I think if the event is postponed then TM puts the onus on the promoter to determine whether refunds will be granted.
I had tickets to see Wilco in Memphis this week, but it was postponed awhile back per TM. Despite the postponed status, the refund option was made available in the TM app. Was able to smash the request refund button, no hassle, received money back last week.
People are shocked the asswipes at TM screwed folks? We fought the beast and lost, now you see why we fought those fuckers. Still amazed almost no other bands stepped up...oh wait not shocked when it comes to $$$$
This is complete BS! Not surprised, but it doesn’t make it right.
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I’m guessing they are trying to save themselves from going out of business, and may be protecting their clients, too.
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
When the rare event postpones or cancels, they likely have the capital to issue refunds while they wait to receive the money from the promoters, but when every event cancels for 6 months, what can they do?
I’m not a friend of Ticketmaster, but if I were the CEO, I’d do the same thing.
But, I actually don’t know how any of ticket sales works; I’m just assuming, so if any one has that knowledge, feel free to correct me. I like learning!
"...what a different life had i not found this love with you..."
I’m guessing they are trying to save themselves from going out of business, and may be protecting their clients, too.
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
When the rare event postpones or cancels, they likely have the capital to issue refunds while they wait to receive the money from the promoters, but when every event cancels for 6 months, what can they do?
I’m not a friend of Ticketmaster, but if I were the CEO, I’d do the same thing.
But, I actually don’t know how any of ticket sales works; I’m just assuming, so if any one has that knowledge, feel free to correct me. I like learning!
Yeah, I agree with you (with the same caveat that I'm not in the industry and lack info). On one hand it sucks that people can't get their money back at a time when many really need it. On the other, I can't imagine anyone in the industry having a solid contingency plan for every live event drying up at once. I bet they have to take this approach because they just can't cover it. If push came to shove you're probably looking at bankruptcy, at which point we'd be begging for full value vouchers.
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
Again, TM is the promoter in most cases.
It really sucks, but also like probably 99% of businesses, they probably don't keep a ton of cash readily available. That is why so many are facing bankruptcy.
...got a mind full of questions and a teacher in my soul...
I’m assuming it would be illegal to change policies after the sale, this should be for future sales should it not? I mean otherwise they could just change their policy to final sale no refunds or exchanges.
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I’m assuming it would be illegal to change policies after the sale, this should be for future sales should it not? I mean otherwise they could just change their policy to final sale no refunds or exchanges.
It feels like a move out of desperation. Sure, they're ripe for a class action suit but that would probably leave ticket holders with pennies on their dollar when all is said and done. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass but that seems like the situation.
I’m assuming it would be illegal to change policies after the sale, this should be for future sales should it not? I mean otherwise they could just change their policy to final sale no refunds or exchanges.
It feels like a move out of desperation. Sure, they're ripe for a class action suit but that would probably leave ticket holders with pennies on their dollar when all is said and done. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass but that seems like the situation.
And the terms and conditions have a class action waiver and mandatory arbitration provision, so TM probably is confident it could short circuit any attempted class action at the outset.
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
Again, TM is the promoter in most cases.
Exactly. There was a recent billboard article about how Live Nation / TM is sitting on a ton of cash for all of these postponed events.
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
Again, TM is the promoter in most cases.
Exactly. There was a recent billboard article about how Live Nation / TM is sitting on a ton of cash for all of these postponed events.
So do you think they could reasonably issue mass refunds? Hypothetically, they could be sitting on a billion dollars but if they would have to release 2-3 billion that's the rub.
It looks like TM is also still selling tickets to shows that the artist already announced they’re postponing. I have tickets to Mudhoney for May 7 and Mudhoney announced the spring tour will be postponed. Just checked TM and they are still selling tickets for that show 😡
1994 - Bridge School Benefit, Shoreline Mountain View CA *** 1995 - 2015 High School, College, Broke, Having Kids*** 2016 - Temple of the Dog, Bill Graham Civic Center Auditorium, San Francisco CA 2017 - Eddie Vedder, Bourbon and Beyond, Louisville KY 2018 - The Home Shows, Show 2, Seattle WA 2019 - Eddie Vedder, Ohana Fest, Dana Point CA 2020- Oakland Nights 1 and 2 2020 - Ohana Fest 2021 - Ohana Fest 2022 - Oakland 1 and 2
"Watch out for music. It should come with a health warning. It can be dangerous. It can make you feel so alive, so connected to the people around you, and connected to what you really are inside. And it can make you think that the world should, and could, be a much better place. And just occasionally, it can make you very, very happy." -Peter Gabriel
What about 10C tickets ? Refund ? or is it still TM who "sells" the tickets ? and why not just cancel the shows and not leave the fans hanging since we are the last in line we have to suffer .... I have more than 1000$ worth of tickets for shows I don't know if I can attend, it doesn't seems fair. Then the band have to make the refund out of there own pockets ( I´ll think the have the money )
Burn my eyes and try to blind me
Bury me so they won't find me
Try to suck my power empty
Got no crown of thorns on me
It looks like TM is also still selling tickets to shows that the artist already announced they’re postponing. I have tickets to Mudhoney for May 7 and Mudhoney announced the spring tour will be postponed. Just checked TM and they are still selling tickets for that show 😡
I also see scattered shows being announced for the fall and I'm like who the hell is buying a ticket for anything right now?
