Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez

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Comments

  • dignindignin Posts: 6,770
    dignin said:
    dignin said:
    I guess we should all just except corporate welfare. I just don't know how anyone, especially conservatives can make that right in their minds.
    Just because you assign a pejorative label to it, doesn't make it so.   Have you done the research to determine the net impact over the next 20 years of the incentives agreed to by a Democratic Governor? 
    Have you tried to look at the bigger picture to see how cities, states/provinces and countries bidding against each other is a race to the bottom and terrible for taxpayers?

    Great for corporations and share holders though.
    Really? So NYC is struggling b/c they have CitiGroup, IBM, JP Morgan, Verizon, American Express?  

    Lol.  You don't seem to be aware of how this all actually works.  Yes, there have been major boondoggles where municipalities have given incentives that didn't payoff.  However, there are many more that do.  Go back to Pre-Rudy Giuliani and Post and let me know how NYC looked before and after a strategic plan of attracting large, profitable corporations impacts a city.  NYC once almost went bankrupt running purely liberal policies. And Cuomo is actually preventing Deblasio from doing the same.  

    Everyone thinks - well, NYC always has these companies and does well. Ummm. No. It didn't.
    Again, you fail to see the bigger picture. Why do conservatives always seem to have a problem with seeing the long game. It's all about the quick buck.

    Of course NY is going to see a net benefit, nobody is arguing they won't. But they will be hardly getting their fair share. The real wealth will hardly be seen by NY tax payers, that will go to Jeff and a select few. That's the point. Everyone cutting each others throats for scraps. You like scraps, that's cool. I think we can demand more.
  • jeffbr said:
    jeffbr said:
    It’s funny,   A Democrat brings thousands of high paying jobs to a city area and people still complain.   Think of all the people who own properties in that area that just became millionaires!   Yes, some were already, but many were not,  why does everything have to be that if it helps 1 rich person it’s bad.  Does anyone realize anything that happens, the rich are going to get richer.  So, ignore the noise and ask yourself - will a lot of less rich be helped by this?   Governor Cuomo seems to think so.  Unless, that is, he’s in on it too!

    You get that people making $125k/yr pay a lot in taxes.  Right?  And what at least in theory can he done  with those tax dollars?     And what about the hardworking janitors and cleaning people and other service industry that will crop up around this new HQ?  Those jobs don’t count because there will be people making more?   (Not to mention all the construction jobs that just got created for the next 5-10 years).

    She’s in over her head.  If she wants to just pay for healthcare, this is how you do it.  Give people jobs with access to healthcare, and collect more taxes to pay for those that don’t.  She reminds me of my nephews and nieces BEFORE they went to college.  Interesting how their views changed once they started working and had real jobs. 

    And not to put words in his mouth, but this is what Jason P is referring to.  She should chase Amazon away so a nice midwestern town can reap the benefits.   

    So, to recount Queens’ newly minted Rep thinks - Jobs bad.  Paying for healthcare easy.  Yes, we get what we deserve indeed.
    Why is healthcare attached to jobs? Why does their plan and their physical and mental health revolve around the particular terms of their employment? 
    It doesn't have to be and that's a fair (but wrong headed) debate.  Why would you want to give up BILLIONS of healthcare subsidies from corporations that are based on competition for employees? I'm sure you don't understand all that means, but taxation replacing competitive healthcare subsidy would be the absolutely dumbest thing we could do as a country (and thus why Obama went down that road - he's not too bright when it comes to healthcare and bending the cost curve).   There are many more people who successfully navigate employment to maintain their health coverage that is better than anything the government could ever reasonably provide (including ensuring proper, comprehensive access that countries with national care do not).

    Go ahead - chase Amazon away. Kill Employer subsidized coverage.  Do the math. It's not pretty.  It's funny to me how people do these polls showing "uneducated" white man votes for Trump. Uneducated means a lot of things. There are a lot of people holding college degrees, even PhD's that are not very smart as it pertains to anything outside a book.  Just as there are a lot of people who don't have college educations that are brilliant  (hmmmmmmm... Can you think of someone you might think this of that is related to this very message board?).
    That's cute. So you're saying the US scheme provides better, more efficient healthcare than other industrialized nations? Is that borne out in our mortality rates? How does our per capita healthcare spending vis-a-vis our mortality rate compare with other western democracies? (hint: we're way at the top by a large margin for the former, and we're nowhere near the top for the latter). 
    I can make statistics say things too.  How heterogeneous are the populations of the other countries you speak of? What are the salaries of doctors in those other countries (or do you think we should cut their salaries?)?  You can't simply take those snippets. you have to know how to put them in proper perspective. What's our teen pregnancy ratio vs. other countries?  Should we abandon them or take care of them and the higher incident of both cost and poor outcomes?  These are just examples. Think a bit deeper than what the media feeds you. Where Trump is wrong is it's not FAKE news. But, it is misrepresented news.   What they are saying most of the time is true. It's just not well thought out or objectively presented.

    We have many more deep seeded problems that we've accepted and feel right to address than other countries simply don't address.   And that comes at a cost both financially and morbidity-wise.  So, yes our healthcare system is better than Canada (for example). People might go to Canada to get their meds b/c of that pricing anomaly.  But, they aren't going there to get surgeries.  
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • dignin said:
    dignin said:
    dignin said:
    I guess we should all just except corporate welfare. I just don't know how anyone, especially conservatives can make that right in their minds.
    Just because you assign a pejorative label to it, doesn't make it so.   Have you done the research to determine the net impact over the next 20 years of the incentives agreed to by a Democratic Governor? 
    Have you tried to look at the bigger picture to see how cities, states/provinces and countries bidding against each other is a race to the bottom and terrible for taxpayers?

    Great for corporations and share holders though.
    Really? So NYC is struggling b/c they have CitiGroup, IBM, JP Morgan, Verizon, American Express?  

    Lol.  You don't seem to be aware of how this all actually works.  Yes, there have been major boondoggles where municipalities have given incentives that didn't payoff.  However, there are many more that do.  Go back to Pre-Rudy Giuliani and Post and let me know how NYC looked before and after a strategic plan of attracting large, profitable corporations impacts a city.  NYC once almost went bankrupt running purely liberal policies. And Cuomo is actually preventing Deblasio from doing the same.  

    Everyone thinks - well, NYC always has these companies and does well. Ummm. No. It didn't.
    Again, you fail to see the bigger picture. Why do conservatives always seem to have a problem with seeing the long game. It's all about the quick buck.

    Of course NY is going to see a net benefit, nobody is arguing they won't. But they will be hardly getting their fair share. The real wealth will hardly be seen by NY tax payers, that will go to Jeff and a select few. That's the point. Everyone cutting each others throats for scraps. You like scraps, that's cool. I think we can demand more.
    This move removes the older communities.  It's great for corporate NY bad for the little guy.

