I really don’t get this, if I sold my tickets then they should pay me and I’m done. If the other buyer wants a refund then TM refunds them. Why would they charge me if the other buyer wants a refund?
I really don’t get this, if I sold my tickets then they should pay me and I’m done. If the other buyer wants a refund then TM refunds them. Why would they charge me if the other buyer wants a refund?
Because TM is just the platform. The sale was between you and the buyer.
So if you say you don't object to them charging you if the buyer wants a refund they should release the funds promptly, right?
Yes, and moreover, those were the terms and conditions agreed to when listing the ticket for sale. Ridiculous though it may be, the agreement was TM pays the seller within 7-10 days of the sale, and if for some reason the buyer was entitled to and decided to get a refund, the seller’s card would be charged by TM to reimburse the buyer, the ticket would revert to seller, and then the seller would have the option to use the ticket, sell it to someone else, or refund the original purchase. TM has unilaterally changed the bargain. I don’t think they should be able to do that. If you consider one ticket that I sold, first I bought it, so TM has that money, and then I sold it, and TM has that money too. The buyer and I have each paid TM for the same ticket but there’s only one ticket. TM cannot be entitled to hold both payments.
PJ: 2013: London (ON); Buffalo; 2014: Cincinnati; 2016: Sunrise, Miami, Toronto 1-2, Wrigley 2; 2018: London (UK) 1, Milan, Padova, Sea 2, Wrigley 1-2, Fenway 1-2; 2021: SHN, Ohana, Ohana Encore 1-2; 2022: LA 1-2, Phx, Oak 1-2, Fresno, Copenhagen, Hyde Park 1-2; Quebec, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto; MSG, Camden, Nashville, Louisville, St. Louis, OKC; 2023: St. Paul 1-2, Chicago 1-2; Fort Worth 2; Austin 1-2; 2024: Vancouver 1-2, LV 1-2, LA 1-2, Napa, Barcelona 1-2
EV Solo: 2017 Louisville and Franklin, 2018 Ohana, 2019 Innings Fest, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Dublin and Ohana; 2021 Ohana Friday (from beach) and Saturday; 2022 Earthlings Newark; 2023 Innings Fest and Benoraya 1-2.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
If they want to change the payment terms, they can do that for new sales made after they make that change. Not for sales that were made under the original rules. My 2 cents.
Also, Stubhub is a slightly different case. They aren’t already holding the money from the original purchase. And with resale prices not being limited to face value there’s probably more risk that the seller will not be able to refund the buyer due to the seller’s finances down the road.
But regardless of whether StubHub is different or not, what TM is doing is disgraceful.
At the very least, they should do these three things, which is not to say this would justify the unilateral policy change.
1. Deposit the funds into a trust account, like lawyers do, to segregate the funds from their general finances. They are holding these funds on behalf of the seller. Or the buyer in case of a refund.
2. Whatever interest is earned on the trust deposits is paid to the sellers or buyers.
3. Formally waive the requirement that the seller’s card fund buyer refunds.
Unless they do #3, the rest is irrelevant anyway.
PJ: 2013: London (ON); Buffalo; 2014: Cincinnati; 2016: Sunrise, Miami, Toronto 1-2, Wrigley 2; 2018: London (UK) 1, Milan, Padova, Sea 2, Wrigley 1-2, Fenway 1-2; 2021: SHN, Ohana, Ohana Encore 1-2; 2022: LA 1-2, Phx, Oak 1-2, Fresno, Copenhagen, Hyde Park 1-2; Quebec, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto; MSG, Camden, Nashville, Louisville, St. Louis, OKC; 2023: St. Paul 1-2, Chicago 1-2; Fort Worth 2; Austin 1-2; 2024: Vancouver 1-2, LV 1-2, LA 1-2, Napa, Barcelona 1-2
EV Solo: 2017 Louisville and Franklin, 2018 Ohana, 2019 Innings Fest, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Dublin and Ohana; 2021 Ohana Friday (from beach) and Saturday; 2022 Earthlings Newark; 2023 Innings Fest and Benoraya 1-2.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
StubHub apparently is doing the same thing. Complete BS
So, this is going to suck for some (like you @shza) that are waiting for funds from several F2F sales. It's highly likely that some or all of these dates wont take place until 2021.
