Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez

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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,893
    edited November 2018
    You point has NOT been proven at all, for the reasons I already offered. Access to care is not limited in any of those countries, and the ONLY reason it says that about Canada and not the other is, shock, because Canada is the only one that shares a border with the USA, lol. About 80 people per 20,000 ever cross the border for any healthcare, and far less than that do it out of necessity. That proves nothing except for what I already explained re specialists/population pool/specialist poaching. You are SNOWED man. I also notice that you haven't mentioned a word about what the US healthcare system does NOT do for Americans. How it hurts them in ways none of those other countries do because they find it appalling. Do you care? I have to assume you don't.

    Again, I'm in no pissing contest here (I think you are?). I just want to always stand up for Americans' rights when it comes to their healthcare, and that they don't get now. It's horrible, and Americans should be fighting for those rights... meanwhile, folks like you are defending this horrible, inhumane system. It's sick.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

    I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 
    Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.
    Ha, ha, ha. I knew it was dangerous ground to go to b/c immediately I'm racist.   Are you trying to compare to US Obesity rates vs. anywhere in the world? We are the fattest.  But, that's not necessarily tied to a particular group, so could happen for any reason anywhere. 
    The fact is you are picking Social related issues that is actually more racist than me picking a very clear race-disease correlation that's based on fact, and as I said just one example, that I felt was easy for everyone to understand..  

    But, don't worry. Most Liberals are racist. They just think they hide it by trying to point it out when it doesn't exist in others.
    So the effects of health on the health care system should only be determined by luck of the draw, or should I say, gene? And you didn’t answer the question despite claiming you could have picked any number of other diseases prevelant in other races. Obesity rates in US to Canada. Or US compared to any of the top16 as our Swedish friend posted. Are we comparing US health care to Afghanistan now? Bait and switch and I await your response.

    You must have a guilty conscience as you called yourself racist, I didn’t. I asked a question.
     
    Well, I think I answered your question in my response, but I'll try to say it again - I was pointing out that country diversity which is a strength of the US results in a much more diverse disease prevalence. I did not choose gun shots b/c that's not necessarily driven by that diversity (i.e. it could prove to be more heavily focused on one thing or another, but ultimately, that's a social issue that creates healthcare cost). Likewise Obesity (and btw, I did mention that when talking about education as the necessary precursor to successful healthcare).  Americans are extremely overweight and that does put an extra burden on the healthcare system.  

    But, what I was trying to point out is that there are disease drivers that are gene based that the US presents more of than, in this case, Canada (in fairness, i should have quoted an early statement I made to make that connection clearer).  I also felt like the Sickle Cell trait was a pretty well known one that would be offensive to nobody, as it's a pretty clear cut connection unfortunately. But, I should remember i am in the land of I'm offended.  So, again - easy for Sweden to present good statistics, but let's throw some diversity in there and see what happens.  Not blaming anyone. Not calling anyone out.    Without properly adjusting for all the inherent variables, you have a faulty study.

    But, I will be more than happy to get my care in the US system over Canada. And ultimately, that's the truest measure of a healthcare system. When you are in desperate need of care, where do you go? Canadians go to the US for quality.  US folks go to Canada for price (drugs) reason.  I'll take quality when it comes to my health, thank you very much.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

    I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 
    Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.
    You really don't have to ask, do you?
    Are you working on your 5th grade research project I asked you about?
    Lol, no, because you are now just sounding delusional, so I'm not about to bother. I'm serious. I'm not just saying that because I don't feel like it or don't think I can. You've crossed the line from rational discussion into some crazy zone that I'm not willing to engage in. I don't know who pulled the wool over your eyes man, but they did a REALLY good job.
    Cool. Glad I gave you cover to remain under educated.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,893
    edited November 2018
    No, Canadians do not go to the US for quality - that is not what's happening. You obviously don't believe me, but that's just you being willfully ignorant and admittedly making up your own facts out of uninformed assumptions.
    Again, you clearly couldn't care less about the people in your own country, unless they impact you directly... I have to assume you haven't yet had a loved go bankrupt because they got cancer, or lose their rental because their rent had to go to an unexpected medical expense, or die because they couldn't afford treatment for something their insurer refused to cover.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,689
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    It's starting to bug me t


    Everybody in the world besides some Americans know that the US healthcare system is terrible and one big human right violation. I don't even know wtf to make of those who do think it's better than Canada's, unless they're rich enough to not care. And that they don't understand how they've been brainwashed I guess? It sure isn't true that Canadians go to America for surgeries because Canada's system is inferior, but I know some people actually buy that crap.
    Why do they then?
    Hardly any do, but when they do, it's because America has 325 million people in it, and Canada only has 37 million people in it (different sized pool of doctors), plus America's twisted for profit system poaches doctors from elsewhere by paying them tons of money. So of course certain rare specialists can only be found in America sometimes, so they have to go there (if they can afford it - most can't). Also, Canada's system does sometimes create waiting lists for NON-urgent surgeries, say for a hip replacement or something, so RICH Canadians sometimes choose to either go to a private clinic here (Yes, Canada does have for profit medical care options too FYI, for the rich. Most Americans aren't even aware of that), or they skip down to the states and do it, depending on what they're looking for and I gather after comparison shopping or whatever, and they happen to find something that suits what they're looking for better across the border.

    Just to put it in perspective, here is a nice pie chart for you. I suggest that you stop getting your information from Ted Cruz, lol.