    The neighborhood has been changing there over the last 10 years so this might be the best place for it but it will be forcing out the last of the older communities that existed there.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,257
    edited November 2018
    jeffbr said:
    jeffbr said:
    It’s funny,   A Democrat brings thousands of high paying jobs to a city area and people still complain.   Think of all the people who own properties in that area that just became millionaires!   Yes, some were already, but many were not,  why does everything have to be that if it helps 1 rich person it’s bad.  Does anyone realize anything that happens, the rich are going to get richer.  So, ignore the noise and ask yourself - will a lot of less rich be helped by this?   Governor Cuomo seems to think so.  Unless, that is, he’s in on it too!

    You get that people making $125k/yr pay a lot in taxes.  Right?  And what at least in theory can he done  with those tax dollars?     And what about the hardworking janitors and cleaning people and other service industry that will crop up around this new HQ?  Those jobs don’t count because there will be people making more?   (Not to mention all the construction jobs that just got created for the next 5-10 years).

    She’s in over her head.  If she wants to just pay for healthcare, this is how you do it.  Give people jobs with access to healthcare, and collect more taxes to pay for those that don’t.  She reminds me of my nephews and nieces BEFORE they went to college.  Interesting how their views changed once they started working and had real jobs. 

    And not to put words in his mouth, but this is what Jason P is referring to.  She should chase Amazon away so a nice midwestern town can reap the benefits.   

    So, to recount Queens’ newly minted Rep thinks - Jobs bad.  Paying for healthcare easy.  Yes, we get what we deserve indeed.
    Why is healthcare attached to jobs? Why does their plan and their physical and mental health revolve around the particular terms of their employment? 
    It doesn't have to be and that's a fair (but wrong headed) debate.  Why would you want to give up BILLIONS of healthcare subsidies from corporations that are based on competition for employees? I'm sure you don't understand all that means, but taxation replacing competitive healthcare subsidy would be the absolutely dumbest thing we could do as a country (and thus why Obama went down that road - he's not too bright when it comes to healthcare and bending the cost curve).   There are many more people who successfully navigate employment to maintain their health coverage that is better than anything the government could ever reasonably provide (including ensuring proper, comprehensive access that countries with national care do not).

    Go ahead - chase Amazon away. Kill Employer subsidized coverage.  Do the math. It's not pretty.  It's funny to me how people do these polls showing "uneducated" white man votes for Trump. Uneducated means a lot of things. There are a lot of people holding college degrees, even PhD's that are not very smart as it pertains to anything outside a book.  Just as there are a lot of people who don't have college educations that are brilliant  (hmmmmmmm... Can you think of someone you might think this of that is related to this very message board?).
    That's cute. So you're saying the US scheme provides better, more efficient healthcare than other industrialized nations? Is that borne out in our mortality rates? How does our per capita healthcare spending vis-a-vis our mortality rate compare with other western democracies? (hint: we're way at the top by a large margin for the former, and we're nowhere near the top for the latter). 
    I can make statistics say things too.  How heterogeneous are the populations of the other countries you speak of? What are the salaries of doctors in those other countries (or do you think we should cut their salaries?)?  You can't simply take those snippets. you have to know how to put them in proper perspective. What's our teen pregnancy ratio vs. other countries?  Should we abandon them or take care of them and the higher incident of both cost and poor outcomes?  These are just examples. Think a bit deeper than what the media feeds you. Where Trump is wrong is it's not FAKE news. But, it is misrepresented news.   What they are saying most of the time is true. It's just not well thought out or objectively presented.

    We have many more deep seeded problems that we've accepted and feel right to address than other countries simply don't address.   And that comes at a cost both financially and morbidity-wise.  So, yes our healthcare system is better than Canada (for example). People might go to Canada to get their meds b/c of that pricing anomaly.  But, they aren't going there to get surgeries.  
    Here's why I believe Jeff is right. Employers and cooperations  don't pay the doctors and medical bills. They pay a third party who makes more money the less they pay for treatments. These third party insurance companies are a billion dollar industry. When insurance was first created it wasn't a necessity like it is now. People could still afford a doctor visit. But insurance has made that impossible. With what we pay in premiums alone our healthcare should be free. But we have to pay insurance premiums and a lot of money out of pocket on top of thay for any services we actually get.
    Two groups make money on health services. The health providers and the insurance companies. One of those provides virtually no health services directly to us, but takes nearly an equal share in the profit.
    I don't like the idea of socialized or government run care, but I think it would be better than what we have.
    I think the best option is keep it privatized, but get rid of the middle man (insurance).  Either pay for everything out of pocket, which would be a fraction of what it costs now, or have the health providers be their own insurance, like an HMO. If the goal was to make money only on services rendered and not on the policy itself, healthcare costs would be cut in half and much more affordable. 
    Most doctor offices have at least 1 full time employee to just deal with the mess that is insurance. That is why so many offer a cash discount if you claim to not have insurance. Why do we pay a third party so much money for our health care, it has gotten out of control.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,207
    mace1229 said:
    jeffbr said:
    jeffbr said:
    It’s funny,   A Democrat brings thousands of high paying jobs to a city area and people still complain.   Think of all the people who own properties in that area that just became millionaires!   Yes, some were already, but many were not,  why does everything have to be that if it helps 1 rich person it’s bad.  Does anyone realize anything that happens, the rich are going to get richer.  So, ignore the noise and ask yourself - will a lot of less rich be helped by this?   Governor Cuomo seems to think so.  Unless, that is, he’s in on it too!

    You get that people making $125k/yr pay a lot in taxes.  Right?  And what at least in theory can he done  with those tax dollars?     And what about the hardworking janitors and cleaning people and other service industry that will crop up around this new HQ?  Those jobs don’t count because there will be people making more?   (Not to mention all the construction jobs that just got created for the next 5-10 years).

    She’s in over her head.  If she wants to just pay for healthcare, this is how you do it.  Give people jobs with access to healthcare, and collect more taxes to pay for those that don’t.  She reminds me of my nephews and nieces BEFORE they went to college.  Interesting how their views changed once they started working and had real jobs. 

    And not to put words in his mouth, but this is what Jason P is referring to.  She should chase Amazon away so a nice midwestern town can reap the benefits.   

    So, to recount Queens’ newly minted Rep thinks - Jobs bad.  Paying for healthcare easy.  Yes, we get what we deserve indeed.
    Why is healthcare attached to jobs? Why does their plan and their physical and mental health revolve around the particular terms of their employment? 
    It doesn't have to be and that's a fair (but wrong headed) debate.  Why would you want to give up BILLIONS of healthcare subsidies from corporations that are based on competition for employees? I'm sure you don't understand all that means, but taxation replacing competitive healthcare subsidy would be the absolutely dumbest thing we could do as a country (and thus why Obama went down that road - he's not too bright when it comes to healthcare and bending the cost curve).   There are many more people who successfully navigate employment to maintain their health coverage that is better than anything the government could ever reasonably provide (including ensuring proper, comprehensive access that countries with national care do not).

