Edit: after further thought I take back what I said. We memorialize victims all the time in tragedies (school shootings, etc) This was a tragedy that fueled a nation wide movement. A memorial would be fitting. It’s just frustrating that many people don’t know other important historical figures too like the ones mentioned before.

brianlux

Yes, black lives matter.

brianlux

Well, I hate pissing people off.  Apparently, speaking my mind does that sometime.  That sucks.

So here's what I'm going to do on this thread from now on:  I've edited out my posts from today.   Now, because  black lives do matter to me, I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing since the George Floyd incident occurred, which is to better educate myself about some black lives that have done great things in America to make black people's lives better and to enrich ours.  I'll occasionally report back by posting things I've learned about African Americans that inform, teach, and inspire.

Books are always a great place to start, and one of the best books I've read lately is Arthur Taylor's Notes and Tones, which is a collection of interviews black jazz drummer Taylor did with several prominent black (mostly jazz) musicians.  One of the things that makes this book very much worth checking out is that not only does Taylor ask questions about music (a favorite subject for me), but he also discusses quite a bit about race, equality and justice as it pertains to African Americans in general.  This book is a great way for music fans to get some good background information about black issues in America.  Highly recommended!

Another excellent source of black history education for me is the excellent film, "Marshall", a movie based on true story about one of the great black heroes in America, black NAACP lawyer Thurgood Marshall.  An excellent movie!

dignin

brianlux said:

Well, I hate pissing people off.  Apparently, speaking my mind does that sometime.  That sucks.

So here's what I'm going to do on this thread from now on:  I've edited out my posts from today.   Now, because  black lives do matter to me, I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing since the George Floyd incident occurred, which is to better educate myself about some black lives that have done great things in America to make black people's lives better and to enrich ours.  I'll occasionally report back by posting things I've learned about African Americans that inform, teach, and inspire.

Books are always a great place to start, and one of the best books I've read lately is Arthur Taylor's Notes and Tones, which is a collection of interviews black jazz drummer Taylor did with several prominent black (mostly jazz) musicians.  One of the things that makes this book very much worth checking out is that not only does Taylor ask questions about music (a favorite subject for me), but he also discusses quite a bit about race, equality and justice as it pertains to African Americans in general.  This book is a great way for music fans to get some good background information about black issues in America.  Highly recommended!

Another excellent source of black history education for me is the excellent film, "Marshall", a movie based on true story about one of the great black heroes in America, black NAACP lawyer Thurgood Marshall.  An excellent movie!

I don't think anyone was pissed off, I know I wasn't. Just disagreed with your assessment. I do that with everyone from time to time. We did it respectably, no need to edit your posts.

Halifax2TheMax

dignin said:

brianlux said:

Well, I hate pissing people off.  Apparently, speaking my mind does that sometime.  That sucks.

So here's what I'm going to do on this thread from now on:  I've edited out my posts from today.   Now, because  black lives do matter to me, I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing since the George Floyd incident occurred, which is to better educate myself about some black lives that have done great things in America to make black people's lives better and to enrich ours.  I'll occasionally report back by posting things I've learned about African Americans that inform, teach, and inspire.

Books are always a great place to start, and one of the best books I've read lately is Arthur Taylor's Notes and Tones, which is a collection of interviews black jazz drummer Taylor did with several prominent black (mostly jazz) musicians.  One of the things that makes this book very much worth checking out is that not only does Taylor ask questions about music (a favorite subject for me), but he also discusses quite a bit about race, equality and justice as it pertains to African Americans in general.  This book is a great way for music fans to get some good background information about black issues in America.  Highly recommended!

Another excellent source of black history education for me is the excellent film, "Marshall", a movie based on true story about one of the great black heroes in America, black NAACP lawyer Thurgood Marshall.  An excellent movie!

I don't think anyone was pissed off, I know I wasn't. Just disagreed with your assessment. I do that with everyone from time to time. We did it respectably, no need to edit your posts.

Agreed.

hedonist

Why self-censor? Is it better to not speak your mind and have a few disagree, or never offer your opinion so everyone is “happy”?

(Not an attack on you, but I find the act to be shortchanging oneself.)

brianlux

hedonist said:

Why self-censor? Is it better to not speak your mind and have a few disagree, or never offer your opinion so everyone is “happy”?

(Not an attack on you, but I find the act to be shortchanging oneself.)

I agree, and that's cool what you're saying.  The thing is, this is such a touchy subject and the point I was trying to make is REALLY hard to get across clearly.  I could keep trying but it occurred to me that the better thing to do at this point is move on.  That, and I've really been digging learning about some very cool African American people lately.  Marshall blew my mind.  What force of nature that dude was!  And all those black jazz musicians- wow- ultra cool!  And I loved it that in Notes and Tones, Taylor gave great interviews with some of the finest ladies in jazz and vocal music- Carmen McRae, Nina Simone, Betty Carter.  Hot damn!  Brilliant! 

oftenreading

mace1229 said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

dignin said:

brianlux said:

wndowpayne said:

They have replaced a Robert e Lee statue with a George Floyd hologram in Richmond..

