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The Democratic Candidates

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    Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    edited June 2019
    Why should people reparations be paid when no one alive today is responsible for slavery?  The only reparations I endorse is those that would get paid to 1st nations people's...in a roundabout way, reparations are paid...but it is nowhere enough to compensate 1 st nations for the loss of their land, that all of us occupy...
    Give Peas A Chance…
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    KatKat There's a lot to be said for nowhere. Posts: 4,772
    PJ_Soul said:
    Regarding reparations and radical beliefs about the US:


    Soooo.... it reinforces reality?
    That's what I thought too. Whether they intended it or not could be debatable for some of the founding fathers but it's exactly what our sad history shows.
    Falling down,...not staying down
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    Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 29,072
    edited June 2019
    Kat said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Regarding reparations and radical beliefs about the US:


    Soooo.... it reinforces reality?
    That's what I thought too. Whether they intended it or not could be debatable for some of the founding fathers but it's exactly what our sad history shows.
    That tweet reads like a Bill O’Reilly parody account tweet. 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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    mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 27,904
    edited June 2019
    Why should people reparations be paid when no one alive today is responsible for slavery?  The only reparations I endorse is those that would get paid to 1st nations people's...in a roundabout way, reparations are paid...but it is nowhere enough to compensate 1 st nations for the loss of their land, that all of us occupy...
    Agreed.  The reparation idea for slaves is not a good idea.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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    Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 29,072
    Why should people reparations be paid when no one alive today is responsible for slavery?  The only reparations I endorse is those that would get paid to 1st nations people's...in a roundabout way, reparations are paid...but it is nowhere enough to compensate 1 st nations for the loss of their land, that all of us occupy...
    Have you read up on the reasons people who are for reperations give?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,315
    Why should people reparations be paid when no one alive today is responsible for slavery?  The only reparations I endorse is those that would get paid to 1st nations people's...in a roundabout way, reparations are paid...but it is nowhere enough to compensate 1 st nations for the loss of their land, that all of us occupy...
    They gotta stop talking about stuff like this. 
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,315
    edited June 2019
    I feel like I could've written this myself. Everything seems so obvious....but then again, this party LOVES losing elections they should have in the bag:
    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/06/25/democrats-trump-election-2020-227215

    Dear Democrats, Here’s How to Guarantee Trump’s Reelection

    1. Hold firmly to the idea that Twitter is the beating heart of the real Democratic Party.

    Woke Twitter is convinced that anger over Trump means that voters want to move hard left. You should ignore polls showing that most Democrats, not to mention swing voters, are much more likely to be centrist.

    2. Embrace the weird.

    George Will carries around a small card listing all the things that you have said “that cause the American public to say: ‘These people are weird, they are not talking about things that I care about.’” A short list:

    Terrorists in prison should be allowed to vote. End private health insurance. Pack the Supreme Court, abolish the Electoral College, ‘Green New Deal,’ … reparations for slavery.

    “The country hears these individually,” says Will, “and they say I’m not for that.”

    He’s going to need a bigger card.

    3. Keep promising lots of free stuff and don’t sweat paying for it.

    Trump and his fellow Republicans have run up massive deficits, but you can make them look like fiscal hawks by outbidding one another. People like free stuff, but they are less keen on having to pay for free stuff for other people, so talk as much as possible about having taxpayers pick up the tab for free college, day care and health care.

    By one estimate, Elizabeth Warren’s various plans would cost about $3.6 trillion a year—or $36.5 trillion over 10 years. She insists she can pay for much of this with a vast new wealth tax that is politically impossible and constitutionally dubious, but, hey, at least she’s not Bernie.

    4. Go ahead and abolish private health insurance.

    Health care should be a huge winner for Democrats in 2020, as it was in 2018. But you can turn that around by embracing a Bernie Sanders-like ‘Medicare for All’ plan.

    Sure, the idea polls well and is wildly popular in MSNBC green rooms. But, unfortunately, when voters find out that it would double payroll taxes, cost trillions of dollars and lead to the abolition of private health insurance, support plummets—even among Democratic primary voters. In fact, when Democratic primary voters are told that Medicare for All would cost $3.2 trillion a year, support drops to just 38 percent. And that is among Democrats.

