Fan-To-Fan Face Value Ticket Exchange

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Comments

  • MayDay10MayDay10 Posts: 11,604
    There is no choice.  That's their business model.
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ON Posts: 8,929
    MayDay10 said:
    I understand server and technology requirements, etc.

    It doesnt take away a deep mis-trust of ticketmaster/live nation/tickets.com, etc.  Whether its fees, good seats mysteriously unavailable and scalped, clicking on the images that show storefronts, etc.  Mis-trust based on numerous bad experiences in the past.  

    Hearing about 10c implementing a resale system powered by ticketmaster, my immediate reaction is how much are the "convenience" fees going to be and/or what % of the cut with TM take?  Maybe none?  It could be.  But right now, I have distrust.
    • One of the primary use cases for Captcha is to help prevent bots, but another is to help machine learning systems train their image recognitions. A particularly critical use case for image recognition is autonomous vehicles, so you should expect to see those even more. This is likely out of TM's court, and within Google's
    • If you've ever worked with inventory management systems, you'd know that what might look like malice from the outside, could very easily be glitches on the inside. In TM's case, I believe it could be a blend at this point
    • The fees are the fees. If TM has exclusives with venues PJ wants to play at, PJ probably has leverage to say "we'll use you for ticket management for our Club, but we want a reduced fee structure in return", to give TM a small piece of a pie (instead of all of no pie)
    • Whether or not Ticketmaster is behaving righteously today, I don't know how they could ever eradicate skepticism. What would be a demonstrable faith-restoring act from Ticketmaster; what would be enough to earn trust?
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • NM70698NM70698 Posts: 74
    Are assigned seat locations still a mystery until night of the show?  I've been out of the loop a long time.  Do a portion of seats still get assigned at random so that high number members have a shot at good seats?  Thanks.
  • BV84003BV84003 Holt, MI Posts: 360
    NM70698 said:
    Are assigned seat locations still a mystery until night of the show?  I've been out of the loop a long time.  Do a portion of seats still get assigned at random so that high number members have a shot at good seats?  Thanks.
    I think they said seat locations would be disclosed by the end of this month. They haven't said anything about random seat assignment, so I assume everything is by seniority.
    2003 Clarkston MI #2 | 2004 Grand Rapids MI | 2013 London ON | 2014 Detroit MI | 2016 Toronto ON #1
  • I wonder if all tickets (10C lottery, VF presale, public) will be subject to the Fan-to-Fan Face Value system.
    That's the potential weak link IMO--if TM gets an allotment for their own distribution (the public onsale tickets), I do not trust them not to hold back a portion of the best seats for themselves to put on the "Ticketmaster Verified Resale" market (also known as the "everybody's in on it scalping market")
  • benjs said:
    MayDay10 said:
    I understand server and technology requirements, etc.

    It doesnt take away a deep mis-trust of ticketmaster/live nation/tickets.com, etc.  Whether its fees, good seats mysteriously unavailable and scalped, clicking on the images that show storefronts, etc.  Mis-trust based on numerous bad experiences in the past.  

    Hearing about 10c implementing a resale system powered by ticketmaster, my immediate reaction is how much are the "convenience" fees going to be and/or what % of the cut with TM take?  Maybe none?  It could be.  But right now, I have distrust.
    • One of the primary use cases for Captcha is to help prevent bots, but another is to help machine learning systems train their image recognitions. A particularly critical use case for image recognition is autonomous vehicles, so you should expect to see those even more. This is likely out of TM's court, and within Google's
    • If you've ever worked with inventory management systems, you'd know that what might look like malice from the outside, could very easily be glitches on the inside. In TM's case, I believe it could be a blend at this point
    • The fees are the fees. If TM has exclusives with venues PJ wants to play at, PJ probably has leverage to say "we'll use you for ticket management for our Club, but we want a reduced fee structure in return", to give TM a small piece of a pie (instead of all of no pie)
    • Whether or not Ticketmaster is behaving righteously today, I don't know how they could ever eradicate skepticism. What would be a demonstrable faith-restoring act from Ticketmaster; what would be enough to earn trust?
    Does TM even use CAPTCHAs anymore?  When is the last time you bought tickets to a concert.  100% of big shows use a VWR or virtual waiting room these days.  Can't remember the last time I saw a CAPTCHA on ticketmaster.  Its not a bad thing, CAPTCHA was solvable by bots.  The VWR is a way better system for preventing ticket bots
    Gorge
  • foodboyfoodboy Posts: 988
    seat locations will now be given out as of jan 27th. for the first time you will know in advance. 

