Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez

PJ_Soul

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

PJ_Soul said:

cincybearcat said:

So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.

Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.

Piss away.

Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

i never said the system was better. 

You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.

I’m assuming that the best doctors are human beings. 

Tell me - do you like to make a good salary?

Many great doctors are completely repulsed by the American system and wouldn't work there for any amount of money. I think you forgot for a second that money isn't everything for all people.

I personally make a much lower salary than I could because I've chosen the public sector. I left the corporate sector and better pay because I felt rather disgusted by how everyone was motivated by the bottom line alone, and by the greed and competitiveness. Sorry, but your belief that everyone thinks money is the most important thing is completely false. That's sad you think that.

Halifax2TheMax

EdsonNascimento said:

What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 

Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious. And what’s the effect on taxes on those things that are bad? To pay for a healthier overall society? And anyone who lives in America should be embarrassed by our infant mortality rate and the number of women who die during childbirth. Absolutely fucking embarrassing for “the greatest country on earth,” with the best president ever.

PJ_Soul

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 

Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.

You really don't have to ask, do you?

EdsonNascimento

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 

Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.

Ha, ha, ha. I knew it was dangerous ground to go to b/c immediately I'm racist.   Are you trying to compare to US Obesity rates vs. anywhere in the world? We are the fattest.  But, that's not necessarily tied to a particular group, so could happen for any reason anywhere. 
The fact is you are picking Social related issues that is actually more racist than me picking a very clear race-disease correlation that's based on fact, and as I said just one example, that I felt was easy for everyone to understand..  

But, don't worry. Most Liberals are racist. They just think they hide it by trying to point it out when it doesn't exist in others.

PJ_Soul

Spiritual_Chaos

EdsonNascimento said:

Anyone who thinks Government can run anything better than a competitive free market is not being honest about the government around them.

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/the-16-countries-with-the-worlds-best-healthcare-systems-2017-1/


and

" the United States finished a dismal 35th, according to a much anticipated ranking of healthcare quality in 195 countries, released Friday.

/.../

Of the 20 countries heading up the list, all but Australia and Japan (No. 11) are in western Europe, where virtually every nation boasts some form of universal health coverage."

EdsonNascimento

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 

Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.

You really don't have to ask, do you?

Are you working on your 5th grade research project I asked you about?

PJ_Soul

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 

Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.

You really don't have to ask, do you?

Are you working on your 5th grade research project I asked you about?

Lol, no, because you are now just sounding delusional, so I'm not about to bother. I'm serious. I'm not just saying that because I don't feel like it or don't think I can. You've crossed the line from rational discussion into some crazy zone that I'm not willing to engage in. I don't know who pulled the wool over your eyes man, but they did a REALLY good job.

Halifax2TheMax

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 

Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.

Ha, ha, ha. I knew it was dangerous ground to go to b/c immediately I'm racist.   Are you trying to compare to US Obesity rates vs. anywhere in the world? We are the fattest.  But, that's not necessarily tied to a particular group, so could happen for any reason anywhere. 
The fact is you are picking Social related issues that is actually more racist than me picking a very clear race-disease correlation that's based on fact, and as I said just one example, that I felt was easy for everyone to understand..  

But, don't worry. Most Liberals are racist. They just think they hide it by trying to point it out when it doesn't exist in others.

So the effects of health on the health care system should only be determined by luck of the draw, or should I say, gene? And you didn’t answer the question despite claiming you could have picked any number of other diseases prevelant in other races. Obesity rates in US to Canada. Or US compared to any of the top16 as our Swedish friend posted. Are we comparing US health care to Afghanistan now? Bait and switch and I await your response.

You must have a guilty conscience as you called yourself racist, I didn’t. I asked a question.
 

EdsonNascimento

Spiritual_Chaos said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Anyone who thinks Government can run anything better than a competitive free market is not being honest about the government around them.

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/the-16-countries-with-the-worlds-best-healthcare-systems-2017-1/

Ha, ha. Is it risk adjusted?  Does it adjust for demographics? 

Nordic. Too funny.