    (source: incidental economist)
    Does the incidental economist (what a funny title) have a pie chart for neurosurgery or cardiac valve replacement only and not of the entire system? I'd hope primary care could be taken care of locally. But, what about focusing on the complicated super specialties like these and others that are the true indication of the value of the healthcare system.

    I'll be honest. I can be asking a question that's counter to my argument.  I don't know for sure what my question will produce (though I have my suspicions).  But, if I'm to be proven wrong, i want it to be via a proper analysis and not some stupid 2nd grad pie chart that an imbecile could (and probably did) put together. 

    Again, go deep.  You're embarrassing yourself with these esoteric, surface type "proofs."
    I certainly haven't done my doctoral dissertation in the last 5 minutes, so I'll have to rely a bit more on surface analysis of the data. You touted neurosurgery and cardiac valve replacement as super specialties, but based on that narrow view, you've excluded what healthcare means for most people. When looking at mortality rates, we're most concerned with most people. But it is interesting to break it down into specialties and see what things look like. Here's an interesting collection of charts about comparable mortality rates for various causes of mortality, so it digs a little deeper that just the top numbers, and breaks it down by circulatory, respiratory, cancer, external causes, mental health/behavioral, neurosystem and Endocrine/Nutritional/Metabolic. Guess what? Other than cancers, where we're slightly ahead, we lag. We lag in circulatory (your focus specifically on cardiac valve replacement notwithstanding), we lag in repiratory, we lag in mental health, we lag in neurosystem (your focus specifically on neurosurgery nothwithstanding), and of course in external causes. 

    How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries?

    So yay for us for having a handle on cancer. And I guess yay for us for having super-specialists that treat a very narrow sector of the population of healthcare consumers. But for all of the money we spend, it sure sucks getting participation trophies in those other areas. If money was the answer and all the best doctors are in the US, then explain how this is efficient or effective? 

    Here's an interesting dashboard if you want to venture outside the mortality measures into other measures like physicians per capita (we are below average), healthcare spending (we are above average), wait times (careful, we are only better than Canada here, but lag behind everyone else):

    Health System Dashboard

    Overall, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that what we have in the US is a)better (outcomes, mortality); b)cost effective; c)efficient; or d)accessible. We can do better. 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 16,636
    edited November 2018
    Anyone who thinks Government can run anything better than a competitive free market is not being honest about the government around them.
    https://nordic.businessinsider.com/the-16-countries-with-the-worlds-best-healthcare-systems-2017-1/


    Ha, ha. Is it risk adjusted?  Does it adjust for demographics? 

    Nordic. Too funny.

    16. Canada — Canada's 1984 Health Act entrenches in law the country's system of free at the point of access healthcare, known as Medicare. Canada's system is not perfect however, and in recent years the number of Canadians going south for private care in the USA has grown.

    Thank you for proving my point.  Access to care limited.  I stopped reading there.  Without that as a criteria, you're embarrassing yourselves.   I think it's funny when Canadians criticize the US.   Those guys are great.  They're like that little kid down the block that you let play 2nd, special deep center fielder and he thinks he's in the game. 

    Here's what's funny about all the included pictures. None of them include any diversity. It appears New Zealand comes the closest.
    Why do americans always pull out the "b-b-b-b-but we're diverse!" card. Whatever the subject, when pushed to the wall. That or "b-b-b-but we're so many peopleeeee.... we have to have predatory capitalism roam free because of us being so many people and so diverse"

    What is too funny about "Nordic"?

    In what way is "access to care limited" in a context where you go bankrupt in the US for a heartattack? And how much do you pay for medicine?  
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • EdsonNascimentoEdsonNascimento Posts: 5,196
    edited November 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    No, Canadians do not go to the US for quality - that is not what's happening. You obviously don't believe me, but that's just you being willfully ignorant and admittedly making up your own facts out of uninformed assumptions.
    Again, you clearly couldn't care less about the people in your own country, unless they impact you directly... I have to assume you haven't yet had a loved go bankrupt because they got cancer, or lose their rental because their rent had to go to an unexpected medical expense, or die because they couldn't afford treatment for something their insurer refused to cover.
    Again, so why are they going?  And I saw above not out of need.    Who determines need?  Is it your insurance companies?  And why are they going? Because they want to pay for more expensive, less effective care?

    To your latter point - the US system could definitely use fixing by bending the cost curve through coordinated care.  However, what Obama did set that back 10 years.  you can't just hand out money and make it better.    That only served to make it more expensive (As most liberal policies do - if you put more money into the system without properly aligning incentives across all participants in the system, the price meets the demand).

    And, yeah, but i also haven't had relatives go bankrupt AND cross the border because my government told them brain surgery wasn't necessary.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/desperate-canadian-heads-to-us-for-pineal-cyst-surgery-1.3306722

    We can all play the horror story in the news game. I don't think this is common (even though the article tries to make it sound as such).  Yet, your sound bites are the same.  Yes, these horrendous things happen. We need to fix that. 
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • dignindignin Posts: 7,575
    edited November 2018
    jeffbr said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    It's starting to bug me t


    Everybody in the world besides some Americans know that the US healthcare system is terrible and one big human right violation. I don't even know wtf to make of those who do think it's better than Canada's, unless they're rich enough to not care. And that they don't understand how they've been brainwashed I guess? It sure isn't true that Canadians go to America for surgeries because Canada's system is inferior, but I know some people actually buy that crap.
    Why do they then?
    Hardly any do, but when they do, it's because America has 325 million people in it, and Canada only has 37 million people in it (different sized pool of doctors), plus America's twisted for profit system poaches doctors from elsewhere by paying them tons of money. So of course certain rare specialists can only be found in America sometimes, so they have to go there (if they can afford it - most can't). Also, Canada's system does sometimes create waiting lists for NON-urgent surgeries, say for a hip replacement or something, so RICH Canadians sometimes choose to either go to a private clinic here (Yes, Canada does have for profit medical care options too FYI, for the rich. Most Americans aren't even aware of that), or they skip down to the states and do it, depending on what they're looking for and I gather after comparison shopping or whatever, and they happen to find something that suits what they're looking for better across the border.