    The numbers are even worse with the wider electorate. The Kaiser Tracking Poll found that Medicare for All’s net favorability drops to minus 44 percent “when people hear the argument that this would lead to delays in some people getting some medical tests and treatments.” Voters also turn sharply against the idea when they are told that it would threaten the current Medicare program, require big tax increases and eliminate private health insurance. Count on the GOP to spend hundreds of millions of dollars making those arguments.

    5. Spend time talking about reparations.

    There may be no magic bullet to guarantee Trump’s reelection, but support for reparations for slavery may be awfully close. Even before Charlottesville, Trump’s record on race was horrific, and his winking appeasement of the white nationalist alt-right has been a running theme of Trumpism. But Democrats can neutralize Trump’s most glaring weaknesses by redoubling their support for reparations.

    You have already made the hyperdivisive issue a big theme of the campaign and the Democratic House seems poised to pass legislationcalling for a study of the issue. As POLITICO reported: “Support for considering reparations has also quickly gained support in the 2020 Democratic primary, with contenders like Senators Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris expressing their interest in Texas Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee’s plan. It’s a stark shift from previous presidential campaigns in which Barack Obama opposed reparations.“

    The problems here are obvious. No one really knows how reparations would work. The historic wrongs committed against African Americans are undoubtedly unique, but as the debate heats up, the questions will be: Who pays? Who is owed? How do we pick the winners and losers? And then there are other inevitable questions: Who else? The Irish? Jews? Native Americans? Asian Americans? Gays and lesbians?

    What is clear, however, is that reparations are opposed by somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of white voters, so your support is a huge gift to Trump’s reelection campaign, which would like nothing more than to drive a deeper wedge between black and white Americans.



    Post edited by The Juggler on
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,315
    edited June 2019

    ^continued

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/06/25/democrats-trump-election-2020-227215

    Dear Democrats, Here’s How to Guarantee Trump’s Reelection



    6. Trump thinks that immigration and the crisis at the border are winning issues for him. They aren’t. But you can turn that around.

    Trump is actually underwater on the immigration issue. In a recent Fox News poll, 50 percent of Americans said Trump has gone too far, more than double the number of voters who think he hasn’t been aggressive enough. Family separations continue to shock the conscience of the nation and his threats to round up millions of illegals could backfire badly on him. Moreover, huge majorities favor giving legal status to the so-called Dreamers.

    But you can flip the script: instead of talking about Dreamers, talk as much as possible about your support for sanctuary cities, double down on proposals to abolish Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and be as vague as possible about whether or not you really do support open borders.

    7. Lots more focus on Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

    By no means allow voters to hear more about centrists who actually swung the House like Abigail Spanberger in Virginia, Mikie Sherrill in New Jersey or Dean Phillips in Minnesota. Trump wants nothing more than to make AOC the face of the Democratic Party. You can make it happen.

    8. Socialism.

    Trump will accuse Democrats of being socialists who want to turn the United States into Venezuela. This is a tired, implausible trope. But you can make it work for him by actually calling yourself socialists and loudly booing your fellow Democrats who suggest that “socialism is not the answer.”

    9. Turn the abortion issue from a winner into a loser.

    Polls suggest that there is wide opposition to overturning Roe v. Wade and Republicans have drastically overreached in states like Alabama where they have outlawed abortion even in cases of rape and incest.

    But here again, Democrats can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by moving to a hard-line maximalist position. While the public leans pro-choice, its views are quite nuanced. So, instead of talking about abortion as “safe, legal, and rare,” you should demand the legalization of late-term abortions, focus on taxpayer funding and express as much contempt as possible for people with different views.

    A model for this is Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, who compares being anti-abortion to being racist. When she was asked whether her pro-choice litmus test for judges threatened their independence, she said:

    “I think there’s some issues that have such moral clarity that we have as a society decided that the other side is not acceptable. Imagine saying that it’s OK to appoint a judge who’s racist or anti-Semitic or homophobic. Telling or asking someone to appoint someone who takes away basic human rights of any group of people in America, I don’t think that those are political issues anymore.”