16. Canada — Canada's 1984 Health Act entrenches in law the country's system of free at the point of access healthcare, known as Medicare. Canada's system is not perfect however, and in recent years the number of Canadians going south for private care in the USA has grown.

Thank you for proving my point.  Access to care limited.  I stopped reading there.  Without that as a criteria, you're embarrassing yourselves.   I think it's funny when Canadians criticize the US.   Those guys are great.  They're like that little kid down the block that you let play 2nd, special deep center fielder and he thinks he's in the game. 

Here's what's funny about all the included pictures. None of them include any diversity. It appears New Zealand comes the closest.

PJ_Soul

You point has NOT been proven at all, for the reasons I already offered. Access to care is not limited in any of those countries, and the ONLY reason it says that about Canada and not the other is, shock, because Canada is the only one that shares a border with the USA, lol. About 80 people per 20,000 ever cross the border for any healthcare, and far less than that do it out of necessity. That proves nothing except for what I already explained re specialists/population pool/specialist poaching. You are SNOWED man. I also notice that you haven't mentioned a word about what the US healthcare system does NOT do for Americans. How it hurts them in ways none of those other countries do because they find it appalling. Do you care? I have to assume you don't.

Again, I'm in no pissing contest here (I think you are?). I just want to always stand up for Americans' rights when it comes to their healthcare, and that they don't get now. It's horrible, and Americans should be fighting for those rights... meanwhile, folks like you are defending this horrible, inhumane system. It's sick.

EdsonNascimento

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 

Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.

Ha, ha, ha. I knew it was dangerous ground to go to b/c immediately I'm racist.   Are you trying to compare to US Obesity rates vs. anywhere in the world? We are the fattest.  But, that's not necessarily tied to a particular group, so could happen for any reason anywhere. 
The fact is you are picking Social related issues that is actually more racist than me picking a very clear race-disease correlation that's based on fact, and as I said just one example, that I felt was easy for everyone to understand..  

But, don't worry. Most Liberals are racist. They just think they hide it by trying to point it out when it doesn't exist in others.

So the effects of health on the health care system should only be determined by luck of the draw, or should I say, gene? And you didn’t answer the question despite claiming you could have picked any number of other diseases prevelant in other races. Obesity rates in US to Canada. Or US compared to any of the top16 as our Swedish friend posted. Are we comparing US health care to Afghanistan now? Bait and switch and I await your response.

You must have a guilty conscience as you called yourself racist, I didn’t. I asked a question.
 

Well, I think I answered your question in my response, but I'll try to say it again - I was pointing out that country diversity which is a strength of the US results in a much more diverse disease prevalence. I did not choose gun shots b/c that's not necessarily driven by that diversity (i.e. it could prove to be more heavily focused on one thing or another, but ultimately, that's a social issue that creates healthcare cost). Likewise Obesity (and btw, I did mention that when talking about education as the necessary precursor to successful healthcare).  Americans are extremely overweight and that does put an extra burden on the healthcare system.  

But, what I was trying to point out is that there are disease drivers that are gene based that the US presents more of than, in this case, Canada (in fairness, i should have quoted an early statement I made to make that connection clearer).  I also felt like the Sickle Cell trait was a pretty well known one that would be offensive to nobody, as it's a pretty clear cut connection unfortunately. But, I should remember i am in the land of I'm offended.  So, again - easy for Sweden to present good statistics, but let's throw some diversity in there and see what happens.  Not blaming anyone. Not calling anyone out.    Without properly adjusting for all the inherent variables, you have a faulty study.

But, I will be more than happy to get my care in the US system over Canada. And ultimately, that's the truest measure of a healthcare system. When you are in desperate need of care, where do you go? Canadians go to the US for quality.  US folks go to Canada for price (drugs) reason.  I'll take quality when it comes to my health, thank you very much.

EdsonNascimento

PJ_Soul said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

EdsonNascimento said:

What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 

Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.

You really don't have to ask, do you?

Are you working on your 5th grade research project I asked you about?

