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The coronavirus

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    Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    I guess all should  be
    Are animals used in the making of vaccines?  If they are, that must be quite a dilemma for vegans...
    Give Peas A Chance…
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    oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,833
    I guess all should  be
    Are animals used in the making of vaccines?  If they are, that must be quite a dilemma for vegans...
    Many vaccines are cultured in an egg medium, so people with egg allergies have to be cautious which vaccines they get. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
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    hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
    I guess all should  be
    Are animals used in the making of vaccines?  If they are, that must be quite a dilemma for vegans...
    According to what I’ve read, they’re used in research. Again, could cause a conundrum for some. 
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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
    I did the math yesterday and came up with a reading that show 8% of Americans had died of COVID-19.  Thank GOD I somehow put in the wrong number of zero's.  The actual number (264,000 divided by 331,000,000) is 0.00079  or 0.079%.  Still too many, but nowhere near 8%
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • Options
    Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    I guess all should  be
    Are animals used in the making of vaccines?  If they are, that must be quite a dilemma for vegans...
    Many vaccines are cultured in an egg medium, so people with egg allergies have to be cautious which vaccines they get. 
    Is the flu vaccine cultured in eggs???




    Give Peas A Chance…
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    Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    edited November 2020
    8 Animals Used In Vaccine Production - WorldAtlas

    It appears animals are used.

    I hope the vegans that like to critique us meat-eaters check and make sure it's a vegan vaccine or vegan medicine... :o;)=)
    Post edited by Meltdown99 on
    Give Peas A Chance…
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    Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    Does anybody know if you get a choice of vaccine manufacturers?  What if you want the oxford vaccine?
    Give Peas A Chance…
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    oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,833
    I guess all should  be
    Are animals used in the making of vaccines?  If they are, that must be quite a dilemma for vegans...
    Many vaccines are cultured in an egg medium, so people with egg allergies have to be cautious which vaccines they get. 
    Is the flu vaccine cultured in eggs???




    Some brands are, some are not. Where I work the health authority makes a certain number of the egg-free brand available for those who need it, but I can’t remember what it’s called. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
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    cutzcutz Posts: 11,461
    23scidoo said:


    CORONAVIRUS|115,860 views|Sep 23, 2020,01:11pm EDT
    Covid-19 Vaccine Protocols Reveal That Trials Are Designed To Succeed
    William A. Haseltine
    William A. HaseltineContributor
    Healthcare
    Volunteers take part in post-registration phase trials of Russia's COVID-19 vaccine

    MOSCOW, RUSSIA - SEPTEMBER 9, 2020: A gloved medical worker prepares to give a volunteer a trial ... [+] SERGEI BOBYLEV/TASS
    Moderna, Pfizer, AstraZeneca, and Johnson & Johnson are leading candidates for the completion of a Covid-19 vaccine likely to be released in the coming months. These companies have published their vaccine trial protocols. This unusually transparent action during a major drug trial deserves praise, close inspection of the protocols raises surprising concerns. These trials seem designed to prove their vaccines work, even if the measured effects are minimal. 

    What would a normal vaccine trial look like? 

    Prevention of infection must be a critical endpoint. Any vaccine trial should include regular antigen testing every three days to test contagiousness to pick up early signs of infection and PCR testing once a week to confirm infection by SARS-CoV-2 test the ability of the vaccines to stave off infection. Prevention of infection is not a criterion for success for any of these vaccines. In fact, their endpoints all require confirmed infections and all those they will include in the analysis for success,  the only difference being the severity of symptoms between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Measuring differences amongst only those infected by SARS-CoV-2 underscores the implicit conclusion that the vaccines are not expected to prevent infection, only modify symptoms of those infected.

    We all expect an effective vaccine to prevent serious illness if infected. Three of the vaccine protocols—Moderna, Pfizer, and AstraZeneca—do not require that their vaccine prevent serious disease only that they prevent moderate symptoms which may be as mild as cough, or headache.


    The greatest fear people have is dying from this disease. A vaccine must significantly or entirely reduce deaths from Covid-19. Over two hundred thousand people have died in the United States and nearly a million worldwide. None list mortality as a critical endpoint.

    We recognize that the influenza vaccine does not prevent infection with that virus, but does have a measurable impact on hospitalization and death. The moderate protections from the influenza virus can potentially be replicated and improved on with Covid-19, but only with extensive trials that ensure the efficacy of a future vaccine.


