Biden vs Trump 2020 - vote now and discuss!
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BidenBiden has been underestimated for a long time. First, Obama made the choice to give his support to Hillary Clinton over Biden as his successor. (Biden did not ultimately run in 2016, mostly due to the death of his son, but Obama's decision was also a factor.) In the 2020 Democratic primaries, Biden was written off as old and out of touch with the imagined progressive base of the party. After Iowa and New Hampshire, he was written off. Then he won the nomination going away because he was always the best candidate and was always the candidate who was most in synch with the actual Democratic base, which is not progressives on Twitter. Then he beat Trump easily in the general election. He's still the only person to beat Trump (other than in individual state primaries or caucuses).
I'm not stating a position here on whether Biden should stay in the race or not. I'm just pointing out that, from his perspective and the perspective of his closest advisors, this is surely part of the analysis.
The contrast between Democrats wetting the bed over a bad debate performance and Republicans not even blinking when their guy foments an insurrection, refuses to concede the election, and gets convicted of 34 felony counts-- and rambles incoherently and lies throughout the same debate that Biden tanked-- is striking.I gather speed from you fucking with me.0 -
Biden
While I agree it is striking, we are not in a cult of personality. The politics of this country have shifted over the past 20 years where the professional class has migrated to the D side of the ledger, and we value competency, intelligence, and stability. So while the R base may be happy to embrace the most radical and ugly underbelly of our nation, I can say that isn't the model for our party. There are deal breakers for my support of Biden. I don't mean to say that I won't vote for him or stay home instead, I'm not a fool. But while we are in a period where we can make a change, I think we should.BF25394 said:Biden has been underestimated for a long time. First, Obama made the choice to give his support to Hillary Clinton over Biden as his successor. (Biden did not ultimately run in 2016, mostly due to the death of his son, but Obama's decision was also a factor.) In the 2020 Democratic primaries, Biden was written off as old and out of touch with the imagined progressive base of the party. After Iowa and New Hampshire, he was written off. Then he won the nomination going away because he was always the best candidate and was always the candidate who was most in synch with the actual Democratic base, which is not progressives on Twitter. Then he beat Trump easily in the general election. He's still the only person to beat Trump (other than in individual state primaries or caucuses).
I'm not stating a position here on whether Biden should stay in the race or not. I'm just pointing out that, from his perspective and the perspective of his closest advisors, this is surely part of the analysis.
The contrast between Democrats wetting the bed over a bad debate performance and Republicans not even blinking when their guy foments an insurrection, refuses to concede the election, and gets convicted of 34 felony counts-- and rambles incoherently and lies throughout the same debate that Biden tanked-- is striking.
And the difference between 2020 and today is the reason people wrote him off. It wasn't about Joe being too old in 2020. Hell, Bernie is just as old. People thought the party was to the left of Biden and he didn't bring enough change. He showed himself to be energetic and sharp in the primaries and debates. That's not the case today. What we learned is that the voting block of the D party was truly center-left. That's why he won. But that's not the challenge that Biden is facing today.0 -
I'm sitting this one out"Bad debate performance" is misinformation. He didn't say anything controversial or lose key points to the other candidate or whatever. He displayed dementia or something similar for a sustained period on national television.0
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This is interesting….its like the dems perfect dream.Gern Blansten said:
I was brainstorming a situation where Harris steps out to run for CA Gov, Newsome gets added as VP, then Biden steps down and Newsome is the guy. Then add Buttigieg as VP.mrussel1 said:
Here's the problem. If I am Newsome, I probably don't put my hat in the ring unless I inherit the entire Biden-Harris campaign apparatus. Think about it, a modern campaign needs months to set up field offices, fundraising, grass root efforts, etc. If he enters the campaign in August at the convention, he will be way behind Trump in organization. And if he loses, that's it. He's done. It would be very unusual for someone to lose a national election and run again. Only Trump and Nixon have done it that I can think of.cblock4life said:
I as well. I do think he would win if Biden would step away. I think 75% of the people want something else, someone else, no matter who it is…..mrussel1 said:
I'd like to see Gavingimmesometruth27 said:
everyone on here was calling for gavin. he's a white dude. nobody calling for any of the others you listed. about the same number calling for sanders and warren. none.pjl44 said:
I honestly have no idea. If you were certain they would though couldn't you just go to Klobuchar, Jefferies, Booker, whomever? No one says it has to be a white guy.gimmesometruth27 said:
you think they would accept harris being replaced by a white man? i seriously doubt some of them will, but you we are both entitled to our opinions.pjl44 said:
You said "you people are crazy to think for one second that african americans and women will just overlook biden replacing harris with another white man" when black voters preferred a "white man" first and second last time there was a primary option. Unless you have something that shows otherwise, you're just making things up.gimmesometruth27 said:
so can we speculate that this does not hold true in 2024? you know, since harris was on the ticket that was elected and is currently in office?pjl44 said:
That's from the 2020 Dem. primary cyclegimmesometruth27 said:
how recent was that poll? sanders is not even in the conversation the last 3 years. nor is warren.pjl44 said:
The soft racism of assumptions about black votersgimmesometruth27 said:ok, who does biden need to win?
