Just curious, since now you’re claiming to be more of an expert than me: how many philosophy classes have you taken?
I took one, it was pretty cool.
I think you might be ahead of mrussel!
At least I know the pillars. You fail to grasp high school level philosophy.
You realize I have google too, right? I can see where you’re pulling this “pillars of philosophy” language from. And you’re still managing to misrepresent it.
It's basic. You learn it right away in philosophy. Go Google Keynesian economics now. I can talk about that even though that's also basic economics and on Google. Next Google Age of Jackson and let's discuss Robert Remini's white washing of Jackson's record on Indian Removal.
Get the picture? Just because you heard of something for the first time today doesn't mean I did.
You crack me up. The exact language you used earlier is in the top link if you search “pillars of philosophy.” It’s fine. Just own it.
And I’d be happy to discuss Jackson and the genocide of native Americans with you. I teach it regularly.
Of course it would be the top. Use your damn brain. It's how Google actually works.
Cincy, didn't I ask you to shame me?
you poorly cribbed a very basic website, man.
Man, you violated the most basic tenant of philosophy by declaring that your opinion was unassailable. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is? And you claim to speak for scholars when you have zero formal education on the topic. My formal education is history and economics. But at least I have a rudimentary background in philosophy as one is required to take 3000 level courses in philosophy for a history degree. Your arguments failed the challenges that HFD and I put forth because you're parroting pieces of information you gather from co workers. That's a recipe for failure.
I never said I have no formal education in philosophy. I said I’m not a scholar or expert in the field. That’s not the area in which I teach and publish. I’m in the humanities, so I have more philosophy background than most. Doesn’t make me an expert. And no, that is not the most basic tenet of philosophy. You’re just being silly now.
By your standards, I’m an expert in a bunch of areas!
you are an expert in quoting yourself and looking like you are talking to yourself.
Stupid phone.
It’s actually just the forum, it can get messed up from a computer too!
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It's a hopeless situation...
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,001
@ecdanc will try to frame this respectfully. I am curious. when I asked earlier today age grouping you replied. also giving your spouses age. in that response might be the answer to what I am about to ask.
now my question is, given your stated way of raising your child, I wonder are you and your spouse modeling the same for your child? Meaning are both you and your spouse living gender neutral lives? I understand the child is only 9 months old, but surely is absorbing language and environment for clues to social cues and the like.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
I’d love to hear what that professor thought of you. 😇
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
@ecdanc will try to frame this respectfully. I am curious. when I asked earlier today age grouping you replied. also giving your spouses age. in that response might be the answer to what I am about to ask.
now my question is, given your stated way of raising your child, I wonder are you and your spouse modeling the same for your child? Meaning are both you and your spouse living gender neutral lives? I understand the child is only 9 months old, but surely is absorbing language and environment for clues to social cues and the like.
Excellent question. This is something we’ve talked a lot about, down to how we refer to our male cat.
Ultimately, we’re seeking a really tricky balance. On one hand, we want P to know that the world still uses gender basically at all times. In that sense, it’s inescapable. On the other hand, we want them to feel they can shape their own gender identity—deciding if they are a boy, a girl, or neither.
So, to return more concretely to your question: I am a man; my wife is a woman—those are our gender identities. By not hiding those, yet trying (the key word with all of this is “trying”) to provide P with a space where a) people have genders; b) those genders aren’t made a huge deal; and c) it’s ok to embrace either or neither of those genders—that’s how we try to strike that balance. As P gets older we will, of course, also talk directly with them about all of this.
All that is to say, while I may dream of a world where gender—as we currently understand it—doesn’t exist, our child doesn’t live in that world just yet.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,001
@ecdanc will try to frame this respectfully. I am curious. when I asked earlier today age grouping you replied. also giving your spouses age. in that response might be the answer to what I am about to ask.
now my question is, given your stated way of raising your child, I wonder are you and your spouse modeling the same for your child? Meaning are both you and your spouse living gender neutral lives? I understand the child is only 9 months old, but surely is absorbing language and environment for clues to social cues and the like.
