Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez

PJ_Soul

benjs said:

PJ_Soul said:

I understand what you both are saying... but I can't say I am in the business of closing that divide. I see the parallels clearly and am saying so. And there is another side that I am more interested in: if people ignore such parallels because they feel objectionable, the very real actions/tactics I am talking about will just continue and slowly escalate and slowly sink into the social fabric more and more, and go pretty much unchecked... just like they did in Germany. I think that is what's happening right now. I am of the mind that these radical and dangerous fascist tactics must be acknowledged and confronted head on, rather than trying to minimize them for the sake of making people feel better about what I view as a very dangerous slide towards some form of fascism.

And all I'm saying is I fear a head-on tactic, when it comes from a D mindset to an R or vice-versa, will be ignored. I think your approach neglects the level of division and attachment to our established viewpoints we've reached. Of course, it's your right to continue to discuss and act on this problem the way you see fit. For what it's worth, I really respect where you're coming from on this, I just don't think it's going to be productive. I hope I'm proven wrong

I respect your perspective too.

I do fully acknowledge the division, and it's horrifying. Perhaps the difference here is that I actually don't think this division can be bridged at all. Not in the immediate sense. And I think waiting for that impossible bridge to be built will actually end up allowing that slide I mentioned. I think the time had come for radical opposition to what is going on with the US government and Trump's fascist tactics. Because, distressingly, his tactics are working. I am calling a spade a spade. The line is that we need to look to the history of the rise of the Nazis as a learning tool. To never commit the same mistakes again. I feel that those mistakes are starting to be committed again, and people seem unwilling to acknowledge it. For me, that means it's time to stop mincing around the details I've mentioned and call them what they are: political tactics historically and consistently used by rising fascist governments. 

.... I could switch out the rise of the Nazis for Orwell's 1984. Would that make people feel better? It wouldn't make me feel better.

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

And correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been repeatedly asked by the mods to discuss the topic at hand and not the posters?

You asked me to explain my comment of why it’s not worth it. I did. Now you are complaining about me answering your question...in fact the same way you already answered the question yourself? Seriously? 

I was talking to my2hands.

I apologize then. Sorry I thought you meant me.

That's okay - I think your post got between his and mine.

And I was in the middle of watching an important college b-ball game! 

oftenreading

PJ_Soul said:

benjs said:

PJ_Soul said:

I understand what you both are saying... but I can't say I am in the business of closing that divide. I see the parallels clearly and am saying so. And there is another side that I am more interested in: if people ignore such parallels because they feel objectionable, the very real actions/tactics I am talking about will just continue and slowly escalate and slowly sink into the social fabric more and more, and go pretty much unchecked... just like they did in Germany. I think that is what's happening right now. I am of the mind that these radical and dangerous fascist tactics must be acknowledged and confronted head on, rather than trying to minimize them for the sake of making people feel better about what I view as a very dangerous slide towards some form of fascism.

And all I'm saying is I fear a head-on tactic, when it comes from a D mindset to an R or vice-versa, will be ignored. I think your approach neglects the level of division and attachment to our established viewpoints we've reached. Of course, it's your right to continue to discuss and act on this problem the way you see fit. For what it's worth, I really respect where you're coming from on this, I just don't think it's going to be productive. I hope I'm proven wrong

I respect your perspective too.

I do fully acknowledge the division, and it's horrifying. Perhaps the difference here is that I actually don't think this division can be bridged at all. Not in the immediate sense. And I think waiting for that impossible bridge to be built will actually end up allowing that slide I mentioned. I think the time had come for radical opposition to what is going on with the US government and Trump's fascist tactics. Because, distressingly, his tactics are working. I am calling a spade a spade. The line is that we need to look to the history of the rise of the Nazis as a learning tool. To never commit the same mistakes again. I feel that those mistakes are starting to be committed again, and people seem unwilling to acknowledge it. For me, that means it's time to stop mincing around the details I've mentioned and call them what they are: political tactics historically and consistently used by rising fascist governments. 

.... I could switch out the rise of the Nazis for Orwell's 1984. Would that make people feel better? It wouldn't make me feel better.

Regarding “division”, I was listening to CBC today (kind of like NPR) and one guest being interviewed said something to the effect that political opinions in the US are “polarized to an extent that hasn’t been seen since the civil war”. I don’t know if others agree with that assessment, but it was striking to me. 

