Yup. She's absolutely right. It's Pelosi's move first though. I'm not sure she can possibly resist any longer without risking her reputation.
My gut says Pelosi may have been waiting for the definitive “your move, Congress” for quite some time. Maybe I’m wrong though.
Maybe, but I hope you're right.... But it would beg the question: what if they do go ahead, and then it fails, which is very very likely, given where Congress stands right now? How will that play out politically? Pelosi is obviously wondering the same thing, and that is the whole reason she's hesitating.
I understand that Pelosi wanted to wait for political reasons. And those reasons made sense to me for a long time. Focus on 2020, etc... But at this point she needs to do her job. Her job isn't electioneering. It is leading the House. and the House has the responsibility of oversight. It is her Constitutional duty to hold Drumpf accountable for his actions. Just as I accuse Lindsey Graham Cracker and Cocaine Mitch of abdicating their responsibilities, I'm about ready to do the same with Pelosi. She needs to quit hiding from the reality of the current situation. Your move, Nancy.
I agree.
But that question still remains. What WILL happen when impeachment proceedings fail?? How will the voters react? How will it affect the election? Will it be a black mark against any Dem nominee? Will it basically guarantee another Trump win?
How many people were really banking their decision on if they will vote for Trump based on an impeachment hearing? Those people are a lost cause. If there aren't enough stable minded people who think his whole presidency is destroying this country, then we will get what is coming to us the hard way.
I think the concern is whether the Democrats will be seen as being petty and/or unfair to Trump. Trump's always tried to drum up sympathy for himself and it oftent works.
I know, but he is only going to appeal to those who already voted for him or were in his corner. Is there a belief that Trump could get more votes than last election if impeachment proceedings are brought forward? I can't fathom anyone all of a sudden voting for him because he keeps screaming "Presidential harassment!" People that buy in to that are morons and hypocrites. No one harasses people more than that asshole. Fuck him and anyone who continues to support him. It's beyond embarrassing.
Yup. She's absolutely right. It's Pelosi's move first though. I'm not sure she can possibly resist any longer without risking her reputation.
My gut says Pelosi may have been waiting for the definitive “your move, Congress” for quite some time. Maybe I’m wrong though.
Maybe, but I hope you're right.... But it would beg the question: what if they do go ahead, and then it fails, which is very very likely, given where Congress stands right now? How will that play out politically? Pelosi is obviously wondering the same thing, and that is the whole reason she's hesitating.
I understand that Pelosi wanted to wait for political reasons. And those reasons made sense to me for a long time. Focus on 2020, etc... But at this point she needs to do her job. Her job isn't electioneering. It is leading the House. and the House has the responsibility of oversight. It is her Constitutional duty to hold Drumpf accountable for his actions. Just as I accuse Lindsey Graham Cracker and Cocaine Mitch of abdicating their responsibilities, I'm about ready to do the same with Pelosi. She needs to quit hiding from the reality of the current situation. Your move, Nancy.
I agree.
But that question still remains. What WILL happen when impeachment proceedings fail?? How will the voters react? How will it affect the election? Will it be a black mark against any Dem nominee? Will it basically guarantee another Trump win?
How many people were really banking their decision on if they will vote for Trump based on an impeachment hearing? Those people are a lost cause. If there aren't enough stable minded people who think his whole presidency is destroying this country, then we will get what is coming to us the hard way.
Seriously? A LOT I think would do that, judging by how the American voters are now behaving. They are simply in the closet IMO.
But yeah, agreed. if Trump wins again, America is fucked.
Right, unless he is forcibly removed or voted out (which even then I am unsure of whether he will quietly step aside) some people will check the box for his dumb ass and the slimy Mitch and Lindsey show will continue to do his dirty work. Mitch has to be one of the worst ever politicians this country has ever seen. He is 10x worse than Trump.