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
Again, TM is the promoter in most cases.
Exactly. There was a recent billboard article about how Live Nation / TM is sitting on a ton of cash for all of these postponed events.
So do you think they could reasonably issue mass refunds? Hypothetically, they could be sitting on a billion dollars but if they would have to release 2-3 billion that's the rub.
I think given LN/TM's industry dominance they either have the cash or access to cheap credit. The current environment is surely terrible for their business but if there's a live event industry after this I think they'll survive. Take it with a grain of salt, but their CEO is optimistic
"We believe that Live Nation has the financial strength to weather this difficult time," said president/CEO Michael Rapino.
This was the other article I mentioned above but it now has a paywall. The gist was that they are holding the money for millions of tickets for 2020 events
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
Again, TM is the promoter in most cases.
Exactly. There was a recent billboard article about how Live Nation / TM is sitting on a ton of cash for all of these postponed events.
So do you think they could reasonably issue mass refunds? Hypothetically, they could be sitting on a billion dollars but if they would have to release 2-3 billion that's the rub.
I think given LN/TM's industry dominance they either have the cash or access to cheap credit. The current environment is surely terrible for their business but if there's a live event industry after this I think they'll survive. Take it with a grain of salt, but their CEO is optimistic
"We believe that Live Nation has the financial strength to weather this difficult time," said president/CEO Michael Rapino.
Also they likely have some insurance policies for catastrophic circumstances causing cancellations that could help cover things, though insurance companies tend to be slimier than TM so they probably have anti Covid-19 clauses they implemented after the fact.
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
Again, TM is the promoter in most cases.
Exactly. There was a recent billboard article about how Live Nation / TM is sitting on a ton of cash for all of these postponed events.
So do you think they could reasonably issue mass refunds? Hypothetically, they could be sitting on a billion dollars but if they would have to release 2-3 billion that's the rub.
I think given LN/TM's industry dominance they either have the cash or access to cheap credit. The current environment is surely terrible for their business but if there's a live event industry after this I think they'll survive. Take it with a grain of salt, but their CEO is optimistic
"We believe that Live Nation has the financial strength to weather this difficult time," said president/CEO Michael Rapino.
Also they likely have some insurance policies for catastrophic circumstances causing cancellations that could help cover things, though insurance companies tend to be slimier than TM so they probably have anti Covid-19 clauses they implemented after the fact.
My understanding is that business interruption insurance typically covers only physical damage to the business so would exclude biological events like this. I read somewhere that one carrier started marketing pandemic insurance a couple years ago but didn't sell a single policy.
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
Again, TM is the promoter in most cases.
Exactly. There was a recent billboard article about how Live Nation / TM is sitting on a ton of cash for all of these postponed events.
So do you think they could reasonably issue mass refunds? Hypothetically, they could be sitting on a billion dollars but if they would have to release 2-3 billion that's the rub.
I think given LN/TM's industry dominance they either have the cash or access to cheap credit. The current environment is surely terrible for their business but if there's a live event industry after this I think they'll survive. Take it with a grain of salt, but their CEO is optimistic
"We believe that Live Nation has the financial strength to weather this difficult time," said president/CEO Michael Rapino.
This was the other article I mentioned above but it now has a paywall. The gist was that they are holding the money for millions of tickets for 2020 events
Not that LN would release this sort of data, but you don't get a handle on what their situation would be if they offered refunds for postponed shows. It doesn't surprise me at all that they feel they can weather it if they're just sitting on that cash. There are a couple data points to consider though:
- They're sitting on 14 million tickets for postponed shows.
- They've sold an additional 30 million tickets this year. How many are shows that already went off and how many are certainly going to be postponed but it just hasn't been announced?