    You might recall how Hillary Clinton’s “deplorables” comment played in 2016; this time around, Democrats can convey their contempt for much larger groups of people, which will be immensely helpful to Trump’s efforts to convince his base and swing voters that Democrats look down on them

    10. You can also turn a winner into a loser on the issue of guns.

    There is a growing bipartisan constituency for reasonable restrictions on guns, including overwhelming support for expanded background checks. Trump’s GOP is especially vulnerable here because it remains a wholly-owned subsidiary of the National Rifle Association, which is stumbling under the weight of its own extremism and grift these days.

    But you can easily turn this into a firewall for Trump by joining Senator Cory Booker’s call for vast expansions of the licensing of guns and banning certain kinds of weapons. Under Booker’s plan, “a person seeking to buy a gun would need to apply for a license in much the same way one applies for a passport.”


    11. As you try to get Americans more alarmed about Trump’s attacks on democratic norms, make sure you talk as much as possible about your support for court-packing.

    Tinkering with the makeup and independence of the Supreme Court hasn’t been a winning issue since 1937, but, waving the bloody shirt of Merrick Garland as often as possible still feels satisfying, doesn’t it?

    Given Trump’s deep unpopularity, losing to him won’t be easy. But don’t despair; remember, you managed to pull it off in 2016.

    Post edited by The Juggler on
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    PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo Face Posts: 6,499
    Thanks Juggler, lots of truth there.
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    OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,829
    edited June 2019
    On the above list:
    1. Agree...the hard-left's prevalence in social media is probably like the "Liberal Slaying" Trump lovers...be careful in assuming how representative they are.
    2. Agree.  
    3. Agree.
    4. I want private health insurance ended but it's not going to happen soon...pragmatism is a necessary evil. Agree.
    5. There's some nuance here.  Voters don't do nuance.  Agree.
    6. Trickier.  I think the concentration camps need to be part of what they hit Trump with. Kind of agree, but kind of nervous.
    7. Agree.  They entire GOP and Trump base is in a tizzy about maybe three or four democrats...don't let them be the poster.
    8. Agree.  Particularly that it's a tired trope.  But to say "hell yeah, we are..." that word scares people for a reason.
    9. Kind of agree. Generally, I think the Dems place on abortion is slightly advantageous but I do agree that moderates aren't buying that pro-birth people are trying to control women, etc.  Sell the position, don't demonize the opponents and don't appear gung-ho about late-term, etc.
    10. Disagree. Guns is a loser for them.  #2A FTW!  Just try to avoid it as much as possible.
    11. Sadly agree.  Swing voters don't care and probably don't even recognize the hypocrisy around Merrick Garland.  The only people that are truly upset about it are already on board. 
    That article is on the money.  The Dems are a legitimate threat to shoot themselves in the foot on the majority of those issues.
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,315
    PJPOWER said:
    Thanks Juggler, lots of truth there.
    Going too far to the left decreases their chances
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    Jason PJason P Posts: 19,123
    There are still over 500 days before the election.  I wouldn't worry too much right about democrat candidates going after each other instead of trump right now.  It's exactly what they should be doing.  Either concede to Biden and go home or go knives out.  2nd place is first loser.
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    Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,649
    PJPOWER said:
    Thanks Juggler, lots of truth there.
    Going too far to the left decreases their chances
    That’s why gillibrand, booker and Warren won’t be the party’s nominee. There’s so much that can and will happen between now and the convention. Primary voters are not all far left and the interesting thing will be to see who gets What speaking time slots at the convention. Does AOC get a prime time 8:00 pm slot or relegated to 2:00 pm? Will they temper themselves or go full on radical left? Dems shouldn’t run from the green new deal either, just talk about it matter of factly and have a plan to transition. Fun times.
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    PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo Face Posts: 6,499
    edited June 2019
    PJPOWER said:
    Thanks Juggler, lots of truth there.
    Going too far to the left decreases their chances
    Exactly, it essentially splits the party as seen in 2016.  The right had that going on with the “Tea Party” for a while.  The “Dems” are splintering  into these hardline single issue focused minority groups that cannot get along with each other or give an inch.  I’ve lost count as to how many of them are literally and selfishly working against each other to try and be the next president...What a circus.
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
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    mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 27,904
    Solid article juggler.
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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    HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer Maryland Posts: 16,419
    edited June 2019
    I'd just like to say that I am fucking fed up with all American politics, democraps and repugnicans.
    NONE :clap: OF :clap: THEM :clap: ARE :clap: ON :clap: OUR :clap: SIDE :clap:!
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    Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 29,072
    I'd just like to say that I am fucking fed up with all American politics, democraps and repugnicans.
    NONE :clap: OF :clap: THEM :clap: ARE :clap: ON :clap: OUR :clap: SIDE :clap:!

