This thread has gone far enough. "Be kind." -Ilona Anne Coggswater

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  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 4,981
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,238
    he's a fucking idiot. 
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,993
    he's a fucking idiot. 
    Great actor, but yeah, that is an idiotic statement to say the least.... He's probably scared out of his mind because he knows how many times he's crossed the line over the years...... Weird that he and EV are supposedly close friends btw.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,238
    PJ_Soul said:
    he's a fucking idiot. 
    Great actor, but yeah, that is an idiotic statement to say the least.... He's probably scared out of his mind because he knows how many times he's crossed the line over the years...... Weird that he and EV are supposedly close friends btw.
    and just to be sure, I read the entire quote. it does not make him look any better than just that one snippet. 
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 15,441
    “I’d like to think that none of it was influenced by what they call the 
    movement of #MeToo,” Penn said. “I think it’s influenced by the things 
    that are developing in terms of the empowerment of women who’ve been 
    acknowledging each other and being acknowledged by men."
    Men acknowledging women has empowered them? 
    Guess I could see that happening a small % of the time. 
    He is ignoring the boorish behavior that many of his fellow Hollywood elite engaged in...and of course he had his own experiences with reported (alleged) abuse and the press backlash.  [Happened at a time when it didn't really matter much toward his career]

    He has done some really good things in the world, think he is way off base here in his take.


    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,238
    that's another idiotic statement to make, and further makes women out to be the lesser gender. seriously, women were empowered only because we gave them that power? jesus. 
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,320
    that's another idiotic statement to make, and further makes women out to be the lesser gender. seriously, women were empowered only because we gave them that power? jesus. 
    That's now how I read it.  I think he means that we women have empowered themselves. 

    But anyway, you know, that's the funny thing about celebrities- especially movie stars- all too often people look to them to be The Guiding Light.  They are just higher profile, that's all.  At least half of them are full of shit.  So let's maybe focus on the issue and not the stars.

    Here again is my take:

    -Women have been oppressed far too long.
    -Many positive strides have been made by women, for women, in them becoming more liberated over the last 100 plus years.
    -Men and women both should not tolerate abuse of women

    But also this:

    - There is a difference between flirtation and sexual harassment.I've been flirted with a number of time (oh, don't worry, I'm not tooting my own horn- it ain't happened that often, haha).  So does that mean that all the times women have flirted with me I should get up tight and call it sexual abuse?  No.  Should true sexual abuse and harassment be called out and dealt with appropriately?  HELL YES!  But know the difference.

    And this:

    -Movements can be great for instigating and promoting social change.  But movements can also be corrupted, co-oped, infiltrated, abused, exaggerated or any of the above.  It happens.  I've seen it happen. To not at least consider that #MeToo has, at the very least, in some case, been corrupted, is blind allegiance to a cause.  It's "True Believer" mentality.  I strong advise against that kind of thinking, especially for anyone who truly want to see the advancement of social justice.  Social justice is hard work.  It's being educated.  It's looking at the bigger picture. 

    THIS IS TO NO ONE IN PARTICULAR HERE BUT, I'm actually mildly disturbed by some of the negative and what seem to me to be knee-jerk responses here.  Not meaning to offend.  This is an important issue.  It deserves to be done right.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,993
    edited September 2018
    Brian, nobody who is being reasonable or rational says that flirting is sexual abuse, so I think that point is relatively moot to be honest. You can't look at the #metoo movement by only considering what hysterical idiots have to say about it and let that taint your view of the movement. What IS a real problem is that many men (and a small number of women) do not understand when they ARE crossing the line between flirting and something harmful and supposedly they don't even know it (although in almost ALL cases, I think they DO know it; they just don't care and/or go into denial mode when confronted). THAT is the main problem and where our focus should be trained. Not some hysterical fool calling flirting sexual abuse, which, frankly, is very rarely happening - I feel like you maybe think it's really rampant, but I don't think it is. The sexual harassment and abuse is far more widespread and rampant. Silly, groundless accusations are very few and far between. I'm not saying they should be ignored when they happen, but I also don't think they need to be looked at as a really massive problem in this movement, because that actually serves to counteract the positives more than doing anything helpful. IMO.