So we're talking 40 million tickets or so. If you say an average price of $50 that's $2 billion. I could see where putting that in play could impact their weathering ability.
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
Again, TM is the promoter in most cases.
Exactly. There was a recent billboard article about how Live Nation / TM is sitting on a ton of cash for all of these postponed events.
So do you think they could reasonably issue mass refunds? Hypothetically, they could be sitting on a billion dollars but if they would have to release 2-3 billion that's the rub.
I think given LN/TM's industry dominance they either have the cash or access to cheap credit. The current environment is surely terrible for their business but if there's a live event industry after this I think they'll survive. Take it with a grain of salt, but their CEO is optimistic
"We believe that Live Nation has the financial strength to weather this difficult time," said president/CEO Michael Rapino.
Also they likely have some insurance policies for catastrophic circumstances causing cancellations that could help cover things, though insurance companies tend to be slimier than TM so they probably have anti Covid-19 clauses they implemented after the fact.
My understanding is that business interruption insurance typically covers only physical damage to the business so would exclude biological events like this. I read somewhere that one carrier started marketing pandemic insurance a couple years ago but didn't sell a single policy.
It was recently reported that Wimbleton had taken out a 'pandemic' policy 10 or so years ago. This year they are getting paid in excess of $140 million based on the policy. They had forecast making $250 million in this year's tournament....but this certainly takes the sting out of the loss for them--plus makes them pretty happy that they had ponied up for the policy over the past 10 years.
As far as TM is concerned, I have a lot of money tied up in tickets this year (4 PJ shows, WIlco, Billie Eilish [Christmas present for my daughter-in the pit], Jason Isbell, etc.) while no money is heading back to me, I have had to conclude that it is a sunk cost--money that was paid and gone months ago. I fully anticipate that the shows will be rescheduled and have high hopes that there isn't some sort of conflict at that time. While money in my account would be welcomed, I understand the change to TM's policy. I have only seen one confirmed cancellation on my radar--the Jayhawks in Minneapolis, I believe. Otherwise, it appears that all of the bands that I am paying attention to are going to make a go of rescheduling. While not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, I can live with $1500 or so in tickets for shows that I will (probably) attend within the next year being kept by TM. By that time (maybe) they will feel like a free shows...
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
Again, TM is the promoter in most cases.
Exactly. There was a recent billboard article about how Live Nation / TM is sitting on a ton of cash for all of these postponed events.
So do you think they could reasonably issue mass refunds? Hypothetically, they could be sitting on a billion dollars but if they would have to release 2-3 billion that's the rub.
I think given LN/TM's industry dominance they either have the cash or access to cheap credit. The current environment is surely terrible for their business but if there's a live event industry after this I think they'll survive. Take it with a grain of salt, but their CEO is optimistic
"We believe that Live Nation has the financial strength to weather this difficult time," said president/CEO Michael Rapino.
Also they likely have some insurance policies for catastrophic circumstances causing cancellations that could help cover things, though insurance companies tend to be slimier than TM so they probably have anti Covid-19 clauses they implemented after the fact.
My understanding is that business interruption insurance typically covers only physical damage to the business so would exclude biological events like this. I read somewhere that one carrier started marketing pandemic insurance a couple years ago but didn't sell a single policy.
It was recently reported that Wimbleton had taken out a 'pandemic' policy 10 or so years ago. This year they are getting paid in excess of $140 million based on the policy. They had forecast making $250 million in this year's tournament....but this certainly takes the sting out of the loss for them--plus makes them pretty happy that they had ponied up for the policy over the past 10 years.
As far as TM is concerned, I have a lot of money tied up in tickets this year (4 PJ shows, WIlco, Billie Eilish [Christmas present for my daughter-in the pit], Jason Isbell, etc.) while no money is heading back to me, I have had to conclude that it is a sunk cost--money that was paid and gone months ago. I fully anticipate that the shows will be rescheduled and have high hopes that there isn't some sort of conflict at that time. While money in my account would be welcomed, I understand the change to TM's policy. I have only seen one confirmed cancellation on my radar--the Jayhawks in Minneapolis, I believe. Otherwise, it appears that all of the bands that I am paying attention to are going to make a go of rescheduling. While not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, I can live with $1500 or so in tickets for shows that I will (probably) attend within the next year being kept by TM. By that time (maybe) they will feel like a free shows...