    Go ahead - chase Amazon away. Kill Employer subsidized coverage.  Do the math. It's not pretty.  It's funny to me how people do these polls showing "uneducated" white man votes for Trump. Uneducated means a lot of things. There are a lot of people holding college degrees, even PhD's that are not very smart as it pertains to anything outside a book.  Just as there are a lot of people who don't have college educations that are brilliant  (hmmmmmmm... Can you think of someone you might think this of that is related to this very message board?).
    That's cute. So you're saying the US scheme provides better, more efficient healthcare than other industrialized nations? Is that borne out in our mortality rates? How does our per capita healthcare spending vis-a-vis our mortality rate compare with other western democracies? (hint: we're way at the top by a large margin for the former, and we're nowhere near the top for the latter). 
    I can make statistics say things too.  How heterogeneous are the populations of the other countries you speak of? What are the salaries of doctors in those other countries (or do you think we should cut their salaries?)?  You can't simply take those snippets. you have to know how to put them in proper perspective. What's our teen pregnancy ratio vs. other countries?  Should we abandon them or take care of them and the higher incident of both cost and poor outcomes?  These are just examples. Think a bit deeper than what the media feeds you. Where Trump is wrong is it's not FAKE news. But, it is misrepresented news.   What they are saying most of the time is true. It's just not well thought out or objectively presented.

    We have many more deep seeded problems that we've accepted and feel right to address than other countries simply don't address.   And that comes at a cost both financially and morbidity-wise.  So, yes our healthcare system is better than Canada (for example). People might go to Canada to get their meds b/c of that pricing anomaly.  But, they aren't going there to get surgeries.  
    Here's why I believe Jeff is right. Employers and cooperations  don't pay the doctors and medical bills. They pay a third party who makes more money the less they pay for treatments. These third party insurance companies are a billion dollar industry. When insurance was first created it wasn't a necessity like it is now. People could still afford a doctor visit. But insurance has made that impossible. With what we pay in premiums alone our healthcare should be free. But we have to pay insurance premiums and a lot of money out of pocket on top of thay for any services we actually get.
    Two groups make money on health services. The health providers and the insurance companies. One of those provides virtually no health services directly to us, but takes nearly an equal share in the profit.
    I don't like the idea of socialized or government run care, but I think it would be better than what we have.
    I think the best option is keep it privatized, but get rid of the middle man (insurance).  Either pay for everything out of pocket, which would be a fraction of what it costs now, or have the health providers be their own insurance, like an HMO. If the goal was to make money only on services rendered and not on the policy itself, healthcare costs would be cut in half and much more affordable. 
    Most doctor offices have at least 1 full time employee to just deal with the mess that is insurance. That is why so many offer a cash discount if you claim to not have insurance. Why do we pay a third party so much money for our health care, it has gotten out of control.
    Thanks, Mace. I think you're getting to the heart of the disconnect in this discussion. I think healthcare is what you described, and that is, well, healthcare - doctors providing care to patients. EdsonNascimento views healthcare as an industry, so his priority and concern is about maximizing profits for providers, insurers, pharma, etc... That's fine, but that shouldn't be the focus when discussing healthcare. A cash-only system absent the insurance middle-man would absolutely be a more cost-effective approach, but unfortunately would still leave a lot of people ass-out for many treatments and procedures. I was adamantly opposed to nationalized healthcare until fairly recently so I understand where EdsonNascimento  is coming from, but then I realized I was looking at things backwards. Healthcare seems fundamentally more important than education, infrastructure, police services, and fire services (since without healthcare, none of those other things matter if you're dead). And we have little problem with sharing the burden of education costs, infrastructure costs, police and fire service costs, etc... But for some reason when we want to do the same with the most fundamental services of all, people start getting itchy about socialism. It is a strange phenomenon.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • dignindignin Posts: 6,770
    jeffbr said:
    jeffbr said:
    It’s funny,   A Democrat brings thousands of high paying jobs to a city area and people still complain.   Think of all the people who own properties in that area that just became millionaires!   Yes, some were already, but many were not,  why does everything have to be that if it helps 1 rich person it’s bad.  Does anyone realize anything that happens, the rich are going to get richer.  So, ignore the noise and ask yourself - will a lot of less rich be helped by this?   Governor Cuomo seems to think so.  Unless, that is, he’s in on it too!

    You get that people making $125k/yr pay a lot in taxes.  Right?  And what at least in theory can he done  with those tax dollars?     And what about the hardworking janitors and cleaning people and other service industry that will crop up around this new HQ?  Those jobs don’t count because there will be people making more?   (Not to mention all the construction jobs that just got created for the next 5-10 years).

    She’s in over her head.  If she wants to just pay for healthcare, this is how you do it.  Give people jobs with access to healthcare, and collect more taxes to pay for those that don’t.  She reminds me of my nephews and nieces BEFORE they went to college.  Interesting how their views changed once they started working and had real jobs. 

    And not to put words in his mouth, but this is what Jason P is referring to.  She should chase Amazon away so a nice midwestern town can reap the benefits.   

    So, to recount Queens’ newly minted Rep thinks - Jobs bad.  Paying for healthcare easy.  Yes, we get what we deserve indeed.
    Why is healthcare attached to jobs? Why does their plan and their physical and mental health revolve around the particular terms of their employment? 
    It doesn't have to be and that's a fair (but wrong headed) debate.  Why would you want to give up BILLIONS of healthcare subsidies from corporations that are based on competition for employees? I'm sure you don't understand all that means, but taxation replacing competitive healthcare subsidy would be the absolutely dumbest thing we could do as a country (and thus why Obama went down that road - he's not too bright when it comes to healthcare and bending the cost curve).   There are many more people who successfully navigate employment to maintain their health coverage that is better than anything the government could ever reasonably provide (including ensuring proper, comprehensive access that countries with national care do not).

    Go ahead - chase Amazon away. Kill Employer subsidized coverage.  Do the math. It's not pretty.  It's funny to me how people do these polls showing "uneducated" white man votes for Trump. Uneducated means a lot of things. There are a lot of people holding college degrees, even PhD's that are not very smart as it pertains to anything outside a book.  Just as there are a lot of people who don't have college educations that are brilliant  (hmmmmmmm... Can you think of someone you might think this of that is related to this very message board?).
    That's cute. So you're saying the US scheme provides better, more efficient healthcare than other industrialized nations? Is that borne out in our mortality rates? How does our per capita healthcare spending vis-a-vis our mortality rate compare with other western democracies? (hint: we're way at the top by a large margin for the former, and we're nowhere near the top for the latter). 
    I can make statistics say things too.  How heterogeneous are the populations of the other countries you speak of? What are the salaries of doctors in those other countries (or do you think we should cut their salaries?)?  You can't simply take those snippets. you have to know how to put them in proper perspective. What's our teen pregnancy ratio vs. other countries?  Should we abandon them or take care of them and the higher incident of both cost and poor outcomes?  These are just examples. Think a bit deeper than what the media feeds you. Where Trump is wrong is it's not FAKE news. But, it is misrepresented news.   What they are saying most of the time is true. It's just not well thought out or objectively presented.