    Just to put it in perspective, here is a nice pie chart for you. I suggest that you stop getting your information from Ted Cruz, lol.


    (source: incidental economist)
    Does the incidental economist (what a funny title) have a pie chart for neurosurgery or cardiac valve replacement only and not of the entire system? I'd hope primary care could be taken care of locally. But, what about focusing on the complicated super specialties like these and others that are the true indication of the value of the healthcare system.

    I'll be honest. I can be asking a question that's counter to my argument.  I don't know for sure what my question will produce (though I have my suspicions).  But, if I'm to be proven wrong, i want it to be via a proper analysis and not some stupid 2nd grad pie chart that an imbecile could (and probably did) put together. 

    Again, go deep.  You're embarrassing yourself with these esoteric, surface type "proofs."
    I certainly haven't done my doctoral dissertation in the last 5 minutes, so I'll have to rely a bit more on surface analysis of the data. You touted neurosurgery and cardiac valve replacement as super specialties, but based on that narrow view, you've excluded what healthcare means for most people. When looking at mortality rates, we're most concerned with most people. But it is interesting to break it down into specialties and see what things look like. Here's an interesting collection of charts about comparable mortality rates for various causes of mortality, so it digs a little deeper that just the top numbers, and breaks it down by circulatory, respiratory, cancer, external causes, mental health/behavioral, neurosystem and Endocrine/Nutritional/Metabolic. Guess what? Other than cancers, where we're slightly ahead, we lag. We lag in circulatory (your focus specifically on cardiac valve replacement notwithstanding), we lag in repiratory, we lag in mental health, we lag in neurosystem (your focus specifically on neurosurgery nothwithstanding), and of course in external causes. 

    How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries?

    So yay for us for having a handle on cancer. And I guess yay for us for having super-specialists that treat a very narrow sector of the population of healthcare consumers. But for all of the money we spend, it sure sucks getting participation trophies in those other areas. If money was the answer and all the best doctors are in the US, then explain how this is efficient or effective? 

    Here's an interesting dashboard if you want to venture outside the mortality measures into other measures like physicians per capita (we are below average), healthcare spending (we are above average), wait times (careful, we are only better than Canada here, but lag behind everyone else):

    Health System Dashboard

    Overall, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that what we have in the US is a)better (outcomes, mortality); b)cost effective; c)efficient; or d)accessible. We can do better. 
    I wonder if they consider wait times for Americans who don't have access to health care or only wait times for Americans with health care? I would suspect wait times are shorter in America because there are less people in line (per capita). Everyone is in line in Canada.


    Post edited by dignin on
  • PJ_Soul said:
    No, Canadians do not go to the US for quality - that is not what's happening. You obviously don't believe me, but that's just you being willfully ignorant and admittedly making up your own facts out of uninformed assumptions.
    Again, you clearly couldn't care less about the people in your own country, unless they impact you directly... I have to assume you haven't yet had a loved go bankrupt because they got cancer, or lose their rental because their rent had to go to an unexpected medical expense, or die because they couldn't afford treatment for something their insurer refused to cover.
    Or had to drink water in Flint. Or live next to a superfund site. And to not consider “social” policies as a means of placing less burden on an overburdened health care system is ignorant. And wouldn’t Sweden then have a prevalence of cystic fibrosis burdening their health care system, being as homogeneous as you claim @[email protected]?
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,893
    edited November 2018
    BTW, my rich sister goes to the US for healthcare sometimes. Know why? Because she a complete hypochondriac. She goes there when the doctors at the exclusive private clinics here (where they are closely regulated) won't humour her disorder anymore. She never has trouble finding some quack in the USA who charges thousands and thousands of dollars to perform quack procedures that make no fucking sense - she'd get as much benefit out of going to one of those people obsessed with the power of crystals. But because of the strength of lack of regulation in the for-profit healthcare industry in the US, people like my hypochondriac sister go down, have a spa day, and let some asshole doctor who puts money before morals tell them what they want to hear. That is the kind of crap that a for-profit healthcare industry creates (not that I don't know that there are many amazing, caring doctors down there too btw. Of course there are. Again, I say this with a desire for the American healthcare system to be great, not to just hate on it. But with fools pretending a broken system is a great system, that will never happen).
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 6,708
    Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...


  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,793
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Piss away.

    Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

    i never said the system was better. 
    You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.
    I’m assuming that the best doctors are human beings. 

    Tell me - do you like to make a good salary?
    Many great doctors are completely repulsed by the American system and wouldn't work there for any amount of money. I think you forgot for a second that money isn't everything for all people.
    I personally make a much lower salary than I could because I've chosen the public sector. I left the corporate sector and better pay because I felt rather disgusted by how everyone was motivated by the bottom line alone, and by the greed and competitiveness. Sorry, but your belief that everyone thinks money is the most important thing is completely false. That's sad you think that.
    It’s a motivating factor for sure,  not the only one. It’s sad what a condescending person you have become.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,893
    edited November 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Piss away.

    Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

    i never said the system was better. 
    You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.
    I’m assuming that the best doctors are human beings. 