That's bullshit if they hold our money that long. A lot of things way more important going on right now, but this just adds to that.
StubHub apparently is doing the same thing. Complete BS
So, this is going to suck for some (like you @shza) that are waiting for funds from several F2F sales. It's highly likely that some or all of these dates wont take place until 2021.
That's bullshit if they hold our money that long. A lot of things way more important going on right now, but this just adds to that.
Yep and stubhub owes me over $1,000 too. Their claim that this somehow will "protect sellers" if the event is later canceled is absurd.
StubHub apparently is doing the same thing. Complete BS
So, this is going to suck for some (like you @shza) that are waiting for funds from several F2F sales. It's highly likely that some or all of these dates wont take place until 2021.
That's bullshit if they hold our money that long. A lot of things way more important going on right now, but this just adds to that.
Yep and stubhub owes me over $1,000 too. Their claim that this somehow will "protect sellers" if the event is later canceled is absurd.
I wonder if it would be a waste of time to dispute the charge with CC. I used my Wells Fargo CC, may try calling them just out of curiosity and ask.
I really don’t get this, if I sold my tickets then they should pay me and I’m done. If the other buyer wants a refund then TM refunds them. Why would they charge me if the other buyer wants a refund?
Because TM is just the platform. The sale was between you and the buyer.
Makes sense, so they are holding my money in case the person who bought them requests a refund.
I really don’t get this, if I sold my tickets then they should pay me and I’m done. If the other buyer wants a refund then TM refunds them. Why would they charge me if the other buyer wants a refund?
Because TM is just the platform. The sale was between you and the buyer.
Makes sense, so they are holding my money in case the person who bought them requests a refund.
Except that’s not what they’re doing. If the buyer requests a refund they will charge it to the seller’s card. They are holding the buyer’s payment to the seller independently of that and for no justifiable reason. It’s a cash flow grab plain and simple unless they clearly confirm they will no longer charge sellers’ cards for buyer refunds.
PJ: 2013: London (ON); Buffalo; 2014: Cincinnati; 2016: Sunrise, Miami, Toronto 1-2, Wrigley 2; 2018: London (UK) 1, Milan, Padova, Sea 2, Wrigley 1-2, Fenway 1-2; 2021: SHN, Ohana, Ohana Encore 1-2; 2022: LA 1-2, Phx, Oak 1-2, Fresno, Copenhagen, Hyde Park 1-2; Quebec, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto; MSG, Camden, Nashville, Louisville, St. Louis, OKC; 2023: St. Paul 1-2, Chicago 1-2; Fort Worth 2; Austin 1-2; 2024: Vancouver 1-2, LV 1-2, LA 1-2, Napa, Barcelona 1-2
EV Solo: 2017 Louisville and Franklin, 2018 Ohana, 2019 Innings Fest, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Dublin and Ohana; 2021 Ohana Friday (from beach) and Saturday; 2022 Earthlings Newark; 2023 Innings Fest and Benoraya 1-2.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
I really don’t get this, if I sold my tickets then they should pay me and I’m done. If the other buyer wants a refund then TM refunds them. Why would they charge me if the other buyer wants a refund?
Because TM is just the platform. The sale was between you and the buyer.
Makes sense, so they are holding my money in case the person who bought them requests a refund.
Except that’s not what they’re doing. If the buyer requests a refund they will charge it to the seller’s card. They are holding the buyer’s payment to the seller independently of that and for no justifiable reason. It’s a cash flow grab plain and simple unless they clearly confirm they will no longer charge sellers’ cards for buyer refunds.
I suppose their justification is that months from now the cards that some sellers have on file will no longer be valid.
I really don’t get this, if I sold my tickets then they should pay me and I’m done. If the other buyer wants a refund then TM refunds them. Why would they charge me if the other buyer wants a refund?
Because TM is just the platform. The sale was between you and the buyer.