  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ON Posts: 8,929
    benjs said:
    MayDay10 said:
    I understand server and technology requirements, etc.

    It doesnt take away a deep mis-trust of ticketmaster/live nation/tickets.com, etc.  Whether its fees, good seats mysteriously unavailable and scalped, clicking on the images that show storefronts, etc.  Mis-trust based on numerous bad experiences in the past.  

    Hearing about 10c implementing a resale system powered by ticketmaster, my immediate reaction is how much are the "convenience" fees going to be and/or what % of the cut with TM take?  Maybe none?  It could be.  But right now, I have distrust.
    • One of the primary use cases for Captcha is to help prevent bots, but another is to help machine learning systems train their image recognitions. A particularly critical use case for image recognition is autonomous vehicles, so you should expect to see those even more. This is likely out of TM's court, and within Google's
    • If you've ever worked with inventory management systems, you'd know that what might look like malice from the outside, could very easily be glitches on the inside. In TM's case, I believe it could be a blend at this point
    • The fees are the fees. If TM has exclusives with venues PJ wants to play at, PJ probably has leverage to say "we'll use you for ticket management for our Club, but we want a reduced fee structure in return", to give TM a small piece of a pie (instead of all of no pie)
    • Whether or not Ticketmaster is behaving righteously today, I don't know how they could ever eradicate skepticism. What would be a demonstrable faith-restoring act from Ticketmaster; what would be enough to earn trust?
    Does TM even use CAPTCHAs anymore?  When is the last time you bought tickets to a concert.  100% of big shows use a VWR or virtual waiting room these days.  Can't remember the last time I saw a CAPTCHA on ticketmaster.  Its not a bad thing, CAPTCHA was solvable by bots.  The VWR is a way better system for preventing ticket bots
    I've seen both recently. I was just responding to MayDay10's specific concerns.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • foodboyfoodboy Posts: 988
    i don't think there will be much available on tm verified . unless it is a soft market location. public sale even less or almost none. just my 2 cents
  • tdawetdawe Posts: 1,990
    I wonder if all tickets (10C lottery, VF presale, public) will be subject to the Fan-to-Fan Face Value system.
    That's the potential weak link IMO--if TM gets an allotment for their own distribution (the public onsale tickets), I do not trust them not to hold back a portion of the best seats for themselves to put on the "Ticketmaster Verified Resale" market (also known as the "everybody's in on it scalping market")
    I just realized this myself - the "Verified Fan Presale" tickets are also transferable on the F2F face value exchange. So presumably it will all be one big pot, with both Ten Club and VF presale tickets available. It doesn't specify who can buy in this market, but presumably it's not just limited to Ten Club members, it will at least include the Verified Fans (and probably will/should include the general public). 

    But if they are serious about limiting it to face value + fees, I don't see the upside in TM holding back seats for themselves. I also assume this means that the presale at least won't be subject to the horseshit "dynamic pricing" model that so many other events now are, which is a good thing. 

    Obviously a lot can go wrong here but on the assumption that they're able to funnel both the Ten Club and presale tickets through a face-value exchange, this could be a pretty good thing overall. The one flaw has been identified - if you get crap seats you might not find it easy to resell them depending on how the supply/demand dynamics work out. There would be a simple fix to that one - instead of the exchange being face value only, you make the resales capped at face value, so people can list seats for lower if they want (just not higher).
  • pjl44pjl44 Posts: 7,958
    If something dastardly occurs, we should be extremely vocal about it. Until such time it does not do us any good to fret about every potential dastardly scenario. 
  • P-Town-P-Jam-FanP-Town-P-Jam-Fan Posts: 895
    edited January 2020
    I wonder if all tickets (10C lottery, VF presale, public) will be subject to the Fan-to-Fan Face Value system.
    That's the potential weak link IMO--if TM gets an allotment for their own distribution (the public onsale tickets), I do not trust them not to hold back a portion of the best seats for themselves to put on the "Ticketmaster Verified Resale" market (also known as the "everybody's in on it scalping market")
    Ticketmaster verified resale is only turned on if the band wants it turned on.  Pearl Jam would never allow this.  People have a miss-conception that TM controls how the seats are sold, which seats are released, which seats are held back and its just not the case.  All those decisions and directives generally come from the promoter which often times is Live Nation.  So as long as your favorite band isn't promoted by Live Nation (Pearl Jam is not), you don't have to worry about ticket manipulation.