    We have many more deep seeded problems that we've accepted and feel right to address than other countries simply don't address.   And that comes at a cost both financially and morbidity-wise.  So, yes our healthcare system is better than Canada (for example). People might go to Canada to get their meds b/c of that pricing anomaly.  But, they aren't going there to get surgeries.  
    So you say that you have to look deeper and then say US health care system is better than Canada's because some Canadians go to the US for some surgeries? You see how that metric is problematic right?

  • mace1229 said:
    jeffbr said:
    jeffbr said:
    It’s funny,   A Democrat brings thousands of high paying jobs to a city area and people still complain.   Think of all the people who own properties in that area that just became millionaires!   Yes, some were already, but many were not,  why does everything have to be that if it helps 1 rich person it’s bad.  Does anyone realize anything that happens, the rich are going to get richer.  So, ignore the noise and ask yourself - will a lot of less rich be helped by this?   Governor Cuomo seems to think so.  Unless, that is, he’s in on it too!

    You get that people making $125k/yr pay a lot in taxes.  Right?  And what at least in theory can he done  with those tax dollars?     And what about the hardworking janitors and cleaning people and other service industry that will crop up around this new HQ?  Those jobs don’t count because there will be people making more?   (Not to mention all the construction jobs that just got created for the next 5-10 years).

    She’s in over her head.  If she wants to just pay for healthcare, this is how you do it.  Give people jobs with access to healthcare, and collect more taxes to pay for those that don’t.  She reminds me of my nephews and nieces BEFORE they went to college.  Interesting how their views changed once they started working and had real jobs. 

    And not to put words in his mouth, but this is what Jason P is referring to.  She should chase Amazon away so a nice midwestern town can reap the benefits.   

    So, to recount Queens’ newly minted Rep thinks - Jobs bad.  Paying for healthcare easy.  Yes, we get what we deserve indeed.
    Why is healthcare attached to jobs? Why does their plan and their physical and mental health revolve around the particular terms of their employment? 
    It doesn't have to be and that's a fair (but wrong headed) debate.  Why would you want to give up BILLIONS of healthcare subsidies from corporations that are based on competition for employees? I'm sure you don't understand all that means, but taxation replacing competitive healthcare subsidy would be the absolutely dumbest thing we could do as a country (and thus why Obama went down that road - he's not too bright when it comes to healthcare and bending the cost curve).   There are many more people who successfully navigate employment to maintain their health coverage that is better than anything the government could ever reasonably provide (including ensuring proper, comprehensive access that countries with national care do not).

    Go ahead - chase Amazon away. Kill Employer subsidized coverage.  Do the math. It's not pretty.  It's funny to me how people do these polls showing "uneducated" white man votes for Trump. Uneducated means a lot of things. There are a lot of people holding college degrees, even PhD's that are not very smart as it pertains to anything outside a book.  Just as there are a lot of people who don't have college educations that are brilliant  (hmmmmmmm... Can you think of someone you might think this of that is related to this very message board?).
    That's cute. So you're saying the US scheme provides better, more efficient healthcare than other industrialized nations? Is that borne out in our mortality rates? How does our per capita healthcare spending vis-a-vis our mortality rate compare with other western democracies? (hint: we're way at the top by a large margin for the former, and we're nowhere near the top for the latter). 
    I can make statistics say things too.  How heterogeneous are the populations of the other countries you speak of? What are the salaries of doctors in those other countries (or do you think we should cut their salaries?)?  You can't simply take those snippets. you have to know how to put them in proper perspective. What's our teen pregnancy ratio vs. other countries?  Should we abandon them or take care of them and the higher incident of both cost and poor outcomes?  These are just examples. Think a bit deeper than what the media feeds you. Where Trump is wrong is it's not FAKE news. But, it is misrepresented news.   What they are saying most of the time is true. It's just not well thought out or objectively presented.

    We have many more deep seeded problems that we've accepted and feel right to address than other countries simply don't address.   And that comes at a cost both financially and morbidity-wise.  So, yes our healthcare system is better than Canada (for example). People might go to Canada to get their meds b/c of that pricing anomaly.  But, they aren't going there to get surgeries.  
    Here's why I believe Jeff is right. Employers and cooperations  don't pay the doctors and medical bills. They pay a third party who makes more money the less they pay for treatments. These third party insurance companies are a billion dollar industry. When insurance was first created it wasn't a necessity like it is now. People could still afford a doctor visit. But insurance has made that impossible. With what we pay in premiums alone our healthcare should be free. But we have to pay insurance premiums and a lot of money out of pocket on top of thay for any services we actually get.
    Two groups make money on health services. The health providers and the insurance companies. One of those provides virtually no health services directly to us, but takes nearly an equal share in the profit.
    I don't like the idea of socialized or government run care, but I think it would be better than what we have.
    I think the best option is keep it privatized, but get rid of the middle man (insurance).  Either pay for everything out of pocket, which would be a fraction of what it costs now, or have the health providers be their own insurance, like an HMO. If the goal was to make money only on services rendered and not on the policy itself, healthcare costs would be cut in half and much more affordable. 
    Most doctor offices have at least 1 full time employee to just deal with the mess that is insurance. That is why so many offer a cash discount if you claim to not have insurance. Why do we pay a third party so much money for our health care, it has gotten out of control.
    Here's why he and you are wrong - Medicare Advantage provides greater benefits to Seniors and Disableds than Medicare Fee For Service (government direct pay) does for less cost.  MA bench marking (rate) formulas are based on a percentage of Medicare FFS.  In addition, they provide better quality as measured by CMS' quality scoring than Medicare FFS does.    

    In terms of commercial coverage- who here wants to give their current Employer sponsored coverage and contribution schedule up for complete out of pocket medical cost?

    Anyone who thinks Government can run anything better than a competitive free market is not being honest about the government around them.

    And if you think people could afford payments out of pocket - lol.  You are living in dream land. I want to join you and Alexandra there.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,276
    It's starting to bug me t
    dignin said:
    jeffbr said:
    jeffbr said:
    It’s funny,   A Democrat brings thousands of high paying jobs to a city area and people still complain.   Think of all the people who own properties in that area that just became millionaires!   Yes, some were already, but many were not,  why does everything have to be that if it helps 1 rich person it’s bad.  Does anyone realize anything that happens, the rich are going to get richer.  So, ignore the noise and ask yourself - will a lot of less rich be helped by this?   Governor Cuomo seems to think so.  Unless, that is, he’s in on it too!