african americans, and women.
you people are crazy to think for one second that african americans and women will just overlook biden replacing harris with another white man. it isn't going to happen. biden and harris is the ticket. harris has been the vp for 4 years already, which makes her more qualified than anybody else right now.
also, why the fuck are people not calling for trump to drop out? you know, convicted felon, wholly unfit for office, russian asset, anti american, etc, etc.
it can be implied that some african american and women voters may sit out out of spite if she is replaced. can't risk that happening at this point.
i think it would be a stupid move, but typical of elected democrats. most of them are scared of their own shadow and do not have the guts for what this moment requires.
By contrast, Harris would inherit the Biden-Harris campaign cash and the ground troops. She would have a huge advantage over Newsome in that respect.
That's probably not going to happen. It's like one of those puzzles where you move squares around to make a picture.We aren’t going to do anything about this. They (Washington) won’t do anything. Are we going to see the fall of the United States? Since trump lost there’s been a “watcher” at where I vote. It’s disturbing. Will there come a day when we are forced to vote for trump? You’re all younger, still have obligations so it’s a lot to think about. Because I know violence isn’t allowed I’ll just say that if that time comes I’m not going down without a fight or I’ll leave. The option to stay ins’t negotiable.0 -
I agree wholeheartedly with this. It’s like evil vs good and the bad guys have no morals. Mind boggling. It’s time to play dirty. Do the dems even know how? I read it somewhere on here Biden should declare himself king and hand the crown over.BF25394 said:Biden has been underestimated for a long time. First, Obama made the choice to give his support to Hillary Clinton over Biden as his successor. (Biden did not ultimately run in 2016, mostly due to the death of his son, but Obama's decision was also a factor.) In the 2020 Democratic primaries, Biden was written off as old and out of touch with the imagined progressive base of the party. After Iowa and New Hampshire, he was written off. Then he won the nomination going away because he was always the best candidate and was always the candidate who was most in synch with the actual Democratic base, which is not progressives on Twitter. Then he beat Trump easily in the general election. He's still the only person to beat Trump (other than in individual state primaries or caucuses).
I'm not stating a position here on whether Biden should stay in the race or not. I'm just pointing out that, from his perspective and the perspective of his closest advisors, this is surely part of the analysis.
The contrast between Democrats wetting the bed over a bad debate performance and Republicans not even blinking when their guy foments an insurrection, refuses to concede the election, and gets convicted of 34 felony counts-- and rambles incoherently and lies throughout the same debate that Biden tanked-- is striking.0 -
BidenFiveBelow said:
Wouldn’t it be nice to have more than two legitimate options? Feeling forced into a decision with so much at stake doesn’t feel very democratic to me.brianlux said:FiveBelow said:
Then his attempt to appeal to those you say he most closely aligns with could not have been a bigger failure. Staunch democrats are the only reason his approval rating has a pulse, and this has nothing to do with the great democrat awakening that’s taken place over the last few days.Go Beavers said:
Biden’s pretty much at the center.FiveBelow said:Let’s be honest. At 81 years old, in his current condition, Biden believes he is the best person to run the country. Narcissism and politics go hand in hand, including those who participate in the day to day back and forth. Psychology has known this for years. Our system is nothing more than a two-party duopoly at best, far from a true democracy. These guys are better suited to be Walmart door greeters, yet one of them will be running the country…again. I for one hope the political shit show that has been the last 8 years paves a path for Independent candidates to participate on an even playing field. For me, that is the first step in achieving a true democracy. Until then, I guess one of these two groups will be the only ones truly excited about the outcome. Sad.