Meltdown99

^^^For sure.  Just look at the Cohen Hearing vs. Wilson Raybould in Ottawa.  I only watched a bit of the Cohen testimony, but some of those US politicians looked like they were going to have strokes, and in Canada pretty much everyone treated Raybould with tremendous respect and really wanted to hear what she had to say, ever her own party.  In the US, any Republicans in the room did not want to hear what he had to say...just garbage US politics are...and both parties are guilty of it, the Republicans are worse, though.

PJ_Soul

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

benjs said:

PJ_Soul said:

I understand what you both are saying... but I can't say I am in the business of closing that divide. I see the parallels clearly and am saying so. And there is another side that I am more interested in: if people ignore such parallels because they feel objectionable, the very real actions/tactics I am talking about will just continue and slowly escalate and slowly sink into the social fabric more and more, and go pretty much unchecked... just like they did in Germany. I think that is what's happening right now. I am of the mind that these radical and dangerous fascist tactics must be acknowledged and confronted head on, rather than trying to minimize them for the sake of making people feel better about what I view as a very dangerous slide towards some form of fascism.

And all I'm saying is I fear a head-on tactic, when it comes from a D mindset to an R or vice-versa, will be ignored. I think your approach neglects the level of division and attachment to our established viewpoints we've reached. Of course, it's your right to continue to discuss and act on this problem the way you see fit. For what it's worth, I really respect where you're coming from on this, I just don't think it's going to be productive. I hope I'm proven wrong

I respect your perspective too.

I do fully acknowledge the division, and it's horrifying. Perhaps the difference here is that I actually don't think this division can be bridged at all. Not in the immediate sense. And I think waiting for that impossible bridge to be built will actually end up allowing that slide I mentioned. I think the time had come for radical opposition to what is going on with the US government and Trump's fascist tactics. Because, distressingly, his tactics are working. I am calling a spade a spade. The line is that we need to look to the history of the rise of the Nazis as a learning tool. To never commit the same mistakes again. I feel that those mistakes are starting to be committed again, and people seem unwilling to acknowledge it. For me, that means it's time to stop mincing around the details I've mentioned and call them what they are: political tactics historically and consistently used by rising fascist governments. 

.... I could switch out the rise of the Nazis for Orwell's 1984. Would that make people feel better? It wouldn't make me feel better.

Regarding “division”, I was listening to CBC today (kind of like NPR) and one guest being interviewed said something to the effect that political opinions in the US are “polarized to an extent that hasn’t been seen since the civil war”. I don’t know if others agree with that assessment, but it was striking to me. 

I definitely agree with that, and it scares me.

my2hands

PJ_Soul said:

my2hands said:

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/ss

Not. Even. Remotely. Close.

Your opinion is wrong. It is ok to be wrong. I am wrong all of the time. It's fun, you shoukd try it.

And I believe you are wrong. Fucking drop it. I have no problem being wrong when I think I'm wrong. I do not believe I am wrong in this case and have provided plenty of content to explain why I feel the way I do. You don't have to agree with me, but enough with this ridiculous "it's okay to be wrong" shit.

Can't disagree without getting angry and cursing at me?

I'm not going to drop it... you're comparing an American law enforcement agency with a Nazi death squad that had a radically different history and agenda and helped systematically murder millions of people... frankly you're completely disrespecting the millions of victims of the Nazi's and the SS by trying to equate the two... it's naive, disrespectful, and flat out incorrect

Did you read that brief history of the SS? How in anyway does that sound similar to ICE?

I'm sorry but your "parallels" are bogus and not even close

The creation, the history, the purpose, the methods and tactics used, the leadership, the countries and their situations.... are not even close... and to dig in and lash out to defend that position?

You're entitled to you're own opinion, but not your own facts

benjs

PJ_Soul said:

benjs said:

PJ_Soul said:

I understand what you both are saying... but I can't say I am in the business of closing that divide. I see the parallels clearly and am saying so. And there is another side that I am more interested in: if people ignore such parallels because they feel objectionable, the very real actions/tactics I am talking about will just continue and slowly escalate and slowly sink into the social fabric more and more, and go pretty much unchecked... just like they did in Germany. I think that is what's happening right now. I am of the mind that these radical and dangerous fascist tactics must be acknowledged and confronted head on, rather than trying to minimize them for the sake of making people feel better about what I view as a very dangerous slide towards some form of fascism.

And all I'm saying is I fear a head-on tactic, when it comes from a D mindset to an R or vice-versa, will be ignored. I think your approach neglects the level of division and attachment to our established viewpoints we've reached. Of course, it's your right to continue to discuss and act on this problem the way you see fit. For what it's worth, I really respect where you're coming from on this, I just don't think it's going to be productive. I hope I'm proven wrong

I respect your perspective too.

