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George Floyd Protests

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  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 17,877
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

    turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

    dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

    so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?
    Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

    Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

    at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.
    Then you should move to another country.
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,101
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

    turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

    dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

    so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?
    Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

    Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

    at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.
    I shared an article a few weeks ago when this question was being asked. Tasers are not as effective as they advertise. They are far less likely to stop an individual who is about to kill someone. 
    A cop arrives on scene. He sees someone with a deadly weapon, who appears to be attempting to use it on someone else. At that moment the back history of the individuals doesn't matter, it would be his duty to protect the victim. And regardless of the circumstances, the girl being lunged at with a knife, at that moment, is the victim. 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,111
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

    turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

    dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

    so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?
    Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

    Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

    at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.
    Highlighted the above. You seem to be missing a huge point.  Cop had no idea how old that person was w the knife upon arriving to the scene.

    No one in "normalizing" killing kids.  That is what you choose to see and no matter what anyone says you still can't see what everyone else is saying.

    You have never had gun training and I can understand that.  When you train you are taught to shoot multipole times as a bullet has certain "stopping power" and depending on what you are using one shot may not do it or your shot might be slightly off.
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 8,032
    edited May 11
    I understand the argument and I think it does come down to re-training cops, but the current response to a life threatening incident is to stop the threat. You aren't trained to count your shots or shoot just once; it's stop the threat. I don't know if this is still the case, but you are taught to shoot until there is not a threat and then stop and re-asses while you maintain a ready position. You also don't aim to injure because that isn't usually effective if your trying to stop a threat. Could these be potential changes in how police respond, yeah, of course, but then people would have to be willing to accept the alternate reality of what that means as well; more possible victims from failed attempts not to use lethal force to stop the threat, but maybe less police shootings(?).

    I don't claim to have the answer, but I do think certain situations could be handled differently. The one garnering all of the discussion here is a hard one for me to see an alternative option. Yes, a taser could be used, but the time and effort it takes to determine if that worked would most likely result in a severe injury, if not death. Under normal circumstances, one cop would have less than lethal and the other would have lethal in the event the less than lethal is not effective. You would usually see that in a situation involving a suspect with a knife who is far enough away and not actively trying to stab anyone. You won't ever see a cop by themself pull a taser to meet the threat of a person with a deadly weapon. They have to survive the encounter or protect the person being threatened, but multiple officers have more flexibility in how they de-escalate. Training teaches you to exceed the level of threat being presented by one step.

    I think this chart is a good example of how most police are trained to handle the use of force continuum.
    Philadelphia Police Department Use Of Force Continuum
    Post edited by tbergs on
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,540
    dankind said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

    turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

    dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

    so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?
    Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

    Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

    at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.
    Then you should move to another country.
    I really should
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,540
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

    turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

    dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

    so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?
    Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

    Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

    at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.
    Highlighted the above. You seem to be missing a huge point.  Cop had no idea how old that person was w the knife upon arriving to the scene.

    No one in "normalizing" killing kids.  That is what you choose to see and no matter what anyone says you still can't see what everyone else is saying.

    You have never had gun training and I can understand that.  When you train you are taught to shoot multipole times as a bullet has certain "stopping power" and depending on what you are using one shot may not do it or your shot might be slightly off.
    Before I grew a brain (living in rural Michigan) I was an NRA member and hunter, during this time I took several gun safety courses.  I guess the problem is that none of those courses were about how to kill a person, so I guess though I did receive gun training I didn’t get the right kind to empathize with killing of humans.
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 8,032
    edited May 11
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

    turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

    dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

    so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?
    Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

    Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

    at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.
    Highlighted the above. You seem to be missing a huge point.  Cop had no idea how old that person was w the knife upon arriving to the scene.

    No one in "normalizing" killing kids.  That is what you choose to see and no matter what anyone says you still can't see what everyone else is saying.