    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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    PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,580
    edited June 2019
    Yeah, a few of them are on your side. AOC is. Elizabeth Warren is. I suspect even Bernie Sanders still is. A few others. Not many at all.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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    Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 29,072
    edited June 2019
    Power corrupts. Power make you numb. Power make you lose sight. Power make you lethargic.

    I think most politicians are like rockbands. They have one or two albums in them. And then the creative energy and passion they had built up from when they were kids are spent, it becomes a career and they struggle to care or replenish the passion.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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    cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,120
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, a few of them are on your side. AOC is. Elizabeth Warren is. I suspect even Bernie Sanders still is. A few others. Not many at all.
    They are not on my side.  I think you might be picking what's important to you and would benefit you and applying it to others. If any of those people were elected president and went full on bat shit crazy like trump and just forced through their agenda without compromise, I'd most certainly be worse off in many respects.  I guess you could say that about just about any of the candidates in some ways.  But these people you mention are no different then others, they have picked their team and want to benefit them.  
    hippiemom = goodness
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    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,665
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, a few of them are on your side. AOC is. Elizabeth Warren is. I suspect even Bernie Sanders still is. A few others. Not many at all.
    They are not on my side.  I think you might be picking what's important to you and would benefit you and applying it to others. If any of those people were elected president and went full on bat shit crazy like trump and just forced through their agenda without compromise, I'd most certainly be worse off in many respects.  I guess you could say that about just about any of the candidates in some ways.  But these people you mention are no different then others, they have picked their team and want to benefit them.  
    Agreed. 
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    mcgruff10mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 27,904
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, a few of them are on your side. AOC is. Elizabeth Warren is. I suspect even Bernie Sanders still is. A few others. Not many at all.
    They are not on my side.  I think you might be picking what's important to you and would benefit you and applying it to others. If any of those people were elected president and went full on bat shit crazy like trump and just forced through their agenda without compromise, I'd most certainly be worse off in many respects.  I guess you could say that about just about any of the candidates in some ways.  But these people you mention are no different then others, they have picked their team and want to benefit them.  
    Great points cincy. 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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    dignindignin Posts: 9,303
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, a few of them are on your side. AOC is. Elizabeth Warren is. I suspect even Bernie Sanders still is. A few others. Not many at all.
    I'd most certainly be worse off in many respects.   
    Oh yeah? How so?
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    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,665
    dignin said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, a few of them are on your side. AOC is. Elizabeth Warren is. I suspect even Bernie Sanders still is. A few others. Not many at all.
    I'd most certainly be worse off in many respects.   
    Oh yeah? How so?
    Waiving 1.6 trillion in student loans is a regressive tax that hurts everyone who doesn't have a loan. 
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    PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,580
    edited June 2019
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, a few of them are on your side. AOC is. Elizabeth Warren is. I suspect even Bernie Sanders still is. A few others. Not many at all.
    They are not on my side.  I think you might be picking what's important to you and would benefit you and applying it to others. If any of those people were elected president and went full on bat shit crazy like trump and just forced through their agenda without compromise, I'd most certainly be worse off in many respects.  I guess you could say that about just about any of the candidates in some ways.  But these people you mention are no different then others, they have picked their team and want to benefit them.  
    No, I didn't mean it like you took it. What their platforms may be isn't what I was talking about. What I meant is that their intentions and motivations are still righteous, i.e. what they do and want to do is, as far as they are concerned, meant to be in the best interests of the population - of the actual citizens. With the rest, that is not the case. With the rest, their interests lie with themselves, with their own power, and money money money. The rest are easily bribed, and easily corrupted. I am talking about where the hearts of the politicians are, not their policies. And yes, those people's hearts are on your side. You may think that their idea of what would be best for you isn't right, but that doesn't change the fact that they have the right intentions and are motivated by the things that politicians ought to be motivated by, in a perfect world.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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    dignindignin Posts: 9,303
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, a few of them are on your side. AOC is. Elizabeth Warren is. I suspect even Bernie Sanders still is. A few others. Not many at all.
    I'd most certainly be worse off in many respects.   
    Oh yeah? How so?
    Waiving 1.6 trillion in student loans is a regressive tax that hurts everyone who doesn't have a loan. 
    Regressive? That's very debatable. Even if so how does that hurt you personally?
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    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,665
    dignin said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, a few of them are on your side. AOC is. Elizabeth Warren is. I suspect even Bernie Sanders still is. A few others. Not many at all.
    I'd most certainly be worse off in many respects.   
    Oh yeah? How so?
    Waiving 1.6 trillion in student loans is a regressive tax that hurts everyone who doesn't have a loan. 
    Regressive? That's very debatable. Even if so how does that hurt you personally?
    It's absolutely regressive in nature.  It benefits those who are most likely to be high earners in the future.  And while the tax may only hit the higher incomes,  it will take away available resources for more needy. This could be SNAP, title III funding and plenty of others.  I don't consider college grads in an employment era of 97% to be needy. 