I do fully acknowledge the division, and it's horrifying. Perhaps the difference here is that I actually don't think this division can be bridged at all. Not in the immediate sense. And I think waiting for that impossible bridge to be built will actually end up allowing that slide I mentioned. I think the time had come for radical opposition to what is going on with the US government and Trump's fascist tactics. Because, distressingly, his tactics are working. I am calling a spade a spade. The line is that we need to look to the history of the rise of the Nazis as a learning tool. To never commit the same mistakes again. I feel that those mistakes are starting to be committed again, and people seem unwilling to acknowledge it. For me, that means it's time to stop mincing around the details I've mentioned and call them what they are: political tactics historically and consistently used by rising fascist governments. 

.... I could switch out the rise of the Nazis for Orwell's 1984. Would that make people feel better? It wouldn't make me feel better.

I just don't see the gap as long-term tenable, and if I thought the divide couldn't be bridged, I'd honestly just stop trying (on any political reform). Now, to be fair, I'm very close to giving up on that notion being realistic, I just still don't see a way forward without removing this critical barrier to progress.

tempo_n_groove

In case you missed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWx0ESjxO54

She asked good questions.

rustneversleeps

I'M RIGHT!

dankind

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

benjs said:

PJ_Soul said:

I understand what you both are saying... but I can't say I am in the business of closing that divide. I see the parallels clearly and am saying so. And there is another side that I am more interested in: if people ignore such parallels because they feel objectionable, the very real actions/tactics I am talking about will just continue and slowly escalate and slowly sink into the social fabric more and more, and go pretty much unchecked... just like they did in Germany. I think that is what's happening right now. I am of the mind that these radical and dangerous fascist tactics must be acknowledged and confronted head on, rather than trying to minimize them for the sake of making people feel better about what I view as a very dangerous slide towards some form of fascism.

And all I'm saying is I fear a head-on tactic, when it comes from a D mindset to an R or vice-versa, will be ignored. I think your approach neglects the level of division and attachment to our established viewpoints we've reached. Of course, it's your right to continue to discuss and act on this problem the way you see fit. For what it's worth, I really respect where you're coming from on this, I just don't think it's going to be productive. I hope I'm proven wrong

I respect your perspective too.

I do fully acknowledge the division, and it's horrifying. Perhaps the difference here is that I actually don't think this division can be bridged at all. Not in the immediate sense. And I think waiting for that impossible bridge to be built will actually end up allowing that slide I mentioned. I think the time had come for radical opposition to what is going on with the US government and Trump's fascist tactics. Because, distressingly, his tactics are working. I am calling a spade a spade. The line is that we need to look to the history of the rise of the Nazis as a learning tool. To never commit the same mistakes again. I feel that those mistakes are starting to be committed again, and people seem unwilling to acknowledge it. For me, that means it's time to stop mincing around the details I've mentioned and call them what they are: political tactics historically and consistently used by rising fascist governments. 

.... I could switch out the rise of the Nazis for Orwell's 1984. Would that make people feel better? It wouldn't make me feel better.

Regarding “division”, I was listening to CBC today (kind of like NPR) and one guest being interviewed said something to the effect that political opinions in the US are “polarized to an extent that hasn’t been seen since the civil war”. I don’t know if others agree with that assessment, but it was striking to me. 

I definitely agree with that, and it scares me.

I wasn't alive during the civil war. 

PJPOWER

rustneversleeps said:

I'M RIGHT!

No I’m right and if you disagree, you are in denial!

PJPOWER

tempo_n_groove said:

In case you missed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWx0ESjxO54

She asked good questions.

She did, surprisingly enough

mrussel1

PJPOWER said:

tempo_n_groove said:

In case you missed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWx0ESjxO54

She asked good questions.

She did, surprisingly enough

Cult of personality.  Don't we expect that?

oftenreading

dankind said:

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

benjs said:

PJ_Soul said:

I understand what you both are saying... but I can't say I am in the business of closing that divide. I see the parallels clearly and am saying so. And there is another side that I am more interested in: if people ignore such parallels because they feel objectionable, the very real actions/tactics I am talking about will just continue and slowly escalate and slowly sink into the social fabric more and more, and go pretty much unchecked... just like they did in Germany. I think that is what's happening right now. I am of the mind that these radical and dangerous fascist tactics must be acknowledged and confronted head on, rather than trying to minimize them for the sake of making people feel better about what I view as a very dangerous slide towards some form of fascism.