Lol, no, because you are now just sounding delusional, so I'm not about to bother. I'm serious. I'm not just saying that because I don't feel like it or don't think I can. You've crossed the line from rational discussion into some crazy zone that I'm not willing to engage in. I don't know who pulled the wool over your eyes man, but they did a REALLY good job.

Cool. Glad I gave you cover to remain under educated.

PJ_Soul

No, Canadians do not go to the US for quality - that is not what's happening. You obviously don't believe me, but that's just you being willfully ignorant and admittedly making up your own facts out of uninformed assumptions.

Again, you clearly couldn't care less about the people in your own country, unless they impact you directly... I have to assume you haven't yet had a loved go bankrupt because they got cancer, or lose their rental because their rent had to go to an unexpected medical expense, or die because they couldn't afford treatment for something their insurer refused to cover.

jeffbr

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

It's starting to bug me t

Everybody in the world besides some Americans know that the US healthcare system is terrible and one big human right violation. I don't even know wtf to make of those who do think it's better than Canada's, unless they're rich enough to not care. And that they don't understand how they've been brainwashed I guess? It sure isn't true that Canadians go to America for surgeries because Canada's system is inferior, but I know some people actually buy that crap.

Why do they then?

Hardly any do, but when they do, it's because America has 325 million people in it, and Canada only has 37 million people in it (different sized pool of doctors), plus America's twisted for profit system poaches doctors from elsewhere by paying them tons of money. So of course certain rare specialists can only be found in America sometimes, so they have to go there (if they can afford it - most can't). Also, Canada's system does sometimes create waiting lists for NON-urgent surgeries, say for a hip replacement or something, so RICH Canadians sometimes choose to either go to a private clinic here (Yes, Canada does have for profit medical care options too FYI, for the rich. Most Americans aren't even aware of that), or they skip down to the states and do it, depending on what they're looking for and I gather after comparison shopping or whatever, and they happen to find something that suits what they're looking for better across the border.

Just to put it in perspective, here is a nice pie chart for you. I suggest that you stop getting your information from Ted Cruz, lol.

(source: incidental economist)

Does the incidental economist (what a funny title) have a pie chart for neurosurgery or cardiac valve replacement only and not of the entire system? I'd hope primary care could be taken care of locally. But, what about focusing on the complicated super specialties like these and others that are the true indication of the value of the healthcare system.

I'll be honest. I can be asking a question that's counter to my argument.  I don't know for sure what my question will produce (though I have my suspicions).  But, if I'm to be proven wrong, i want it to be via a proper analysis and not some stupid 2nd grad pie chart that an imbecile could (and probably did) put together. 

Again, go deep.  You're embarrassing yourself with these esoteric, surface type "proofs."

I certainly haven't done my doctoral dissertation in the last 5 minutes, so I'll have to rely a bit more on surface analysis of the data. You touted neurosurgery and cardiac valve replacement as super specialties, but based on that narrow view, you've excluded what healthcare means for most people. When looking at mortality rates, we're most concerned with most people. But it is interesting to break it down into specialties and see what things look like. Here's an interesting collection of charts about comparable mortality rates for various causes of mortality, so it digs a little deeper that just the top numbers, and breaks it down by circulatory, respiratory, cancer, external causes, mental health/behavioral, neurosystem and Endocrine/Nutritional/Metabolic. Guess what? Other than cancers, where we're slightly ahead, we lag. We lag in circulatory (your focus specifically on cardiac valve replacement notwithstanding), we lag in repiratory, we lag in mental health, we lag in neurosystem (your focus specifically on neurosurgery nothwithstanding), and of course in external causes. 

How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries?

So yay for us for having a handle on cancer. And I guess yay for us for having super-specialists that treat a very narrow sector of the population of healthcare consumers. But for all of the money we spend, it sure sucks getting participation trophies in those other areas. If money was the answer and all the best doctors are in the US, then explain how this is efficient or effective? 

Here's an interesting dashboard if you want to venture outside the mortality measures into other measures like physicians per capita (we are below average), healthcare spending (we are above average), wait times (careful, we are only better than Canada here, but lag behind everyone else):

Health System Dashboard

Overall, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that what we have in the US is a)better (outcomes, mortality); b)cost effective; c)efficient; or d)accessible. We can do better. 