Excellent question. This is something we’ve talked a lot about, down to how we refer to our male cat.
Ultimately, we’re seeking a really tricky balance. On one hand, we want P to know that the world still uses gender basically at all times. In that sense, it’s inescapable. On the other hand, we want them to feel they can shape their own gender identity—deciding if they are a boy, a girl, or neither.
So, to return more concretely to your question: I am a man; my wife is a woman—those are our gender identities. By not hiding those, yet trying (the key word with all of this is “trying”) to provide P with a space where a) people have genders; b) those genders aren’t made a huge deal; and c) it’s ok to embrace either or neither of those genders—that’s how we try to strike that balance. As P gets older we will, of course, also talk directly with them about all of this.
All that is to say, while I may dream of a world where gender—as we currently understand it—doesn’t exist, our child doesn’t live in that world just yet.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
@ecdanc will try to frame this respectfully. I am curious. when I asked earlier today age grouping you replied. also giving your spouses age. in that response might be the answer to what I am about to ask.
now my question is, given your stated way of raising your child, I wonder are you and your spouse modeling the same for your child? Meaning are both you and your spouse living gender neutral lives? I understand the child is only 9 months old, but surely is absorbing language and environment for clues to social cues and the like.
Excellent question. This is something we’ve talked a lot about, down to how we refer to our male cat.
Ultimately, we’re seeking a really tricky balance. On one hand, we want P to know that the world still uses gender basically at all times. In that sense, it’s inescapable. On the other hand, we want them to feel they can shape their own gender identity—deciding if they are a boy, a girl, or neither.
So, to return more concretely to your question: I am a man; my wife is a woman—those are our gender identities. By not hiding those, yet trying (the key word with all of this is “trying”) to provide P with a space where a) people have genders; b) those genders aren’t made a huge deal; and c) it’s ok to embrace either or neither of those genders—that’s how we try to strike that balance. As P gets older we will, of course, also talk directly with them about all of this.
All that is to say, while I may dream of a world where gender—as we currently understand it—doesn’t exist, our child doesn’t live in that world just yet.
thank you.
can I ask the reasoning behind including the cat?
Just a suggestion of how pervasive gender is and any efforts to do things differently. Our cat now gets referred to as "they" a lot, just because we've trained ourselves to use that pronoun with P.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
Rule of thumb on the AMT.. if you piss off @brianlux, it's probably you. It's pretty simple. Brian is the nicest, least argumentative person that's a regular here.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.
The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.
The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
Hey are you going to an Oakland show? I'll be at both. Would love to get a beer with you one day.
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.
The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
Are you telling me there's literally no way for someone to say to you effectively "hey, man, that thing you just said was kinda offensive?"
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.
The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
Hey are you going to an Oakland show? I'll be at both. Would love to get a beer with you one day.
Sorry to say, no, I'll miss the show. My tinnitus and hearing issues have gotten so bad that I probably won't be able to do plugged in shows ever again (no need to feel sorry for me though- I've seen so much great music including that killer PJ performance in Missoula in 2012!) We do get down to S.F. now and then. When is the Oakland show? I'd love to meet up if possible!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Rule of thumb on the AMT.. if you piss off @brianlux, it's probably you. It's pretty simple. Brian is the nicest, least argumentative person that's a regular here.
It is possible for "ecdanc is an asshole" and "brianlux is intransigent" to be true at the same time.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.
The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
Are you telling me there's literally no way for someone to say to you effectively "hey, man, that thing you just said was kinda offensive?"
I am literally telling you I'm done with you here. Bye.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.
The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
Are you telling me there's literally no way for someone to say to you effectively "hey, man, that thing you just said was kinda offensive?"
I am literally telling you I'm done with you here. Bye.
It's so cute when people justify their own unwillingness to change by saying "you're mean!"
Anyone else? I've heard a lot of "I'm totally open to new ideas / change, but not from someone with your approach." I'm asking. Begging, even: what approach has actually worked?
Rule of thumb on the AMT.. if you piss off @brianlux, it's probably you. It's pretty simple. Brian is the nicest, least argumentative person that's a regular here.
