They can go to a bank and Wall Street for their “loan” if they’re too cheap to pay for it themselves. It’s fucking obscene and immoral.
Well no actually, they’ll just go to another location. It’s competitive to attract jobs.
This. A public corporation has a fiduciary responsibility/obligation to maximize shareholder return. So if they can benefit from some cost savings it makes sense to do so. If they can't find those savings in one place they'll go find them somewhere else. And as mrussell has pointed out, those incentives that municipalities create can lead to additional ancillary revenue streams, allowing them to recoup those incentives over time if done right.
Yes, and this one was so easy that even the incompetent NY politicians couldn't fuck it up and not do it right...yet they did. The only way they could fuck it up is by killing the deal, and that's what they did.
I read something interesting from a professor from the Michigan school of business. His point is that these two entities were never going to be able to do business together because of the cultural differences. He said that in NY, it's completely normal to go to the media and insult each other as a way to gain leverage, and then strike a deal like the insults never happened. But outside of NY, you don't do that. So while some of these politicians may have thought that this was just part of the ongoing negotiation (another NY thing, you keep negotiating even after a deal), that wasn't in Amazon's culture so they walked.
Jeff Bezos’ net worth is $141.35 BILLION dollars and he wanted $3BB in tax incentives. Fuck him. He could self fund his $3BB tax wish ten times and not feel an ounce of pain in his life style or amount of wealth. Fuck him and his greed.
It's a public company, there's a board of directors and shareholders. The state would earn that back many times over without a sniff. They could have rebuilt the subway infrastructure which is in dire need in that area. The state and city are both refusing to put up the money. While you're right, Bezos could have paid the tax credit, now there will be nothing. I'm sorry, there's no scenario where it's net net positive for 25k planned job, high paying jobs, leaving. No matter how many ways someone spins what amazon could do. Now they'll do nothing.
And the tax payers won’t be subsiding someone with a net worth of $130+ billion and who’s corporation pays an effective tax rate of 3%. Sorry but it’s obscene.
Sure they took a stand and lost the jobs. What a tremendous victory of principle for the white people who didn't want them there. And the 75% of minorities that did, lose out.
These guys don’t need tax breaks or tax credits to create jobs. Just build the HQ with your own wealth. Immoral.
So you think AOC and the others would have been perfectly fine with Amazon coming in if there weren't any tax breaks?
Probably not completely fine, because the issues around housing costs would still exist, but likely a bit more satisfied that the rich weren’t just getting richer.
So if I said to you... hey I know I promised you a thousand dollars, but if you don't make me pay now, I'll pay it all back in the next two years. Plus two of my friends (ancillary economic activity) will each give you 500 bucks a year, and after the third year, you'll get 1000 bucks a year for the next 25. You'd say... fuck that, I know you have a thousand bucks in your wallet. Pay me that now or leave.
Please explain to me why any company or individual worth amazon or Bezos worth needs tax payer subsidies? Why do they need public funds to create jobs when their own net worth and value is way more than sufficient? They’re no longer a “start up.”
Just curious if you'd take the deal.
I’m a little slow at math but in your example, are you saying that after two years, Amazon would have paid back the $1.5 BB and every year after it would have generated $1.5BB a year for the next 25? The mental block I have is that amazon and Bezos, with their vast wealth, require subsidies to create jobs. I don’t get it and all they really seem to be doing as such is to maximize share holder value. It sounds like they don’t believe in themselves if they’re asking for handouts, particularly when they’re paying a 3% effective corporate tax rate.
Jeff Bezos’ net worth is $141.35 BILLION dollars and he wanted $3BB in tax incentives. Fuck him. He could self fund his $3BB tax wish ten times and not feel an ounce of pain in his life style or amount of wealth. Fuck him and his greed.
It's a public company, there's a board of directors and shareholders. The state would earn that back many times over without a sniff. They could have rebuilt the subway infrastructure which is in dire need in that area. The state and city are both refusing to put up the money. While you're right, Bezos could have paid the tax credit, now there will be nothing. I'm sorry, there's no scenario where it's net net positive for 25k planned job, high paying jobs, leaving. No matter how many ways someone spins what amazon could do. Now they'll do nothing.
And the tax payers won’t be subsiding someone with a net worth of $130+ billion and who’s corporation pays an effective tax rate of 3%. Sorry but it’s obscene.