I don't believe most of us who support Biden are big fans. We support Biden because... you know the rest.
I’m talking about the correlation between politics and narcissism. Believing you’re the best option to run the country vs believing you could still lace up the old sneakers and get in the game are completely different, imo.HughFreakingDillon said:
it's not just politicians. most people believe they can still do what they used to do when they were younger. This type of thing isn't unique to politics.FiveBelow said:Let’s be honest. At 81 years old, in his current condition, Biden believes he is the best person to run the country. Narcissism and politics go hand in hand, including those who participate in the day to day back and forth. Psychology has known this for years. Our system is nothing more than a two-party duopoly at best, far from a true democracy. These guys are better suited to be Walmart door greeters, yet one of them will be running the country…again. I for one hope the political shit show that has been the last 8 years paves a path for Independent candidates to participate on an even playing field. For me, that is the first step in achieving a true democracy. Until then, I guess one of these two groups will be the only ones truly excited about the outcome. Sad."Wouldn’t it be nice to have more than two legitimate options? Feeling forced into a decision with so much at stake doesn’t feel very democratic to me. "100%, Five! I've talked here before about supporting the idea of having strong alternate parties to the simple two-party system, but it did not fly well at all!
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
BidenThis could get interesting. Gifted article (see link for full article)
Biden Told Ally That He Is Weighing Whether to Continue in the Race
The president’s conversation is the first indication that he is seriously considering whether he can recover after a devastating performance on the debate stage in Atlanta. A White House official said the claim was false.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
I'm sitting this one out
With allies like that.....!brianlux said:This could get interesting. Gifted article (see link for full article)Biden Told Ally That He Is Weighing Whether to Continue in the Race
The president’s conversation is the first indication that he is seriously considering whether he can recover after a devastating performance on the debate stage in Atlanta. A White House official said the claim was false.
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I'm sitting this one out
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Bidenpjl44 said:
With allies like that.....!brianlux said:This could get interesting. Gifted article (see link for full article)Biden Told Ally That He Is Weighing Whether to Continue in the Race
The president’s conversation is the first indication that he is seriously considering whether he can recover after a devastating performance on the debate stage in Atlanta. A White House official said the claim was false.
Not sure what you mean.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Biden
CNN had a similarly distressing (for Biden, not for me) poll today. I think the momentum will start building and key allies will start pressuring him to pull back. LBJ did the same thing in 68, albeit much earlier. RFK would have won that election in a landslide. I'm not sure how much history was changed when JFK was killed, but I believe the murder of RFK really changed our path, for the worse.pjl44 said:0 -
I'm sitting this one out
He told someone this presumably in confidence and they ran to the NYTbrianlux said:pjl44 said:
With allies like that.....!brianlux said:This could get interesting. Gifted article (see link for full article)Biden Told Ally That He Is Weighing Whether to Continue in the Race
The president’s conversation is the first indication that he is seriously considering whether he can recover after a devastating performance on the debate stage in Atlanta. A White House official said the claim was false.