It is possible for "ecdanc is an asshole" and "brianlux is intransigent" to be true at the same time.
I'm going with one of the two, but not both.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,001
@ecdanc will try to frame this respectfully. I am curious. when I asked earlier today age grouping you replied. also giving your spouses age. in that response might be the answer to what I am about to ask.
now my question is, given your stated way of raising your child, I wonder are you and your spouse modeling the same for your child? Meaning are both you and your spouse living gender neutral lives? I understand the child is only 9 months old, but surely is absorbing language and environment for clues to social cues and the like.
Excellent question. This is something we’ve talked a lot about, down to how we refer to our male cat.
Ultimately, we’re seeking a really tricky balance. On one hand, we want P to know that the world still uses gender basically at all times. In that sense, it’s inescapable. On the other hand, we want them to feel they can shape their own gender identity—deciding if they are a boy, a girl, or neither.
So, to return more concretely to your question: I am a man; my wife is a woman—those are our gender identities. By not hiding those, yet trying (the key word with all of this is “trying”) to provide P with a space where a) people have genders; b) those genders aren’t made a huge deal; and c) it’s ok to embrace either or neither of those genders—that’s how we try to strike that balance. As P gets older we will, of course, also talk directly with them about all of this.
All that is to say, while I may dream of a world where gender—as we currently understand it—doesn’t exist, our child doesn’t live in that world just yet.
thank you.
can I ask the reasoning behind including the cat?
Just a suggestion of how pervasive gender is and any efforts to do things differently. Our cat now gets referred to as "they" a lot, just because we've trained ourselves to use that pronoun with P.
is it? was unaware of identity issues in the animal kingdom. so thats a thing? I thought they just were as they are..... and acted as such generally speaking.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,792
Another misquote. LOL, dude cracks me up.
Hey folks, it's time for some COFFEE!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
You keep saying you want to learn...but I haven't seen evidence of that at all. The first half of your next sentence shows your motives better, and I don;t believe the second half at all.
To be honest I am interested in the topic and understanding more. I have many questions.
So.... Theyby. Why use that instead of baby? Baby doesn't denote any specific gender. What is the purpose of changing that? To me, it honestly seems like it's more for the parents, which seems to go against the whole, let the child decide for themselves. And I guess, a child doesn't really decide for itself at the 3-4 year age where I've read gender becomes apparent to them. It's just their nature coming out. Wouldn't this come out anyhow? Couldn't you still use whatever customary pronouns exist and then just support your child as you see it?
have more questions but don't know how to type them at this point.
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.
The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
Hey are you going to an Oakland show? I'll be at both. Would love to get a beer with you one day.
Sorry to say, no, I'll miss the show. My tinnitus and hearing issues have gotten so bad that I probably won't be able to do plugged in shows ever again (no need to feel sorry for me though- I've seen so much great music including that killer PJ performance in Missoula in 2012!) We do get down to S.F. now and then. When is the Oakland show? I'd love to meet up if possible!
I believe 4/18-19. That sucks about your tinnitus. Is that caused by years of great shows?
@ecdanc will try to frame this respectfully. I am curious. when I asked earlier today age grouping you replied. also giving your spouses age. in that response might be the answer to what I am about to ask.
now my question is, given your stated way of raising your child, I wonder are you and your spouse modeling the same for your child? Meaning are both you and your spouse living gender neutral lives? I understand the child is only 9 months old, but surely is absorbing language and environment for clues to social cues and the like.
Excellent question. This is something we’ve talked a lot about, down to how we refer to our male cat.
Ultimately, we’re seeking a really tricky balance. On one hand, we want P to know that the world still uses gender basically at all times. In that sense, it’s inescapable. On the other hand, we want them to feel they can shape their own gender identity—deciding if they are a boy, a girl, or neither.
So, to return more concretely to your question: I am a man; my wife is a woman—those are our gender identities. By not hiding those, yet trying (the key word with all of this is “trying”) to provide P with a space where a) people have genders; b) those genders aren’t made a huge deal; and c) it’s ok to embrace either or neither of those genders—that’s how we try to strike that balance. As P gets older we will, of course, also talk directly with them about all of this.