    Vaccine efficacy is typically proved by large clinical trials over several years. The pharmaceutical companies intend to do trials ranging from thirty thousand to sixty thousand participants. This scale of study would be sufficient for testing vaccine efficacy. The first surprise found upon a closer reading of the protocols reveals that each study intends to complete interim and primary analyses that at most include 164 participants. 

    These companies likely intend to apply for an emergency use authorization (EUA) from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) with just their limited preliminary results. 

    Interim analysis success requires a seventy percent efficacy. The vaccine or placebo will be given to thousands of people in each trial. For Moderna, the initial interim analysis will be based on the results of infection of only 53 people. The judgment reached in interim analysis is dependent upon the difference in the number of people with symptoms, which may be mild, in the vaccinated group versus the unvaccinated group.

    Moderna’s success margin is for 13 or less of those 53 to develop symptoms compared to 40 or more in their control group.  For Johnson & Johnson, their interim analysis includes 77 vaccine recipients, with a success margin of 18 or less developing symptoms compared to 59 in the control group. For AstraZeneca, their interim analysis includes 50 vaccine recipients, with a success margin of 12 or less developing symptoms compared to 19 in the 25 person control group.  Pfizer is even smaller in its success requirements. Their initial group includes 32 vaccine recipients, with a success margin of 7 or less developing symptoms compared to 25 in the control group. 

    The primary analyses are a bit more expanded, but need to be less efficacious for success: about sixty percent. AstraZeneca, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson, and Pfizer have primary analyses that distribute the vaccine to only 100, 151, 154, and 164 participants respectively. These companies state that they do not “intend” to stop trials after the primary analyses, but there is every chance that they intend to pursue an EUA and focus on manufacturing the vaccine rather than further thorough testing.

    The second surprise from these protocols is how mild the requirements for contracted Covid-19 symptoms are. A careful reading reveals that the minimum qualification for a case of Covid-19 is a positive PCR test and one or two mild symptoms. These include headache, fever, cough, or mild nausea. This is far from adequate. These vaccine trials are testing to prevent common cold symptoms. 

    These trials certainly do not give assurance that the vaccine will protect from the serious consequences of Covid-19. Johnson & Johnson is the only trial that requires the inclusion of severe Covid-19 cases, at least 5 for the 75 participant interim analysis.

    One of the more immediate questions a trial needs to answer is whether a vaccine prevents infection. If someone takes this vaccine, are they far less likely to become infected with the virus? These trials all clearly focus on eliminating symptoms of Covid-19, and not infections themselves. Asymptomatic infection is listed as a secondary objective in these trials when they should be of critical importance. 

    It appears that all the pharmaceutical companies assume that the vaccine will never prevent infection. Their criteria for approval is the difference in symptoms between an infected control group and an infected vaccine group. They do not measure the difference between infection and noninfection as a primary motivation.

    A greater concern for the millions of older people and those with preexisting conditions is whether these trials test the vaccine's ability to prevent severe illness and death. Again we find that severe illness and death are only secondary objectives in these trials. None list the prevention of death and hospitalization as a critically important barrier.

    If total infections, hospitalizations, and death are going to be ignored in the preliminary trials of the vaccines, then there must be phase four testing to monitor their safety and efficacy. This would be long term massive scale monitoring of the vaccine. There must be an indication that the authorized vaccines are reducing infection, hospitalization, and death, or else they will not be able to stop this pandemic.

    These protocols do not emphasize the most important ramifications of Covid-19 that people are most interested in preventing: overall infection, hospitalization, and death. It boggles the mind and defies common sense that the National Institute of Health, the Center for Disease Control, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, and the rest would consider the approval of a vaccine that would be distributed to hundreds of millions on such slender threads of success.

    It appears that these trials are intended to pass the lowest possible barrier of success. As this is being written, the FDA is poised to announce tougher standards for a Covid-19 vaccine in the near future. It is my hope that these new standards for an EUA will at a minimum include requirements for protections from infection itself, protections from severe virus-related disease leading to hospitalization, and a significant improvement in Covid-19 related mortality.

    It is clear from these studies that the vaccines currently under trial will not be the silver bullet needed to end the pandemic. We must do all we can public health measures to control Covid-19 as China and other Asian countries have successfully done.