I think it's acceptable to not provide refunds for a postponed event that will be rescheduled, but only up to a point. When a concert that was supposed to be held in Spring 2020 can't be rescheduled until Fall 2021 (as some have predicted), it becomes unreasonable not to allow people to get their money back. No one could have anticipated that possibility when the tickets were originally sold; the buyer should have the option to cancel the sale instead of having to wait 18 months.
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
Again, TM is the promoter in most cases.
Exactly. There was a recent billboard article about how Live Nation / TM is sitting on a ton of cash for all of these postponed events.
So do you think they could reasonably issue mass refunds? Hypothetically, they could be sitting on a billion dollars but if they would have to release 2-3 billion that's the rub.
I think given LN/TM's industry dominance they either have the cash or access to cheap credit. The current environment is surely terrible for their business but if there's a live event industry after this I think they'll survive. Take it with a grain of salt, but their CEO is optimistic
"We believe that Live Nation has the financial strength to weather this difficult time," said president/CEO Michael Rapino.
This was the other article I mentioned above but it now has a paywall. The gist was that they are holding the money for millions of tickets for 2020 events
Not that LN would release this sort of data, but you don't get a handle on what their situation would be if they offered refunds for postponed shows. It doesn't surprise me at all that they feel they can weather it if they're just sitting on that cash. There are a couple data points to consider though:
- They're sitting on 14 million tickets for postponed shows.
- They've sold an additional 30 million tickets this year. How many are shows that already went off and how many are certainly going to be postponed but it just hasn't been announced?
So we're talking 40 million tickets or so. If you say an average price of $50 that's $2 billion. I could see where putting that in play could impact their weathering ability.
The article states that they have $3.8 billion in cash and cash equivalents, $2 billion of which is event-related deferred revenue. Of fans that have been offered refunds for rescheduled shows only 5% to 20% have requested refunds, with the rest opting to hold onto their tickets. If those trends hold, "the company does not expect material declines in its event-related deferred revenue balances," i.e., the $2 billion. But as more and more consumers suffer financial distress, presumably those numbers would go up.
TM doesn’t keep the ticket money for events, just their fee. So, they literally don’t have the money to refund; the event promoters have the money, who probably don’t mind earning the interest on ticket sales for the months that will be holding that money.
Again, TM is the promoter in most cases.
Exactly. There was a recent billboard article about how Live Nation / TM is sitting on a ton of cash for all of these postponed events.
So do you think they could reasonably issue mass refunds? Hypothetically, they could be sitting on a billion dollars but if they would have to release 2-3 billion that's the rub.
I think given LN/TM's industry dominance they either have the cash or access to cheap credit. The current environment is surely terrible for their business but if there's a live event industry after this I think they'll survive. Take it with a grain of salt, but their CEO is optimistic
"We believe that Live Nation has the financial strength to weather this difficult time," said president/CEO Michael Rapino.
This was the other article I mentioned above but it now has a paywall. The gist was that they are holding the money for millions of tickets for 2020 events
Not that LN would release this sort of data, but you don't get a handle on what their situation would be if they offered refunds for postponed shows. It doesn't surprise me at all that they feel they can weather it if they're just sitting on that cash. There are a couple data points to consider though:
- They're sitting on 14 million tickets for postponed shows.
- They've sold an additional 30 million tickets this year. How many are shows that already went off and how many are certainly going to be postponed but it just hasn't been announced?
So we're talking 40 million tickets or so. If you say an average price of $50 that's $2 billion. I could see where putting that in play could impact their weathering ability.
The article states that they have $3.8 billion in cash and cash equivalents, $2 billion of which is event-related deferred revenue. Of fans that have been offered refunds for rescheduled shows only 5% to 20% have requested refunds, with the rest opting to hold onto their tickets. If those trends hold, "the company does not expect material declines in its event-related deferred revenue balances," i.e., the $2 billion. But as more and more consumers suffer financial distress, presumably those numbers would go up.
Yeah, I wasn't sure what goes into the "event-related deferred revenue" bucket. Cost of the ticket, fees, whatever has or hasn't been disbursed to artists and vendors. I have no clue how the cash flows. I agree that as this drags on, the call for refunds will get louder.
Withholding refunds is disgusting but at least in that instance the customer still has a ticket. Withholding F2F payouts is unconscionable. The seller has neither a ticket nor their money. That is completely outrageous.