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say I think it's ridiculous that George Floyd is being used as a figure to represent African American pride.  Yes, it's tragic that he was murdered- absolutely!  But was the man a hero?  Did he accomplish great things in his life?  No, he was not.  He was a victim, yes, but a great man?  No. Why instead do they not raise statues of true African American heroes?  I could name dozens.  Anyone here (I hope) could name at least several.

You don't have to be a great man to inspire positive change. If he inspires a movement that makes lives better, saves lives and helps create a more just society...that qualifies as a hero in my book.

Floyd did nothing to inspire change.  If that's what we're basing it on, maybe put up a statue of the person who took the video that brought this incident to light.

I stand by my thinking.  How many statues of Ida B. Wells have we seen?  Or Frederick Douglas?  Thurgood Marshall?  Harriet Tubman?  Duke Ellington?  These are the people who deserve our praise, not some less than average guy who just happened to be a victim of police violence.

I agree with this. But honestly would be afraid to post it on FB or many other places, and think a lot of people would be angered just by reading Floyd wasn’t a hero.

I also think most heroes aren’t really heroes, just right place right time. Like capt Sully. Good pilot? Yes. Hero? I don’t know, what choices did he have? Crash the plane or make a water landing. I think he made the choice most good pilots would make. 99% of pilots will never be put in that situation and ever given the chance though.

Is rather put up a statue of someone who did have a choice, like some of the ones you mentioned for example.

One doesn't need to be a hero to inspire change. 

True. But it seems to me many are treating him as a hero. And maybe he is to some. But to me heroes and those deserving of statues are more than wrong place wrong time.
My point being if there’s going to be statues I think someone like Harriet Tubman is a more important figure and most kids don’t even know who she was. Memorialize her first.

Edit: after further thought I take back what I said. We memorialize victims all the time in tragedies (school shootings, etc) This was a tragedy that fueled a nation wide movement. A memorial would be fitting. It’s just frustrating that many people don’t know other important historical figures too like the ones mentioned before.

mace1229 said:

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

dignin said:

brianlux said:

wndowpayne said:

They have replaced a Robert e Lee statue with a George Floyd hologram in Richmond..

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say I think it's ridiculous that George Floyd is being used as a figure to represent African American pride.  Yes, it's tragic that he was murdered- absolutely!  But was the man a hero?  Did he accomplish great things in his life?  No, he was not.  He was a victim, yes, but a great man?  No. Why instead do they not raise statues of true African American heroes?  I could name dozens.  Anyone here (I hope) could name at least several.

You don't have to be a great man to inspire positive change. If he inspires a movement that makes lives better, saves lives and helps create a more just society...that qualifies as a hero in my book.

Floyd did nothing to inspire change.  If that's what we're basing it on, maybe put up a statue of the person who took the video that brought this incident to light.

I stand by my thinking.  How many statues of Ida B. Wells have we seen?  Or Frederick Douglas?  Thurgood Marshall?  Harriet Tubman?  Duke Ellington?  These are the people who deserve our praise, not some less than average guy who just happened to be a victim of police violence.

I agree with this. But honestly would be afraid to post it on FB or many other places, and think a lot of people would be angered just by reading Floyd wasn’t a hero.

I also think most heroes aren’t really heroes, just right place right time. Like capt Sully. Good pilot? Yes. Hero? I don’t know, what choices did he have? Crash the plane or make a water landing. I think he made the choice most good pilots would make. 99% of pilots will never be put in that situation and ever given the chance though.

Is rather put up a statue of someone who did have a choice, like some of the ones you mentioned for example.

One doesn't need to be a hero to inspire change. 

True. But it seems to me many are treating him as a hero. And maybe he is to some. But to me heroes and those deserving of statues are more than wrong place wrong time.
My point being if there’s going to be statues I think someone like Harriet Tubman is a more important figure and most kids don’t even know who she was. Memorialize her first.

Edit: after further thought I take back what I said. We memorialize victims all the time in tragedies (school shootings, etc) This was a tragedy that fueled a nation wide movement. A memorial would be fitting. It’s just frustrating that many people don’t know other important historical figures too like the ones mentioned before.

On December 6, 1989, a bitter misogynist who is not worth naming went to L’École Polytechniqué, the engineering school affiliated with the Université de Montréal. He entered a classroom, told the male and female students to separate into two groups, and told the men to leave. He then stated he was “fighting feminism” and opened fire, killing six of the nine women in the room, after which he ranged through the corridors, shooting at women and killing another eight before killing himself. It is believed that he targeted women because he could not accept that women could have careers, particularly skilled jobs. 

