The Democratic Presidential Debates

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  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    one of my more favourite quotes of the last few years: "just because you're outraged, doesn't make you right". 
    I'm not sure what your point is: are you claiming he didn't refer to a trans woman as a man? Or that him doing so is ok?
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    It's typical in these type of arguments. I can't be for mostly for LGBTQ rights, but be against the specific instance of transwomen competing against women in sports. That'd be straying from the herd. 
    Many people draw similar distinctions (I'm pro-X except in this case); many people also grossly overestimate how pro-X they are. There's a lot of overlap in that Venn Diagram. 
  • ecdanc said:
    I'm not sure what your point is: are you claiming he didn't refer to a trans woman as a man? Or that him doing so is ok?
    You're arguing semantics. I've made it quite clear I'm arguing that from a physical standpoint, a transwoman has the physical makeup of a man. And while that is not relevant in another aspect of her life, it is if she's competing in spors against women.

    But I know your type. So keeping arguinig with Hugh that I'm a bigot, or flag my post, or tag the moderator or whatever. Cancel away.

    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024Philly 2

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
    http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    edited January 2020
    You're arguing semantics. I've made it quite clear I'm arguing that from a physical standpoint, a transwoman has the physical makeup of a man. And while that is not relevant in another aspect of her life, it is if she's competing in spors against women.

    But I know your type. So keeping arguinig with Hugh that I'm a bigot, or flag my post, or tag the moderator or whatever. Cancel away.
    You can call it "semantics" if you want; I'm simply reading what you said. Your efforts to justify that statement merely sink further into a morass of offensive statements. If a trans woman is a woman, then her body is a woman's body. She, by definition, has the "physical makeup" of a woman. Short women have women's bodies; tall women have women's bodies; trans women have women's bodies. 
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,295
    edited January 2020
    mrussel1 said:
    Give it a fucking rest.   

    In a few hours 135 unread? Like wth happened here. Did someone stumble into this topic with an extra MSG ticket?
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814

    In a few hours 135 unread? Like wth happened here. Did someone stumble into this topic with an extra MSG ticket?
    I'm putting it on Stubhub just for you!
  • ecdanc said:
    You can call it "semantics" if you want; I'm simply reading what you said. Your efforts to justify that statement merely sink further into a morass of offensive statements. If a trans woman is a woman, then her body is a woman's body. She, by definition, has the "physical makeup" of a woman. Short women have women's bodies; tall women have women's bodies; trans women have women's bodies. 
    Well I disagree but I've already explained why so I won't go on and on. You just keep fighting the good fight against us bigots. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024Philly 2

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
    http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 43,048
    Everything in life can’t be completely ”fair” and a society that is made for and to include a huge amount of individuals can’t and doesn’t have to in every detail serve or fit specifically you. 
    I think. Cis Woman should be able to compete in a sports environment against those who havent spent a lifetime being fueled by biological male levels of testosterone as that hormone is used differently by the respective biological human.....
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,167
    edited January 2020
    ecdanc said:
    You can call it "semantics" if you want; I'm simply reading what you said. Your efforts to justify that statement merely sink further into a morass of offensive statements. If a trans woman is a woman, then her body is a woman's body. She, by definition, has the "physical makeup" of a woman. Short women have women's bodies; tall women have women's bodies; trans women have women's bodies. 
    Do you try to get what @Ledbetterman10 is arguing? Outside of the language used.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    Do you try to get what @Ledbetterman10 is arguing? Outside of the language used.
    Yes, I absolutely get what he is trying to argue. I think his premises are so flawed that I'm ignoring his conclusion. Put differently, he's building what I consider to be an offensive position by relying on other things that I consider to be offensive.  
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    edited January 2020
    mickeyrat said:
    I think. Cis Woman should be able to compete in a sports environment against those who havent spent a lifetime being fueled by biological male levels of testosterone as that hormone is used differently by the respective biological human.....
    I contend that such a position is irreconcilable with a full recognition of transgender equality. 

    EDIT: I'd add that the position you're espousing is aligned closely with TERFs, with whom I strongly disagree. 
    Post edited by ecdanc on
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,295
    ecdanc said:
    I'm putting it on Stubhub just for you!
    You da best!
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,955
    edited January 2020
    Do you try to get what @Ledbetterman10 is arguing? Outside of the language used.

    You were kind of giving me the same pushback too, though....

    Maybe your number one concern in that sport then should be that everyone should wear helmets?

    because cis men can get very hurt by cis men too. 

    But I take it you're feeling now that my premise is fine, but you don't like wording?
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024Philly 2

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
    http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,167
    edited January 2020

    You were kind of giving me the same pushback too, though....


    But I take it you're feeling now that my premise is fine, but you don't like wording?
    On the pushback -- I think you could have used "transwoman" instead of "man" in the context. Out of some kind of respect. And this came after a discussion you were just involved with about the topic. If I am not mistaken. But I also understand what you are arguing. And I also understand that you can't be 100% correct all the time and always be living up to the standard of "absolutely perfect and absolutely up to date".