Mitch is definitely a terrible politician The president, however, is not a politician. What he is is a..... Reality game show show host Con artist Flim flam man Snake oil salesman And a narcissist
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WASHINGTON—Revealing that bald-faced lies and shameless double standards
are the most reliable way to outmaneuver one’s opponents, a report
released Wednesday confirmed that massive hypocrisy just flat-out gets
the job done. “Changing your stance based on temporary expediency has
proven time and again to be a slam dunk in terms of advancing an
agenda,” read the report, which went on to state that there are no major
downsides to doing one thing one year and doing the exact opposite the
next because the majority of people do not remember anything that
happens in the world for more than a week or so. “Whether you are
engaged in a carefully calculated strategy of dishonesty or just
spouting the first lie that comes into your head, hypocrisy works
wonders. You will never be held accountable and will instead be admired
for your strength and pragmatism as a leader. Evidence also suggests the
only way to defeat a hypocrite in power is to become an even bigger
hypocrite yourself.” The report went on to conclude that not only is
brazen, amoral hypocrisy the best way to enact your personal vision,
it’s also fun.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I still don't get this DOJ policy of not indicting a sitting president. Such a policy even existing kinda suggests that many presidents might have been involved in criminal activity, but Trump's the worst of the bunch, and the dumbest, so he's the one in hot water. I guess the argument in favor of such a policy could be that if there was a partisan hack appointed as the special counsel, he'd be inclined to indict someone from the opposing party but might not indict someone from his own party? I guess? Otherwise, all this policy means it that the president is truly above the law.
Hypothetically, what if Mueller's investigation showed proof that Trump had a political opponent murdered? I guess he wouldn't indict him because of the almighty DOJ policy. So what would he do? Leave it up to congress to impeach and remove him from office? Oh that'll show him. You've had someone murdered. Your punishment? You MUST leave the White House immediately and retire to one of your golf courses.
I still don't get this DOJ policy of not indicting a sitting president. Such a policy even existing kinda suggests that many presidents might have been involved in criminal activity, but Trump's the worst of the bunch, and the dumbest, so he's the one in hot water. I guess the argument in favor of such a policy could be that if there was a partisan hack appointed as the special counsel, he'd be inclined to indict someone from the opposing party but might not indict someone from his own party? I guess? Otherwise, all this policy means it that the president is truly above the law.
Hypothetically, what if Mueller's investigation showed proof that Trump had a political opponent murdered? I guess he wouldn't indict him because of the almighty DOJ policy. So what would he do? Leave it up to congress to impeach and remove him from office? Oh that'll show him. You've had someone murdered. Your punishment? You MUST leave the White House immediately and retire to one of your golf courses.
at which point, in such a case, indictment could be brought.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I still don't get this DOJ policy of not indicting a sitting president. Such a policy even existing kinda suggests that many presidents might have been involved in criminal activity, but Trump's the worst of the bunch, and the dumbest, so he's the one in hot water. I guess the argument in favor of such a policy could be that if there was a partisan hack appointed as the special counsel, he'd be inclined to indict someone from the opposing party but might not indict someone from his own party? I guess? Otherwise, all this policy means it that the president is truly above the law.
Hypothetically, what if Mueller's investigation showed proof that Trump had a political opponent murdered? I guess he wouldn't indict him because of the almighty DOJ policy. So what would he do? Leave it up to congress to impeach and remove him from office? Oh that'll show him. You've had someone murdered. Your punishment? You MUST leave the White House immediately and retire to one of your golf courses.
at which point, in such a case, indictment could be brought.
Could Mueller also be subpoenaed to testify at that point?
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EV
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I still don't get this DOJ policy of not indicting a sitting president. Such a policy even existing kinda suggests that many presidents might have been involved in criminal activity, but Trump's the worst of the bunch, and the dumbest, so he's the one in hot water. I guess the argument in favor of such a policy could be that if there was a partisan hack appointed as the special counsel, he'd be inclined to indict someone from the opposing party but might not indict someone from his own party? I guess? Otherwise, all this policy means it that the president is truly above the law.