    Tell me - do you like to make a good salary?
    Many great doctors are completely repulsed by the American system and wouldn't work there for any amount of money. I think you forgot for a second that money isn't everything for all people.
    I personally make a much lower salary than I could because I've chosen the public sector. I left the corporate sector and better pay because I felt rather disgusted by how everyone was motivated by the bottom line alone, and by the greed and competitiveness. Sorry, but your belief that everyone thinks money is the most important thing is completely false. That's sad you think that.
    It’s a motivating factor for sure,  not the only one. It’s sad what a condescending person you have become.
    Lol, oh please.
    Obviously everyone on the face of the planet knows that money is a motivating factor. You drew a conclusion beyond that IMO. You assumed all the best doctors will be where they get paid the most. That is not true.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:
    No, Canadians do not go to the US for quality - that is not what's happening. You obviously don't believe me, but that's just you being willfully ignorant and admittedly making up your own facts out of uninformed assumptions.
    Again, you clearly couldn't care less about the people in your own country, unless they impact you directly... I have to assume you haven't yet had a loved go bankrupt because they got cancer, or lose their rental because their rent had to go to an unexpected medical expense, or die because they couldn't afford treatment for something their insurer refused to cover.
    Or had to drink water in Flint. Or live next to a superfund site. And to not consider “social” policies as a means of placing less burden on an overburdened health care system is ignorant. And wouldn’t Sweden then have a prevalence of cystic fibrosis burdening their health care system, being as homogeneous as you claim @[email protected]?

    According to the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation Patient Registry, in the United States:

    • More than 30,000 people are living with cystic fibrosis (more than 70,000 worldwide).
    • Approximately 1,000 new cases of CF are diagnosed each year.
    • More than 75 percent of people with CF are diagnosed by age 2.
    • More than half of the CF population is age 18 or older. 

    Are the other 40,000 all in Sweden?

    And, yes - Flint and the like need to be fixed.   Of course, social policy needs to be addressed.  That was my earlier point about education, etc. We need to stop looking at solving the healthcare system by throwing money DIRECTLY at it.  We need to fix the underlying causes. Some, like you mention can and should be addressed. 
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,689
    dignin said:
    jeffbr said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    It's starting to bug me t


    Everybody in the world besides some Americans know that the US healthcare system is terrible and one big human right violation. I don't even know wtf to make of those who do think it's better than Canada's, unless they're rich enough to not care. And that they don't understand how they've been brainwashed I guess? It sure isn't true that Canadians go to America for surgeries because Canada's system is inferior, but I know some people actually buy that crap.
    Why do they then?
    Hardly any do, but when they do, it's because America has 325 million people in it, and Canada only has 37 million people in it (different sized pool of doctors), plus America's twisted for profit system poaches doctors from elsewhere by paying them tons of money. So of course certain rare specialists can only be found in America sometimes, so they have to go there (if they can afford it - most can't). Also, Canada's system does sometimes create waiting lists for NON-urgent surgeries, say for a hip replacement or something, so RICH Canadians sometimes choose to either go to a private clinic here (Yes, Canada does have for profit medical care options too FYI, for the rich. Most Americans aren't even aware of that), or they skip down to the states and do it, depending on what they're looking for and I gather after comparison shopping or whatever, and they happen to find something that suits what they're looking for better across the border.

    Just to put it in perspective, here is a nice pie chart for you. I suggest that you stop getting your information from Ted Cruz, lol.


    (source: incidental economist)
    Does the incidental economist (what a funny title) have a pie chart for neurosurgery or cardiac valve replacement only and not of the entire system? I'd hope primary care could be taken care of locally. But, what about focusing on the complicated super specialties like these and others that are the true indication of the value of the healthcare system.

    I'll be honest. I can be asking a question that's counter to my argument.  I don't know for sure what my question will produce (though I have my suspicions).  But, if I'm to be proven wrong, i want it to be via a proper analysis and not some stupid 2nd grad pie chart that an imbecile could (and probably did) put together. 

    Again, go deep.  You're embarrassing yourself with these esoteric, surface type "proofs."
    I certainly haven't done my doctoral dissertation in the last 5 minutes, so I'll have to rely a bit more on surface analysis of the data. You touted neurosurgery and cardiac valve replacement as super specialties, but based on that narrow view, you've excluded what healthcare means for most people. When looking at mortality rates, we're most concerned with most people. But it is interesting to break it down into specialties and see what things look like. Here's an interesting collection of charts about comparable mortality rates for various causes of mortality, so it digs a little deeper that just the top numbers, and breaks it down by circulatory, respiratory, cancer, external causes, mental health/behavioral, neurosystem and Endocrine/Nutritional/Metabolic. Guess what? Other than cancers, where we're slightly ahead, we lag. We lag in circulatory (your focus specifically on cardiac valve replacement notwithstanding), we lag in repiratory, we lag in mental health, we lag in neurosystem (your focus specifically on neurosurgery nothwithstanding), and of course in external causes. 

    How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries?

    So yay for us for having a handle on cancer. And I guess yay for us for having super-specialists that treat a very narrow sector of the population of healthcare consumers. But for all of the money we spend, it sure sucks getting participation trophies in those other areas. If money was the answer and all the best doctors are in the US, then explain how this is efficient or effective? 

    Here's an interesting dashboard if you want to venture outside the mortality measures into other measures like physicians per capita (we are below average), healthcare spending (we are above average), wait times (careful, we are only better than Canada here, but lag behind everyone else):

    Health System Dashboard

    Overall, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that what we have in the US is a)better (outcomes, mortality); b)cost effective; c)efficient; or d)accessible. We can do better. 
    I wonder if they consider wait times for Americans who don't have access to health care or only wait times for Americans with health care? I would suspect wait times are shorter in America because there are less people in line (per capita). Everyone is in line in Canada.