And all I'm saying is I fear a head-on tactic, when it comes from a D mindset to an R or vice-versa, will be ignored. I think your approach neglects the level of division and attachment to our established viewpoints we've reached. Of course, it's your right to continue to discuss and act on this problem the way you see fit. For what it's worth, I really respect where you're coming from on this, I just don't think it's going to be productive. I hope I'm proven wrong

I respect your perspective too.

I do fully acknowledge the division, and it's horrifying. Perhaps the difference here is that I actually don't think this division can be bridged at all. Not in the immediate sense. And I think waiting for that impossible bridge to be built will actually end up allowing that slide I mentioned. I think the time had come for radical opposition to what is going on with the US government and Trump's fascist tactics. Because, distressingly, his tactics are working. I am calling a spade a spade. The line is that we need to look to the history of the rise of the Nazis as a learning tool. To never commit the same mistakes again. I feel that those mistakes are starting to be committed again, and people seem unwilling to acknowledge it. For me, that means it's time to stop mincing around the details I've mentioned and call them what they are: political tactics historically and consistently used by rising fascist governments. 

.... I could switch out the rise of the Nazis for Orwell's 1984. Would that make people feel better? It wouldn't make me feel better.

Regarding “division”, I was listening to CBC today (kind of like NPR) and one guest being interviewed said something to the effect that political opinions in the US are “polarized to an extent that hasn’t been seen since the civil war”. I don’t know if others agree with that assessment, but it was striking to me. 

I definitely agree with that, and it scares me.

I wasn't alive during the civil war. 

Right. I guess we should ask Wobbie, then. 

PJPOWER

mrussel1 said:

PJPOWER said:

tempo_n_groove said:

In case you missed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWx0ESjxO54

She asked good questions.

She did, surprisingly enough

Cult of personality.  Don't we expect that?

I expected grandstanding, +1 in my book for Cortez for not, though.  I still think she has a LOT to learn and is pretty naive and impulsive in areas such as economics and long term strategic planning, but her heart is in the right place.  She wants to better the country, just has no clue how to.

mace1229

I realize I'm jumping into this late, but I agree that the comparison between ICE and SS is ridiculous. I have to roll my eyes every time someone brings it up.
I won't disagree that there are parallels, but you can find parallels with anything. You can find parallels with the Nazi party and the left (or the right), but it doesn't make it a good comparison. 
You have to ignore that the SS and the Nazi party was one of the worst, most hateful and destructive organizations in the history of the planet, or pretend that ICE murders by the millions, in order to make a fair comparison. It is like comparing a Taco Bell to the World Trade Towers, and saying they have things in common, like walls, ceilings, and a floor. People go there (or did) to work and eat. SO can't you see all the parallels between this Taco Bell and the WTT? You have to ignore the core of each building to accept that they are anything alike. 
Yes, ICE rounds people up but that is a negligible fraction by comparison and for legal reasons, not racial. A few have died in their custody (not murdered, at best died from lack of medical attention). But that is in no way any comparison to SS. And yes, I did read the articles posted.

dignin

mace1229 said:

I realize I'm jumping into this late, but I agree that the comparison between ICE and SS is ridiculous. I have to roll my eyes every time someone brings it up.
I won't disagree that there are parallels, but you can find parallels with anything. You can find parallels with the Nazi party and the left (or the right), but it doesn't make it a good comparison. 
You have to ignore that the SS and the Nazi party was one of the worst, most hateful and destructive organizations in the history of the planet, or pretend that ICE murders by the millions, in order to make a fair comparison. It is like comparing a Taco Bell to the World Trade Towers, and saying they have things in common, like walls, ceilings, and a floor. People go there (or did) to work and eat. SO can't you see all the parallels between this Taco Bell and the WTT? You have to ignore the core of each building to accept that they are anything alike. 
Yes, ICE rounds people up but that is a negligible fraction by comparison and for legal reasons, not racial. A few have died in their custody (not murdered, at best died from lack of medical attention). But that is in no way any comparison to SS. And yes, I did read the articles posted.

How many times does she have to say she doesn't think they are the same before some of you guys get it?

mrussel1

I don't blame Mace for putting in his/her 2 cents.  But I do agree it's time to let this one go.  

dignin

mrussel1 said:

I don't blame Mace for putting in his/her 2 cents.  But I do agree it's time to let this one go.  

I agree. Everyone is just talking past each other at this point.

mace1229

Sorry, I was about 2 pages behind on this thread and just responded to where I was before realizing we all moved on.
I also didn't claim she said they were the same. I get that she didn't.