    You get that people making $125k/yr pay a lot in taxes.  Right?  And what at least in theory can he done  with those tax dollars?     And what about the hardworking janitors and cleaning people and other service industry that will crop up around this new HQ?  Those jobs don’t count because there will be people making more?   (Not to mention all the construction jobs that just got created for the next 5-10 years).

    She’s in over her head.  If she wants to just pay for healthcare, this is how you do it.  Give people jobs with access to healthcare, and collect more taxes to pay for those that don’t.  She reminds me of my nephews and nieces BEFORE they went to college.  Interesting how their views changed once they started working and had real jobs. 

    And not to put words in his mouth, but this is what Jason P is referring to.  She should chase Amazon away so a nice midwestern town can reap the benefits.   

    So, to recount Queens’ newly minted Rep thinks - Jobs bad.  Paying for healthcare easy.  Yes, we get what we deserve indeed.
    Why is healthcare attached to jobs? Why does their plan and their physical and mental health revolve around the particular terms of their employment? 
    It doesn't have to be and that's a fair (but wrong headed) debate.  Why would you want to give up BILLIONS of healthcare subsidies from corporations that are based on competition for employees? I'm sure you don't understand all that means, but taxation replacing competitive healthcare subsidy would be the absolutely dumbest thing we could do as a country (and thus why Obama went down that road - he's not too bright when it comes to healthcare and bending the cost curve).   There are many more people who successfully navigate employment to maintain their health coverage that is better than anything the government could ever reasonably provide (including ensuring proper, comprehensive access that countries with national care do not).

    Go ahead - chase Amazon away. Kill Employer subsidized coverage.  Do the math. It's not pretty.  It's funny to me how people do these polls showing "uneducated" white man votes for Trump. Uneducated means a lot of things. There are a lot of people holding college degrees, even PhD's that are not very smart as it pertains to anything outside a book.  Just as there are a lot of people who don't have college educations that are brilliant  (hmmmmmmm... Can you think of someone you might think this of that is related to this very message board?).
    That's cute. So you're saying the US scheme provides better, more efficient healthcare than other industrialized nations? Is that borne out in our mortality rates? How does our per capita healthcare spending vis-a-vis our mortality rate compare with other western democracies? (hint: we're way at the top by a large margin for the former, and we're nowhere near the top for the latter). 
    I can make statistics say things too.  How heterogeneous are the populations of the other countries you speak of? What are the salaries of doctors in those other countries (or do you think we should cut their salaries?)?  You can't simply take those snippets. you have to know how to put them in proper perspective. What's our teen pregnancy ratio vs. other countries?  Should we abandon them or take care of them and the higher incident of both cost and poor outcomes?  These are just examples. Think a bit deeper than what the media feeds you. Where Trump is wrong is it's not FAKE news. But, it is misrepresented news.   What they are saying most of the time is true. It's just not well thought out or objectively presented.

    We have many more deep seeded problems that we've accepted and feel right to address than other countries simply don't address.   And that comes at a cost both financially and morbidity-wise.  So, yes our healthcare system is better than Canada (for example). People might go to Canada to get their meds b/c of that pricing anomaly.  But, they aren't going there to get surgeries.  
    So you say that you have to look deeper and then say US health care system is better than Canada's because some Canadians go to the US for some surgeries? You see how that metric is problematic right?

    Everybody in the world besides some Americans know that the US healthcare system is terrible and one big human right violation. I don't even know wtf to make of those who do think it's better than Canada's, unless they're rich enough to not care. And that they don't understand how they've been brainwashed I guess? It sure isn't true that Canadians go to America for surgeries because Canada's system is inferior, but I know some people actually buy that crap.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:
    It's starting to bug me t
    dignin said:
    jeffbr said:
    jeffbr said:
    It’s funny,   A Democrat brings thousands of high paying jobs to a city area and people still complain.   Think of all the people who own properties in that area that just became millionaires!   Yes, some were already, but many were not,  why does everything have to be that if it helps 1 rich person it’s bad.  Does anyone realize anything that happens, the rich are going to get richer.  So, ignore the noise and ask yourself - will a lot of less rich be helped by this?   Governor Cuomo seems to think so.  Unless, that is, he’s in on it too!

    You get that people making $125k/yr pay a lot in taxes.  Right?  And what at least in theory can he done  with those tax dollars?     And what about the hardworking janitors and cleaning people and other service industry that will crop up around this new HQ?  Those jobs don’t count because there will be people making more?   (Not to mention all the construction jobs that just got created for the next 5-10 years).

    She’s in over her head.  If she wants to just pay for healthcare, this is how you do it.  Give people jobs with access to healthcare, and collect more taxes to pay for those that don’t.  She reminds me of my nephews and nieces BEFORE they went to college.  Interesting how their views changed once they started working and had real jobs. 

    And not to put words in his mouth, but this is what Jason P is referring to.  She should chase Amazon away so a nice midwestern town can reap the benefits.   

    So, to recount Queens’ newly minted Rep thinks - Jobs bad.  Paying for healthcare easy.  Yes, we get what we deserve indeed.
    Why is healthcare attached to jobs? Why does their plan and their physical and mental health revolve around the particular terms of their employment? 
    It doesn't have to be and that's a fair (but wrong headed) debate.  Why would you want to give up BILLIONS of healthcare subsidies from corporations that are based on competition for employees? I'm sure you don't understand all that means, but taxation replacing competitive healthcare subsidy would be the absolutely dumbest thing we could do as a country (and thus why Obama went down that road - he's not too bright when it comes to healthcare and bending the cost curve).   There are many more people who successfully navigate employment to maintain their health coverage that is better than anything the government could ever reasonably provide (including ensuring proper, comprehensive access that countries with national care do not).

    Go ahead - chase Amazon away. Kill Employer subsidized coverage.  Do the math. It's not pretty.  It's funny to me how people do these polls showing "uneducated" white man votes for Trump. Uneducated means a lot of things. There are a lot of people holding college degrees, even PhD's that are not very smart as it pertains to anything outside a book.  Just as there are a lot of people who don't have college educations that are brilliant  (hmmmmmmm... Can you think of someone you might think this of that is related to this very message board?).
    That's cute. So you're saying the US scheme provides better, more efficient healthcare than other industrialized nations? Is that borne out in our mortality rates? How does our per capita healthcare spending vis-a-vis our mortality rate compare with other western democracies? (hint: we're way at the top by a large margin for the former, and we're nowhere near the top for the latter). 
    I can make statistics say things too.  How heterogeneous are the populations of the other countries you speak of? What are the salaries of doctors in those other countries (or do you think we should cut their salaries?)?  You can't simply take those snippets. you have to know how to put them in proper perspective. What's our teen pregnancy ratio vs. other countries?  Should we abandon them or take care of them and the higher incident of both cost and poor outcomes?  These are just examples. Think a bit deeper than what the media feeds you. Where Trump is wrong is it's not FAKE news. But, it is misrepresented news.   What they are saying most of the time is true. It's just not well thought out or objectively presented.