    That's a great question and makes sense to ask. I didn't find the answer either on the chart below or on the Commonwealth fund's site where this data originated.

    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • PJ_Soul said:
    BTW, my rich sister goes to the US for healthcare sometimes. Know why? Because she a complete hypochondriac. She goes there when the doctors at the exclusive private clinics here (where they are closely regulated) won't humour her disorder anymore. She never has trouble finding some quack in the USA who charges thousands and thousands of dollars to perform quack procedures that make no fucking sense - she'd get as much benefit out of going to one of those people obsessed with the power of crystals. But because of the strength of lack of regulation in the for-profit healthcare industry in the US, people like my hypochondriac sister go down, have a spa day, and let some asshole doctor who puts money before morals tell them what they want to hear. That is the kind of crap that a for-profit healthcare industry creates (not that I don't know that there are many amazing, caring doctors down there too btw. Of course there are. Again, I say this with a desire for the American healthcare system to be great, not to just hate on it. But with fools pretending a broken system is a great system, that will never happen).
    Fair enough.  But, if she's paying out of pocket, how is that the insurance industry's fault?  

    And there's a lack of regulation on the healthcare industry?  Lol.  Wow.  We have whole departments in the Government that all they do is regulate and dictate (which adds cost to the system).  Too funny.  The Managed Care companies are the ones monitoring quality of doctors because that's how they make money.  They get rid of doctors that have poor outcomes because you know what? An improperly treated diabetic costs a hell of a lot more than a properly treated one.  Profit is a good motivation.  Your understanding of US healthcare companies is so whacked that it's funny. 

    So, if a company denies an A1C blood test for a diabetic patient (or a visit where one would be done) the cost to the healthcare system is potentially crazy (and obviously the cost to the patient is their health) with very little cost advantage by avoiding the visit or the test (relatively speaking). Do you know who does a better job of ensuring that diabetic patients get these tests timely? Managed care companies!!! Why? Because losses (to put it in those terms since those are the ones you understand) are exorbitant for an amputation. What does the Canadian gov't do to ensure they get there? do they proactively provide transportation to the Endocrinologist? The US and State Governments don't where they are the direct payers.  Managed Care companies do.  So, even if you think these companies are evil profit takers - they are providing the better care  - why does it matter for what reason? Why is reaping the reward (while lowering overall cost to the system) a bad thing?

    Nobody said the US system is perfect.  Not sure where you got that from. All I'm saying is government run is not the solution. 
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • EdsonNascimentoEdsonNascimento Posts: 5,196
    edited November 2018
    Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...


    What's the OMB score for all this?  Does she know what the OMB is?
    Post edited by EdsonNascimento on
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,793
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Piss away.

    Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

    i never said the system was better. 
    You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.
    I’m assuming that the best doctors are human beings. 

    Tell me - do you like to make a good salary?
    Many great doctors are completely repulsed by the American system and wouldn't work there for any amount of money. I think you forgot for a second that money isn't everything for all people.
    I personally make a much lower salary than I could because I've chosen the public sector. I left the corporate sector and better pay because I felt rather disgusted by how everyone was motivated by the bottom line alone, and by the greed and competitiveness. Sorry, but your belief that everyone thinks money is the most important thing is completely false. That's sad you think that.
    It’s a motivating factor for sure,  not the only one. It’s sad what a condescending person you have become.
    Lol, oh please.
    Obviously everyone on the face of the planet knows that money is a motivating factor. You drew a conclusion beyond that IMO. You assumed all the best doctors will be where they get paid the most. That is not true.
    You literally have no sense of humor unless it’s spelled out for you. 


    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,893
    edited November 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    BTW, my rich sister goes to the US for healthcare sometimes. Know why? Because she a complete hypochondriac. She goes there when the doctors at the exclusive private clinics here (where they are closely regulated) won't humour her disorder anymore. She never has trouble finding some quack in the USA who charges thousands and thousands of dollars to perform quack procedures that make no fucking sense - she'd get as much benefit out of going to one of those people obsessed with the power of crystals. But because of the strength of lack of regulation in the for-profit healthcare industry in the US, people like my hypochondriac sister go down, have a spa day, and let some asshole doctor who puts money before morals tell them what they want to hear. That is the kind of crap that a for-profit healthcare industry creates (not that I don't know that there are many amazing, caring doctors down there too btw. Of course there are. Again, I say this with a desire for the American healthcare system to be great, not to just hate on it. But with fools pretending a broken system is a great system, that will never happen).
    Fair enough.  But, if she's paying out of pocket, how is that the insurance industry's fault?  

    And there's a lack of regulation on the healthcare industry?  Lol.  Wow.  We have whole departments in the Government that all they do is regulate and dictate (which adds cost to the system).  Too funny.  The Managed Care companies are the ones monitoring quality of doctors because that's how they make money.  They get rid of doctors that have poor outcomes because you know what? An improperly treated diabetic costs a hell of a lot more than a properly treated one.  Profit is a good motivation.  Your understanding of US healthcare companies is so whacked that it's funny. 