Spiritual_Chaos

EdsonNascimento said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Anyone who thinks Government can run anything better than a competitive free market is not being honest about the government around them.

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/the-16-countries-with-the-worlds-best-healthcare-systems-2017-1/

Ha, ha. Is it risk adjusted?  Does it adjust for demographics? 

Nordic. Too funny.

16. Canada — Canada's 1984 Health Act entrenches in law the country's system of free at the point of access healthcare, known as Medicare. Canada's system is not perfect however, and in recent years the number of Canadians going south for private care in the USA has grown.

Thank you for proving my point.  Access to care limited.  I stopped reading there.  Without that as a criteria, you're embarrassing yourselves.   I think it's funny when Canadians criticize the US.   Those guys are great.  They're like that little kid down the block that you let play 2nd, special deep center fielder and he thinks he's in the game. 

Here's what's funny about all the included pictures. None of them include any diversity. It appears New Zealand comes the closest.

Why do americans always pull out the "b-b-b-b-but we're diverse!" card. Whatever the subject, when pushed to the wall. That or "b-b-b-but we're so many peopleeeee.... we have to have predatory capitalism roam free because of us being so many people and so diverse"

What is too funny about "Nordic"?

In what way is "access to care limited" in a context where you go bankrupt in the US for a heartattack? And how much do you pay for medicine?  

EdsonNascimento

PJ_Soul said:

No, Canadians do not go to the US for quality - that is not what's happening. You obviously don't believe me, but that's just you being willfully ignorant and admittedly making up your own facts out of uninformed assumptions.

Again, you clearly couldn't care less about the people in your own country, unless they impact you directly... I have to assume you haven't yet had a loved go bankrupt because they got cancer, or lose their rental because their rent had to go to an unexpected medical expense, or die because they couldn't afford treatment for something their insurer refused to cover.

Again, so why are they going?  And I saw above not out of need.    Who determines need?  Is it your insurance companies?  And why are they going? Because they want to pay for more expensive, less effective care?

To your latter point - the US system could definitely use fixing by bending the cost curve through coordinated care.  However, what Obama did set that back 10 years.  you can't just hand out money and make it better.    That only served to make it more expensive (As most liberal policies do - if you put more money into the system without properly aligning incentives across all participants in the system, the price meets the demand).

And, yeah, but i also haven't had relatives go bankrupt AND cross the border because my government told them brain surgery wasn't necessary.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/desperate-canadian-heads-to-us-for-pineal-cyst-surgery-1.3306722

We can all play the horror story in the news game. I don't think this is common (even though the article tries to make it sound as such).  Yet, your sound bites are the same.  Yes, these horrendous things happen. We need to fix that. 

dignin

jeffbr said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

EdsonNascimento said:

PJ_Soul said:

It's starting to bug me t

Everybody in the world besides some Americans know that the US healthcare system is terrible and one big human right violation. I don't even know wtf to make of those who do think it's better than Canada's, unless they're rich enough to not care. And that they don't understand how they've been brainwashed I guess? It sure isn't true that Canadians go to America for surgeries because Canada's system is inferior, but I know some people actually buy that crap.

Why do they then?

Hardly any do, but when they do, it's because America has 325 million people in it, and Canada only has 37 million people in it (different sized pool of doctors), plus America's twisted for profit system poaches doctors from elsewhere by paying them tons of money. So of course certain rare specialists can only be found in America sometimes, so they have to go there (if they can afford it - most can't). Also, Canada's system does sometimes create waiting lists for NON-urgent surgeries, say for a hip replacement or something, so RICH Canadians sometimes choose to either go to a private clinic here (Yes, Canada does have for profit medical care options too FYI, for the rich. Most Americans aren't even aware of that), or they skip down to the states and do it, depending on what they're looking for and I gather after comparison shopping or whatever, and they happen to find something that suits what they're looking for better across the border.

Just to put it in perspective, here is a nice pie chart for you. I suggest that you stop getting your information from Ted Cruz, lol.