    Second,  you don't know how much I make,  how much I will make or how deep into the tax brackets this would cut. So it could affect many of us. 
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    cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,120
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, a few of them are on your side. AOC is. Elizabeth Warren is. I suspect even Bernie Sanders still is. A few others. Not many at all.
    They are not on my side.  I think you might be picking what's important to you and would benefit you and applying it to others. If any of those people were elected president and went full on bat shit crazy like trump and just forced through their agenda without compromise, I'd most certainly be worse off in many respects.  I guess you could say that about just about any of the candidates in some ways.  But these people you mention are no different then others, they have picked their team and want to benefit them.  
    No, I didn't mean it like you took it. What their platforms may be isn't what I was talking about. What I meant is that their intentions and motivations are still righteous, i.e. what they do and want to do is, as far as they are concerned, meant to be in the best interests of the population - of the actual citizens. With the rest, that is not the case. With the rest, their interests lie with themselves, with their own power, and money money money. The rest are easily bribed, and easily corrupted. I am talking about where the hearts of the politicians are, not their policies. And yes, those people's hearts are on your side. You may think that their idea of what would be best for you isn't right, but that doesn't change the fact that they have the right intentions and are motivated by the things that politicians ought to be motivated by, in a perfect world.
    Ah intentions.  I would agree that AOC and Warren seem to have the best intentions.  I'm uncertain about Bernie to be honest. I think he showed his true intentions when he allowed his populist movement followers to ditch voting for Hillary and help enable a trump presidency.  But then, that just my opinion.
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    njnancynjnancy Northern New Jersey Posts: 5,096
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, a few of them are on your side. AOC is. Elizabeth Warren is. I suspect even Bernie Sanders still is. A few others. Not many at all.
    They are not on my side.  I think you might be picking what's important to you and would benefit you and applying it to others. If any of those people were elected president and went full on bat shit crazy like trump and just forced through their agenda without compromise, I'd most certainly be worse off in many respects.  I guess you could say that about just about any of the candidates in some ways.  But these people you mention are no different then others, they have picked their team and want to benefit them.  
    No, I didn't mean it like you took it. What their platforms may be isn't what I was talking about. What I meant is that their intentions and motivations are still righteous, i.e. what they do and want to do is, as far as they are concerned, meant to be in the best interests of the population - of the actual citizens. With the rest, that is not the case. With the rest, their interests lie with themselves, with their own power, and money money money. The rest are easily bribed, and easily corrupted. I am talking about where the hearts of the politicians are, not their policies. And yes, those people's hearts are on your side. You may think that their idea of what would be best for you isn't right, but that doesn't change the fact that they have the right intentions and are motivated by the things that politicians ought to be motivated by, in a perfect world.
    Ah intentions.  I would agree that AOC and Warren seem to have the best intentions.  I'm uncertain about Bernie to be honest. I think he showed his true intentions when he allowed his populist movement followers to ditch voting for Hillary and help enable a trump presidency.  But then, that just my opinion.
    Completely agree about Bernie. 
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    brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,757
    The only ones on my side are on the far side.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
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