PJ: 2013: London (ON); Buffalo; 2014: Cincinnati; 2016: Sunrise, Miami, Toronto 1-2, Wrigley 2; 2018: London (UK) 1, Milan, Padova, Sea 2, Wrigley 1-2, Fenway 1-2; 2021: SHN, Ohana, Ohana Encore 1-2; 2022: LA 1-2, Phx, Oak 1-2, Fresno, Copenhagen, Hyde Park 1-2; Quebec, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto; MSG, Camden, Nashville, Louisville, St. Louis, OKC; 2023: St. Paul 1-2, Chicago 1-2; Fort Worth 2; Austin 1-2; 2024: Vancouver 1-2, LV 1-2, LA 1-2, Napa, Barcelona 1-2
EV Solo: 2017 Louisville and Franklin, 2018 Ohana, 2019 Innings Fest, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Dublin and Ohana; 2021 Ohana Friday (from beach) and Saturday; 2022 Earthlings Newark; 2023 Innings Fest and Benoraya 1-2.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
Withholding refunds is disgusting but at least in that instance the customer still has a ticket. Withholding F2F payouts is unconscionable. The seller has neither a ticket nor their money. That is completely outrageous.
I agree. The double dipping they are doing in F2F payout cases is literally criminal.
Withholding refunds is disgusting but at least in that instance the customer still has a ticket. Withholding F2F payouts is unconscionable. The seller has neither a ticket nor their money. That is completely outrageous.
I know! Right? The money for my OAK Night 2 F2F tickets was immediately withdrawn from my account, so that whole excuse of TM saying they're holding onto the funds in case the buyer of the resold ticket wants a refund is pure BS. Once the transaction was completed, the seller should have been immediately reimbursed and out of the picture...I mean how hard is it to move money electronically?? We live in this digital age where we can send a text that's immediately received or transfer money from one bank account to another instantly, yet when you're trying to get your money back from a BIG corporation, for some mysterious reason it always take 3-5 business days (or in this case, longer) to receive a refund for an online transaction. It's mind boggling I tell you!
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But, I actually don’t know how any of ticket sales works; I’m just assuming, so if any one has that knowledge, feel free to correct me. I like learning!
1994 - Bridge School Benefit, Shoreline Mountain View CA
*** 1995 - 2015 High School, College, Broke, Having Kids***
2016 - Temple of the Dog, Bill Graham Civic Center Auditorium, San Francisco CA
2017 - Eddie Vedder, Bourbon and Beyond, Louisville KY
2018 - The Home Shows, Show 2, Seattle WA
2019 - Eddie Vedder, Ohana Fest, Dana Point CA
2020- Oakland Nights 1 and 2
2020 - Ohana Fest
2021 - Ohana Fest
2022 - Oakland 1 and 2
"Watch out for music. It should come with a health warning. It can be dangerous. It can make you feel so alive, so connected to the people around you, and connected to what you really are inside. And it can make you think that the world should, and could, be a much better place. And just occasionally, it can make you very, very happy." -Peter Gabriel
Then the band have to make the refund out of there own pockets ( I´ll think the have the money )
Bury me so they won't find me
Try to suck my power empty
Got no crown of thorns on me
Take it with a grain of salt, but their CEO is optimistic
"We believe that Live Nation has the financial strength to weather this difficult time," said president/CEO Michael Rapino.
https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/9356898/live-nation-cost-cutting-coronavirus-rapino-salariesThis was the other article I mentioned above but it now has a paywall. The gist was that they are holding the money for millions of tickets for 2020 events
https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/9342389/coronavirus-touring-concert-business-billboard-cover-story-2020
- They're sitting on 14 million tickets for postponed shows.
- They've sold an additional 30 million tickets this year. How many are shows that already went off and how many are certainly going to be postponed but it just hasn't been announced?
So we're talking 40 million tickets or so. If you say an average price of $50 that's $2 billion. I could see where putting that in play could impact their weathering ability.
As far as TM is concerned, I have a lot of money tied up in tickets this year (4 PJ shows, WIlco, Billie Eilish [Christmas present for my daughter-in the pit], Jason Isbell, etc.) while no money is heading back to me, I have had to conclude that it is a sunk cost--money that was paid and gone months ago. I fully anticipate that the shows will be rescheduled and have high hopes that there isn't some sort of conflict at that time. While money in my account would be welcomed, I understand the change to TM's policy. I have only seen one confirmed cancellation on my radar--the Jayhawks in Minneapolis, I believe. Otherwise, it appears that all of the bands that I am paying attention to are going to make a go of rescheduling. While not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, I can live with $1500 or so in tickets for shows that I will (probably) attend within the next year being kept by TM. By that time (maybe) they will feel like a free shows...
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023