    You have never had gun training and I can understand that.  When you train you are taught to shoot multipole times as a bullet has certain "stopping power" and depending on what you are using one shot may not do it or your shot might be slightly off.
    Before I grew a brain (living in rural Michigan) I was an NRA member and hunter, during this time I took several gun safety courses.  I guess the problem is that none of those courses were about how to kill a person, so I guess though I did receive gun training I didn’t get the right kind to empathize with killing of humans.
    As a hunter though, you were trained to shoot prey in the most likely place to inflict a fatal wound and that's was so it wouldn't suffer or escape. Very rarely do humans kill animals based on threat, but when they do it's more often than not a self-created threat because they did not keep their distance or caused the encounter to occur. When that happens, they then shoot to kill because injury doesn't guarantee survival by the potential victim. The same rules apply when a human encounters a human in the act of a direct deadly threat. Now, could there there be an alternative option like the tranquilizers used on big game to track and study them, maybe, but it would require an immediate sedation response upon contact to prevent further violence.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,540
    tbergs said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

    turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

    dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

    so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?
    Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

    Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

    at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.
    Highlighted the above. You seem to be missing a huge point.  Cop had no idea how old that person was w the knife upon arriving to the scene.

    No one in "normalizing" killing kids.  That is what you choose to see and no matter what anyone says you still can't see what everyone else is saying.

    You have never had gun training and I can understand that.  When you train you are taught to shoot multipole times as a bullet has certain "stopping power" and depending on what you are using one shot may not do it or your shot might be slightly off.
    Before I grew a brain (living in rural Michigan) I was an NRA member and hunter, during this time I took several gun safety courses.  I guess the problem is that none of those courses were about how to kill a person, so I guess though I did receive gun training I didn’t get the right kind to empathize with killing of humans.
    As a hunter though, you were trained to shoot prey in the most likely place to inflict a fatal wound and that's was so it wouldn't suffer or escape. Very rarely do humans kill animals based on threat, but when they do it's more often than not a self-created threat because they did not keep their distance or caused the encounter to occur. When that happens, they then shoot to kill because injury doesn't guarantee survival by the potential victim. The same rules apply when a human encounters a human in the act of a direct deadly threat. Now, could there there be an alternative option like the tranquilizers used on big game to track and study them, maybe, but it would require an immediate sedation response upon contact to prevent further violence.
    That actually seems like a good idea, though admittedly I know nothing about the speed at which tranquilizers become effective.  
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,101
    static111 said:
    tbergs said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

    turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

    dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

    so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?
    Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

    Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

    at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.
    Highlighted the above. You seem to be missing a huge point.  Cop had no idea how old that person was w the knife upon arriving to the scene.

    No one in "normalizing" killing kids.  That is what you choose to see and no matter what anyone says you still can't see what everyone else is saying.

    You have never had gun training and I can understand that.  When you train you are taught to shoot multipole times as a bullet has certain "stopping power" and depending on what you are using one shot may not do it or your shot might be slightly off.
    Before I grew a brain (living in rural Michigan) I was an NRA member and hunter, during this time I took several gun safety courses.  I guess the problem is that none of those courses were about how to kill a person, so I guess though I did receive gun training I didn’t get the right kind to empathize with killing of humans.
    As a hunter though, you were trained to shoot prey in the most likely place to inflict a fatal wound and that's was so it wouldn't suffer or escape. Very rarely do humans kill animals based on threat, but when they do it's more often than not a self-created threat because they did not keep their distance or caused the encounter to occur. When that happens, they then shoot to kill because injury doesn't guarantee survival by the potential victim. The same rules apply when a human encounters a human in the act of a direct deadly threat. Now, could there there be an alternative option like the tranquilizers used on big game to track and study them, maybe, but it would require an immediate sedation response upon contact to prevent further violence.
    That actually seems like a good idea, though admittedly I know nothing about the speed at which tranquilizers become effective.  
    That sounds like a terrible idea. They aren't instant, so it won't stop an immediate threat of someone lunging with a knife or pulling a gun. And you have to estimate weight. You can't expect a cop to estimate weight in a lethal situation, enter the correct dose, and fire a tranquilizer hoping they hit with their one shot using a correct dose and that the subject gives up during the time it takes to take effect. 
    Elijah McCain was killed because the paramedics overestimated his weight when trying to subdue him and he died several days later.
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,540
    mace1229 said:
    static111 said:
    tbergs said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

    turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

    dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

    so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?
    Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

    Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

    at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.
    Highlighted the above. You seem to be missing a huge point.  Cop had no idea how old that person was w the knife upon arriving to the scene.