    That said, I've already made it clear that mass hysteria has been a factor in this whole thing. I'm more talking about your specific comment about flirting being seen as sexual abuse. Um, no, I don't think that is as much of a concern as you seem to, and I don't think it's an accusation being thrown around a lot. Yes, Aziz Ansari got fucked over by that silly woman he went on a date with and by the media's reaction to it... I can't really think of any other examples of this kind of thing though. I know a few men who were inappropriate have tried to CLAIM that it was harmless flirting, but I've not seen much to suggest that was truly the case... How many do you think it's happened to Brian? Like 3 people in Hollywood? 4? ... I can't see that as a big huge issue, in terms of the big picture.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,320
    PJ_Soul said:
    Brian, nobody who is being reasonable or rational says that flirting is sexual abuse, so I think that point is moot. You can't look at the #metoo movement by only considering what hysterical idiots have to say about it, that's the thing. I feel you're concentrating too much on those who everyone should already be ignoring.
    Should, being the operative word, Allison.  And when the outliers are not ignored, they corrupt a good thing.

    Like I say, I've seen this happen before, especially in the environmental movement.  Look what happened to Earth First!
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,993
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Brian, nobody who is being reasonable or rational says that flirting is sexual abuse, so I think that point is moot. You can't look at the #metoo movement by only considering what hysterical idiots have to say about it, that's the thing. I feel you're concentrating too much on those who everyone should already be ignoring.
    Should, being the operative word, Allison.  And when the outliers are not ignored, they corrupt a good thing.

    Like I say, I've seen this happen before, especially in the environmental movement.  Look what happened to Earth First!
    I added hugely to my post Brian, lol.
    I agree with you here - the media and paying WAY too much attention to a few outliers, and it's causing people to turn on the #metoo movement in general... I guess I'm trying to just distinguish between the actual movement as it really exists, and a false perception of it. Yes, too much is being made of just a few incidents... when in reality, they really shouldn't have much of an impact at all... I do blame the media, but also those who allow the media's unbalanced coverage to affect their perceptions.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,485
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,320
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Brian, nobody who is being reasonable or rational says that flirting is sexual abuse, so I think that point is moot. You can't look at the #metoo movement by only considering what hysterical idiots have to say about it, that's the thing. I feel you're concentrating too much on those who everyone should already be ignoring.
    Should, being the operative word, Allison.  And when the outliers are not ignored, they corrupt a good thing.

    Like I say, I've seen this happen before, especially in the environmental movement.  Look what happened to Earth First!
    I added hugely to my post Brian, lol.
    I agree with you here - the media and paying WAY too much attention to a few outliers, and it's causing people to turn on the #metoo movement in general... I guess I'm trying to just distinguish between the actual movement as it really exists, and a false perception of it. Yes, too much is being made of just a few incidents... when in reality, they really shouldn't have much of an impact at all... I do blame the media, but also those who allow the media's unbalanced coverage to affect their perceptions.
    Yeah, what a shame media, social media, news outlets etc, fall so far short of responsible reportage. I think somebody wrote a god book about that- was it Dan Rather maybe?  I'm pretty sure it wasn't Bill O'O'Reilly haha!
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,320
    unsung said:
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
    Yes, excellent point.  The result, in at least some careers is a ruined careers and sabotaged movement.   I think Al Frankin case is an excellent example-  a ruined career, loss of a better-than-most senator.  And ultimately, I think this sort of thing is bad for the women's movement. 
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,993
    edited September 2018
    unsung said:
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
    Nobody is getting convicted without proof, that is a lie.
    I also don't at all see how it happening 10 years ago changes anything - I don't feel bad for someone who has their career ruined because they are accused by a bunch of people of sexual abuse or misconduct (depending on the details of the misconduct), be it last week or 10 years ago.
    I do think the specific circumstances matter though, and have said many times that any hysteria related to accusations is beyond unhelpful. I also think that there needs to be some room for redemption in some cases (not others). That does NOT mean the #metoo movement isn't valuable. I worry about the fact that people seem to want to either embrace the movement without any criticism, or focus on what you're saying and therefore reject it outright. It's just more hysteria.