    Dynamic ticket pricing is another example of something that is not controlled by Ticketmaster.  Dynamic pricing is only allowed of the artist or promoter gives TM the blessing to implement it.  Again, Peal Jam would never do this.
    Post edited by P-Town-P-Jam-Fan on
    Gorge
  • PJNB said:
    PJNB said:
    pjl44 said:
    PJNB said:
    You guys that are ok with this system and know you are going to a show are not factoring in that now a lot more people are going to be hurting your GA or reserved odds without a care. In the past if people did not know (most did this) they were going to be able to make a show they did not put in for it and waited till they knew to find at ticket on the forum. Now they will put in and just sell the ticket not caring that they hurt the odds and chances of people that they knew 100% for sure that they were going. There is a lot good with the new system that they have in place but this is an awful choice imo. 
    Oh, it's factored in. My counter-point would be that I'm not sure many people will be putting down many hundreds or even thousands of dollars to game the system in this way when their ability to make money off the strategy is basically nil. Sure, people will try but if Ten Club is diligent about voiding tickets posted for resale above face, this will be snuffed out.

    And, apparently improving our odds, there are more tickets available to Ten Club member than ever before.
    That's another risk for potential ticket hoarders. Tickets have become much pricier. Good point.
    And so has the secondary market. To secure a ticket I bet people would rather fork over the money now to up their odds and get payed back in the future without penalty then to have lower odds and have to go to Stubhub potentially. 

    I am not trying to be a debbie downer here and say the system will not work just yet. I  just see some obvious holes that I know will be exploited unfortunately. I am sure 10 club has thought of all angles so it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I am also sure 10 Club is sick of seeing people email them saying they want a refund or seeing good seats go to waste since the original ticket holder can no longer use them.
    What tickets are going to be on Stubhub?  Tickets are non-transferable even the public tickets.  Unless you are talking New York or Denver of course.
    Public sale are non transferable? 

    All tickets are non-transferable except in CO or NY.  10c, Verified Fan and public sale tickets.
    Gorge
  • I wonder if all tickets (10C lottery, VF presale, public) will be subject to the Fan-to-Fan Face Value system.
    That's the potential weak link IMO--if TM gets an allotment for their own distribution (the public onsale tickets), I do not trust them not to hold back a portion of the best seats for themselves to put on the "Ticketmaster Verified Resale" market (also known as the "everybody's in on it scalping market")
    Ticketmaster verified resale is only turned on if the band wants it turned on.  Pearl Jam would never allow this.  People have a miss-conception that TM controls how the seats are sold, which seats are released, which seats are held back and its just not the case.  All those decisions and directives generally come from the promoter which often times is Live Nation.  So as long as your favorite band isn't promoted by Live Nation (Pearl Jam is not), you don't have to worry about ticket manipulation.
    This is of course true, especially with respect to the band and its promotion ultimately having control over TVR and Dynamic/Platinum Pricing.  Honestly I'm just a bit cynical over how many bands are nominally against scalping but in practice don't put common sense safeguards in place to prevent it (if they want to--personally I don't care if a band allows their tickets to be scalped, I just get irritated with bands--cough, DMB, cough--that proclaim they're anti-scalping then allow their tickets to be scalped as hard as any other band's).

    If there's any band that's earned the benefit of the doubt and a wait and see approach on this topic, it's PJ.
  • I wonder if all tickets (10C lottery, VF presale, public) will be subject to the Fan-to-Fan Face Value system.
    That's the potential weak link IMO--if TM gets an allotment for their own distribution (the public onsale tickets), I do not trust them not to hold back a portion of the best seats for themselves to put on the "Ticketmaster Verified Resale" market (also known as the "everybody's in on it scalping market")
    Ticketmaster verified resale is only turned on if the band wants it turned on.  Pearl Jam would never allow this.  People have a miss-conception that TM controls how the seats are sold, which seats are released, which seats are held back and its just not the case.  All those decisions and directives generally come from the promoter which often times is Live Nation.  So as long as your favorite band isn't promoted by Live Nation (Pearl Jam is not), you don't have to worry about ticket manipulation.
    This is of course true, especially with respect to the band and its promotion ultimately having control over TVR and Dynamic/Platinum Pricing.  Honestly I'm just a bit cynical over how many bands are nominally against scalping but in practice don't put common sense safeguards in place to prevent it (if they want to--personally I don't care if a band allows their tickets to be scalped, I just get irritated with bands--cough, DMB, cough--that proclaim they're anti-scalping then allow their tickets to be scalped as hard as any other band's).