    So, if a company denies an A1C blood test for a diabetic patient (or a visit where one would be done) the cost to the healthcare system is potentially crazy (and obviously the cost to the patient is their health) with very little cost advantage by avoiding the visit or the test (relatively speaking). Do you know who does a better job of ensuring that diabetic patients get these tests timely? Managed care companies!!! Why? Because losses (to put it in those terms since those are the ones you understand) are exorbitant for an amputation. What does the Canadian gov't do to ensure they get there? do they proactively provide transportation to the Endocrinologist? The US and State Governments don't where they are the direct payers.  Managed Care companies do.  So, even if you think these companies are evil profit takers - they are providing the better care  - why does it matter for what reason? Why is reaping the reward (while lowering overall cost to the system) a bad thing?

    Nobody said the US system is perfect.  Not sure where you got that from. All I'm saying is government run is not the solution. 
    It's the entire system's fault, which the insurance companies are a part of.

    I meant a lack comparative lack of regulation. I wasn't suggesting it's a regulatory free for all. But of course the doctors that attract patients like my sister, and, say, all those plastic surgeon hacks who will do literally anything for a patient if they ask for it, even if it's not safe or if the patient seems mentally unwell. These kinds of doctors really don't exist elsewhere, because the healthcare system doesn't exist in such a monetized industry like that, plus the strictly regulated public systems have regulations that wouldn't make it possible anyhow. In other words, when the system isn't for-profit across the board like that, swindlers and money whores have no place to go. So they all go to America where it's basically a free for all for those types of greedy-ass doctors who are fine with taking advantage of vulnerable patients with money. They feel better when they get in their $300K car and drive home to their mansions.

    Anyway, the bottom line is that any healthcare system that is for-profit, where insurance companies have the goal of keeping costs to a minimum, is simply fucking dangerous as fuck, and guarantees that everyone but the rich will ultimately get the short end of the stick. At best.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Hi!Hi! Posts: 1,612
    edited November 2018
    Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...



    Lol, I love her.
    Just curious if she is actively trying to keep Amazon out of New York, which I dont think she is, or just voicing concerns of her constituents? Did she say she didnt want them in NY? Nothing ive seen says she has.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,893
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Piss away.

    Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

    i never said the system was better. 
    You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.
    I’m assuming that the best doctors are human beings. 

    Tell me - do you like to make a good salary?
    Many great doctors are completely repulsed by the American system and wouldn't work there for any amount of money. I think you forgot for a second that money isn't everything for all people.
    I personally make a much lower salary than I could because I've chosen the public sector. I left the corporate sector and better pay because I felt rather disgusted by how everyone was motivated by the bottom line alone, and by the greed and competitiveness. Sorry, but your belief that everyone thinks money is the most important thing is completely false. That's sad you think that.
    It’s a motivating factor for sure,  not the only one. It’s sad what a condescending person you have become.
    Lol, oh please.
    Obviously everyone on the face of the planet knows that money is a motivating factor. You drew a conclusion beyond that IMO. You assumed all the best doctors will be where they get paid the most. That is not true.
    You literally have no sense of humor unless it’s spelled out for you. 


    Well everyone who knows me knows that's not true, so maybe it's your sense of humour that's the problem? Or at least how you type it out? Because if you think there was supposed to be a joke in there somewhere, then you're doing something wrong, lol.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,793
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Piss away.

    Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

    i never said the system was better. 
    You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.
    I’m assuming that the best doctors are human beings. 

    Tell me - do you like to make a good salary?
    Many great doctors are completely repulsed by the American system and wouldn't work there for any amount of money. I think you forgot for a second that money isn't everything for all people.
    I personally make a much lower salary than I could because I've chosen the public sector. I left the corporate sector and better pay because I felt rather disgusted by how everyone was motivated by the bottom line alone, and by the greed and competitiveness. Sorry, but your belief that everyone thinks money is the most important thing is completely false. That's sad you think that.
    It’s a motivating factor for sure,  not the only one. It’s sad what a condescending person you have become.
    Lol, oh please.
    Obviously everyone on the face of the planet knows that money is a motivating factor. You drew a conclusion beyond that IMO. You assumed all the best doctors will be where they get paid the most. That is not true.
    You literally have no sense of humor unless it’s spelled out for you. 


    Well everyone who knows me knows that's not true, so maybe it's your sense of humour that's the problem? Or at least how you type it out? Because if you think there was supposed to be a joke in there somewhere, then you're doing something wrong, lol.
    My joke was the origjnal comment about you agreeing US has the best doctors. ;)

    of of course I know you don’t agree with that 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • EdsonNascimentoEdsonNascimento Posts: 5,196
    edited November 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    BTW, my rich sister goes to the US for healthcare sometimes. Know why? Because she a complete hypochondriac. She goes there when the doctors at the exclusive private clinics here (where they are closely regulated) won't humour her disorder anymore. She never has trouble finding some quack in the USA who charges thousands and thousands of dollars to perform quack procedures that make no fucking sense - she'd get as much benefit out of going to one of those people obsessed with the power of crystals. But because of the strength of lack of regulation in the for-profit healthcare industry in the US, people like my hypochondriac sister go down, have a spa day, and let some asshole doctor who puts money before morals tell them what they want to hear. That is the kind of crap that a for-profit healthcare industry creates (not that I don't know that there are many amazing, caring doctors down there too btw. Of course there are. Again, I say this with a desire for the American healthcare system to be great, not to just hate on it. But with fools pretending a broken system is a great system, that will never happen).
    Fair enough.  But, if she's paying out of pocket, how is that the insurance industry's fault?  

