Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez

PJ_Soul

And correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been repeatedly asked by the mods to discuss the topic at hand and not the posters?

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

my2hands said:

Lots of counterpoints were offered to show why comparing ICE to the SS are not only inaccurate, but frankly ridiculous 

This is totally not worth it, i dont think I've honestly ever seen you concede a point or even suggest you could be wrong

I guess you missed it then.

I responded to those counterpoints and even posted several articles showing why I disagreed, and as you can see, nobody responded to the points I am referring to now.

But I don't see why you care either way. Leave me be. I have a right to stand by my opinions and have no idea why you seem to think I am obligated to concede in this case.

Leave me be? Wth does that mean?

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

my2hands said:

Many counterpoints were presented, actually...

Literally none were, in response to my list of why I think there are parallels.

Never are....

Pardon? That's not true. Stick to the conversation at hand.

You literally said so yourself.

... then I actually don't understand what you are trying to say here.

mcgruff10

What “terror inducing” tactics does ice use that parallel to the ss?
and yes kids were taken from their parents but were eventually given back and not shot on the spot, worked to death or put in gas chambers.  

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

my2hands said:

Many counterpoints were presented, actually...

Literally none were, in response to my list of why I think there are parallels.

Never are....

Pardon? That's not true. Stick to the conversation at hand.

You literally said so yourself.

... then I actually don't understand what you are trying to say here.

You said you don’t come here to learn and potentially change your position on anything. I said it’s not worth it and you claimed I was bullying. Wtf. You never think anyone’s counterpoints are on par with you. So why don’t we leave it at what I originally said, cause it applies to every conversation I’ve ever seen you have. It’s not worth it to have a discussion. Cause you aren’t going to ever listen to learn. You have a position and aren’t changing. That’s just the facts. You say so yourself.

cincybearcat

You are wrong but will never admit it. Ever. On anything.

PJ_Soul

mcgruff10 said:

What “terror inducing” tactics does ice use that parallel to the ss?
and yes kids were taken from their parents but were eventually given back and not shot on the spot, worked to death or put in gas chambers.  

Many, many children have not been given back - they don't even know where they are. And now it's discovered that 1000s more children were forcibly taken than was reported.

Now please go back and read those articles I posted about the ICE raids. I posted them to show you how they have induced terror.

And I have said more than once I am not saying they are exactly the same. You'll recall this started when I said I think the current ICE is more comparable to the SS than to the KKK, as Harris suggested. Not that ICE and the SS are the same in all ways.

mrussel1

This has gotten ridiculous lately.  We've ceased to discuss the merits of any topic on every thread now.

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

And correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been repeatedly asked by the mods to discuss the topic at hand and not the posters?

You asked me to explain my comment of why it’s not worth it. I did. Now you are complaining about me answering your question...in fact the same way you already answered the question yourself? Seriously? 

PJ_Soul

mrussel1 said:

This has gotten ridiculous lately.  We've ceased to discuss the merits of any topic on every thread now.

I agree. It keeps devolving into a conversation about how certain people don't like how other certain people state their opinions. It's really lame.

Wobbie

mcgruff10 said:

What “terror inducing” tactics does ice use that parallel to the ss?
and yes kids were taken from their parents but were eventually given back and not shot on the spot, worked to death or put in gas chambers.  

c’mom, mcgruff. maybe not SS but not “american” in any way.

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

And correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been repeatedly asked by the mods to discuss the topic at hand and not the posters?

You asked me to explain my comment of why it’s not worth it. I did. Now you are complaining about me answering your question...in fact the same way you already answered the question yourself? Seriously? 

I was talking to my2hands.

cincybearcat

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

And correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been repeatedly asked by the mods to discuss the topic at hand and not the posters?

You asked me to explain my comment of why it’s not worth it. I did. Now you are complaining about me answering your question...in fact the same way you already answered the question yourself? Seriously? 

I was talking to my2hands.

I apologize then. Sorry I thought you meant me.

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

And correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been repeatedly asked by the mods to discuss the topic at hand and not the posters?