    If there's any band that's earned the benefit of the doubt and a wait and see approach on this topic, it's PJ.
    I agree 100%.  So many of these bands secretly or not so secretly scalp their own tickets and pretend like they don't.  If you are a Live Nation performer like Taylor Swift, you have 0 control over your tickets.  Live Nation offers big guaranteed contracts - and in turn, they control all aspects of selling the tickets.  That means, 8 different levels of VIP tickets, Platinum seats in the 300 level, dynamically priced tickets, etc.  Anytime you see those being offered, the band is scalping their own tickets through Ticketmaster's system and letting Ticketmaster take all the negative publicity that comes from non-educated fans.
    Gorge
  • gatorjamgatorjam West Palm Beach, Florida Posts: 187
    PJNB said:
    bbiggs said:
    bbiggs said:
    This process still seems to lack clarity on whether or not ONE individual ticket can be sold in the fan-to-fan exchange. Example:  I buy a pair for myself and concert buddy. Concert buddy bails, but I still want to attend the show. Ideally, I can sell that unused ticket that was supposed to be for my concert buddy (face value via TM fan to fan exchange). Has anyone confirmed that this is acceptable or not? And I have thoroughly read all of the rules. This is not spelled out. 
    It's not clear yet. Worst case, you'd post on Lost Dogs and find a new buddy in minutes. Only issue would be meeting them outside the show as you'd have to walk in together.
    Good point. Meeting up at the venue is a must though. Not complaining, but I think having the ability to sell one via TM fan to fan would have made a lot of sense for situations like I described in my original post. 
    What happens when your plus 1 does not want to wait in the GA line all day and you do? Is that person just going to skip the line now and go to the front since we have to go together? 
    You find another plus one?
    2003-Tampa
    2006-East Rutherford
    2008-West Palm Beach
    2009- Philadelphia
    2016- Fort Lauderdale and Miami
  • PJNBPJNB Posts: 12,625
    PJNB said:
    PJNB said:
    pjl44 said:
    PJNB said:
    You guys that are ok with this system and know you are going to a show are not factoring in that now a lot more people are going to be hurting your GA or reserved odds without a care. In the past if people did not know (most did this) they were going to be able to make a show they did not put in for it and waited till they knew to find at ticket on the forum. Now they will put in and just sell the ticket not caring that they hurt the odds and chances of people that they knew 100% for sure that they were going. There is a lot good with the new system that they have in place but this is an awful choice imo. 
    Oh, it's factored in. My counter-point would be that I'm not sure many people will be putting down many hundreds or even thousands of dollars to game the system in this way when their ability to make money off the strategy is basically nil. Sure, people will try but if Ten Club is diligent about voiding tickets posted for resale above face, this will be snuffed out.

    And, apparently improving our odds, there are more tickets available to Ten Club member than ever before.
    That's another risk for potential ticket hoarders. Tickets have become much pricier. Good point.
    And so has the secondary market. To secure a ticket I bet people would rather fork over the money now to up their odds and get payed back in the future without penalty then to have lower odds and have to go to Stubhub potentially. 

    I am not trying to be a debbie downer here and say the system will not work just yet. I  just see some obvious holes that I know will be exploited unfortunately. I am sure 10 club has thought of all angles so it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I am also sure 10 Club is sick of seeing people email them saying they want a refund or seeing good seats go to waste since the original ticket holder can no longer use them.
    What tickets are going to be on Stubhub?  Tickets are non-transferable even the public tickets.  Unless you are talking New York or Denver of course.
    Public sale are non transferable? 

    All tickets are non-transferable except in CO or NY.  10c, Verified Fan and public sale tickets.
    I am reading the fineprint right now and see that. That is fucking amazing if they can pull this off!
  • tschavtschav Posts: 2,759
    While it’s fair to think some people will hoard or try new techniques, there’s a more robust tracking system of 10c account activity - from tickets not being used or excessive transfer/sale activity. 

    I doubt 10c/TM would get involved frequently, but they theoretically have a better handle on identifying accounts that are not attending the shows they buy...

    Oh hey there’s my tinfoil hat!
  • MayDay10MayDay10 Posts: 11,604
    Drone strikes on those who abuse the ticket system
  • Sharon_Hearts_PJSharon_Hearts_PJ Bristol, PA Posts: 1,383
    bbiggs said:
    This process still seems to lack clarity on whether or not ONE individual ticket can be sold in the fan-to-fan exchange. Example:  I buy a pair for myself and concert buddy. Concert buddy bails, but I still want to attend the show. Ideally, I can sell that unused ticket that was supposed to be for my concert buddy (face value via TM fan to fan exchange). Has anyone confirmed that this is acceptable or not? And I have thoroughly read all of the rules. This is not spelled out. 