    We cannot, btw, rely solely on criminal convictions here. Accusers DO deserve a chance - a lot of mostly men seem to have decided to reject accusations altogether unless there are criminal charges, and that is not cool IMO. I 100% acknowledge that some women make false accusations..... But most do not. Yes, we need to be rational. The anti-#metoo'ers/accusation deniers are not being any more rational than those who don't know the difference between harmless flirting and sexual harassment or assault.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,320
    PJ_Soul said:
    unsung said:
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
    Nobody is getting convicted without proof, that is a lie.
    I also don't at all see how it happening 10 years ago changes anything - I don't feel bad for someone who has their career ruined because they are accused by a bunch of people of sexual abuse or misconduct (depending on the details of the misconduct), be it last week or 10 years ago.
    I do think the specific circumstances matter though, and have said many times that any hysteria related to accusations is beyond unhelpful. I also think that there needs to be some room for redemption in some cases (not others). That does NOT mean the #metoo movement isn't valuable. I worry about the fact that people seem to want to either embrace the movement without any criticism, or focus on what you're saying and therefore reject it outright. It's just more hysteria.

    We cannot, btw, rely solely on criminal convictions here. Accusers DO deserve a chance - a lot of mostly men seem to have decided to reject accusations altogether unless there are criminal charges, and that is not cool IMO. I 100% acknowledge that some women make false accusations..... But most do not. Yes, we need to be rational. The anti-#metoo'ers/accusation deniers are not being any more rational than those who don't know the difference between harmless flirting and sexual harassment or assault.
    I really hope your not putting me in that category.  That would be a bit like saying I hate Dinosaur Jr! And what about Germaine Greer, one of the last centuries greatest Women's Rights advocates?  https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement

    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,993
    edited September 2018
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    unsung said:
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
    Nobody is getting convicted without proof, that is a lie.
    I also don't at all see how it happening 10 years ago changes anything - I don't feel bad for someone who has their career ruined because they are accused by a bunch of people of sexual abuse or misconduct (depending on the details of the misconduct), be it last week or 10 years ago.
    I do think the specific circumstances matter though, and have said many times that any hysteria related to accusations is beyond unhelpful. I also think that there needs to be some room for redemption in some cases (not others). That does NOT mean the #metoo movement isn't valuable. I worry about the fact that people seem to want to either embrace the movement without any criticism, or focus on what you're saying and therefore reject it outright. It's just more hysteria.

    We cannot, btw, rely solely on criminal convictions here. Accusers DO deserve a chance - a lot of mostly men seem to have decided to reject accusations altogether unless there are criminal charges, and that is not cool IMO. I 100% acknowledge that some women make false accusations..... But most do not. Yes, we need to be rational. The anti-#metoo'ers/accusation deniers are not being any more rational than those who don't know the difference between harmless flirting and sexual harassment or assault.
    I really hope your not putting me in that category.  That would be a bit like saying I hate Dinosaur Jr! And what about Germaine Greer, one of the last centuries greatest Women's Rights advocates?  https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement

    No I wasn't Brian... Unsung maybe, though I'm only going off that one comment of his, and leaping to conclusions, lol. But if he needs proof in all cases, then that's not going to work. There is a well-established reason behind why accusations might not come out until years later, at which point no proof that would hold up in court exists (and likely never existed at all - it was a he said/she said from the beginning), even if the statute of limitations hadn't expired... And I'm not good with sexual predators getting off the hook that easily. Such crimes are NOT comparable to other crimes in terms of establishing proof, and those who think they are or should be don't understand the issue properly at all, nor the nature of the crime in most cases.
    But really I was speaking generally - there are a LOT of people like that from what I can tell via the media/social media.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,320
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    unsung said:
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
    Nobody is getting convicted without proof, that is a lie.
    I also don't at all see how it happening 10 years ago changes anything - I don't feel bad for someone who has their career ruined because they are accused by a bunch of people of sexual abuse or misconduct (depending on the details of the misconduct), be it last week or 10 years ago.
    I do think the specific circumstances matter though, and have said many times that any hysteria related to accusations is beyond unhelpful. I also think that there needs to be some room for redemption in some cases (not others). That does NOT mean the #metoo movement isn't valuable. I worry about the fact that people seem to want to either embrace the movement without any criticism, or focus on what you're saying and therefore reject it outright. It's just more hysteria.