Makes sense, so they are holding my money in case the person who bought them requests a refund.
Except that’s not what they’re doing. If the buyer requests a refund they will charge it to the seller’s card. They are holding the buyer’s payment to the seller independently of that and for no justifiable reason. It’s a cash flow grab plain and simple unless they clearly confirm they will no longer charge sellers’ cards for buyer refunds.
I suppose their justification is that months from now the cards that some sellers have on file will no longer be valid.
Then they should do one of two things:
1) Confirm to sellers that their credit cards will not be charged for buyer refunds.
2) Release the funds to sellers. If the buyer cancels, TM refund the buyer directly.
I believe option 2 is the best. There was never a reason to keep sellers in the process once a sale is made.
PJ: 2013: London (ON); Buffalo; 2014: Cincinnati; 2016: Sunrise, Miami, Toronto 1-2, Wrigley 2; 2018: London (UK) 1, Milan, Padova, Sea 2, Wrigley 1-2, Fenway 1-2; 2021: SHN, Ohana, Ohana Encore 1-2; 2022: LA 1-2, Phx, Oak 1-2, Fresno, Copenhagen, Hyde Park 1-2; Quebec, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto; MSG, Camden, Nashville, Louisville, St. Louis, OKC; 2023: St. Paul 1-2, Chicago 1-2; Fort Worth 2; Austin 1-2; 2024: Vancouver 1-2, LV 1-2, LA 1-2, Napa, Barcelona 1-2
EV Solo: 2017 Louisville and Franklin, 2018 Ohana, 2019 Innings Fest, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Dublin and Ohana; 2021 Ohana Friday (from beach) and Saturday; 2022 Earthlings Newark; 2023 Innings Fest and Benoraya 1-2.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
I really don’t get this, if I sold my tickets then they should pay me and I’m done. If the other buyer wants a refund then TM refunds them. Why would they charge me if the other buyer wants a refund?
Because TM is just the platform. The sale was between you and the buyer.
Makes sense, so they are holding my money in case the person who bought them requests a refund.
Except that’s not what they’re doing. If the buyer requests a refund they will charge it to the seller’s card. They are holding the buyer’s payment to the seller independently of that and for no justifiable reason. It’s a cash flow grab plain and simple unless they clearly confirm they will no longer charge sellers’ cards for buyer refunds.
I suppose their justification is that months from now the cards that some sellers have on file will no longer be valid.
Then they should do one of two things:
1) Confirm to sellers that their credit cards will not be charged for buyer refunds.
2) Release the funds to sellers. If the buyer cancels, TM refund the buyer directly.
I believe option 2 is the best. There was never a reason to keep sellers in the process once a sale is made.
2 doesn't work. The seller gets paid for a canceled sale / event and TM loses money paying the refund. #1 is basically what they're doing based on the email that lmckenney24 got
I really don’t get this, if I sold my tickets then they should pay me and I’m done. If the other buyer wants a refund then TM refunds them. Why would they charge me if the other buyer wants a refund?
Because TM is just the platform. The sale was between you and the buyer.
Makes sense, so they are holding my money in case the person who bought them requests a refund.
Except that’s not what they’re doing. If the buyer requests a refund they will charge it to the seller’s card. They are holding the buyer’s payment to the seller independently of that and for no justifiable reason. It’s a cash flow grab plain and simple unless they clearly confirm they will no longer charge sellers’ cards for buyer refunds.
I suppose their justification is that months from now the cards that some sellers have on file will no longer be valid.
Then they should do one of two things:
1) Confirm to sellers that their credit cards will not be charged for buyer refunds.
2) Release the funds to sellers. If the buyer cancels, TM refund the buyer directly.
I believe option 2 is the best. There was never a reason to keep sellers in the process once a sale is made.
I agree, option #2 makes the most sense. I fucking hate Ticketbastard.
I really don’t get this, if I sold my tickets then they should pay me and I’m done. If the other buyer wants a refund then TM refunds them. Why would they charge me if the other buyer wants a refund?
Because TM is just the platform. The sale was between you and the buyer.
Makes sense, so they are holding my money in case the person who bought them requests a refund.