    Correction (10/7/20): A former version of the article stated that 53 people received a vaccination for interim analysis in the Moderna trial. The vaccine was in fact given to thousands of people, with 53 being the number of people who must be infected with Covid-19 to run the analysis
  • Options
    static111static111 Posts: 4,889
    cutz said:
    23scidoo said:


    CORONAVIRUS|115,860 views|Sep 23, 2020,01:11pm EDT
    Covid-19 Vaccine Protocols Reveal That Trials Are Designed To Succeed
    William A. Haseltine
    William A. HaseltineContributor
    Healthcare
    Volunteers take part in post-registration phase trials of Russia's COVID-19 vaccine

    MOSCOW, RUSSIA - SEPTEMBER 9, 2020: A gloved medical worker prepares to give a volunteer a trial ... [+] SERGEI BOBYLEV/TASS
    Moderna, Pfizer, AstraZeneca, and Johnson & Johnson are leading candidates for the completion of a Covid-19 vaccine likely to be released in the coming months. These companies have published their vaccine trial protocols. This unusually transparent action during a major drug trial deserves praise, close inspection of the protocols raises surprising concerns. These trials seem designed to prove their vaccines work, even if the measured effects are minimal. 

    What would a normal vaccine trial look like? 

    Prevention of infection must be a critical endpoint. Any vaccine trial should include regular antigen testing every three days to test contagiousness to pick up early signs of infection and PCR testing once a week to confirm infection by SARS-CoV-2 test the ability of the vaccines to stave off infection. Prevention of infection is not a criterion for success for any of these vaccines. In fact, their endpoints all require confirmed infections and all those they will include in the analysis for success,  the only difference being the severity of symptoms between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Measuring differences amongst only those infected by SARS-CoV-2 underscores the implicit conclusion that the vaccines are not expected to prevent infection, only modify symptoms of those infected.

    We all expect an effective vaccine to prevent serious illness if infected. Three of the vaccine protocols—Moderna, Pfizer, and AstraZeneca—do not require that their vaccine prevent serious disease only that they prevent moderate symptoms which may be as mild as cough, or headache.


    The greatest fear people have is dying from this disease. A vaccine must significantly or entirely reduce deaths from Covid-19. Over two hundred thousand people have died in the United States and nearly a million worldwide. None list mortality as a critical endpoint.

    We recognize that the influenza vaccine does not prevent infection with that virus, but does have a measurable impact on hospitalization and death. The moderate protections from the influenza virus can potentially be replicated and improved on with Covid-19, but only with extensive trials that ensure the efficacy of a future vaccine.


    Vaccine efficacy is typically proved by large clinical trials over several years. The pharmaceutical companies intend to do trials ranging from thirty thousand to sixty thousand participants. This scale of study would be sufficient for testing vaccine efficacy. The first surprise found upon a closer reading of the protocols reveals that each study intends to complete interim and primary analyses that at most include 164 participants. 

    These companies likely intend to apply for an emergency use authorization (EUA) from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) with just their limited preliminary results. 

    Interim analysis success requires a seventy percent efficacy. The vaccine or placebo will be given to thousands of people in each trial. For Moderna, the initial interim analysis will be based on the results of infection of only 53 people. The judgment reached in interim analysis is dependent upon the difference in the number of people with symptoms, which may be mild, in the vaccinated group versus the unvaccinated group.

    Moderna’s success margin is for 13 or less of those 53 to develop symptoms compared to 40 or more in their control group.  For Johnson & Johnson, their interim analysis includes 77 vaccine recipients, with a success margin of 18 or less developing symptoms compared to 59 in the control group. For AstraZeneca, their interim analysis includes 50 vaccine recipients, with a success margin of 12 or less developing symptoms compared to 19 in the 25 person control group.  Pfizer is even smaller in its success requirements. Their initial group includes 32 vaccine recipients, with a success margin of 7 or less developing symptoms compared to 25 in the control group. 

    The primary analyses are a bit more expanded, but need to be less efficacious for success: about sixty percent. AstraZeneca, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson, and Pfizer have primary analyses that distribute the vaccine to only 100, 151, 154, and 164 participants respectively. These companies state that they do not “intend” to stop trials after the primary analyses, but there is every chance that they intend to pursue an EUA and focus on manufacturing the vaccine rather than further thorough testing.

    The second surprise from these protocols is how mild the requirements for contracted Covid-19 symptoms are. A careful reading reveals that the minimum qualification for a case of Covid-19 is a positive PCR test and one or two mild symptoms. These include headache, fever, cough, or mild nausea. This is far from adequate. These vaccine trials are testing to prevent common cold symptoms. 