You asked me to explain my comment of why it’s not worth it. I did. Now you are complaining about me answering your question...in fact the same way you already answered the question yourself? Seriously? 

I was talking to my2hands.

I apologize then. Sorry I thought you meant me.

That's okay - I think your post got between his and mine.

Halifax2TheMax

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

And correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been repeatedly asked by the mods to discuss the topic at hand and not the posters?

You asked me to explain my comment of why it’s not worth it. I did. Now you are complaining about me answering your question...in fact the same way you already answered the question yourself? Seriously? 

I was talking to my2hands.

I apologize then. Sorry I thought you meant me.

That's okay - I think your post got between his and mine.

Kinky.

benjs

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mrussel1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Kamala Harris is pleasant to listen to. So is Elizabeth Warren. No barking at all from those two. Why is everyone paying so much attention to Bernie when these two women are so much more appealing?

Harris pissed me off a bit when she was questioning the ICE nominee guy and asked him if he was aware of the "perception" that there are similarities between ICE and the KKK. What a fucking cop-out. Sounds like SHE thinks that there are similarities between ICE and the KKK, and so she should say that. Don't hide behind "people are saying." That's right out Trump's playbook. 

Warren's alright I guess. As for Harris, other than this ICE thing, her Jussie Smollet "lynching" quote, and her claim to have been listening to Tupac and Snoop in college, despite their debut albums coming out after she graduated, she's not bad. Hey, she's for legalizing weed. That carries weight with me. But I don't think either will win the nomination.

Yeah, I actually see far more similarities between ICE and the SS myself. But I have no problems with how she phrased that question.

Warren is a really inspiring speaker, and truly enthusiastic. I think if she got a real shot (i.e. Bernie-like attention) she could actually manage to really energize people.

Frankly, I feel like Americans just don't feel confident enough that a woman can win this one, in the sense that they don't want to take the chance of a female nominee, given the stakes.

Hey if you think American law-enforcement officers are tantamount to being Nazis, I guess Harris is your candidate. I personally don't mind the comparison (though I don't agree), I just think she should have owned it and not hid behind the "there's a perception" crap. Again, that's just like Trump saying "Lots of people are saying......."

And I think you're right that people aren't feeling confident in a woman right now. Hillary had a lot of baggage, but also a lot of resources. If she couldn't win, Harris, Warren, or Gillilbrand would have lot of trouble. 

Well nobody is my candidate (and please don't twist my words that way. Thank you). I can't vote for any of them. But that is a real perception held by many. She wasn't lying. Her saying that doesn't exclude her from thinking that at all. I really think you're making a mountain out of mole hill on that one.

Yes, you sure did summarize the rampant sexism being exposed by this campaign run-up well. Those who deny that is a major factor (among others) are lying to themselves.

Seriously? This is your response? You're not going to address your ridiculous comparison of ICE to the SS? I'm sure you saw the responses to it on the previous page of this thread. Oh well. I guess I'd distance myself from a statement like that too. 

You didn't ask me to address my comment about the similarities between ICE and the SS (and no, I didn't see any responses to it on the previous page). I have absolutely no need to distance myself from that comment. I point out such similarities without shame, and with confidence. ICE has been raiding minority communities and terrorizing people in their homes and rounding them up. Anyone who doesn't see similarities between that and how the SS used to round up Jews and take them from their homes is in denial.

But those Jewish, Slavs, and Roma were systemically eliminated.  And the Nazis did it to German citizens and the citizens of the countries where they invaded, not illegal immigrants.  There is an enormous chasm between the two.  

I didn't suggest that ICE then murdered them all. Again, I don't want to have to spell out the nuances of parallels, and how they are different from saying two things are exactly the same. I know for a fact you are easily smart enough to understand that. But FWIW, ICE has indiscriminately busted into homes where no illegal immigrants live in their community raids, and terrorized legal immigrants as well.

But even the parallels aren't as strong as say Trump and Hitler. Nobody that makes that comparison thinks Trump wants a mass genocide. They think he's a demagogue that's is stroking the flames of racism. But I think there aren't enough parallels to compare ICE to the SS. 