    We have many more deep seeded problems that we've accepted and feel right to address than other countries simply don't address.   And that comes at a cost both financially and morbidity-wise.  So, yes our healthcare system is better than Canada (for example). People might go to Canada to get their meds b/c of that pricing anomaly.  But, they aren't going there to get surgeries.  
    So you say that you have to look deeper and then say US health care system is better than Canada's because some Canadians go to the US for some surgeries? You see how that metric is problematic right?

    Everybody in the world besides some Americans know that the US healthcare system is terrible and one big human right violation. I don't even know wtf to make of those who do think it's better than Canada's, unless they're rich enough to not care. And that they don't understand how they've been brainwashed I guess? It sure isn't true that Canadians go to America for surgeries because Canada's system is inferior, but I know some people actually buy that crap.
    Why do they then?
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 11,318
    PJ_Soul said:
    It's starting to bug me t
    dignin said:
    jeffbr said:
    jeffbr said:
    It’s funny,   A Democrat brings thousands of high paying jobs to a city area and people still complain.   Think of all the people who own properties in that area that just became millionaires!   Yes, some were already, but many were not,  why does everything have to be that if it helps 1 rich person it’s bad.  Does anyone realize anything that happens, the rich are going to get richer.  So, ignore the noise and ask yourself - will a lot of less rich be helped by this?   Governor Cuomo seems to think so.  Unless, that is, he’s in on it too!

    You get that people making $125k/yr pay a lot in taxes.  Right?  And what at least in theory can he done  with those tax dollars?     And what about the hardworking janitors and cleaning people and other service industry that will crop up around this new HQ?  Those jobs don’t count because there will be people making more?   (Not to mention all the construction jobs that just got created for the next 5-10 years).

    She’s in over her head.  If she wants to just pay for healthcare, this is how you do it.  Give people jobs with access to healthcare, and collect more taxes to pay for those that don’t.  She reminds me of my nephews and nieces BEFORE they went to college.  Interesting how their views changed once they started working and had real jobs. 

    And not to put words in his mouth, but this is what Jason P is referring to.  She should chase Amazon away so a nice midwestern town can reap the benefits.   

    So, to recount Queens’ newly minted Rep thinks - Jobs bad.  Paying for healthcare easy.  Yes, we get what we deserve indeed.
    Why is healthcare attached to jobs? Why does their plan and their physical and mental health revolve around the particular terms of their employment? 
    It doesn't have to be and that's a fair (but wrong headed) debate.  Why would you want to give up BILLIONS of healthcare subsidies from corporations that are based on competition for employees? I'm sure you don't understand all that means, but taxation replacing competitive healthcare subsidy would be the absolutely dumbest thing we could do as a country (and thus why Obama went down that road - he's not too bright when it comes to healthcare and bending the cost curve).   There are many more people who successfully navigate employment to maintain their health coverage that is better than anything the government could ever reasonably provide (including ensuring proper, comprehensive access that countries with national care do not).

    Go ahead - chase Amazon away. Kill Employer subsidized coverage.  Do the math. It's not pretty.  It's funny to me how people do these polls showing "uneducated" white man votes for Trump. Uneducated means a lot of things. There are a lot of people holding college degrees, even PhD's that are not very smart as it pertains to anything outside a book.  Just as there are a lot of people who don't have college educations that are brilliant  (hmmmmmmm... Can you think of someone you might think this of that is related to this very message board?).
    That's cute. So you're saying the US scheme provides better, more efficient healthcare than other industrialized nations? Is that borne out in our mortality rates? How does our per capita healthcare spending vis-a-vis our mortality rate compare with other western democracies? (hint: we're way at the top by a large margin for the former, and we're nowhere near the top for the latter). 
    I can make statistics say things too.  How heterogeneous are the populations of the other countries you speak of? What are the salaries of doctors in those other countries (or do you think we should cut their salaries?)?  You can't simply take those snippets. you have to know how to put them in proper perspective. What's our teen pregnancy ratio vs. other countries?  Should we abandon them or take care of them and the higher incident of both cost and poor outcomes?  These are just examples. Think a bit deeper than what the media feeds you. Where Trump is wrong is it's not FAKE news. But, it is misrepresented news.   What they are saying most of the time is true. It's just not well thought out or objectively presented.

    We have many more deep seeded problems that we've accepted and feel right to address than other countries simply don't address.   And that comes at a cost both financially and morbidity-wise.  So, yes our healthcare system is better than Canada (for example). People might go to Canada to get their meds b/c of that pricing anomaly.  But, they aren't going there to get surgeries.  
    So you say that you have to look deeper and then say US health care system is better than Canada's because some Canadians go to the US for some surgeries? You see how that metric is problematic right?

    Everybody in the world besides some Americans know that the US healthcare system is terrible and one big human right violation. I don't even know wtf to make of those who do think it's better than Canada's, unless they're rich enough to not care. And that they don't understand how they've been brainwashed I guess? It sure isn't true that Canadians go to America for surgeries because Canada's system is inferior, but I know some people actually buy that crap.
    Human right violation? 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,276
    PJ_Soul said:
    It's starting to bug me t
    dignin said:
    jeffbr said:
    jeffbr said:
    It’s funny,   A Democrat brings thousands of high paying jobs to a city area and people still complain.   Think of all the people who own properties in that area that just became millionaires!   Yes, some were already, but many were not,  why does everything have to be that if it helps 1 rich person it’s bad.  Does anyone realize anything that happens, the rich are going to get richer.  So, ignore the noise and ask yourself - will a lot of less rich be helped by this?   Governor Cuomo seems to think so.  Unless, that is, he’s in on it too!

    You get that people making $125k/yr pay a lot in taxes.  Right?  And what at least in theory can he done  with those tax dollars?     And what about the hardworking janitors and cleaning people and other service industry that will crop up around this new HQ?  Those jobs don’t count because there will be people making more?   (Not to mention all the construction jobs that just got created for the next 5-10 years).

    She’s in over her head.  If she wants to just pay for healthcare, this is how you do it.  Give people jobs with access to healthcare, and collect more taxes to pay for those that don’t.  She reminds me of my nephews and nieces BEFORE they went to college.  Interesting how their views changed once they started working and had real jobs. 

    And not to put words in his mouth, but this is what Jason P is referring to.  She should chase Amazon away so a nice midwestern town can reap the benefits.   