    And there's a lack of regulation on the healthcare industry?  Lol.  Wow.  We have whole departments in the Government that all they do is regulate and dictate (which adds cost to the system).  Too funny.  The Managed Care companies are the ones monitoring quality of doctors because that's how they make money.  They get rid of doctors that have poor outcomes because you know what? An improperly treated diabetic costs a hell of a lot more than a properly treated one.  Profit is a good motivation.  Your understanding of US healthcare companies is so whacked that it's funny. 

    So, if a company denies an A1C blood test for a diabetic patient (or a visit where one would be done) the cost to the healthcare system is potentially crazy (and obviously the cost to the patient is their health) with very little cost advantage by avoiding the visit or the test (relatively speaking). Do you know who does a better job of ensuring that diabetic patients get these tests timely? Managed care companies!!! Why? Because losses (to put it in those terms since those are the ones you understand) are exorbitant for an amputation. What does the Canadian gov't do to ensure they get there? do they proactively provide transportation to the Endocrinologist? The US and State Governments don't where they are the direct payers.  Managed Care companies do.  So, even if you think these companies are evil profit takers - they are providing the better care  - why does it matter for what reason? Why is reaping the reward (while lowering overall cost to the system) a bad thing?

    Nobody said the US system is perfect.  Not sure where you got that from. All I'm saying is government run is not the solution. 
    It's the entire system's fault, which the insurance companies are a part of.

    I meant a lack comparative lack of regulation. I wasn't suggesting it's a regulatory free for all. But of course the doctors that attract patients like my sister, and, say, all those plastic surgeon hacks who will do literally anything for a patient if they ask for it, even if it's not safe or if the patient seems mentally unwell. These kinds of doctors really don't exist elsewhere, because the healthcare system doesn't exist in such a monetized industry like that, plus the strictly regulated public systems have regulations that wouldn't make it possible anyhow. In other words, when the system isn't for-profit across the board like that, swindlers and money whores have no place to go. So they all go to America where it's basically a free for all for those types of greedy-ass doctors who are fine with taking advantage of vulnerable patients with money. They feel better when they get in their $300K car and drive home to their mansions.

    Anyway, the bottom line is that any healthcare system that is for-profit, where insurance companies have the goal of keeping costs to a minimum, is simply fucking dangerous as fuck, and guarantees that everyone but the rich will ultimately get the short end of the stick. At best.
    You missed my entire point. But putting that aside for a second.  If for profit healthcare companies provide the vast majority of coverage for patients and payments to doctors are keeping costs to a minimum then why are they to blame for the high cost of the healthcare system?  And how is the healthcare system so costly?   That logic doesn’t compute.

    (and btw, in the US for profit health care companies are proven to have better quality outcomes and lower cost than direct government paid patients. So beyond your logic making no sense, it’s assumptions are wrong,  but, maybe that’s why it makes no sense).

    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,893
    edited November 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Piss away.

    Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

    i never said the system was better. 
    You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.
    I’m assuming that the best doctors are human beings. 

    Tell me - do you like to make a good salary?
    Many great doctors are completely repulsed by the American system and wouldn't work there for any amount of money. I think you forgot for a second that money isn't everything for all people.
    I personally make a much lower salary than I could because I've chosen the public sector. I left the corporate sector and better pay because I felt rather disgusted by how everyone was motivated by the bottom line alone, and by the greed and competitiveness. Sorry, but your belief that everyone thinks money is the most important thing is completely false. That's sad you think that.
    It’s a motivating factor for sure,  not the only one. It’s sad what a condescending person you have become.
    Lol, oh please.
    Obviously everyone on the face of the planet knows that money is a motivating factor. You drew a conclusion beyond that IMO. You assumed all the best doctors will be where they get paid the most. That is not true.
    You literally have no sense of humor unless it’s spelled out for you. 


    Well everyone who knows me knows that's not true, so maybe it's your sense of humour that's the problem? Or at least how you type it out? Because if you think there was supposed to be a joke in there somewhere, then you're doing something wrong, lol.
    My joke was the origjnal comment about you agreeing US has the best doctors. ;)

    of of course I know you don’t agree with that 
    Joke? I took that as sarcasm, not a joke, and your second comment really wiped out any levity one might have read into the first (that obviously I saw, which is why I asked you if you were just being bratty). Hey dude, don't blame me when your crappy joke went over like a lead brick. :lol:
    And if you haven't gathered, I'm pretty damned serious on this topic. I'm horrified by the American healthcare system (again, still acknowledging there are good doctors and other workers trying their best). With the gap between rich and poor getting bigger and bigger, and the growing employed poor, I sincerely worry for a lot of Americans if this system doesn't change. That is why I have such a negative reaction to people who pump up that system by passing around lies and misinformation about universal systems. It's definitely not a joking matter IMO. Especially not since even some Canadians who are more willing to believe whatever they hear or read get sucked in by it, get into the 'the grass is always greener' mindset, and that leads to obvious issues in my own country, and I am, of course, fiercely protective of our own healthcare system, as are many Canadians. That is yet another symptom of living right next door to the USA. And another example of why we are so concerned about what goes on down there.Some of our worst politicians look at the US as a kind of demonstration of what they might be able to pull of here. This issue comes into that as well for them. It's not a laughing matter.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Hi! said:
    Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...