    We cannot, btw, rely solely on criminal convictions here. Accusers DO deserve a chance - a lot of mostly men seem to have decided to reject accusations altogether unless there are criminal charges, and that is not cool IMO. I 100% acknowledge that some women make false accusations..... But most do not. Yes, we need to be rational. The anti-#metoo'ers/accusation deniers are not being any more rational than those who don't know the difference between harmless flirting and sexual harassment or assault.
    I really hope your not putting me in that category.  That would be a bit like saying I hate Dinosaur Jr! And what about Germaine Greer, one of the last centuries greatest Women's Rights advocates?  https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement

    No I wasn't Brian... Unsung maybe, though I'm only going off that one comment of his, and leaping to conclusions, lol. But if he needs proof in all cases, then that's not going to work. There is a well-established reason behind why accusations might not come out until years later, at which point no proof that would hold up in court exists (and likely never existed at all - it was a he said/she said from the beginning), even if the statute of limitations hadn't expired... And I'm not good with sexual predators getting off the hook that easily. Such crimes are NOT comparable to other crimes in terms of establishing proof, and those who think they are or should be don't understand the issue properly at all, nor the nature of the crime in most cases.
    But really I was speaking generally - there are a LOT of people like that from what I can tell via the media/social media.
    Thanks, Allison, I didn't think you.

    Yeah, I agree, convicted sexual predators should not get off easy.  I'm sorry to say, I've known a few women who are or were victims to the extreme.  Their stories are hard to hear.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,559
    We have been dealing with he said/she said accusations for decades at least, so this is nothing new. For almost all of that time, society has decided to believe the men who deny accusations and tarnish the reputations of the women who made the accusations. Women lost not just jobs, but at times their lives. The current situation is a bit better; not perfect, but better. We are at least paying more attention to the accusations. 

    And when we talk about false accusations, it’s important to remember the false denials as well. How many times have men vehemently denied accusations that were later shown to be true? Of course some accusations will be false, but it’s likely to be a small minority. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,320
    We have been dealing with he said/she said accusations for decades at least, so this is nothing new. For almost all of that time, society has decided to believe the men who deny accusations and tarnish the reputations of the women who made the accusations. Women lost not just jobs, but at times their lives. The current situation is a bit better; not perfect, but better. We are at least paying more attention to the accusations. 

    And when we talk about false accusations, it’s important to remember the false denials as well. How many times have men vehemently denied accusations that were later shown to be true? Of course some accusations will be false, but it’s likely to be a small minority. 
    We should seek the truth in all cases and punish where punishable.  I don't believe anyone here has argued against that.  I definitely have not.
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,993
    We have been dealing with he said/she said accusations for decades at least, so this is nothing new. For almost all of that time, society has decided to believe the men who deny accusations and tarnish the reputations of the women who made the accusations. Women lost not just jobs, but at times their lives. The current situation is a bit better; not perfect, but better. We are at least paying more attention to the accusations. 

    And when we talk about false accusations, it’s important to remember the false denials as well. How many times have men vehemently denied accusations that were later shown to be true? Of course some accusations will be false, but it’s likely to be a small minority. 
    You're absolutely right. There is so much "concern" for men who might (or might not) be victims of false accusations, but those same people never show such concern for all the MILLIONS of women whose true accusations went unheard and ignored and dismissed, and they are the biggest victims in all this by far. Oh, but the poor CEO lost his job because 5 women have stories about his terrible abuse of power that can't technically be substantiated. :angry:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,320
    I agree whole hardheartedly with what Allison, oftenreading, KAT and others have said here. But  I think my point got lost here. I will graciously duck out here. 

    Ladies, you know I love ya, I'm all for you. 

    And let's have a good, strong woman president for a change. 

    Elizabeth...?


    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    unsung said:
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
    Nobody is getting convicted without proof, that is a lie.
    I also don't at all see how it happening 10 years ago changes anything - I don't feel bad for someone who has their career ruined because they are accused by a bunch of people of sexual abuse or misconduct (depending on the details of the misconduct), be it last week or 10 years ago.
    I do think the specific circumstances matter though, and have said many times that any hysteria related to accusations is beyond unhelpful. I also think that there needs to be some room for redemption in some cases (not others). That does NOT mean the #metoo movement isn't valuable. I worry about the fact that people seem to want to either embrace the movement without any criticism, or focus on what you're saying and therefore reject it outright. It's just more hysteria.