Except that’s not what they’re doing. If the buyer requests a refund they will charge it to the seller’s card. They are holding the buyer’s payment to the seller independently of that and for no justifiable reason. It’s a cash flow grab plain and simple unless they clearly confirm they will no longer charge sellers’ cards for buyer refunds.
I suppose their justification is that months from now the cards that some sellers have on file will no longer be valid.
Then they should do one of two things:
1) Confirm to sellers that their credit cards will not be charged for buyer refunds.
2) Release the funds to sellers. If the buyer cancels, TM refund the buyer directly.
I believe option 2 is the best. There was never a reason to keep sellers in the process once a sale is made.
2 doesn't work. The seller gets paid for a canceled sale / event and TM loses money paying the refund. #1 is basically what they're doing based on the email that lmckenney24 got
2 may not work in the stubhub case but it completely works in the fan to fan.
The payment the seller gets is equal to what they originally paid. They’re then out of the picture. At that point TM has the new buyers money and the new buyer has the ticket. Original buyer out of the picture. Future refund directly between new buyer and TM.
I call BS on their email to LMC. Dollars to donuts they will still charge seller CCs for buyer refunds. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve already done that in some cases and there are sellers who have now paid twice for the same ticket and TM won’t give them the funds from the buyer or a refund. Is anyone in that situation?
PJ: 2013: London (ON); Buffalo; 2014: Cincinnati; 2016: Sunrise, Miami, Toronto 1-2, Wrigley 2; 2018: London (UK) 1, Milan, Padova, Sea 2, Wrigley 1-2, Fenway 1-2; 2021: SHN, Ohana, Ohana Encore 1-2; 2022: LA 1-2, Phx, Oak 1-2, Fresno, Copenhagen, Hyde Park 1-2; Quebec, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto; MSG, Camden, Nashville, Louisville, St. Louis, OKC; 2023: St. Paul 1-2, Chicago 1-2; Fort Worth 2; Austin 1-2; 2024: Vancouver 1-2, LV 1-2, LA 1-2, Napa, Barcelona 1-2
EV Solo: 2017 Louisville and Franklin, 2018 Ohana, 2019 Innings Fest, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Dublin and Ohana; 2021 Ohana Friday (from beach) and Saturday; 2022 Earthlings Newark; 2023 Innings Fest and Benoraya 1-2.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
My problem is I bought from Fan2fan and sold my tickets. So if the buyer wanted a refund I would just ask for a refund which I assume I could get before the 7 days after the concert bs
Yep this sucks. Have 3 pairs pending money from F2F sale that were sold on 3/7 and 3/8.
Talked to someone on TM live chat on Monday who gave me generic response saying I should receive funds in 3-5 days. On Friday I chatted with another TM rep and he basically said I will not see any money until the event is canceled or rescheduled which is BS. Like many of you have already said TM now has my money and the money from the buyer of the tickets I sold.
Yep this sucks. Have 3 pairs pending money from F2F sale that were sold on 3/7 and 3/8.
Talked to someone on TM live chat on Monday who gave me generic response saying I should receive funds in 3-5 days. On Friday I chatted with another TM rep and he basically said I will not see any money until the event is canceled or rescheduled which is BS. Like many of you have already said TM now has my money and the money from the buyer of the tickets I sold.
Exactly. It’s total crap.
PJ: 2013: London (ON); Buffalo; 2014: Cincinnati; 2016: Sunrise, Miami, Toronto 1-2, Wrigley 2; 2018: London (UK) 1, Milan, Padova, Sea 2, Wrigley 1-2, Fenway 1-2; 2021: SHN, Ohana, Ohana Encore 1-2; 2022: LA 1-2, Phx, Oak 1-2, Fresno, Copenhagen, Hyde Park 1-2; Quebec, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto; MSG, Camden, Nashville, Louisville, St. Louis, OKC; 2023: St. Paul 1-2, Chicago 1-2; Fort Worth 2; Austin 1-2; 2024: Vancouver 1-2, LV 1-2, LA 1-2, Napa, Barcelona 1-2
EV Solo: 2017 Louisville and Franklin, 2018 Ohana, 2019 Innings Fest, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Dublin and Ohana; 2021 Ohana Friday (from beach) and Saturday; 2022 Earthlings Newark; 2023 Innings Fest and Benoraya 1-2.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
I really don’t get this, if I sold my tickets then they should pay me and I’m done. If the other buyer wants a refund then TM refunds them. Why would they charge me if the other buyer wants a refund?