Sure they took a stand and lost the jobs. What a tremendous victory of principle for the white people who didn't want them there. And the 75% of minorities that did, lose out.
These guys don’t need tax breaks or tax credits to create jobs. Just build the HQ with your own wealth. Immoral.
So you think AOC and the others would have been perfectly fine with Amazon coming in if there weren't any tax breaks?
Probably not completely fine, because the issues around housing costs would still exist, but likely a bit more satisfied that the rich weren’t just getting richer.
So if I said to you... hey I know I promised you a thousand dollars, but if you don't make me pay now, I'll pay it all back in the next two years. Plus two of my friends (ancillary economic activity) will each give you 500 bucks a year, and after the third year, you'll get 1000 bucks a year for the next 25. You'd say... fuck that, I know you have a thousand bucks in your wallet. Pay me that now or leave.
Please explain to me why any company or individual worth amazon or Bezos worth needs tax payer subsidies? Why do they need public funds to create jobs when their own net worth and value is way more than sufficient? They’re no longer a “start up.”
Just curious if you'd take the deal.
I’m a little slow at math but in your example, are you saying that after two years, Amazon would have paid back the $1.5 BB and every year after it would have generated $1.5BB a year for the next 25? The mental block I have is that amazon and Bezos, with their vast wealth, require subsidies to create jobs. I don’t get it and all they really seem to be doing as such is to maximize share holder value. It sounds like they don’t believe in themselves if they’re asking for handouts, particularly when they’re paying a 3% effective corporate tax rate.
Again, I’m a dolt when it comes to math.
In fairness, I don't know NY's tax structure. But I do know VA's and Amazon got a 500 million tax break there. I'm fairly certain we have lower taxes than NY, so I'm assuming some proportionality here. So at our 7% state income tax, it will take two years for the EMPLOYEES to pay back the benefit, assuming the 150k average salary. That doesn't even take into account the taxes that Amazon the company will pay to the state in income, real estate, etc. Nor does it take into account the ancillary activity. So for VA, it was the biggest no brainer of a lifetime. I can't imagine the NY deal having an return hurdle much further in the future than VA. Remember, it's not just the taxes by the corporation, it's the income tax paid by the employees that has to be factored as well.
And I think your 3% number is the federal one, not the state income tax. Usually there is far less escaping that number. And yes, the whole purpose of the negotiation is to maximize shareholder value as you state, and JeffBr stated. They absolutely have that responsibility as a public company. If you're private, like Chick-fil-a, you can even choose not to be open one day a week, and the revenue loss from that. But not a public one..
Jeff Bezos’ net worth is $141.35 BILLION dollars and he wanted $3BB in tax incentives. Fuck him. He could self fund his $3BB tax wish ten times and not feel an ounce of pain in his life style or amount of wealth. Fuck him and his greed.
It's a public company, there's a board of directors and shareholders. The state would earn that back many times over without a sniff. They could have rebuilt the subway infrastructure which is in dire need in that area. The state and city are both refusing to put up the money. While you're right, Bezos could have paid the tax credit, now there will be nothing. I'm sorry, there's no scenario where it's net net positive for 25k planned job, high paying jobs, leaving. No matter how many ways someone spins what amazon could do. Now they'll do nothing.
And the tax payers won’t be subsiding someone with a net worth of $130+ billion and who’s corporation pays an effective tax rate of 3%. Sorry but it’s obscene.
Sure they took a stand and lost the jobs. What a tremendous victory of principle for the white people who didn't want them there. And the 75% of minorities that did, lose out.
These guys don’t need tax breaks or tax credits to create jobs. Just build the HQ with your own wealth. Immoral.
So you think AOC and the others would have been perfectly fine with Amazon coming in if there weren't any tax breaks?
Probably not completely fine, because the issues around housing costs would still exist, but likely a bit more satisfied that the rich weren’t just getting richer.
This was never going to solve the disparate wealth issues in this country or world. I get what you're implying, but the rich are just going to get rich somewhere else now. Maybe she, and the rest of NY bureaucrats, could have negotiated a little more if that was the concern. This isn't a win for NY in the long term. What AOC seems to lack is big picture thinking.
Honestly, Amazon has lost nothing in this process. I imagine they were baffled by the response they received, and maybe that shows their arrogance needs some adjusting too, but unless the other locations were willing to stand up to similar requests that NY didn't like this was all just for show and has made no long term impact on what will happen with future large corporation deals.