That was the deadliest mass shooting to date in Canada and had a massive impact on our country. December 6th is still recognized every year as the National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women. In addition to bringing attention to violence against women, it led to changes in gun control laws and procedures for how police respond to mass shootings, including school shootings. 

All of those women were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. None of them were heroes in any traditional sense. The events of their deaths raised awareness of serious issues in society, and they are still remembered today, both in multiple fixed memorials across the country and in ceremonies and marches every December. 

brianlux

I'm tempted to put this one in "Other Music" but I think it belongs here (I'll explain).

We just finished watching this excellent biopic about James Brown, "Get On Up":

Great movie, really well done! 

The man was a genius, he was driven, he was relentless.  The man also had his faults, no doubt. He was a real mixed bag in terms of doing good yet also being harmful to some of those around him.  He was a dangerous and abusive man.

But as his music relates to BLM, he contributions would well be recognized.   I remember Brown's influence on culture in the 60's and 70's quite clearly.  When JB was in his hey day, songs like (and especially) "Say it Loud- I'm Black and I'm Proud" moved mountains.  You could see the change that music made in people.  You could feel the change happening.  And you could definitely hear it.  The movie covers a lot of territory in Brown's life, so it's not primarily about  black pride.  But when that part of his career was happening, the impact on society and black culture and pride was monumental.

nicknyr15

Shaun king is the worst. Did he ever fix the “unarmed “ part?

https://m.facebook.com/shaunking/posts/3354623244576570

nicknyr15

https://nypost.com/2020/07/30/man-at-portland-protest-says-he-was-stabbed-for-his-politics/

“Responsible & Peaceful Knife Owner”

dignin

Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) Tweeted:

My God https://t.co/lQa1OICgnQ

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1288625381784748032?s=20

jeffbr

Disgusting. That's some serious southern pride right there.

Halifax2TheMax

dignin said:

Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) Tweeted:

My God https://t.co/lQa1OICgnQ

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1288625381784748032?s=20

He shouldn’t be out there doing that. Did you see how he caused all that agitation? Those people might have burned down that wal mart or something. I hope he learns to stay home and be quiet.

Halifax2TheMax

Team Trump Treason's got the bikers.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-umbrella-man-autozone-fire-hells-angels-police

cincybearcat

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

Why self-censor? Is it better to not speak your mind and have a few disagree, or never offer your opinion so everyone is “happy”?

(Not an attack on you, but I find the act to be shortchanging oneself.)

I agree, and that's cool what you're saying.  The thing is, this is such a touchy subject and the point I was trying to make is REALLY hard to get across clearly.  I could keep trying but it occurred to me that the better thing to do at this point is move on.  That, and I've really been digging learning about some very cool African American people lately.  Marshall blew my mind.  What force of nature that dude was!  And all those black jazz musicians- wow- ultra cool!  And I loved it that in Notes and Tones, Taylor gave great interviews with some of the finest ladies in jazz and vocal music- Carmen McRae, Nina Simone, Betty Carter.  Hot damn!  Brilliant! 

dignin said:

brianlux said:

dignin said:

brianlux said:

wndowpayne said:

They have replaced a Robert e Lee statue with a George Floyd hologram in Richmond..

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say I think it's ridiculous that George Floyd is being used as a figure to represent African American pride.  Yes, it's tragic that he was murdered- absolutely!  But was the man a hero?  Did he accomplish great things in his life?  No, he was not.  He was a victim, yes, but a great man?  No. Why instead do they not raise statues of true African American heroes?  I could name dozens.  Anyone here (I hope) could name at least several.

You don't have to be a great man to inspire positive change. If he inspires a movement that makes lives better, saves lives and helps create a more just society...that qualifies as a hero in my book.

Floyd did nothing to inspire change.  If that's what we're basing it on, maybe put up a statue of the person who took the video that brought this incident to light.

I stand by my thinking.  How many statues of Ida B. Wells have we seen?  Or Frederick Douglas?  Thurgood Marshall?  Harriet Tubman?  Duke Ellington?  These are the people who deserve our praise, not some less than average guy who just happened to be a victim of police violence.

In the end it doesn't matter how you or I feel about him. His death did inspire hundreds of thousands to get out and march for change, that is not really debatable. Who am I to know or tell what motivates other people. He didn't inspire you? Fine, that's cool, but you don't speak for everyone.

I don't really think it's fair to call the guy less than average either. Unless, of course, you knew him personally.

Brian - I appreciate your willingness to speak your mind.  It opens discussion.  That is a good thing.  I personally think it was a good discussion to have. Because it is often brought up.  And people do use the past life of these victims as a reason that it's ok they died (not that you were).  My initial knee jerk reaction to these events is similar.  I've tried to step back and listen more.  The BLM org doesn't get to pick their martyrs, their symbols, etc.  Generally it's white people of power that do so through their interactions with the victims.