    The second thing. I just find the argument of "safety risks" being odd -- when it is about competition. And then shouldn't the argument start and stop with - the playing field is too different for it to be fair.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    Well I disagree but I've already explained why so I won't go on and on. You just keep fighting the good fight against us bigots. 
    I'm happy to let this drop, but I do encourage you to keep thinking about these issues. You operate with a very binary sense of what (physically) is a man and a woman. As we continue to progress, you may find that stance alienates more and more people. Have a good day. 
  • On the pushback -- I think you could have used "transwoman" instead of "man" in the context. Out of some kind of respect. But I also understand what you are saying. And I also understand that you can't be 100% correct all the time and living up to the standard of "absolutely perfect and absolutely up to date".

    The second thing. I just find the argument of "safety risks" being odd -- when it is about competition. And then shouldn't the argument start and stop with - the playing field is to different for it to be fair.
    Well again, I said my peace on transwomen competing in combat sport competitions against ciswomen (see, I looked it up) so it'd be pointless to repeat myself. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024Philly 2

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
    http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,487

    In a few hours 135 unread? Like wth happened here. Did someone stumble into this topic with an extra MSG ticket?
    You missed the edited post where I was told "go fuck yourself" and Ledbetter was called a bigot.  So yeah, shit went pretty side wise on a topic that could have been interesting.  
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,487
    On the pushback -- I think you could have used "transwoman" instead of "man" in the context. Out of some kind of respect. And this came after a discussion you were just involved with about the topic. If I am not mistaken. But I also understand what you are arguing. And I also understand that you can't be 100% correct all the time and always be living up to the standard of "absolutely perfect and absolutely up to date".

    The second thing. I just find the argument of "safety risks" being odd -- when it is about competition. And then shouldn't the argument start and stop with - the playing field is too different for it to be fair.
    Yes, it could and should be.  But that wasn't working so the point I was making, and others I believe, is that there are certain sports where the physical nature is such that it actually could present a safety risk to a cis woman.  Certainly boxing, MMA, and even hockey.  Imagine if PK Suppan or Zdeno Chara decided they were going to play women's hockey and started replacement therapy.  It would be a serious health risk at world class competition, far higher than the inherent risk to the game.  

  • "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
    You missed the edited post where I was told "go fuck yourself" and Ledbetter was called a bigot.  So yeah, shit went pretty side wise on a topic that could have been interesting.  
    I removed those and apologized. 
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,955
    edited January 2020
    ecdanc said:
    I'm happy to let this drop, but I do encourage you to keep thinking about these issues. You operate with a very binary sense of what (physically) is a man and a woman. As we continue to progress, you may find that stance alienates more and more people. Have a good day. 
    You operate with a very narrowminded and scientifically ignorant sense of what (physically) is a man and a woman. Read up if you want...https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jos/2011/702735/

    Have a good day!
    Post edited by Ledbetterman10 on
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024Philly 2

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
    http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
  • ecdancecdanc Posts: 1,814
    You operate with a very narrowminded and scientifically ignorant sense of what (physically) is a man and a woman. Read up if you want...https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jos/2011/702735/

    Have a good day!
    I’m not a scientist, so could you please summarize this article in laymen’s terms, then explain how it supports your claims. 

  • "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,062
    ecdanc said:
    Bernie Sanders's acceptance of the Joe Rogan nomination seems on topic--many leftists are talking about how problematic him accepting that endorsement is (Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor had an especially insightful Twitter thread about it recently)--it's problematic precisely because of his racism and anti-trans statements--ergo, we're on topic! 

    No, you got into an argument over whether or no Rogan is this or that.  That is not on topic.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,062
    So... anyone excited about Yang?

    :smiley:
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 30,487
    brianlux said:

    :smiley:
    Im open to hearing more.  I think the monthly"freedom dividend" is a terrible idea though.  Maybe that was just to get people to notice. 
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,295
    ecdanc said:
    I removed those and apologized. 


    I’ll take the heat for that . I’ve been pricing a hypothetical Quebec trip and blowing smoke on porch. I’ve been bitching about the lack of nyc shows, and I’m likely going to Balt. I’m a spoiled brat. My fault.

    hey how about the lack of klobuchar discussions?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 38,921
    Was it birther-Rogan who said it?
    i don't think so. 
    "every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"




  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,062

    Smart, energetic, sensible, articulate, willing to listen, diplomatic- I love this guy.  The movement is building!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 38,921
    ecdanc said:
    I'm not sure what your point is: are you claiming he didn't refer to a trans woman as a man? Or that him doing so is ok?
    because you think you get to decide what level of 'ally' i am. you don't. just like you don't get to keep labeling people simply because they don't support your view 100%. 
    "every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"




This discussion has been closed.