Do you have any links to articles about ICE terrorizing legal immigrants? Not that I believe you, but I'd be interested to read them. 

Here are some articles that might make the parallel I draw more clear to you:

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/06/immigration-customs-enforcement-ice-raids-community-impact/563039/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/06/20/ice-arrests-nearly-150-meat-plant-workers-in-latest-immigration-raid-in-ohio/?utm_term=.12056e893e4f

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/scramble-help-families-left-behind-fallout-trump-administration-s-immigration-n907946

https://thehill.com/latino/385261-ice-wrongly-arrested-over-1000-us-citizens-in-recent-years-report

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/ice-lied-to-get-inside-immigrants-homes-during-raids-lawyers-say_us_56942592e4b086bc1cd4e03f

https://www.ajc.com/news/national-govt--politics/georgian-arrested-immigration-raid-says-she-citizen/nKgMWkmAPCrLbSObOBTrpM/

Definitely some interesting stuff. Certainly 1,000 incorrect arrests over the past few years is alarming. You can say they're incompetent for that. Lying to get into houses without search-warrants? Pretty unlawful. But it's still quite a leap to draw parallels to the SS. Despite it's shortcomings, ICE was created with the intent of homeland security and to bring illegals to justice. The SS...well we know what that was created for.

Look I get what you're trying to say and I do understand the difference between drawing parallels and suggesting two things are the same. But I think this sort of hyperbole and rhetoric just goes too far. Not "too far" as in I'm offended by it. I could care less. But I think voters are turned off by that sort of left-wing hysteric talk: ICE are like Nazis, the police are racist against blacks, white men are evil, etc. 

Agreed. I feel the statement is inevitably bound to be perceived as incorrect, extreme, politically charged and divisive rhetoric. Like you, I don't care from a 'too far' perspective, I just care because we don't need to widen the chasm between political sides any more, and I wonder how much more the social fabric of the country can take before the fired up extremes have at it.

PJ_Soul

I understand what you both are saying... but I can't say I am in the business of closing that divide. I see the parallels clearly and am saying so. And there is another side that I am more interested in: if people ignore such parallels because they feel objectionable, the very real actions/tactics I am talking about will just continue and slowly escalate and slowly sink into the social fabric more and more, and go pretty much unchecked... just like they did in Germany. I think that is what's happening right now. I am of the mind that these radical and dangerous fascist tactics must be acknowledged and confronted head on, rather than trying to minimize them for the sake of making people feel better about what I view as a very dangerous slide towards some form of fascism.

my2hands

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/ss

Not. Even. Remotely. Close.

Your opinion is wrong. It is ok to be wrong. I am wrong all of the time. It's fun, you shoukd try it.

benjs

PJ_Soul said:

I understand what you both are saying... but I can't say I am in the business of closing that divide. I see the parallels clearly and am saying so. And there is another side that I am more interested in: if people ignore such parallels because they feel objectionable, the very real actions/tactics I am talking about will just continue and slowly escalate and slowly sink into the social fabric more and more, and go pretty much unchecked... just like they did in Germany. I think that is what's happening right now. I am of the mind that these radical and dangerous fascist tactics must be acknowledged and confronted head on, rather than trying to minimize them for the sake of making people feel better about what I view as a very dangerous slide towards some form of fascism.

And all I'm saying is I fear a head-on tactic, when it comes from a D mindset to an R or vice-versa, will be ignored. I think your approach neglects the level of division and attachment to our established viewpoints we've reached. Of course, it's your right to continue to discuss and act on this problem the way you see fit. For what it's worth, I really respect where you're coming from on this, I just don't think it's going to be productive. I hope I'm proven wrong

PJ_Soul

my2hands said:

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/ss

Not. Even. Remotely. Close.

Your opinion is wrong. It is ok to be wrong. I am wrong all of the time. It's fun, you shoukd try it.

And I believe you are wrong. Fucking drop it. I have no problem being wrong when I think I'm wrong. I do not believe I am wrong in this case and have provided plenty of content to explain why I feel the way I do. You don't have to agree with me, but enough with this ridiculous "it's okay to be wrong" shit.