    These trials certainly do not give assurance that the vaccine will protect from the serious consequences of Covid-19. Johnson & Johnson is the only trial that requires the inclusion of severe Covid-19 cases, at least 5 for the 75 participant interim analysis.

    One of the more immediate questions a trial needs to answer is whether a vaccine prevents infection. If someone takes this vaccine, are they far less likely to become infected with the virus? These trials all clearly focus on eliminating symptoms of Covid-19, and not infections themselves. Asymptomatic infection is listed as a secondary objective in these trials when they should be of critical importance. 

    It appears that all the pharmaceutical companies assume that the vaccine will never prevent infection. Their criteria for approval is the difference in symptoms between an infected control group and an infected vaccine group. They do not measure the difference between infection and noninfection as a primary motivation.

    A greater concern for the millions of older people and those with preexisting conditions is whether these trials test the vaccine's ability to prevent severe illness and death. Again we find that severe illness and death are only secondary objectives in these trials. None list the prevention of death and hospitalization as a critically important barrier.

    If total infections, hospitalizations, and death are going to be ignored in the preliminary trials of the vaccines, then there must be phase four testing to monitor their safety and efficacy. This would be long term massive scale monitoring of the vaccine. There must be an indication that the authorized vaccines are reducing infection, hospitalization, and death, or else they will not be able to stop this pandemic.

    These protocols do not emphasize the most important ramifications of Covid-19 that people are most interested in preventing: overall infection, hospitalization, and death. It boggles the mind and defies common sense that the National Institute of Health, the Center for Disease Control, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, and the rest would consider the approval of a vaccine that would be distributed to hundreds of millions on such slender threads of success.

    It appears that these trials are intended to pass the lowest possible barrier of success. As this is being written, the FDA is poised to announce tougher standards for a Covid-19 vaccine in the near future. It is my hope that these new standards for an EUA will at a minimum include requirements for protections from infection itself, protections from severe virus-related disease leading to hospitalization, and a significant improvement in Covid-19 related mortality.

    It is clear from these studies that the vaccines currently under trial will not be the silver bullet needed to end the pandemic. We must do all we can public health measures to control Covid-19 as China and other Asian countries have successfully done.

    Correction (10/7/20): A former version of the article stated that 53 people received a vaccination for interim analysis in the Moderna trial. The vaccine was in fact given to thousands of people, with 53 being the number of people who must be infected with Covid-19 to run the analysis
    I read this when 23 posted it.  Certainly a bit disheartening, I would like to know if any more stringent trials with higher standards will be utilized before going public.
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
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    tbergstbergs Posts: 9,250
    This picture breaks my heart. It's from the ICU in a Houston hospital on Thanksgiving.

    Heart breaking 
    I was going to post the other day, but ended up not doing so. This was the last Thanksgiving my wife's grandma got the other day. Her last day before being put in the ICU and then passing late last night. It made us angry (fuck COVID), sad (dying alone) and thankful (to the nursing staff) all in one. My wife coordinated an immediate family zoom call with the nurse so we had a chance to talk with her Thanksgiving day since she was alone and couldn't have any visitors. She was on oxygen and barely able to speak, but we were so thankful she got to see and hear from us. The nurses were doing everything they could to connect those in the hospital with family members. It was brief, but ended up being the last time we would get to have any contact, even if just virtual. Seeing the nurse in full PPE and holding the iPad with grandma in the hospital bed full of tubes was sad and frustrating. These hospital staff are heroes.

    The whole situation was maddening. It all started about 2 weeks ago when she had coffee with her one good friend she was still getting together with on occasion. Two 80+ year olds who don't go anywhere or have any contact with basically anyone else. Unfortunately, her friend was asymptomatic at the time due to an exposure from her son.

    Her 88 year old husband of 60+ years wasn't even able to be with her in the end. A FaceTime call to say goodbye. We're hoping he doesn't get it now.

    Meanwhile I watched 4 car loads of people saunter in to our neighbor's house to enjoy a covid feast.

    Stay healthy and safe everyone.
    It's a hopeless situation...
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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
    tbergs said:
    This picture breaks my heart. It's from the ICU in a Houston hospital on Thanksgiving.