    We cannot, btw, rely solely on criminal convictions here. Accusers DO deserve a chance - a lot of mostly men seem to have decided to reject accusations altogether unless there are criminal charges, and that is not cool IMO. I 100% acknowledge that some women make false accusations..... But most do not. Yes, we need to be rational. The anti-#metoo'ers/accusation deniers are not being any more rational than those who don't know the difference between harmless flirting and sexual harassment or assault.
    I really hope your not putting me in that category.  That would be a bit like saying I hate Dinosaur Jr! And what about Germaine Greer, one of the last centuries greatest Women's Rights advocates?  https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement

    No I wasn't Brian... Unsung maybe, though I'm only going off that one comment of his, and leaping to conclusions, lol. But if he needs proof in all cases, then that's not going to work. There is a well-established reason behind why accusations might not come out until years later, at which point no proof that would hold up in court exists (and likely never existed at all - it was a he said/she said from the beginning), even if the statute of limitations hadn't expired... And I'm not good with sexual predators getting off the hook that easily. Such crimes are NOT comparable to other crimes in terms of establishing proof, and those who think they are or should be don't understand the issue properly at all, nor the nature of the crime in most cases.
    But really I was speaking generally - there are a LOT of people like that from what I can tell via the media/social media.
    Wait - you don’t need proof?  That’s not how the legal system works. Or are you saying the court of public opinion doesn’t need proof?

    Maybe I’m missing what you consider to be proof. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • brianlux said:
    I agree whole hardheartedly with what Allison, oftenreading, KAT and others have said here. But  I think my point got lost here. I will graciously duck out here. 

    Ladies, you know I love ya, I'm all for you. 

    And let's have a good, strong woman president for a change. 

    Elizabeth...?


    Weak sauce Brian. And Elizabeth warren is an awful choice 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,238
    brianlux said:
    that's another idiotic statement to make, and further makes women out to be the lesser gender. seriously, women were empowered only because we gave them that power? jesus. 
    That's now how I read it.  I think he means that we women have empowered themselves. 

    But anyway, you know, that's the funny thing about celebrities- especially movie stars- all too often people look to them to be The Guiding Light.  They are just higher profile, that's all.  At least half of them are full of shit.  So let's maybe focus on the issue and not the stars.

    Here again is my take:

    -Women have been oppressed far too long.
    -Many positive strides have been made by women, for women, in them becoming more liberated over the last 100 plus years.
    -Men and women both should not tolerate abuse of women

    But also this:

    - There is a difference between flirtation and sexual harassment.I've been flirted with a number of time (oh, don't worry, I'm not tooting my own horn- it ain't happened that often, haha).  So does that mean that all the times women have flirted with me I should get up tight and call it sexual abuse?  No.  Should true sexual abuse and harassment be called out and dealt with appropriately?  HELL YES!  But know the difference.

    And this:

    -Movements can be great for instigating and promoting social change.  But movements can also be corrupted, co-oped, infiltrated, abused, exaggerated or any of the above.  It happens.  I've seen it happen. To not at least consider that #MeToo has, at the very least, in some case, been corrupted, is blind allegiance to a cause.  It's "True Believer" mentality.  I strong advise against that kind of thinking, especially for anyone who truly want to see the advancement of social justice.  Social justice is hard work.  It's being educated.  It's looking at the bigger picture. 

    THIS IS TO NO ONE IN PARTICULAR HERE BUT, I'm actually mildly disturbed by some of the negative and what seem to me to be knee-jerk responses here.  Not meaning to offend.  This is an important issue.  It deserves to be done right.
    I don't look to celebrities for anything. I will agree if I agree or disagree if I disagree. doesn't matter if it's ed or if it's chad kroeger. 
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,238
    unsung said:
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
    I'm always curious when people make reference to the amount of time that has passed since the alleged incident. why is that relevant in any way?
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,238
    brianlux said:
    I agree whole hardheartedly with what Allison, oftenreading, KAT and others have said here. But  I think my point got lost here. I will graciously duck out here. 

    Ladies, you know I love ya, I'm all for you. 

    And let's have a good, strong woman president for a change. 

    Elizabeth...?