Hypothetically, what if Mueller's investigation showed proof that Trump had a political opponent murdered? I guess he wouldn't indict him because of the almighty DOJ policy. So what would he do? Leave it up to congress to impeach and remove him from office? Oh that'll show him. You've had someone murdered. Your punishment? You MUST leave the White House immediately and retire to one of your golf courses.
at which point, in such a case, indictment could be brought.
You're saying after he's out of office. And I don't think there are statue of limitations when it comes to murder charges, so for this hypothetical, he'd face the music. As for real life and this Mueller business, the house can impeach but the Senate won't convict. And if he's indicted on anything in the report following his presidency, it'd be too little, too late, for me anyway. I know many others would be on the edge of their seats for post-presidency charges against Trump.
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,676
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.
beginning?
Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !
jesus greets me looks just like me ....
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,676
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
OK so basically he read his report that everyone lied and no one really cooperated with the investigation and that Trump could not be completely exonerated.
Do I have this correct?
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,676
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
When Barr spun the report for his client I thought "what's the point? The whole thing's going to come out." Wow...it really worked. I guess I was naive to believe so many people would not take his summary at face value in the face of a report that contradicted it. Well-played; good reading of the gullibility of some and the willing cognitive dissonance of others.
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I’m surprised Mueller didn’t call quitsies/anti-quitsies before announcing he will never talk to another human being again and retreating to his bunker in parts unknown.
I’m still not sure if Mueller is actually a Trump plant. There is soooo much low handing fruit for the Democrats to go after into the next elections yet they want to keep watering the fruit tree that died months ago. Mueller basically refilled the watering can for the dead fruit tree. Pelosi knows this ...
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.
beginning?
Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !
No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.
beginning?
Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !
No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.
It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems.
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.
beginning?
Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !
No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.
It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems.
You can't pinpoint that beginning. These kinds of identifiers have to be momentous moments, not tiny little cultural shifts, like what people are consuming for entertainment in their homes. Besides, I REALLY REALLY don't think that reality TV or anything like that has anything to do with this - if it did, every developed nation in the world would be as fucked up as America is right now, which is not the case. Yes, social media will for sure be identified as a momentous thing in human history, but that isn't specific enough for historians to actually choose it as the "moment" America's decline began IMHO. Though the Russian interference and Trump's obstruction of justice certainly will be a part of it, and social media is entwined with that obviously. FWIW, I think the beginning of Trump was created by the beginning of Clinton hate among American voters, and that unbalanced loathing of Clinton was created by Trump as well as by the Russians via social media, and by Assange.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.
beginning?
Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !
No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.
It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems.
You can't pinpoint that beginning. These kinds of identifiers have to be momentous moments, not tiny little cultural shifts, like what people are consuming for entertainment in their homes. Besides, I REALLY REALLY don't think that reality TV or anything like that has anything to do with this - if it did, every developed nation in the world would be as fucked up as America is right now, which is not the case. Yes, social media will for sure be identifies as a momentous thing in human history, but that isn't specific enough for historians to actually choose it as the "moment" America's decline began IMHO. Though the Russian interference and Trump's obstruction of justice certainly will be a part of it, and social media is entwined with that obviously. FWIW, I think the beginning of Trump was created by the beginning of Clinton hate among American voters, and that unbalanced loathing of Clinton was created by Trump as well as by the Russians via social media, and by Assange.
I don't know if "Clinton hate" created Trump. She got the third most votes ever, so she couldn't have been that hated. Trump is a creation unto himself. He's basically been campaigning since the 1980's. Not that he was campaigning for anything in particular. Just trying to get himself "over" to use wrestling parlance (he is a WWE hall-of-famer after all). I mentioned reality TV because it's one of earliest forms of media (that I can think of) that has been portrayed as "real," but isn't real at all. That's fine as mindless entertainment (see: WWE), but something like the Apprentice did influence people to think Trump is a smart business man when he's nothing of the sort. Through things like reality TV and social media, people can totally portray themselves in a less-than-factual light and fool people into thinking they're something when they're not. Sometimes it's harmless, like Kanye West convincing some fools with a tweet that he's a genius, but sometimes it's harmful, like Donald Trump convincing some fools with a tweet that he's a genius.