    Lol, I love her.
    Just curious if she is actively trying to keep Amazon out of New York, which I dont think she is, or just voicing concerns of her constituents? Did she say she didnt want them in NY? Nothing ive seen says she has.
    Do you know that the OMB is?   And I find what you think hilarious. I would assume she wants Amazon out but has no idea why.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_Soul said:
    No, Canadians do not go to the US for quality - that is not what's happening. You obviously don't believe me, but that's just you being willfully ignorant and admittedly making up your own facts out of uninformed assumptions.
    Again, you clearly couldn't care less about the people in your own country, unless they impact you directly... I have to assume you haven't yet had a loved go bankrupt because they got cancer, or lose their rental because their rent had to go to an unexpected medical expense, or die because they couldn't afford treatment for something their insurer refused to cover.
    Or had to drink water in Flint. Or live next to a superfund site. And to not consider “social” policies as a means of placing less burden on an overburdened health care system is ignorant. And wouldn’t Sweden then have a prevalence of cystic fibrosis burdening their health care system, being as homogeneous as you claim @[email protected]?

    According to the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation Patient Registry, in the United States:

    • More than 30,000 people are living with cystic fibrosis (more than 70,000 worldwide).
    • Approximately 1,000 new cases of CF are diagnosed each year.
    • More than 75 percent of people with CF are diagnosed by age 2.
    • More than half of the CF population is age 18 or older. 

    Are the other 40,000 all in Sweden?

    And, yes - Flint and the like need to be fixed.   Of course, social policy needs to be addressed.  That was my earlier point about education, etc. We need to stop looking at solving the healthcare system by throwing money DIRECTLY at it.  We need to fix the underlying causes. Some, like you mention can and should be addressed. 
    WTF is that? Are all sickle cell patients living in the US? 
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  • Hi!Hi! Posts: 1,612
    edited November 2018
    Hi! said:
    Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...



    Lol, I love her.
    Just curious if she is actively trying to keep Amazon out of New York, which I dont think she is, or just voicing concerns of her constituents? Did she say she didnt want them in NY? Nothing ive seen says she has.
    Do you know that the OMB is?   And I find what you think hilarious. I would assume she wants Amazon out but has no idea why.
    I dont know alot of things. Why do you assume she wants them out? She isnt the only one that has voiced  concerns. Gilliabrand has echoed similar sentiments for example. If pushed im sure they would ultimatley side with Amazon. I just wonder about the trillion dollar man and the Amazon empire. Bezos sits on the Pentagon advisory board. I just feel like maybe Amazon is maybe a little to powerful and any oversight should be considered or welcomed. Didnt the deal include being able to bypass city council for certain matters?
    Post edited by Hi! on
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 10,484
    Hi! said:
    Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...



    Lol, I love her.
    Just curious if she is actively trying to keep Amazon out of New York, which I dont think she is, or just voicing concerns of her constituents? Did she say she didnt want them in NY? Nothing ive seen says she has.
    Do you know that the OMB is?   And I find what you think hilarious. I would assume she wants Amazon out but has no idea why.
    Why do you assume she has no idea why? Why would you assume that other people don’t understand their own motivations?
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Hi! said:
    Hi! said:
    Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...



    Lol, I love her.
    Just curious if she is actively trying to keep Amazon out of New York, which I dont think she is, or just voicing concerns of her constituents? Did she say she didnt want them in NY? Nothing ive seen says she has.
    Do you know that the OMB is?   And I find what you think hilarious. I would assume she wants Amazon out but has no idea why.
    I dont know alot of things. Why do you assume she wants them out? She isnt the only one that has voiced  concerns. Gilliabrand has echoed similar sentiments for example. If pushed im sure they would ultimatley side with Amazon. I just wonder about the trillion dollar man and the Amazon empire. Bezos sits on the Pentagon advisory board. I just feel like maybe Amazon is maybe a little to powerful and any oversight should be considered or welcomed. Didnt the deal include being able to bypass city council for certain matters?
    Anything she recommends spending on will be scored with a 10 year financial projection by the Office of management and Budget (OMB).   That score must be paid for either with new taxes (which even chuck schumer would not survive if he voted for it in this case) or what’s commonly referred to as Payfors.  Payfors are taking money from other places in the budget to pay for it.  Good luck finding enough of that for the price tag this will get.  There are exceptions to this like disaster relief and such.  So, if she can attach her ideas to one of those like the wildfires in California that will be done soon, she can ram it on through.   Good luck with that on the amount this is going to cost.  Not going to slip that one by the goalie.

    anyway, why do you think he insisted on bypassing Nyc council and Cuomo agreed to it?  Because they all know DeBlasio and the council liberals are idiots that would sink the city given the opportunity.   Cuomo has basically been forced to do things to limit their idiocy.  

    Amd stop focusing in hes a billionaire so he shouldn’t be dealt with.  The fact is, he doesn’t need any of this.  He can take what he’s made and go home. But this new representative is actually speaking out against them bringing 25,000 high paying jobs not to mention thousands of resulting construction and service industry jobs to an area that just 10 years ago nobody wanted to go.  Do people really think the way to help people is to not do these things?  All because someone who already has more money than he and his next 10 generations could ever use might get a little more?  At the expense of....enriching people and the area he’s bringing his company too?   

    So dont bring your company.  nY an NyC don’t need your tax dollars, your employees tax dollars and discretionary spending or your buildings.   We like wallowing in our own pity.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • Hi! said:
    Looks like she has a sense of humor and a bullshit detector...



    Lol, I love her.
    Just curious if she is actively trying to keep Amazon out of New York, which I dont think she is, or just voicing concerns of her constituents? Did she say she didnt want them in NY? Nothing ive seen says she has.
    Do you know that the OMB is?   And I find what you think hilarious. I would assume she wants Amazon out but has no idea why.
    Why do you assume she has no idea why? Why would you assume that other people don’t understand their own motivations?
    Because of the number of naive things she’s already said in her short time in the public eye.  It’s a fair assumption of her based on that.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
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