    Weak sauce Brian. And Elizabeth warren is an awful choice 
    EW would be the perfect choice if you want to see Trump a two term prez. 
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,238
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    unsung said:
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
    Nobody is getting convicted without proof, that is a lie.
    I also don't at all see how it happening 10 years ago changes anything - I don't feel bad for someone who has their career ruined because they are accused by a bunch of people of sexual abuse or misconduct (depending on the details of the misconduct), be it last week or 10 years ago.
    I do think the specific circumstances matter though, and have said many times that any hysteria related to accusations is beyond unhelpful. I also think that there needs to be some room for redemption in some cases (not others). That does NOT mean the #metoo movement isn't valuable. I worry about the fact that people seem to want to either embrace the movement without any criticism, or focus on what you're saying and therefore reject it outright. It's just more hysteria.

    We cannot, btw, rely solely on criminal convictions here. Accusers DO deserve a chance - a lot of mostly men seem to have decided to reject accusations altogether unless there are criminal charges, and that is not cool IMO. I 100% acknowledge that some women make false accusations..... But most do not. Yes, we need to be rational. The anti-#metoo'ers/accusation deniers are not being any more rational than those who don't know the difference between harmless flirting and sexual harassment or assault.
    I really hope your not putting me in that category.  That would be a bit like saying I hate Dinosaur Jr! And what about Germaine Greer, one of the last centuries greatest Women's Rights advocates?  https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement

    No I wasn't Brian... Unsung maybe, though I'm only going off that one comment of his, and leaping to conclusions, lol. But if he needs proof in all cases, then that's not going to work. There is a well-established reason behind why accusations might not come out until years later, at which point no proof that would hold up in court exists (and likely never existed at all - it was a he said/she said from the beginning), even if the statute of limitations hadn't expired... And I'm not good with sexual predators getting off the hook that easily. Such crimes are NOT comparable to other crimes in terms of establishing proof, and those who think they are or should be don't understand the issue properly at all, nor the nature of the crime in most cases.
    But really I was speaking generally - there are a LOT of people like that from what I can tell via the media/social media.
    Wait - you don’t need proof?  That’s not how the legal system works. Or are you saying the court of public opinion doesn’t need proof?

    Maybe I’m missing what you consider to be proof. 
    depends what you consider proof. if there is no DNA from an instantly-reported rape, there really is no "proof". But, if you look at the facts, i.e; what each party stands to gain/lose, behaviour, witnesses, etc. 

    I can't imagine many women would come forward and go to the lengths of being publically shamed and humiliated just because a guy dumped her or didn't pay attention to her at the bar or turned down her movie treatment. that would be downright psycho. 
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,559
    Dr. Blasey Ford is sure having a wonderful time right now with her moment of fame, isn't she? And people wonder why women don't report. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 4,780
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    unsung said:
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
    Nobody is getting convicted without proof, that is a lie.
    I also don't at all see how it happening 10 years ago changes anything - I don't feel bad for someone who has their career ruined because they are accused by a bunch of people of sexual abuse or misconduct (depending on the details of the misconduct), be it last week or 10 years ago.
    I do think the specific circumstances matter though, and have said many times that any hysteria related to accusations is beyond unhelpful. I also think that there needs to be some room for redemption in some cases (not others). That does NOT mean the #metoo movement isn't valuable. I worry about the fact that people seem to want to either embrace the movement without any criticism, or focus on what you're saying and therefore reject it outright. It's just more hysteria.

    We cannot, btw, rely solely on criminal convictions here. Accusers DO deserve a chance - a lot of mostly men seem to have decided to reject accusations altogether unless there are criminal charges, and that is not cool IMO. I 100% acknowledge that some women make false accusations..... But most do not. Yes, we need to be rational. The anti-#metoo'ers/accusation deniers are not being any more rational than those who don't know the difference between harmless flirting and sexual harassment or assault.
    I really hope your not putting me in that category.  That would be a bit like saying I hate Dinosaur Jr! And what about Germaine Greer, one of the last centuries greatest Women's Rights advocates?  https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement

    No I wasn't Brian... Unsung maybe, though I'm only going off that one comment of his, and leaping to conclusions, lol. But if he needs proof in all cases, then that's not going to work. There is a well-established reason behind why accusations might not come out until years later, at which point no proof that would hold up in court exists (and likely never existed at all - it was a he said/she said from the beginning), even if the statute of limitations hadn't expired... And I'm not good with sexual predators getting off the hook that easily. Such crimes are NOT comparable to other crimes in terms of establishing proof, and those who think they are or should be don't understand the issue properly at all, nor the nature of the crime in most cases.
    But really I was speaking generally - there are a LOT of people like that from what I can tell via the media/social media.
    Wait - you don’t need proof?  That’s not how the legal system works. Or are you saying the court of public opinion doesn’t need proof?