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.
beginning?
Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !
No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.
It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems.
You can't pinpoint that beginning. These kinds of identifiers have to be momentous moments, not tiny little cultural shifts, like what people are consuming for entertainment in their homes. Besides, I REALLY REALLY don't think that reality TV or anything like that has anything to do with this - if it did, every developed nation in the world would be as fucked up as America is right now, which is not the case. Yes, social media will for sure be identifies as a momentous thing in human history, but that isn't specific enough for historians to actually choose it as the "moment" America's decline began IMHO. Though the Russian interference and Trump's obstruction of justice certainly will be a part of it, and social media is entwined with that obviously. FWIW, I think the beginning of Trump was created by the beginning of Clinton hate among American voters, and that unbalanced loathing of Clinton was created by Trump as well as by the Russians via social media, and by Assange.
I don't know if "Clinton hate" created Trump. She got the third most votes ever, so she couldn't have been that hated. Trump is a creation unto himself. He's basically been campaigning since the 1980's. Not that he was campaigning for anything in particular. Just trying to get himself "over" to use wrestling parlance (he is a WWE hall-of-famer after all). I mentioned reality TV because it's one of earliest forms of media (that I can think of) that has been portrayed as "real," but isn't real at all. That's fine as mindless entertainment (see: WWE), but something like the Apprentice did influence people to think Trump is a smart business man when he's nothing of the sort. Through things like reality TV and social media, people can totally portray themselves in a less-than-factual light and fool people into thinking they're something when they're not. Sometimes it's harmless, like Kanye West convincing some fools with a tweet that he's a genius, but sometimes it's harmful, like Donald Trump convincing some fools with a tweet that he's a genius.
There was a ridiculous, distorted level of hate towards Hillary, and so many left leaning people bought into it and voted 3rd party - and some even for Trump - because of it. If it weren't for that, Trump never would have won. That is a fact.
People, including the likes of Oprah, were talking about Trump running for president years and years before reality TV came along, so I don't think reality TV really had much to do with it TBH. I think it's entirely likely that if Trump had run without having ever created the Apprentice, he still would have won, if all other things remained the same.
But anyway, back to the original point: the identifiable moment of the start of America's decline will indeed be when Trump took power. Of course all of human history leading up to that moment created those circumstances - that's a given.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.
beginning?
Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !
No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.
It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems.
You can't pinpoint that beginning. These kinds of identifiers have to be momentous moments, not tiny little cultural shifts, like what people are consuming for entertainment in their homes. Besides, I REALLY REALLY don't think that reality TV or anything like that has anything to do with this - if it did, every developed nation in the world would be as fucked up as America is right now, which is not the case. Yes, social media will for sure be identified as a momentous thing in human history, but that isn't specific enough for historians to actually choose it as the "moment" America's decline began IMHO. Though the Russian interference and Trump's obstruction of justice certainly will be a part of it, and social media is entwined with that obviously. FWIW, I think the beginning of Trump was created by the beginning of Clinton hate among American voters, and that unbalanced loathing of Clinton was created by Trump as well as by the Russians via social media, and by Assange.
This is all way too unprovable. Too many variables, no uniform definition of ‘decline’, no way of measuring decline except for economic factors (which really don’t indicate the whole story or anything close to it), a mass media that loves to state definitively why something is happening with no justification for why the throngs of other variables ought to be discounted. I don’t understand what it is that compels us to focus on “why”, an unanswerable question in a modern and entangled world. “What should we do from here” seems more relevant and maybe, hopefully, even answerable.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
There was a ridiculous, distorted level of hate towards Hillary, and so many left leaning people bought into it and voted 3rd party - and some even for Trump - because of it. If it weren't for that, Trump never would have won. That is a fact.
Maybe they just didn't like her because they didn't like her. It doesn't have to be a matter of people buying into any distorted level of hate. That sounds like another excuse for her. But whatever. She's irrelevant now anyway. Now it's about one of these new democratic candidates being able to do what she failed to do.
let's face it. The United States is a facade. We have bullied our way into world dominance. At the same time, the education of our population has not kept up with other world powers. Trump is merely a symptom of this illness. We are approaching the stage where left untreated, this disease will kill us.