Because TM is just the platform. The sale was between you and the buyer.
Makes sense, so they are holding my money in case the person who bought them requests a refund.
Except that’s not what they’re doing. If the buyer requests a refund they will charge it to the seller’s card. They are holding the buyer’s payment to the seller independently of that and for no justifiable reason. It’s a cash flow grab plain and simple unless they clearly confirm they will no longer charge sellers’ cards for buyer refunds.
I suppose their justification is that months from now the cards that some sellers have on file will no longer be valid.
Then they should do one of two things:
1) Confirm to sellers that their credit cards will not be charged for buyer refunds.
2) Release the funds to sellers. If the buyer cancels, TM refund the buyer directly.
I believe option 2 is the best. There was never a reason to keep sellers in the process once a sale is made.
2 doesn't work. The seller gets paid for a canceled sale / event and TM loses money paying the refund. #1 is basically what they're doing based on the email that lmckenney24 got
2 may not work in the stubhub case but it completely works in the fan to fan.
The payment the seller gets is equal to what they originally paid. They’re then out of the picture. At that point TM has the new buyers money and the new buyer has the ticket. Original buyer out of the picture. Future refund directly between new buyer and TM.
True, that could work. But I suspect their systems aren't set up for it, so it would take some work on TM's part. Usually if a show is canceled, the original buyer of the standard ticket automatically gets a refund to the credit card used to buy the ticket. Because resale prices typically vary from the original price, any resale refund has to be handled separately, by charging the resale seller's card on file when listing the ticket. Of course, since F2F resale is fixed at "face value" and there is no other way to transfer tickets, in this case TM could just treat the most recent F2F buyer as if they were the original purchaser for purposes of any refunds, so that previous buyers/sellers can be compensated and are "out of the picture." But since that wouldn't work for the thousands of non-PJ TM events which have a mismatch between original price and resale price, I suspect their systems just aren't set up for that. Hence the situation we're in now.
StubHub apparently is doing the same thing. Complete BS
So, this is going to suck for some (like you @shza) that are waiting for funds from several F2F sales. It's highly likely that some or all of these dates wont take place until 2021.
That's bullshit if they hold our money that long. A lot of things way more important going on right now, but this just adds to that.
Yep and stubhub owes me over $1,000 too. Their claim that this somehow will "protect sellers" if the event is later canceled is absurd.
I wonder if it would be a waste of time to dispute the charge with CC. I used my Wells Fargo CC, may try calling them just out of curiosity and ask.
I would think filing a dispute with your card company would make sense. I got my debit card refunded twice this year because of some stupid crap a couple of companies tried to pull. Small amounts that most people wouldn't fight but me.
I sold 2 pair in Feb (US citizen, sold for Canada). They eventually emailed me to confirm mailing address and they were mailing a paper check to me (this was Mar 5). Still nothing as of 3/25. You're welcome for the interest free loan TM!
Camden, NJ 06 - Columbia, SC 08 - Washington D.C. 08 - Philadelphia, PA 09 - Bristow, VA 10 - Hartford, CT 10 - NYC, NY 10 - Alpine Valley, WI 11 - Baltimore, MD 13 - Ottawa, ON 20 - Baltimore, MD 20 - St. Louis, MO 20
Sold a pair of tickets on 3/7. Still no payment. As sellers, we no longer own the product. Ticketmaster is at least sitting on the $244 from my purchase as well as the $244 from the resale. That is nothing short of fraudulent.
Are we all still in the same boat or are some of you receiving payments?