    So, to recount Queens’ newly minted Rep thinks - Jobs bad.  Paying for healthcare easy.  Yes, we get what we deserve indeed.
    Why is healthcare attached to jobs? Why does their plan and their physical and mental health revolve around the particular terms of their employment? 
    It doesn't have to be and that's a fair (but wrong headed) debate.  Why would you want to give up BILLIONS of healthcare subsidies from corporations that are based on competition for employees? I'm sure you don't understand all that means, but taxation replacing competitive healthcare subsidy would be the absolutely dumbest thing we could do as a country (and thus why Obama went down that road - he's not too bright when it comes to healthcare and bending the cost curve).   There are many more people who successfully navigate employment to maintain their health coverage that is better than anything the government could ever reasonably provide (including ensuring proper, comprehensive access that countries with national care do not).

    Go ahead - chase Amazon away. Kill Employer subsidized coverage.  Do the math. It's not pretty.  It's funny to me how people do these polls showing "uneducated" white man votes for Trump. Uneducated means a lot of things. There are a lot of people holding college degrees, even PhD's that are not very smart as it pertains to anything outside a book.  Just as there are a lot of people who don't have college educations that are brilliant  (hmmmmmmm... Can you think of someone you might think this of that is related to this very message board?).
    That's cute. So you're saying the US scheme provides better, more efficient healthcare than other industrialized nations? Is that borne out in our mortality rates? How does our per capita healthcare spending vis-a-vis our mortality rate compare with other western democracies? (hint: we're way at the top by a large margin for the former, and we're nowhere near the top for the latter). 
    I can make statistics say things too.  How heterogeneous are the populations of the other countries you speak of? What are the salaries of doctors in those other countries (or do you think we should cut their salaries?)?  You can't simply take those snippets. you have to know how to put them in proper perspective. What's our teen pregnancy ratio vs. other countries?  Should we abandon them or take care of them and the higher incident of both cost and poor outcomes?  These are just examples. Think a bit deeper than what the media feeds you. Where Trump is wrong is it's not FAKE news. But, it is misrepresented news.   What they are saying most of the time is true. It's just not well thought out or objectively presented.

    We have many more deep seeded problems that we've accepted and feel right to address than other countries simply don't address.   And that comes at a cost both financially and morbidity-wise.  So, yes our healthcare system is better than Canada (for example). People might go to Canada to get their meds b/c of that pricing anomaly.  But, they aren't going there to get surgeries.  
    So you say that you have to look deeper and then say US health care system is better than Canada's because some Canadians go to the US for some surgeries? You see how that metric is problematic right?

    Everybody in the world besides some Americans know that the US healthcare system is terrible and one big human right violation. I don't even know wtf to make of those who do think it's better than Canada's, unless they're rich enough to not care. And that they don't understand how they've been brainwashed I guess? It sure isn't true that Canadians go to America for surgeries because Canada's system is inferior, but I know some people actually buy that crap.
    Why do they then?
    Hardly any do, but when they do, it's because America has 325 million people in it, and Canada only has 37 million people in it (different sized pool of doctors), plus America's twisted for profit system poaches doctors from elsewhere by paying them tons of money. So of course certain rare specialists can only be found in America sometimes, so they have to go there (if they can afford it - most can't). Also, Canada's system does sometimes create waiting lists for NON-urgent surgeries, say for a hip replacement or something, so RICH Canadians sometimes choose to either go to a private clinic here (Yes, Canada does have for profit medical care options too FYI, for the rich. Most Americans aren't even aware of that), or they skip down to the states and do it, depending on what they're looking for and I gather after comparison shopping or whatever, and they happen to find something that suits what they're looking for better across the border.

    Just to put it in perspective, here is a nice pie chart for you. I suggest that you stop getting your information from Ted Cruz, lol.


    (source: incidental economist)
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 11,318
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,276
    edited November 2018
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

    I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_Soul said:
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Except access to care is central to an effective healthcare system.    So, you can go on your self congratulatory rant, but your primary point is wrong.  The numbers of the US doctors should be irrelevant if the Canadian system was able to provide for it whole population's healthcare needs.  
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,276
    What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

    I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 
    So you're saying that the non-whites in America are so much more sickly than the white people that they are driving up the healthcare costs? Wow, that sure fucking opens a big can of worms, doesn't it? Jesus Christ.
    In any case, I don't think you missed my main point.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 11,318
    PJ_Soul said:
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Piss away.

    Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

    i never said the system was better. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,276
    edited November 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Piss away.

    Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

    i never said the system was better. 
    You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 11,318
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Piss away.

    Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

    i never said the system was better. 
    You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.
    I’m assuming that the best doctors are human beings. 

    Tell me - do you like to make a good salary?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    It's starting to bug me t


    Everybody in the world besides some Americans know that the US healthcare system is terrible and one big human right violation. I don't even know wtf to make of those who do think it's better than Canada's, unless they're rich enough to not care. And that they don't understand how they've been brainwashed I guess? It sure isn't true that Canadians go to America for surgeries because Canada's system is inferior, but I know some people actually buy that crap.
    Why do they then?
    Hardly any do, but when they do, it's because America has 325 million people in it, and Canada only has 37 million people in it (different sized pool of doctors), plus America's twisted for profit system poaches doctors from elsewhere by paying them tons of money. So of course certain rare specialists can only be found in America sometimes, so they have to go there (if they can afford it - most can't). Also, Canada's system does sometimes create waiting lists for NON-urgent surgeries, say for a hip replacement or something, so RICH Canadians sometimes choose to either go to a private clinic here (Yes, Canada does have for profit medical care options too FYI, for the rich. Most Americans aren't even aware of that), or they skip down to the states and do it, depending on what they're looking for and I gather after comparison shopping or whatever, and they happen to find something that suits what they're looking for better across the border.

    Just to put it in perspective, here is a nice pie chart for you. I suggest that you stop getting your information from Ted Cruz, lol.


    (source: incidental economist)
    Does the incidental economist (what a funny title) have a pie chart for neurosurgery or cardiac valve replacement only and not of the entire system? I'd hope primary care could be taken care of locally. But, what about focusing on the complicated super specialties like these and others that are the true indication of the value of the healthcare system.

    I'll be honest. I can be asking a question that's counter to my argument.  I don't know for sure what my question will produce (though I have my suspicions).  But, if I'm to be proven wrong, i want it to be via a proper analysis and not some stupid 2nd grad pie chart that an imbecile could (and probably did) put together. 

    Again, go deep.  You're embarrassing yourself with these esoteric, surface type "proofs."
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,276
    edited November 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    So we are in agreement than that the US has the best doctors! 