    Heart breaking 
    I was going to post the other day, but ended up not doing so. This was the last Thanksgiving my wife's grandma got the other day. Her last day before being put in the ICU and then passing late last night. It made us angry (fuck COVID), sad (dying alone) and thankful (to the nursing staff) all in one. My wife coordinated an immediate family zoom call with the nurse so we had a chance to talk with her Thanksgiving day since she was alone and couldn't have any visitors. She was on oxygen and barely able to speak, but we were so thankful she got to see and hear from us. The nurses were doing everything they could to connect those in the hospital with family members. It was brief, but ended up being the last time we would get to have any contact, even if just virtual. Seeing the nurse in full PPE and holding the iPad with grandma in the hospital bed full of tubes was sad and frustrating. These hospital staff are heroes.

    The whole situation was maddening. It all started about 2 weeks ago when she had coffee with her one good friend she was still getting together with on occasion. Two 80+ year olds who don't go anywhere or have any contact with basically anyone else. Unfortunately, her friend was asymptomatic at the time due to an exposure from her son.

    Her 88 year old husband of 60+ years wasn't even able to be with her in the end. A FaceTime call to say goodbye. We're hoping he doesn't get it now.

    Meanwhile I watched 4 car loads of people saunter in to our neighbor's house to enjoy a covid feast.

    Stay healthy and safe everyone.

    I'm very sorry to hear of your grandmother's passing, T.  That's hugely sad.  Best thoughts and wishes for you and yours.  Stay well.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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    God im so sorry for your loss and the horrible circumstances.  This is exactly  why it all makes me so so sad and  people who deny this virus are insane
     Real people are losing real loved ones.
    Strength to you tbergs. Heart breaking 
    brixton 93
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    this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
  • Options
    I guess all should  be
    Are animals used in the making of vaccines?  If they are, that must be quite a dilemma for vegans...
    Many vaccines are cultured in an egg medium, so people with egg allergies have to be cautious which vaccines they get. 
    Is the flu vaccine cultured in eggs???




    Some brands are, some are not. Where I work the health authority makes a certain number of the egg-free brand available for those who need it, but I can’t remember what it’s called. 
    In the video i posted about Canada with the pharmacist on. She says there are vegan flu jabs i believe
    brixton 93
    astoria 06
    albany 06
    hartford 06
    reading 06
    barcelona 06
    paris 06
    wembley 07
    dusseldorf 07
    nijmegen 07

    this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
  • Options
    oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,833
    tbergs said:
    This picture breaks my heart. It's from the ICU in a Houston hospital on Thanksgiving.

    Heart breaking 
    I was going to post the other day, but ended up not doing so. This was the last Thanksgiving my wife's grandma got the other day. Her last day before being put in the ICU and then passing late last night. It made us angry (fuck COVID), sad (dying alone) and thankful (to the nursing staff) all in one. My wife coordinated an immediate family zoom call with the nurse so we had a chance to talk with her Thanksgiving day since she was alone and couldn't have any visitors. She was on oxygen and barely able to speak, but we were so thankful she got to see and hear from us. The nurses were doing everything they could to connect those in the hospital with family members. It was brief, but ended up being the last time we would get to have any contact, even if just virtual. Seeing the nurse in full PPE and holding the iPad with grandma in the hospital bed full of tubes was sad and frustrating. These hospital staff are heroes.

    The whole situation was maddening. It all started about 2 weeks ago when she had coffee with her one good friend she was still getting together with on occasion. Two 80+ year olds who don't go anywhere or have any contact with basically anyone else. Unfortunately, her friend was asymptomatic at the time due to an exposure from her son.

    Her 88 year old husband of 60+ years wasn't even able to be with her in the end. A FaceTime call to say goodbye. We're hoping he doesn't get it now.

    Meanwhile I watched 4 car loads of people saunter in to our neighbor's house to enjoy a covid feast.

    Stay healthy and safe everyone.
    I’m really sorry to hear this, t. I’m glad you and your wife  at least had that last call. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Options
    23scidoo23scidoo Thessaloniki,Greece Posts: 18,535
    Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015.
    Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
    EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.

    I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
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    josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 28,315
    tbergs said:
    This picture breaks my heart. It's from the ICU in a Houston hospital on Thanksgiving.

    Heart breaking 
    I was going to post the other day, but ended up not doing so. This was the last Thanksgiving my wife's grandma got the other day. Her last day before being put in the ICU and then passing late last night. It made us angry (fuck COVID), sad (dying alone) and thankful (to the nursing staff) all in one. My wife coordinated an immediate family zoom call with the nurse so we had a chance to talk with her Thanksgiving day since she was alone and couldn't have any visitors. She was on oxygen and barely able to speak, but we were so thankful she got to see and hear from us. The nurses were doing everything they could to connect those in the hospital with family members. It was brief, but ended up being the last time we would get to have any contact, even if just virtual. Seeing the nurse in full PPE and holding the iPad with grandma in the hospital bed full of tubes was sad and frustrating. These hospital staff are heroes.