PJ: 2013: London (ON); Buffalo; 2014: Cincinnati; 2016: Sunrise, Miami, Toronto 1-2, Wrigley 2; 2018: London (UK) 1, Milan, Padova, Sea 2, Wrigley 1-2, Fenway 1-2; 2021: SHN, Ohana, Ohana Encore 1-2; 2022: LA 1-2, Phx, Oak 1-2, Fresno, Copenhagen, Hyde Park 1-2; Quebec, Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto; MSG, Camden, Nashville, Louisville, St. Louis, OKC; 2023: St. Paul 1-2, Chicago 1-2; Fort Worth 2; Austin 1-2; 2024: Vancouver 1-2, LV 1-2, LA 1-2, Napa, Barcelona 1-2
EV Solo: 2017 Louisville and Franklin, 2018 Ohana, 2019 Innings Fest, Berlin, Düsseldorf, Dublin and Ohana; 2021 Ohana Friday (from beach) and Saturday; 2022 Earthlings Newark; 2023 Innings Fest and Benoraya 1-2.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
I sold 2 pair in Feb (US citizen, sold for Canada). They eventually emailed me to confirm mailing address and they were mailing a paper check to me (this was Mar 5). Still nothing as of 3/25. You're welcome for the interest free loan TM!
I'm in the same boat as you (email was March 7) The only optimism I have is that they said the check would be delivered within 4-6 weeks and it's been less than 3 weeks. If I don't have something by April 18, I'll reach out. Just trying to be patient.
Sold a pair of tickets on 3/7. Still no payment. As sellers, we no longer own the product. Ticketmaster is at least sitting on the $244 from my purchase as well as the $244 from the resale. That is nothing short of fraudulent.
Are we all still in the same boat or are some of you receiving payments?
Same boat. Sold pair to LA1 on afternoon on March 9 - later that same day the tour postponement announcement came out. Haven't received anything from TM, and based on info on the thread don't expect to for some time. Frustrating.
Comments
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
StubHub apparently is doing the same thing. Complete BS
ISO 2016 Greenville shirt. Size medium. PM me if you have one for sale/trade.
Also, Stubhub is a slightly different case. They aren’t already holding the money from the original purchase. And with resale prices not being limited to face value there’s probably more risk that the seller will not be able to refund the buyer due to the seller’s finances down the road.
But regardless of whether StubHub is different or not, what TM is doing is disgraceful.
At the very least, they should do these three things, which is not to say this would justify the unilateral policy change.
1. Deposit the funds into a trust account, like lawyers do, to segregate the funds from their general finances. They are holding these funds on behalf of the seller. Or the buyer in case of a refund.
2. Whatever interest is earned on the trust deposits is paid to the sellers or buyers.
3. Formally waive the requirement that the seller’s card fund buyer refunds.
Unless they do #3, the rest is irrelevant anyway.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
That's bullshit if they hold our money that long. A lot of things way more important going on right now, but this just adds to that.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
1) Confirm to sellers that their credit cards will not be charged for buyer refunds.
2) Release the funds to sellers. If the buyer cancels, TM refund the buyer directly.
I believe option 2 is the best. There was never a reason to keep sellers in the process once a sale is made.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
The payment the seller gets is equal to what they originally paid. They’re then out of the picture. At that point TM has the new buyers money and the new buyer has the ticket. Original buyer out of the picture. Future refund directly between new buyer and TM.
I call BS on their email to LMC. Dollars to donuts they will still charge seller CCs for buyer refunds. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve already done that in some cases and there are sellers who have now paid twice for the same ticket and TM won’t give them the funds from the buyer or a refund. Is anyone in that situation?
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
Talked to someone on TM live chat on Monday who gave me generic response saying I should receive funds in 3-5 days. On Friday I chatted with another TM rep and he basically said I will not see any money until the event is canceled or rescheduled which is BS. Like many of you have already said TM now has my money and the money from the buyer of the tickets I sold.
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
PAID Debit card - on 3/10
Are we all still in the same boat or are some of you receiving payments?
Gutted: London 2 2018, Sacramento 2022, Noblesville 2023
Haven't received anything from TM, and based on info on the thread don't expect to for some time. Frustrating.