    I think your best bet is just going to be to find someone, either here on the forum or via Facebook, to meet up with at the show, have them hand you money (or venmo, whatever) and walk in with you.
    *Rock and/or Roll!*
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 10,524
    I wonder if all tickets (10C lottery, VF presale, public) will be subject to the Fan-to-Fan Face Value system.
    That's the potential weak link IMO--if TM gets an allotment for their own distribution (the public onsale tickets), I do not trust them not to hold back a portion of the best seats for themselves to put on the "Ticketmaster Verified Resale" market (also known as the "everybody's in on it scalping market")
    Ticketmaster verified resale is only turned on if the band wants it turned on.  Pearl Jam would never allow this.  People have a miss-conception that TM controls how the seats are sold, which seats are released, which seats are held back and its just not the case.  All those decisions and directives generally come from the promoter which often times is Live Nation.  So as long as your favorite band isn't promoted by Live Nation (Pearl Jam is not), you don't have to worry about ticket manipulation.

    Dynamic ticket pricing is another example of something that is not controlled by Ticketmaster.  Dynamic pricing is only allowed of the artist or promoter gives TM the blessing to implement it.  Again, Peal Jam would never do this.
    You make many good points.
    It's always funny to me all the people on here, and elsewhere, who act like TM is conspiring against them specifically. 
  • patkelly12patkelly12 CT Posts: 338
    Can we wait to see that there is no Platinum Pricing before we assume " the band would never do this"?  I remember when the NY DA was working for the little guy when they went after Ticketmaster. Did everyone enjoy those lawn seats you got in the settlement? And why would NY prohibit mandatory ticket-less entry? I assume it was to help out the little guy. I just haven't figured out how. I just know they care about the little guy.
  • release00release00 Posts: 342
    If I put in for 1 10c msg ticket and get it but then find out I can’t make it, can I sell it on the ticket exchange?
    "So much it dont show"
  • SpokenSpoken Posts: 1,440
    Is the fan-to-fan exchange exclusive to 10C members or is it open to the public as well?
    Hi did this get answered?
  • So if I'm a very ancient/tenured 10c member and want to be a really nice dude, i'll buy tix to all the shows, and those shows I can't attend go back into the pot for 10 club members only to buy via the exchange? Or can anyone buy them on ticketmaster exchange after I post them to the exchange? thx, Otto 
  • Spoken said:
    Is the fan-to-fan exchange exclusive to 10C members or is it open to the public as well?
    Hi did this get answered?
    It's open to the public. All tickets for these shows can only be sold on the ticket exchange
  • SpokenSpoken Posts: 1,440
    Hi, can you sell your two tickets to a friend on the Fan-To-Fan Face Value Ticket Exchange?
    Has that been answered?
  • SpokenSpoken Posts: 1,440
    Spoken said:
    Is the fan-to-fan exchange exclusive to 10C members or is it open to the public as well?
    Hi did this get answered?
    It's open to the public. All tickets for these shows can only be sold on the ticket exchange
    Hi thanks for answering the question :)
    Can you sell your two tickets to a friend on the Fan-To-Fan Face Value Ticket Exchange?
    Do you know?
  • CPR7CPR7 Stade de France, July 10, 2016 Posts: 361
    Spoken said:
    Spoken said:
    Is the fan-to-fan exchange exclusive to 10C members or is it open to the public as well?
    Hi did this get answered?
    It's open to the public. All tickets for these shows can only be sold on the ticket exchange
    Hi thanks for answering the question :)
    Can you sell your two tickets to a friend on the Fan-To-Fan Face Value Ticket Exchange?
    Do you know?
    I don't think so. Your tickets gets "sold" back to TM and then it enters their system and is up for grabs for anybody to purchase. 
  • In2DeepIn2Deep Posts: 496
    The email states: "All tickets on this tour will be mobile only, non-transferable tickets (except in NY and CO where transferability is required by state law)."  So I'm rather lost as to where we are getting that 10C tix can be transferred on this exchange?  I know you can sell the public ones, but there is some contradiction in the email about 10C not being transferable.  Hoping my email to 10C will clarify before I put in for anything I'm not 100% I can really attend, but want. :anguished:
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