Oh, and there’s currently 7.1 million job openings in the US. Where are these 25k employees coming from to move to a metro area with one of the highest costs of living?
They can go to a bank and Wall Street for their “loan” if they’re too cheap to pay for it themselves. It’s fucking obscene and immoral.
Well no actually, they’ll just go to another location. It’s competitive to attract jobs.
Or it is legal bribery. Legalized blackmail. We get it, but don’t have to like it.
No different then giving incentives on taxes for people to move into formerly desolate parts of a city. No different really than a store having a sale to get you to shop there.
Blackmail is a really weird choice of words there. I can see how you might say bribery.
Average rent in LIC is $3400. That $125k salary, while sounding nice, doesn’t go far in NYC metro area. Drive up demand with an influx of new folks looking for housing and the rents go north of 4K. Folks living there now get priced out. Too bad for them I guess?
Oh, and there’s currently 7.1 million job openings in the US. Where are these 25k employees coming from to move to a metro area with one of the highest costs of living?
That’s why amazon wanted to be in NY and were going to pay to pay an average of $150,000 salary.
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They can go to a bank and Wall Street for their “loan” if they’re too cheap to pay for it themselves. It’s fucking obscene and immoral.
Well no actually, they’ll just go to another location. It’s competitive to attract jobs.
Or it is legal bribery. Legalized blackmail. We get it, but don’t have to like it.
No different then giving incentives on taxes for people to move into formerly desolate parts of a city. No different really than a store having a sale to get you to shop there.
Blackmail is a really weird choice of words there. I can see how you might say bribery.
I deleted blackmail and then put it back in. There is not much difference between “give me money or I post this picture” and “you need jobs so pay up or else”.
You can’t feel bad for Bezos being blackmailed by the Enquirer when his company just played 20 cities that wanted jobs against each other to get the most money from them.
Oh, and there’s currently 7.1 million job openings in the US. Where are these 25k employees coming from to move to a metro area with one of the highest costs of living?
That’s why amazon wanted to be in NY and were going to pay to pay an average of $150,000 salary.
There’s 7.1 million or 25K unemployed in NYC? Not getting your answer. Are there that many $125K+ software engineers out of work? Fire up the USB1 visa machine. Do you like Indian food?
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They don't but that is how business is done. That is also why other companies move HQ's to Ireland where they get a tax cut for doing business there.
So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
Oh, and there’s currently 7.1 million job openings in the US. Where are these 25k employees coming from to move to a metro area with one of the highest costs of living?
That’s why amazon wanted to be in NY and were going to pay to pay an average of $150,000 salary.
There’s 7.1 million or 25K unemployed in NYC? Not getting your answer. Are there that many $125K+ software engineers out of work? Fire up the USB1 visa machine. Do you like Indian food?
That's an average though the 25k workers with that salary? I'm sure there are others making a bunch more than that.
Oh, and there’s currently 7.1 million job openings in the US. Where are these 25k employees coming from to move to a metro area with one of the highest costs of living?
That’s why amazon wanted to be in NY and were going to pay to pay an average of $150,000 salary.
There’s 7.1 million or 25K unemployed in NYC? Not getting your answer. Are there that many $125K+ software engineers out of work? Fire up the USB1 visa machine. Do you like Indian food?
I mean they were picking places people in those careers want to live. Part of the incentive. Better than West Virginia.
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They don't but that is how business is done. That is also why other companies move HQ's to Ireland where they get a tax cut for doing business there.
So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They don't but that is how business is done. That is also why other companies move HQ's to Ireland where they get a tax cut for doing business there.
So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
“They don’t.” Full stop.
Sounds Team Trump Treasonian, like declaring an emergency to fully fund the stupid wall. “I don’t really need to do this but........” people are fed up with the greed and disparity of wealth.
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They don't but that is how business is done. That is also why other companies move HQ's to Ireland where they get a tax cut for doing business there.
So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
Well how else do you eliminate poverty other than jobs? I think your assumption is that it's displacement rather than upward mobility. I don't think there's one answer to that.
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They don't but that is how business is done. That is also why other companies move HQ's to Ireland where they get a tax cut for doing business there.
So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
Well how else do you eliminate poverty other than jobs? I think your assumption is that it's displacement rather than upward mobility. I don't think there's one answer to that.
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They don't but that is how business is done. That is also why other companies move HQ's to Ireland where they get a tax cut for doing business there.