    The whole situation was maddening. It all started about 2 weeks ago when she had coffee with her one good friend she was still getting together with on occasion. Two 80+ year olds who don't go anywhere or have any contact with basically anyone else. Unfortunately, her friend was asymptomatic at the time due to an exposure from her son.

    Her 88 year old husband of 60+ years wasn't even able to be with her in the end. A FaceTime call to say goodbye. We're hoping he doesn't get it now.

    Meanwhile I watched 4 car loads of people saunter in to our neighbor's house to enjoy a covid feast.

    Stay healthy and safe everyone.
    Please accept my condolences on your loss! It didn’t have to be this way so many lives could of been saved..
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
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    mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 27,914
    So sorry for your loss tbergs.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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    hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
    I cannot imagine how her husband must feel. 

    My condolences to you and your family. 
  • Options
    OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,829
    Sorry to hear that, tbergs...my condolences.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
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    mfc2006mfc2006 HTOWN Posts: 37,385
    So sorry to hear that, tbergs. 
    Some people just aren’t taking it seriously at all, unfortunately. Ugh.
    I LOVE MUSIC.
    www.cluthelee.com
    www.cluthe.com
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    Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/28/asia/japan-suicide-women-covid-dst-intl-hnk/index.html


    In Japan, more people died from suicide last month than from Covid in all of 2020. And women have been impacted most


    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Options
    Because  they did the right thing  and got It under control 
    brixton 93
    astoria 06
    albany 06
    hartford 06
    reading 06
    barcelona 06
    paris 06
    wembley 07
    dusseldorf 07
    nijmegen 07

    this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
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    bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,548
    Because  they did the right thing  and got It under control 
    It begs the question though whether it was the right thing to do.  Not saying it isn’t but if more people died from the the response than the virus itself then one could make an argument.  You can’t know how many would have died though from Covid without extreme measures in place.  
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    benjsbenjs Toronto, ON Posts: 8,941
    Because  they did the right thing  and got It under control 
    It begs the question though whether it was the right thing to do.  Not saying it isn’t but if more people died from the the response than the virus itself then one could make an argument.  You can’t know how many would have died though from Covid without extreme measures in place.  
    Today in Japan:
    -Average population density of 346 people per square km
    -On track for 24,000 suicides this year
    -Just over 2,000 CoVID deaths this year

    Today in the USA:
    -Average population density of 36 people per square km
    -On track for an unknown number of suicides this year - presumably not lower than 2018's 46,000 (the last year data was reported)
    -Just over 265,000 CoVID deaths this year

    If you want to know how many in a high-density nation would've died without proper measures in place - just look at the US statistics. This doesn't beg any question. 
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
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    GlowGirlGlowGirl New York, NY Posts: 9,952
    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/11/pandemic-restrictions-no-logic/617204/

    This is an interesting article about the arbitrariness of pandemic restrictions. 
  • Options
    23scidoo23scidoo Thessaloniki,Greece Posts: 18,535
    edited November 2020
    Post edited by 23scidoo on
    Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015.
    Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
    EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.

    I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
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    23scidoo23scidoo Thessaloniki,Greece Posts: 18,535
    Cambodia..
    323 cases..
    0 deaths..
    you want to know why??..

    https://youtu.be/ghPKcAq0kX0
    Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015.
    Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
    EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.

    I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
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    rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    Because  they did the right thing  and got It under control 
    It begs the question though whether it was the right thing to do.  Not saying it isn’t but if more people died from the the response than the virus itself then one could make an argument.  You can’t know how many would have died though from Covid without extreme measures in place.  
    Japan has been grappling with a suicide problem for a while now.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
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    PJNBPJNB Posts: 12,830
    More Moderna info out today. Looking at Dec 21 to give to the most vulnerable Americans and still on track for spring for everyone else. 

    11 out of 15,000 got covid with the vaccine with zero severe cases 
    185 out of 15,000 got covid with the placebo with thirty severe cases and 1 death. 

    Efficacy of 94.1% against the virus and most importantly 100% efficacy against severe cases. 

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/absolutely-remarkable-no-one-who-got-modernas-vaccine-trial-developed-severe-covid-19
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