    Nice chart. Free is better then best for candians. Can’t say I’d blame them.
    Nope, that isn't what I said. Is that really how you interpreted it, or are you just being bratty? I said that certain rare specialists are poached so very specialized treatments or surgeries, and doctors doing them, are often there instead of elsewhere. I did NOT say that the US has better doctors in general, and that is not true at all. Canadians actually get BETTER outcomes in their own healthcare system than Americans do. The US actually has the highest rate of deaths amenable to healthcare in the entire G7, and it spend more per capita for that as well. When you look at actual facts and statistics, you discover that the US has an inferior healthcare system compared to not only Canada, but also compared to the UK, Japan, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, France... PLUS Americans are getting financially raped in the process. And no, I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. I'm saying all this because I'm simply horrified by the system that Americans are subjected to because they deserve so much better. So I HATE that these complete lies about the superiority of this disgusting for profit system are being drilled into the minds of Americans. It really is brainwashing, and people are literally dying for it. And losing their homes and going bankrupt. Just because they get sick. And they spending SO much hard earned money to pay for shitty insurance plans made by companies who profit from withholding care as much as possible. Not to mention their lobbyists. It's just fucking sick, and everyone responsible for propagating such a system should be thrown in jail IMO. I hope someday Americans riot in the streets until their human rights are respected via their healthcare system.
    Piss away.

    Its pretty obviously that if Us pays more they will attract the best doctors. That’s just simple economics/math.

    i never said the system was better. 
    You're assuming that the greediest doctors are all the best doctors. That isn't the case, lol.
    I’m assuming that the best doctors are human beings. 

    Tell me - do you like to make a good salary?
    Many great doctors are completely repulsed by the American system and wouldn't work there for any amount of money. I think you forgot for a second that money isn't everything for all people.
    I personally make a much lower salary than I could because I've chosen the public sector. I left the corporate sector and better pay because I felt rather disgusted by how everyone was motivated by the bottom line alone, and by the greed and competitiveness. Sorry, but your belief that everyone thinks money is the most important thing is completely false. That's sad you think that.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 18,498
    edited November 2018
    What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

    I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 
    Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious. And what’s the effect on taxes on those things that are bad? To pay for a healthier overall society? And anyone who lives in America should be embarrassed by our infant mortality rate and the number of women who die during childbirth. Absolutely fucking embarrassing for “the greatest country on earth,” with the best president ever.
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,276
    What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

    I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 
    Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.
    You really don't have to ask, do you?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

    I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 
    Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.
    Ha, ha, ha. I knew it was dangerous ground to go to b/c immediately I'm racist.   Are you trying to compare to US Obesity rates vs. anywhere in the world? We are the fattest.  But, that's not necessarily tied to a particular group, so could happen for any reason anywhere. 
    The fact is you are picking Social related issues that is actually more racist than me picking a very clear race-disease correlation that's based on fact, and as I said just one example, that I felt was easy for everyone to understand..  

    But, don't worry. Most Liberals are racist. They just think they hide it by trying to point it out when it doesn't exist in others.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,276

    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 10,639
    edited November 2018
    Anyone who thinks Government can run anything better than a competitive free market is not being honest about the government around them.
    https://nordic.businessinsider.com/the-16-countries-with-the-worlds-best-healthcare-systems-2017-1/


    and

    " the United States finished a dismal 35th, according to a much anticipated ranking of healthcare quality in 195 countries, released Friday.

    /.../

    Of the 20 countries heading up the list, all but Australia and Japan (No. 11) are in western Europe, where virtually every nation boasts some form of universal health coverage."



    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • PJ_Soul said:
    What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

    I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 
    Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.
    You really don't have to ask, do you?
    Are you working on your 5th grade research project I asked you about?
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,276
    edited November 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

    I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 
    Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.
    You really don't have to ask, do you?
    Are you working on your 5th grade research project I asked you about?
    Lol, no, because you are now just sounding delusional, so I'm not about to bother. I'm serious. I'm not just saying that because I don't feel like it or don't think I can. You've crossed the line from rational discussion into some crazy zone that I'm not willing to engage in. I don't know who pulled the wool over your eyes man, but they did a REALLY good job.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 18,498
    edited November 2018
    What's the rate of Sickle Cell Anemia in Canada vs. the US?    What is the cause of this? The poor healthcare system or the demographics?   If you had this disease and it's treated does it cost more or less money than not having the disease as prevalent in your overall population?  You see?  The Humans Rights Violation is much more inclusive than our snow white sisters to the North.

    I am not picking on one disease or race.  This is just one example of MANY.  What makes the US great is it's inclusiveness. That does have a downstream effect on the healthcare system (And other things) that does not reflect negatively on the system at all (and quite the contrary) It's fairly easy to treat a mostly homogeneous population (Canada is 86% European/White).   I am just pointing out that you must go deeper than spending per person, death rates and such to properly analyze the difference in health care systems and their relative burdens. 
    Like obesity rates? Gun shot treatment? Alcohol and drug usage, consumption and abuse rates? Why the selection of sickle cell anemia as your example to illustrate a non-homogeneous population? Just curious.
    Ha, ha, ha. I knew it was dangerous ground to go to b/c immediately I'm racist.   Are you trying to compare to US Obesity rates vs. anywhere in the world? We are the fattest.  But, that's not necessarily tied to a particular group, so could happen for any reason anywhere. 
    The fact is you are picking Social related issues that is actually more racist than me picking a very clear race-disease correlation that's based on fact, and as I said just one example, that I felt was easy for everyone to understand..  

    But, don't worry. Most Liberals are racist. They just think they hide it by trying to point it out when it doesn't exist in others.
    So the effects of health on the health care system should only be determined by luck of the draw, or should I say, gene? And you didn’t answer the question despite claiming you could have picked any number of other diseases prevelant in other races. Obesity rates in US to Canada. Or US compared to any of the top16 as our Swedish friend posted. Are we comparing US health care to Afghanistan now? Bait and switch and I await your response.

    You must have a guilty conscience as you called yourself racist, I didn’t. I asked a question.
     
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • Anyone who thinks Government can run anything better than a competitive free market is not being honest about the government around them.
    https://nordic.businessinsider.com/the-16-countries-with-the-worlds-best-healthcare-systems-2017-1/


    Ha, ha. Is it risk adjusted?  Does it adjust for demographics? 

    Nordic. Too funny.

    16. Canada — Canada's 1984 Health Act entrenches in law the country's system of free at the point of access healthcare, known as Medicare. Canada's system is not perfect however, and in recent years the number of Canadians going south for private care in the USA has grown.

    Thank you for proving my point.  Access to care limited.  I stopped reading there.  Without that as a criteria, you're embarrassing yourselves.   I think it's funny when Canadians criticize the US.   Those guys are great.  They're like that little kid down the block that you let play 2nd, special deep center fielder and he thinks he's in the game. 

    Here's what's funny about all the included pictures. None of them include any diversity. It appears New Zealand comes the closest.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
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