(source: incidental economist)

Does the incidental economist (what a funny title) have a pie chart for neurosurgery or cardiac valve replacement only and not of the entire system? I'd hope primary care could be taken care of locally. But, what about focusing on the complicated super specialties like these and others that are the true indication of the value of the healthcare system.

I'll be honest. I can be asking a question that's counter to my argument.  I don't know for sure what my question will produce (though I have my suspicions).  But, if I'm to be proven wrong, i want it to be via a proper analysis and not some stupid 2nd grad pie chart that an imbecile could (and probably did) put together. 

Again, go deep.  You're embarrassing yourself with these esoteric, surface type "proofs."

I certainly haven't done my doctoral dissertation in the last 5 minutes, so I'll have to rely a bit more on surface analysis of the data. You touted neurosurgery and cardiac valve replacement as super specialties, but based on that narrow view, you've excluded what healthcare means for most people. When looking at mortality rates, we're most concerned with most people. But it is interesting to break it down into specialties and see what things look like. Here's an interesting collection of charts about comparable mortality rates for various causes of mortality, so it digs a little deeper that just the top numbers, and breaks it down by circulatory, respiratory, cancer, external causes, mental health/behavioral, neurosystem and Endocrine/Nutritional/Metabolic. Guess what? Other than cancers, where we're slightly ahead, we lag. We lag in circulatory (your focus specifically on cardiac valve replacement notwithstanding), we lag in repiratory, we lag in mental health, we lag in neurosystem (your focus specifically on neurosurgery nothwithstanding), and of course in external causes. 

How do mortality rates in the U.S. compare to other countries?

So yay for us for having a handle on cancer. And I guess yay for us for having super-specialists that treat a very narrow sector of the population of healthcare consumers. But for all of the money we spend, it sure sucks getting participation trophies in those other areas. If money was the answer and all the best doctors are in the US, then explain how this is efficient or effective? 

Here's an interesting dashboard if you want to venture outside the mortality measures into other measures like physicians per capita (we are below average), healthcare spending (we are above average), wait times (careful, we are only better than Canada here, but lag behind everyone else):

Health System Dashboard

Overall, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that what we have in the US is a)better (outcomes, mortality); b)cost effective; c)efficient; or d)accessible. We can do better. 

I wonder if they consider wait times for Americans who don't have access to health care or only wait times for Americans with health care? I would suspect wait times are shorter in America because there are less people in line (per capita). Everyone is in line in Canada.

Halifax2TheMax

PJ_Soul said:

No, Canadians do not go to the US for quality - that is not what's happening. You obviously don't believe me, but that's just you being willfully ignorant and admittedly making up your own facts out of uninformed assumptions.

Again, you clearly couldn't care less about the people in your own country, unless they impact you directly... I have to assume you haven't yet had a loved go bankrupt because they got cancer, or lose their rental because their rent had to go to an unexpected medical expense, or die because they couldn't afford treatment for something their insurer refused to cover.

Or had to drink water in Flint. Or live next to a superfund site. And to not consider “social” policies as a means of placing less burden on an overburdened health care system is ignorant. And wouldn’t Sweden then have a prevalence of cystic fibrosis burdening their health care system, being as homogeneous as you claim @e@EdsonNascimento?

PJ_Soul

BTW, my rich sister goes to the US for healthcare sometimes. Know why? Because she a complete hypochondriac. She goes there when the doctors at the exclusive private clinics here (where they are closely regulated) won't humour her disorder anymore. She never has trouble finding some quack in the USA who charges thousands and thousands of dollars to perform quack procedures that make no fucking sense - she'd get as much benefit out of going to one of those people obsessed with the power of crystals. But because of the strength of lack of regulation in the for-profit healthcare industry in the US, people like my hypochondriac sister go down, have a spa day, and let some asshole doctor who puts money before morals tell them what they want to hear. That is the kind of crap that a for-profit healthcare industry creates (not that I don't know that there are many amazing, caring doctors down there too btw. Of course there are. Again, I say this with a desire for the American healthcare system to be great, not to just hate on it. But with fools pretending a broken system is a great system, that will never happen).