All that is to say, while I may dream of a world where gender—as we currently understand it—doesn’t exist, our child doesn’t live in that world just yet.
thank you.
can I ask the reasoning behind including the cat?
Just a suggestion of how pervasive gender is and any efforts to do things differently. Our cat now gets referred to as "they" a lot, just because we've trained ourselves to use that pronoun with P.
is it? was unaware of identity issues in the animal kingdom. so thats a thing? I thought they just were as they are..... and acted as such generally speaking.
I'm not saying inherent gender traits in cats; I'm saying in how we treat and talk to cats. In other words, I don't think cats have gender, but we sometimes treat them as if they do. Does that make sense?
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,001
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.
The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
Are you telling me there's literally no way for someone to say to you effectively "hey, man, that thing you just said was kinda offensive?"
pehaps instead of a declarative statement you might phrase it as hey man , I think that was etc.... or it seemed to me..... or I find that...heres why.
you are new to this subforum. we dont "know" you. we do however have a decent sense of who/how the rest of us are here.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
Jesus Christ man, calling someone prejudiced in my book is not mildly effective.
The vibe here sucks and I'm turning into a complete asshole as a result. I am fucking done here.
Are you telling me there's literally no way for someone to say to you effectively "hey, man, that thing you just said was kinda offensive?"
I gotta say, I often use Brian as my benchmark around here as he is way easier going than I am and, from what I know, seems like just a really nice guy. Nicer than me. And you having pissed him off to this degree...I think you should really take a look at your method around here. We all have bad days, moments.
I can't believe I made it through the whole thread...wow. I felt like it was one of those social gatherings where it starts off with a bunch of people ready to engage and interested in the discussion except then there's that 1 person who slowly drives everyone away with their unwavering arrogance of expertise on the subject. I had a philosophy professor like that once. Drove the class frickin' crazy to the point that on review day we all openly discussed how we were going to rate him so no one else ever had to suffer through the shit we did.
It broke down for me right away when I was basically accused by the Professor of being homophobic because he sees my views (actually it was just one statement) as being "linked quite directly to a long historical line of prejudice" and went on to say that "while I do not necessarily think you purposefully engage in that hate,
your speech/views here are linked quite explicitly to the speech/views
of those who do. " WTF? Like that is supposed to somehow be an incentive to get me to sit at the feet of the master and be enlightened. Besides which, the Prof obviously does not know me very well. Somebody get me a bucket!
I’ve never really understood the tendency to respond to “something you just said is mildly offensive” with “you don’t know me! Stop calling me a bad person.”
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
First of all, you never said what I said was "mildly offensive", you referred to me as being prejudiced. And I did not ask you to "stop calling me a bad person". You of all people, Professor, should know it is not good debating to misquote yourself or the other person.
As far as your loaded question scenario, I can't help you there bud because I have said nothing that isn't true. I respect your right to have your beliefs, but I don't respect you being so full of yourself. You might consider that, as I'm obviously not the only one here who thinks that is the case. And as far as wanting to be a more effective advocate, you might consider looking at your own self-inflated way of discussing an issue instead of insinuating the problem is with the other person. At this point, you've totally lost me as seeing you as an effective advocate.
And, no, you obviously don't know much about me.
See, here's the thing: I'm asking to learn. I have a sense that it is impossible to convince you that you're wrong in certain areas, but I'm happy (ecstatic) to be proven wrong. I'm asking how others have accomplished this seemingly simple feat. Has it ever happened? To phrase that differently, what have others done that made you see them as "an effective advocate?"
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
You keep saying you want to learn...but I haven't seen evidence of that at all. The first half of your next sentence shows your motives better, and I don;t believe the second half at all.
To be honest I am interested in the topic and understanding more. I have many questions.
So.... Theyby. Why use that instead of baby? Baby doesn't denote any specific gender. What is the purpose of changing that? To me, it honestly seems like it's more for the parents, which seems to go against the whole, let the child decide for themselves. And I guess, a child doesn't really decide for itself at the 3-4 year age where I've read gender becomes apparent to them. It's just their nature coming out. Wouldn't this come out anyhow? Couldn't you still use whatever customary pronouns exist and then just support your child as you see it?
have more questions but don't know how to type them at this point.