    No one in "normalizing" killing kids.  That is what you choose to see and no matter what anyone says you still can't see what everyone else is saying.

    You have never had gun training and I can understand that.  When you train you are taught to shoot multipole times as a bullet has certain "stopping power" and depending on what you are using one shot may not do it or your shot might be slightly off.
    Before I grew a brain (living in rural Michigan) I was an NRA member and hunter, during this time I took several gun safety courses.  I guess the problem is that none of those courses were about how to kill a person, so I guess though I did receive gun training I didn’t get the right kind to empathize with killing of humans.
    As a hunter though, you were trained to shoot prey in the most likely place to inflict a fatal wound and that's was so it wouldn't suffer or escape. Very rarely do humans kill animals based on threat, but when they do it's more often than not a self-created threat because they did not keep their distance or caused the encounter to occur. When that happens, they then shoot to kill because injury doesn't guarantee survival by the potential victim. The same rules apply when a human encounters a human in the act of a direct deadly threat. Now, could there there be an alternative option like the tranquilizers used on big game to track and study them, maybe, but it would require an immediate sedation response upon contact to prevent further violence.
    That actually seems like a good idea, though admittedly I know nothing about the speed at which tranquilizers become effective.  
    That sounds like a terrible idea. They aren't instant, so it won't stop an immediate threat of someone lunging with a knife or pulling a gun. And you have to estimate weight. You can't expect a cop to estimate weight in a lethal situation, enter the correct dose, and fire a tranquilizer hoping they hit with their one shot using a correct dose and that the subject gives up during the time it takes to take effect. 
    Elijah McCain was killed because the paramedics overestimated his weight when trying to subdue him and he died several days later.
    *Well I guess deadly force is the only possible option at all times then*
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,101
    static111 said:
    mace1229 said:
    static111 said:
    tbergs said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.

    turns out he says . cop didn't have that time sort out out who is who, who made the call.

    dispatched on a attempted stabbing. pulls on scene. sees an attempted stabbing in progress, knife raised.

    so tell me expert cop trainer, what were his actions supposed to be in this specific situation? in that second or 2 from exiting his cruiser and maybe taking 3 or so steps?
    Isn’t this what tasers are for, or do those only get used as an excuse for when a cop gets confused.  Also I don’t understand the reason for multiple shots if the only option was a gun, one shot wouldn’t do? The girl could still be alive in this situation.  This is definitely a situation that shows me it would be justified to cut a police budget and invest that money in better family services and access to needy families.  

    Maybe the fault isn’t with this individual officer, it is likely that our flawed policing system is to blame here.  How many other countries does this stuff happen in.

    at the end of the day I don’t want to see people normalize cops killing kids.
    Highlighted the above. You seem to be missing a huge point.  Cop had no idea how old that person was w the knife upon arriving to the scene.

    No one in "normalizing" killing kids.  That is what you choose to see and no matter what anyone says you still can't see what everyone else is saying.