    Maybe I’m missing what you consider to be proof. 
    depends what you consider proof. if there is no DNA from an instantly-reported rape, there really is no "proof". But, if you look at the facts, i.e; what each party stands to gain/lose, behaviour, witnesses, etc. 

    I can't imagine many women would come forward and go to the lengths of being publically shamed and humiliated just because a guy dumped her or didn't pay attention to her at the bar or turned down her movie treatment. that would be downright psycho. 
    Not to delude the movement, but i’ve seem women (and men) do some pretty psycho things after being dumped.  Logic and reason go out the window for some when angry or experiencing strong negative emotions.  The motive could merely be revenge.  I think that time frames do matter when recollection of events surrounding an allegation this serious come into play.  One of the first things a lawyer is going to do is attack the credibility of the accuser’s memory.
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 17,238
    PJPOWER said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    unsung said:
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
    Nobody is getting convicted without proof, that is a lie.
    I also don't at all see how it happening 10 years ago changes anything - I don't feel bad for someone who has their career ruined because they are accused by a bunch of people of sexual abuse or misconduct (depending on the details of the misconduct), be it last week or 10 years ago.
    I do think the specific circumstances matter though, and have said many times that any hysteria related to accusations is beyond unhelpful. I also think that there needs to be some room for redemption in some cases (not others). That does NOT mean the #metoo movement isn't valuable. I worry about the fact that people seem to want to either embrace the movement without any criticism, or focus on what you're saying and therefore reject it outright. It's just more hysteria.

    We cannot, btw, rely solely on criminal convictions here. Accusers DO deserve a chance - a lot of mostly men seem to have decided to reject accusations altogether unless there are criminal charges, and that is not cool IMO. I 100% acknowledge that some women make false accusations..... But most do not. Yes, we need to be rational. The anti-#metoo'ers/accusation deniers are not being any more rational than those who don't know the difference between harmless flirting and sexual harassment or assault.
    I really hope your not putting me in that category.  That would be a bit like saying I hate Dinosaur Jr! And what about Germaine Greer, one of the last centuries greatest Women's Rights advocates?  https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement

    No I wasn't Brian... Unsung maybe, though I'm only going off that one comment of his, and leaping to conclusions, lol. But if he needs proof in all cases, then that's not going to work. There is a well-established reason behind why accusations might not come out until years later, at which point no proof that would hold up in court exists (and likely never existed at all - it was a he said/she said from the beginning), even if the statute of limitations hadn't expired... And I'm not good with sexual predators getting off the hook that easily. Such crimes are NOT comparable to other crimes in terms of establishing proof, and those who think they are or should be don't understand the issue properly at all, nor the nature of the crime in most cases.
    But really I was speaking generally - there are a LOT of people like that from what I can tell via the media/social media.
    Wait - you don’t need proof?  That’s not how the legal system works. Or are you saying the court of public opinion doesn’t need proof?

    Maybe I’m missing what you consider to be proof. 
    depends what you consider proof. if there is no DNA from an instantly-reported rape, there really is no "proof". But, if you look at the facts, i.e; what each party stands to gain/lose, behaviour, witnesses, etc. 

    I can't imagine many women would come forward and go to the lengths of being publically shamed and humiliated just because a guy dumped her or didn't pay attention to her at the bar or turned down her movie treatment. that would be downright psycho. 
    Not to delude the movement, but i’ve seem women (and men) do some pretty psycho things after being dumped.  Logic and reason go out the window for some when angry or experiencing strong negative emotions.  The motive could merely be revenge.  I think that time frames do matter when recollection of events surrounding an allegation this serious come into play.  One of the first things a lawyer is going to do is attack the credibility of the accuser’s memory.
    yes, but my point is to take it to that extreme of:

    -if the accused is in the public eye, the accuser is basically asking for their lives to be ruined
    -if the accused is not in the public eye, and the accuser takes it all the way to court,  that can take years and loads of cash. that just doesn't happen. 

    trauma like that doesn't wash from your memory. it just doesn't. 
    "It's so nice when toxic people stop talking to you.
    It's like the trash took itself out"
This discussion has been closed.