I tend to agree. I think we're looking at the beginning of America's long decline.
beginning?
Half way through? If he gets away with everything it will be the final nail specially with him winning a 2nd term Democracy will be dead !
No, the very beginning. America rose up until now. And the decline will probably take a couple centuries (but nobody can predict that - war or global economic collapse or natural calamity or god knows what can change everything obviously). I'm talking along the lines of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire here, not just people not feeling good about how things are going, or even the current degradation of its so-called democracy, although that of course is why this time will be defined as the beginning of the decline. I believe that this time under Trump will be identified as the beginning of America's literal collapse as a nation... a long time from now.
It might very well be, but I think that'd be wrong because everything that led up to us even being a society where Donald Trump can be the president needs to be taken into account. Not sure where to pin-point the beginning though. The beginning of reality television? The rise of the internet? Social media? It's hard to tell. Maybe all the way back to the 1980's when celebrity worship (though tabloids and stuff like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) began. Again, it's hard to pinpoint. But it's definitely not a case of Donald Trump appeared out of nowhere, became president, and ruined America. He's a symptom of much larger problems.
You can't pinpoint that beginning. These kinds of identifiers have to be momentous moments, not tiny little cultural shifts, like what people are consuming for entertainment in their homes. Besides, I REALLY REALLY don't think that reality TV or anything like that has anything to do with this - if it did, every developed nation in the world would be as fucked up as America is right now, which is not the case. Yes, social media will for sure be identified as a momentous thing in human history, but that isn't specific enough for historians to actually choose it as the "moment" America's decline began IMHO. Though the Russian interference and Trump's obstruction of justice certainly will be a part of it, and social media is entwined with that obviously. FWIW, I think the beginning of Trump was created by the beginning of Clinton hate among American voters, and that unbalanced loathing of Clinton was created by Trump as well as by the Russians via social media, and by Assange.
This is all way too unprovable. Too many variables, no uniform definition of ‘decline’, no way of measuring decline except for economic factors (which really don’t indicate the whole story or anything close to it), a mass media that loves to state definitively why something is happening with no justification for why the throngs of other variables ought to be discounted. I don’t understand what it is that compels us to focus on “why”, an unanswerable question in a modern and entangled world. “What should we do from here” seems more relevant and maybe, hopefully, even answerable.
Well obviously it's just my opinion, but I am specifically talking about how this will go down in literal history. Hundreds of years from now this will be recorded in the same manner the decline and fall of all other past civilizations are: academically. We can sit here in the present and say oh, there are so many variables. But that isn't how it pans out in history books. Moments and causes are pretty well defined in that context, including the socio-political and cultural influences that lead to the defining moments. Doing that is far from impossible among historians. There aren't too many questions that end up being unanswerable in that context. Not in the long run.
Of course the most important and relevant issue to us right now is what should be done from here. I just happen to be talking about how this will all go down in history though. Not about the here and now. This whole thread is about the here and now, so I think it's okay to stray from that for a bit and think about how it will look to future generations!
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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The president, however, is not a politician. What he is is a.....
Reality game show show host
Con artist
Flim flam man
Snake oil salesman
And a narcissist
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Report: Massive Hypocrisy Just Flat-Out Gets The Job Done
Hypothetically, what if Mueller's investigation showed proof that Trump had a political opponent murdered? I guess he wouldn't indict him because of the almighty DOJ policy. So what would he do? Leave it up to congress to impeach and remove him from office? Oh that'll show him. You've had someone murdered. Your punishment? You MUST leave the White House immediately and retire to one of your golf courses.
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Do I have this correct?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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I’m still not sure if Mueller is actually a Trump plant. There is soooo much low handing fruit for the Democrats to go after into the next elections yet they want to keep watering the fruit tree that died months ago. Mueller basically refilled the watering can for the dead fruit tree. Pelosi knows this ...
Fuck franken
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com