    You have never had gun training and I can understand that.  When you train you are taught to shoot multipole times as a bullet has certain "stopping power" and depending on what you are using one shot may not do it or your shot might be slightly off.
    Before I grew a brain (living in rural Michigan) I was an NRA member and hunter, during this time I took several gun safety courses.  I guess the problem is that none of those courses were about how to kill a person, so I guess though I did receive gun training I didn’t get the right kind to empathize with killing of humans.
    As a hunter though, you were trained to shoot prey in the most likely place to inflict a fatal wound and that's was so it wouldn't suffer or escape. Very rarely do humans kill animals based on threat, but when they do it's more often than not a self-created threat because they did not keep their distance or caused the encounter to occur. When that happens, they then shoot to kill because injury doesn't guarantee survival by the potential victim. The same rules apply when a human encounters a human in the act of a direct deadly threat. Now, could there there be an alternative option like the tranquilizers used on big game to track and study them, maybe, but it would require an immediate sedation response upon contact to prevent further violence.
    That actually seems like a good idea, though admittedly I know nothing about the speed at which tranquilizers become effective.  
    That sounds like a terrible idea. They aren't instant, so it won't stop an immediate threat of someone lunging with a knife or pulling a gun. And you have to estimate weight. You can't expect a cop to estimate weight in a lethal situation, enter the correct dose, and fire a tranquilizer hoping they hit with their one shot using a correct dose and that the subject gives up during the time it takes to take effect. 
    Elijah McCain was killed because the paramedics overestimated his weight when trying to subdue him and he died several days later.
    *Well I guess deadly force is the only possible option at all times then*
    Hardly. It shouldn't be an option 99.99% of the time. But that 0.01% when a life is in immediate danger, sometimes lethal force is the best option.
    And before some go asking for links about my 99.99%, that's a guess base on the fact most cops go their whole career without ever firing their weapon at someone, and the fact there's about 1000fatal police shootings a year with millions of police stops. 
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,212
    tbergs said:
    I understand the argument and I think it does come down to re-training cops, but the current response to a life threatening incident is to stop the threat. You aren't trained to count your shots or shoot just once; it's stop the threat. I don't know if this is still the case, but you are taught to shoot until there is not a threat and then stop and re-asses while you maintain a ready position. You also don't aim to injure because that isn't usually effective if your trying to stop a threat. Could these be potential changes in how police respond, yeah, of course, but then people would have to be willing to accept the alternate reality of what that means as well; more possible victims from failed attempts not to use lethal force to stop the threat, but maybe less police shootings(?).

    I don't claim to have the answer, but I do think certain situations could be handled differently. The one garnering all of the discussion here is a hard one for me to see an alternative option. Yes, a taser could be used, but the time and effort it takes to determine if that worked would most likely result in a severe injury, if not death. Under normal circumstances, one cop would have less than lethal and the other would have lethal in the event the less than lethal is not effective. You would usually see that in a situation involving a suspect with a knife who is far enough away and not actively trying to stab anyone. You won't ever see a cop by themself pull a taser to meet the threat of a person with a deadly weapon. They have to survive the encounter or protect the person being threatened, but multiple officers have more flexibility in how they de-escalate. Training teaches you to exceed the level of threat being presented by one step.

    I think this chart is a good example of how most police are trained to handle the use of force continuum.
    Philadelphia Police Department Use Of Force Continuum

    ....can't even spell 'necessary' correctly....
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • cblock4lifecblock4life Posts: 354
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.
    Before I say this let me remind you that I’m on your side, however, when placing blame you seem to miss the first step before society fails family, and it’s that family failed family. No one should be left blameless in these situations. 
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,212
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.
    Before I say this let me remind you that I’m on your side, however, when placing blame you seem to miss the first step before society fails family, and it’s that family failed family. No one should be left blameless in these situations. 

    I agree, we really need to look into the police officer's family history.  
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
  • nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 4,412
    CM189191 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.
    Before I say this let me remind you that I’m on your side, however, when placing blame you seem to miss the first step before society fails family, and it’s that family failed family. No one should be left blameless in these situations. 

    I agree, we really need to look into the police officer's family history.  
    🙄
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,101
    Obviously it’s everybody’s fault except for the person with the knife trying to stab someone.
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 8,032
    CM189191 said:
    tbergs said:
    I understand the argument and I think it does come down to re-training cops, but the current response to a life threatening incident is to stop the threat. You aren't trained to count your shots or shoot just once; it's stop the threat. I don't know if this is still the case, but you are taught to shoot until there is not a threat and then stop and re-asses while you maintain a ready position. You also don't aim to injure because that isn't usually effective if your trying to stop a threat. Could these be potential changes in how police respond, yeah, of course, but then people would have to be willing to accept the alternate reality of what that means as well; more possible victims from failed attempts not to use lethal force to stop the threat, but maybe less police shootings(?).