I've known a lot of people who give their yet unborn children little pet names. Sometimes it's because they don't want others to know the name they've chosen yet (that was part of our motivation); sometimes it's just a sort of cutesy thing (some good friends of mine called their child Biscuit until she was born). So, we went with "Theyby" as our cutesy name. Not really much more to it than that. Put differently, calling P theyby before they were born wasn't necessarily a part of raising them gender neutral, even if that decision influenced the pet name we chose.
My answer to the question I bolded is....maybe? I feel like by now I've expressed WHY we do it--our hopes for what it will accomplish--but I'm not trying to imply that ours is the only way to do it. There likely will never be a moment when we know if it "worked" or not--just like other parents, we're trying to do what we think is right/best. That's all.
As for your first paragraph, all I can say is I'm being sincere. I am absolutely an asshole the vast majority of the time, but--though I know people here have no reason to take my word for it--I work everyday to avoid being inflexible. I.e., I really do want to learn.
Comments
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
i like to learn, so I will ask a question to the board that will be a learning opportunity for me:
Describe to me instances when someone has effectively convinced you your behavior/words were inappropriate when you initially thought they were fine? I’m genuinely curious what methods have worked. Because, believe it or not, I’d like to be a more effective advocate.
Ultimately, we’re seeking a really tricky balance. On one hand, we want P to know that the world still uses gender basically at all times. In that sense, it’s inescapable. On the other hand, we want them to feel they can shape their own gender identity—deciding if they are a boy, a girl, or neither.
So, to return more concretely to your question: I am a man; my wife is a woman—those are our gender identities. By not hiding those, yet trying (the key word with all of this is “trying”) to provide P with a space where a) people have genders; b) those genders aren’t made a huge deal; and c) it’s ok to embrace either or neither of those genders—that’s how we try to strike that balance. As P gets older we will, of course, also talk directly with them about all of this.
All that is to say, while I may dream of a world where gender—as we currently understand it—doesn’t exist, our child doesn’t live in that world just yet.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
And, while this will go nowhere: yes, I said you were being mildly offensive. I said your statement was directly linked to a historical line of prejudice. That's basically what it means to be mildly offensive in my book: you've said something that unintentionally reinforces marginalizing discourse.
And, lastly, the "you . . . don't know much about me" is why it sounds like you think I'm calling you a bad person. I don't have to know you to know that statement's relationship to discourses of prejudice. I'm not passing judgment on you; I'm passing judgment on your words.
Sorry to say, no, I'll miss the show. My tinnitus and hearing issues have gotten so bad that I probably won't be able to do plugged in shows ever again (no need to feel sorry for me though- I've seen so much great music including that killer PJ performance in Missoula in 2012!) We do get down to S.F. now and then. When is the Oakland show? I'd love to meet up if possible!
I am literally telling you I'm done with you here. Bye.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
To be honest I am interested in the topic and understanding more. I have many questions.
So.... Theyby. Why use that instead of baby? Baby doesn't denote any specific gender. What is the purpose of changing that? To me, it honestly seems like it's more for the parents, which seems to go against the whole, let the child decide for themselves. And I guess, a child doesn't really decide for itself at the 3-4 year age where I've read gender becomes apparent to them. It's just their nature coming out. Wouldn't this come out anyhow? Couldn't you still use whatever customary pronouns exist and then just support your child as you see it?
have more questions but don't know how to type them at this point.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
My answer to the question I bolded is....maybe? I feel like by now I've expressed WHY we do it--our hopes for what it will accomplish--but I'm not trying to imply that ours is the only way to do it. There likely will never be a moment when we know if it "worked" or not--just like other parents, we're trying to do what we think is right/best. That's all.
As for your first paragraph, all I can say is I'm being sincere. I am absolutely an asshole the vast majority of the time, but--though I know people here have no reason to take my word for it--I work everyday to avoid being inflexible. I.e., I really do want to learn.