Not sure what you mean.0 -
Biden
Well, of course I defer to Dr. pjl44's diagnosis.pjl44 said:"Bad debate performance" is misinformation. He didn't say anything controversial or lose key points to the other candidate or whatever. He displayed dementia or something similar for a sustained period on national television.I gather speed from you fucking with me.0 -
Biden
You want to work to create viable parties as alternatives to the Democrats and Republicans? Knock yourself out. But there are only two candidates that can win the presidency in 2024, the one with the R next to their name and the one with the D next to their name. So work for change to the system, sure, but, in the meantime, a vote for anyone other than the D or the R is effectively a vote for the candidate among the D and R that you least prefer.brianlux said:FiveBelow said:
Wouldn’t it be nice to have more than two legitimate options? Feeling forced into a decision with so much at stake doesn’t feel very democratic to me.brianlux said:FiveBelow said:
Then his attempt to appeal to those you say he most closely aligns with could not have been a bigger failure. Staunch democrats are the only reason his approval rating has a pulse, and this has nothing to do with the great democrat awakening that’s taken place over the last few days.Go Beavers said:
Biden’s pretty much at the center.FiveBelow said:Let’s be honest. At 81 years old, in his current condition, Biden believes he is the best person to run the country. Narcissism and politics go hand in hand, including those who participate in the day to day back and forth. Psychology has known this for years. Our system is nothing more than a two-party duopoly at best, far from a true democracy. These guys are better suited to be Walmart door greeters, yet one of them will be running the country…again. I for one hope the political shit show that has been the last 8 years paves a path for Independent candidates to participate on an even playing field. For me, that is the first step in achieving a true democracy. Until then, I guess one of these two groups will be the only ones truly excited about the outcome. Sad.
I don't believe most of us who support Biden are big fans. We support Biden because... you know the rest.
I’m talking about the correlation between politics and narcissism. Believing you’re the best option to run the country vs believing you could still lace up the old sneakers and get in the game are completely different, imo.HughFreakingDillon said:
it's not just politicians. most people believe they can still do what they used to do when they were younger. This type of thing isn't unique to politics.FiveBelow said:Let’s be honest. At 81 years old, in his current condition, Biden believes he is the best person to run the country. Narcissism and politics go hand in hand, including those who participate in the day to day back and forth. Psychology has known this for years. Our system is nothing more than a two-party duopoly at best, far from a true democracy. These guys are better suited to be Walmart door greeters, yet one of them will be running the country…again. I for one hope the political shit show that has been the last 8 years paves a path for Independent candidates to participate on an even playing field. For me, that is the first step in achieving a true democracy. Until then, I guess one of these two groups will be the only ones truly excited about the outcome. Sad."Wouldn’t it be nice to have more than two legitimate options? Feeling forced into a decision with so much at stake doesn’t feel very democratic to me. "100%, Five! I've talked here before about supporting the idea of having strong alternate parties to the simple two-party system, but it did not fly well at all!
And for those who think the D and R candidates are both bad choices, by definition, one of them must be "least worst." Vote for that person.I gather speed from you fucking with me.0 -
I'm sitting this one out
I may not know how to code it but it's not as ridiculous as still trying to euphemize itBF25394 said:
Well, of course I defer to Dr. pjl44's diagnosis.pjl44 said:"Bad debate performance" is misinformation. He didn't say anything controversial or lose key points to the other candidate or whatever. He displayed dementia or something similar for a sustained period on national television.0 -
Biden
The third party is a pipe dream, it will never happen considering you need 538 EVs. If we had a viable third party, every presidential election would land in the House. We would become a parliamentary system.BF25394 said:
You want to work to create viable parties as alternatives to the Democrats and Republicans? Knock yourself out. But there are only two candidates that can win the presidency in 2024, the one with the R next to their name and the one with the D next to their name. So work for change to the system, sure, but, in the meantime, a vote for anyone other than the D or the R is effectively a vote for the candidate among the D and R that you least prefer.brianlux said:FiveBelow said:
Wouldn’t it be nice to have more than two legitimate options? Feeling forced into a decision with so much at stake doesn’t feel very democratic to me.brianlux said:FiveBelow said:
Then his attempt to appeal to those you say he most closely aligns with could not have been a bigger failure. Staunch democrats are the only reason his approval rating has a pulse, and this has nothing to do with the great democrat awakening that’s taken place over the last few days.Go Beavers said:
Biden’s pretty much at the center.FiveBelow said:Let’s be honest. At 81 years old, in his current condition, Biden believes he is the best person to run the country. Narcissism and politics go hand in hand, including those who participate in the day to day back and forth. Psychology has known this for years. Our system is nothing more than a two-party duopoly at best, far from a true democracy. These guys are better suited to be Walmart door greeters, yet one of them will be running the country…again. I for one hope the political shit show that has been the last 8 years paves a path for Independent candidates to participate on an even playing field. For me, that is the first step in achieving a true democracy. Until then, I guess one of these two groups will be the only ones truly excited about the outcome. Sad.