    I don't claim to have the answer, but I do think certain situations could be handled differently. The one garnering all of the discussion here is a hard one for me to see an alternative option. Yes, a taser could be used, but the time and effort it takes to determine if that worked would most likely result in a severe injury, if not death. Under normal circumstances, one cop would have less than lethal and the other would have lethal in the event the less than lethal is not effective. You would usually see that in a situation involving a suspect with a knife who is far enough away and not actively trying to stab anyone. You won't ever see a cop by themself pull a taser to meet the threat of a person with a deadly weapon. They have to survive the encounter or protect the person being threatened, but multiple officers have more flexibility in how they de-escalate. Training teaches you to exceed the level of threat being presented by one step.

    I think this chart is a good example of how most police are trained to handle the use of force continuum.
    Philadelphia Police Department Use Of Force Continuum

    ....can't even spell 'necessary' correctly....
    Wow, great catch and addition to the conversation. In your haste to bash a police department you should have maybe read that the chart is a "source" reference. The police didn't misspell the word, the group trying to critique police did. I just thought it was easier for a common person to understand. Didn't realize the grammar police were going to take issue with this.

    Feel free to contact them about their error and how you can't take them seriously because of this - http://useofforceproject.org/#project. What a bunch of losers, right? It looks like they are seeking donations so you could help them hire more skilled staff too.

    Philly PD's chart looks like this. Feel free to spell check it in case they got something wrong.

     
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,101
    edited May 12
    Are grammar police all racists with a small penis too?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 21,321
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,540
    mace1229 said:
    Obviously it’s everybody’s fault except for the person with the knife trying to stab someone.
    The child trying to protect herself from several aggressive adults that had been threatening her and her younger sister.
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,540
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.
    Before I say this let me remind you that I’m on your side, however, when placing blame you seem to miss the first step before society fails family, and it’s that family failed family. No one should be left blameless in these situations. 
    Sure let’s look into the history of the US and see what led to many of the problems of marginalized communities, I bet it’s a history of racism bad policies and laws, red lining, underinvestment etc. Lets not forget what leads to many people having a tough life, lack of opportunity and a failure of society.
  • cblock4lifecblock4life Posts: 354
    CM189191 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.
    Before I say this let me remind you that I’m on your side, however, when placing blame you seem to miss the first step before society fails family, and it’s that family failed family. No one should be left blameless in these situations. 

    I agree, we really need to look into the police officer's family history.  
    Instead of just coming back with a shitty remark why not take the time to explain how a child’s life is not affected by their upbringing?  I’ve posted it before, after speaking with many black individuals, they’re aware that it’s not just society that’s to blame.  That’s why BLM emphasizes community and family involvement to assist with the solutions. 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,111
    static111 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Obviously it’s everybody’s fault except for the person with the knife trying to stab someone.
    The child trying to protect herself from several aggressive adults that had been threatening her and her younger sister.
    This is what Mickeys article is about.  I just learned what an Ombudsman is.  New word for me.
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,540
    static111 said:
    mace1229 said:
    Obviously it’s everybody’s fault except for the person with the knife trying to stab someone.
    The child trying to protect herself from several aggressive adults that had been threatening her and her younger sister.
    This is what Mickeys article is about.  I just learned what an Ombudsman is.  New word for me.
    Yes I read the article and several articles with the same info at the time the incident occurred.  That was a reply in response to mace’s victim blaming.
  • cblock4lifecblock4life Posts: 354
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.
    Before I say this let me remind you that I’m on your side, however, when placing blame you seem to miss the first step before society fails family, and it’s that family failed family. No one should be left blameless in these situations. 
    Sure let’s look into the history of the US and see what led to many of the problems of marginalized communities, I bet it’s a history of racism bad policies and laws, red lining, underinvestment etc. Lets not forget what leads to many people having a tough life, lack of opportunity and a failure of society.
    I’m not disputing anything you’ve presented, I’m just stating a fact.  How a child is raised, spoken to, taught, etc. are also contributing factors. 
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 8,032
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.
    Before I say this let me remind you that I’m on your side, however, when placing blame you seem to miss the first step before society fails family, and it’s that family failed family. No one should be left blameless in these situations. 
    Sure let’s look into the history of the US and see what led to many of the problems of marginalized communities, I bet it’s a history of racism bad policies and laws, red lining, underinvestment etc. Lets not forget what leads to many people having a tough life, lack of opportunity and a failure of society.
    It sure is. I recently was reading this book:
    32191706 sy475
    Despicable what was done.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,111
    tbergs said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.
    Before I say this let me remind you that I’m on your side, however, when placing blame you seem to miss the first step before society fails family, and it’s that family failed family. No one should be left blameless in these situations. 
    Sure let’s look into the history of the US and see what led to many of the problems of marginalized communities, I bet it’s a history of racism bad policies and laws, red lining, underinvestment etc. Lets not forget what leads to many people having a tough life, lack of opportunity and a failure of society.
    It sure is. I recently was reading this book:
    32191706 sy475
    Despicable what was done.
    Does this book include the "Projects" that were housing in the bigger cities?  The creation of Long Island?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 26,485
    it seems much of the dispute here is that some feel the historical plight of minorities is ALWAYS relevant to a shooting incident, while some (myself included, at least in this instance) look at the merits of the case as I see it without historical context. I simply do not believe that the cop made the decision to shoot based on the colour of her skin. She had a knife and looked like she was about to murder someone else. It's irrelevant who made the 911 call. The cop could simply not have known who was the "bad guy" in this situation; all he saw was a knife about to be plunged into a throat. 