So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
“They don’t.” Full stop.
Sounds Team Trump Treasonian, like declaring an emergency to fully fund the stupid wall. “I don’t really need to do this but........” people are fed up with the greed and disparity of wealth.
You know that 14 page New Green Deal that Ocasio would like to do? You need people making money and pay taxes to fund it.
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They don't but that is how business is done. That is also why other companies move HQ's to Ireland where they get a tax cut for doing business there.
So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
Well how else do you eliminate poverty other than jobs? I think your assumption is that it's displacement rather than upward mobility. I don't think there's one answer to that.
UBI Universal Basic Income That is how you eliminate poverty
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They don't but that is how business is done. That is also why other companies move HQ's to Ireland where they get a tax cut for doing business there.
So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
“They don’t.” Full stop.
Sounds Team Trump Treasonian, like declaring an emergency to fully fund the stupid wall. “I don’t really need to do this but........” people are fed up with the greed and disparity of wealth.
You know that 14 page New Green Deal that Ocasio would like to do? You need people making money and pay taxes to fund it.
2 way street.
People already work and pay taxes. It’s about priorities and continuing down the CO2 path we’re on, makes Bezos and Amazon in LIC underwater by 2050. Priorities.
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They don't but that is how business is done. That is also why other companies move HQ's to Ireland where they get a tax cut for doing business there.
So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
Well how else do you eliminate poverty other than jobs? I think your assumption is that it's displacement rather than upward mobility. I don't think there's one answer to that.
UBI Universal Basic Income That is how you eliminate poverty
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They don't but that is how business is done. That is also why other companies move HQ's to Ireland where they get a tax cut for doing business there.
So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
Well how else do you eliminate poverty other than jobs? I think your assumption is that it's displacement rather than upward mobility. I don't think there's one answer to that.
UBI Universal Basic Income That is how you eliminate poverty
Anyone want to explain why a company and individual that are worth billions and pay an effective 3% federal corporate tax rate need $1.5 billion in taxpayer subsidies to create jobs and open a headquarters?
They don't but that is how business is done. That is also why other companies move HQ's to Ireland where they get a tax cut for doing business there.
So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
Well how else do you eliminate poverty other than jobs? I think your assumption is that it's displacement rather than upward mobility. I don't think there's one answer to that.
Education and equal opportunity.
Sure agreed. And those things are needed to land a job... 25k of which just left town.
Comments
I read something interesting from a professor from the Michigan school of business. His point is that these two entities were never going to be able to do business together because of the cultural differences. He said that in NY, it's completely normal to go to the media and insult each other as a way to gain leverage, and then strike a deal like the insults never happened. But outside of NY, you don't do that. So while some of these politicians may have thought that this was just part of the ongoing negotiation (another NY thing, you keep negotiating even after a deal), that wasn't in Amazon's culture so they walked.
Again, I’m a dolt when it comes to math.
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And I think your 3% number is the federal one, not the state income tax. Usually there is far less escaping that number. And yes, the whole purpose of the negotiation is to maximize shareholder value as you state, and JeffBr stated. They absolutely have that responsibility as a public company. If you're private, like Chick-fil-a, you can even choose not to be open one day a week, and the revenue loss from that. But not a public one..
Honestly, Amazon has lost nothing in this process. I imagine they were baffled by the response they received, and maybe that shows their arrogance needs some adjusting too, but unless the other locations were willing to stand up to similar requests that NY didn't like this was all just for show and has made no long term impact on what will happen with future large corporation deals.
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Blackmail is a really weird choice of words there. I can see how you might say bribery.
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You can’t feel bad for Bezos being blackmailed by the Enquirer when his company just played 20 cities that wanted jobs against each other to get the most money from them.
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So I did do the math with the taxes and after 5 years of construction tax revenue would be around $44,100,000. That's an average of 1000 construction workers a year making 100k.
When the place is built and there is 25,000 people making on average 150K a year, that would be $1,653,750,000 in taxes in 5 years.
That is a ton of money that comes in every single year to the city.
What this does do is kill any lower income areas in a 25 mile radius of LIC which is already too high in my opinion. If anyone has lived in Seattle or Austin and saw those cities explode this would be the same thing only worse.
Love Indian food.
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2 way street.
Universal Basic Income
That is how you eliminate poverty
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This has some some very interesting points.
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