I don't believe most of us who support Biden are big fans. We support Biden because... you know the rest.
I’m talking about the correlation between politics and narcissism. Believing you’re the best option to run the country vs believing you could still lace up the old sneakers and get in the game are completely different, imo.HughFreakingDillon said:
it's not just politicians. most people believe they can still do what they used to do when they were younger. This type of thing isn't unique to politics.FiveBelow said:Let’s be honest. At 81 years old, in his current condition, Biden believes he is the best person to run the country. Narcissism and politics go hand in hand, including those who participate in the day to day back and forth. Psychology has known this for years. Our system is nothing more than a two-party duopoly at best, far from a true democracy. These guys are better suited to be Walmart door greeters, yet one of them will be running the country…again. I for one hope the political shit show that has been the last 8 years paves a path for Independent candidates to participate on an even playing field. For me, that is the first step in achieving a true democracy. Until then, I guess one of these two groups will be the only ones truly excited about the outcome. Sad."Wouldn’t it be nice to have more than two legitimate options? Feeling forced into a decision with so much at stake doesn’t feel very democratic to me. "100%, Five! I've talked here before about supporting the idea of having strong alternate parties to the simple two-party system, but it did not fly well at all!
And for those who think the D and R candidates are both bad choices, by definition, one of them must be "least worst." Vote for that person.0 -
That's where I'm at too(Biden will have better/good people to work with as apposed to Trump who will have a bunch of Lackey's and Kiss asses).Gern Blansten said:
That's the kicker. I'm surprised by polling that still shows Biden doing better against tRump than Harris or Newsome.OnWis97 said:It's all a disaster. Everything being said about Biden is true. He's old, he's tired, and just because he can sometimes come across well, doesn't mean the debate performance isn't just as likely to come out at any given time. The "3AM emergency scenario," for example. He's flat out not fit to be president. Trump is nearly as old but not as close to senile. In terms of physical and mental abilities, he's more fit. However, in terms of his complete disregard for the people he's supposed to be serving, his narcissism, his likely devotion to the leader of another country, his (realistic) desire to be a dictator, and the potential of his actions to destroy the republic, I cannot vote for him. The question is can I vote for Biden? Honestly, if I was certain the country I know and love could come out of this intact four years from now, I'd vote third. But I'm not. So here's my rationale: I'm voting for an administration.
Remember, we love that America doesn't have a dictator (for now). Joe won't be one and he'll be surrounded by far better people than Trump is.
I'm not sure I believe that but it's interesting.0 -
She messed up school lunches forever!cincybearcat said:
Honestly - if the Dems want to be sure to win this election you need Biden to drop out and Michelle to take his place at the top of the ticket. You can keep Harris if you feel you need to in order to keep the campaign structure and $. A Michelle/Kamala ticket would be quite interesting and I'd be very interested to know of it works or she needs to add more diversity to her ticket.mrussel1 said:
Certainly for Newsome, it's a recognition issue. There was a recent poll but Reuters just released that only has Michelle Obama beating Trump. And she thumps him 50-39.Gern Blansten said:
That's the kicker. I'm surprised by polling that still shows Biden doing better against tRump than Harris or Newsome.OnWis97 said:It's all a disaster. Everything being said about Biden is true. He's old, he's tired, and just because he can sometimes come across well, doesn't mean the debate performance isn't just as likely to come out at any given time. The "3AM emergency scenario," for example. He's flat out not fit to be president. Trump is nearly as old but not as close to senile. In terms of physical and mental abilities, he's more fit. However, in terms of his complete disregard for the people he's supposed to be serving, his narcissism, his likely devotion to the leader of another country, his (realistic) desire to be a dictator, and the potential of his actions to destroy the republic, I cannot vote for him. The question is can I vote for Biden? Honestly, if I was certain the country I know and love could come out of this intact four years from now, I'd vote third. But I'm not. So here's my rationale: I'm voting for an administration.
Remember, we love that America doesn't have a dictator (for now). Joe won't be one and he'll be surrounded by far better people than Trump is.