    No way he waits in this situation even if everyone involved were white. In my opinion. 

    now, if you want to start talking about how this incident never would have happened in "white world", that's obviously valid. These situations arise from a systematic oppression of black people and minorities. Oppression begets violence. That's just fact. 

    I just don't see how this isn't an impossible situation for the cop. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • tbergstbergs Posts: 8,032
    tbergs said:
    static111 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.
    Before I say this let me remind you that I’m on your side, however, when placing blame you seem to miss the first step before society fails family, and it’s that family failed family. No one should be left blameless in these situations. 
    Sure let’s look into the history of the US and see what led to many of the problems of marginalized communities, I bet it’s a history of racism bad policies and laws, red lining, underinvestment etc. Lets not forget what leads to many people having a tough life, lack of opportunity and a failure of society.
    It sure is. I recently was reading this book:
    32191706 sy475
    Despicable what was done.
    Does this book include the "Projects" that were housing in the bigger cities?  The creation of Long Island?
    It focuses on how policies and laws didn't allow African Americans to live in certain areas and forced the segregation, even when it didn't initially exist. I don't recall it referencing projects, more about how housing, loans and government assistance excluded African Americans. It did not go over the creation of Long Island from what I remember. 
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • CM189191CM189191 Minneapolis via ChicagoPosts: 6,212
    CM189191 said:
    static111 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    more the story.

    system failures left and right..

    https://news.yahoo.com/makhia-bryants-journey-foster-care-150429468.html

    COLUMBUS, Ohio — The voice on the 911 call is a teenage girl’s, and it is quavering, as if she has been crying. “I want to leave this foster home,” she tells t...

    I hope everyone that jumped all over themselves to justify the cop killing a kid reads this.  Turns out girl in pink and several other adults were all going after two kids that already had a tough life. Society fails family, society places girl in system, system fails girl, system kills girl, system blames girl...what a shithole country.
    Before I say this let me remind you that I’m on your side, however, when placing blame you seem to miss the first step before society fails family, and it’s that family failed family. No one should be left blameless in these situations. 

    I agree, we really need to look into the police officer's family history.  
    Instead of just coming back with a shitty remark why not take the time to explain how a child’s life is not affected by their upbringing?  I’ve posted it before, after speaking with many black individuals, they’re aware that it’s not just society that’s to blame.  That’s why BLM emphasizes community and family involvement to assist with the solutions. 
    "before society fails family, and it’s that family failed family"
    what a shitty remark might look like

    see also: victim blaming
    WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020 AT 07/07/2020
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