I'm not sure I believe that but it's interesting.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4753294-michelle-obama-donald-trump-joe-biden-democrat-2024-hypothetical-matchup-survey/
But I do not believe that will happen. So it's diminished Joe vs insane Donald. What an election.0 -
Biden
Nothing says freedom like a 10 year old with 8 hour access to Mountain Dew.mace1229 said:
She messed up school lunches forever!cincybearcat said:
Honestly - if the Dems want to be sure to win this election you need Biden to drop out and Michelle to take his place at the top of the ticket. You can keep Harris if you feel you need to in order to keep the campaign structure and $. A Michelle/Kamala ticket would be quite interesting and I'd be very interested to know of it works or she needs to add more diversity to her ticket.mrussel1 said:
Certainly for Newsome, it's a recognition issue. There was a recent poll but Reuters just released that only has Michelle Obama beating Trump. And she thumps him 50-39.Gern Blansten said:
That's the kicker. I'm surprised by polling that still shows Biden doing better against tRump than Harris or Newsome.OnWis97 said:It's all a disaster. Everything being said about Biden is true. He's old, he's tired, and just because he can sometimes come across well, doesn't mean the debate performance isn't just as likely to come out at any given time. The "3AM emergency scenario," for example. He's flat out not fit to be president. Trump is nearly as old but not as close to senile. In terms of physical and mental abilities, he's more fit. However, in terms of his complete disregard for the people he's supposed to be serving, his narcissism, his likely devotion to the leader of another country, his (realistic) desire to be a dictator, and the potential of his actions to destroy the republic, I cannot vote for him. The question is can I vote for Biden? Honestly, if I was certain the country I know and love could come out of this intact four years from now, I'd vote third. But I'm not. So here's my rationale: I'm voting for an administration.
Remember, we love that America doesn't have a dictator (for now). Joe won't be one and he'll be surrounded by far better people than Trump is.
I'm not sure I believe that but it's interesting.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4753294-michelle-obama-donald-trump-joe-biden-democrat-2024-hypothetical-matchup-survey/
But I do not believe that will happen. So it's diminished Joe vs insane Donald. What an election.0 -
I remember one year in high school coke was promoting a new drink. So they brought in a new vending machine with just that drink and it was only 10 cents. We were drinking like 3 or 4 a day. Can’t remember what the drink was because it never took off and after a month or two they took the machine out. But it was awesome while it lasted.mrussel1 said:
Nothing says freedom like a 10 year old with 8 hour access to Mountain Dew.mace1229 said:
She messed up school lunches forever!cincybearcat said:
Honestly - if the Dems want to be sure to win this election you need Biden to drop out and Michelle to take his place at the top of the ticket. You can keep Harris if you feel you need to in order to keep the campaign structure and $. A Michelle/Kamala ticket would be quite interesting and I'd be very interested to know of it works or she needs to add more diversity to her ticket.mrussel1 said:
Certainly for Newsome, it's a recognition issue. There was a recent poll but Reuters just released that only has Michelle Obama beating Trump. And she thumps him 50-39.Gern Blansten said:
That's the kicker. I'm surprised by polling that still shows Biden doing better against tRump than Harris or Newsome.OnWis97 said:It's all a disaster. Everything being said about Biden is true. He's old, he's tired, and just because he can sometimes come across well, doesn't mean the debate performance isn't just as likely to come out at any given time. The "3AM emergency scenario," for example. He's flat out not fit to be president. Trump is nearly as old but not as close to senile. In terms of physical and mental abilities, he's more fit. However, in terms of his complete disregard for the people he's supposed to be serving, his narcissism, his likely devotion to the leader of another country, his (realistic) desire to be a dictator, and the potential of his actions to destroy the republic, I cannot vote for him. The question is can I vote for Biden? Honestly, if I was certain the country I know and love could come out of this intact four years from now, I'd vote third. But I'm not. So here's my rationale: I'm voting for an administration.
Remember, we love that America doesn't have a dictator (for now). Joe won't be one and he'll be surrounded by far better people than Trump is.
I'm not sure I believe that but it's interesting.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4753294-michelle-obama-donald-trump-joe-biden-democrat-2024-hypothetical-matchup-survey/
But I do not believe that will happen. So it's diminished Joe vs insane Donald. What an election.0
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