This thread has gone far enough. "Be kind." -Ilona Anne Coggswater

OnWis97

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

And the number of enablers that look the other way...

This backlash was destined to happen.  Culturally, so much crap was allowed to go on that women (well, all victims; mostly women) could not really say much and now they're feeling empowered to finally say something.  And it's very telling that something that occurred in 1985 is still causing pain.  It's equally telling that so many people think that most of these women are liars.

Look, the idea that someone could flat out make up a story about me has occurred to me.  And I suspect that it has happened.  For the most part, I feel safe because I have not even flirted with any lines.  So has the movement gone too far?  If we decide that it's gone too far then we may as well just acknowledge it right now and go back to laughing when someone slaps a secretary on the ass.  Sexual harassment is a probablem at my office right now.  2018.  I don't want to see it validated.

I don't think that anyone that ever called someone "hon" in 1990 needs to be harmed to this day.  There are some "context" things from the past that w cannot undo.  But pardon me for not sticking up for Les Moonves.

PJ_Soul

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I have witnessed first-hand how men can behave like animals.

Sorry to hear that.  Me too. 

I think everyone has. The word HFD was "rampant". That wasn't an exaggeration.

PJ_Soul

brianlux said:

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

I'm definitely not against the legit complaints.  But if you read the articles, you may find some are not so legit and that can hurt a useful movement.

Sure, but having some illegit complaints among the legit ones is a hell of a lot better than the alternative, which is everyone just ignoring the problem altogether, which is basically what was happening before the #metoo movement. At the very least, the #metoo movement, with or without illegitimate accusations, has made a lot of assholes stop and actually consider their behaviour simply out of fear of being accused - there are a lot of creepy pervs who abused and harassed who are now walking on egg shells (and grumbling about how they have to do so), and thank goodness for that. For now, that's way better than nothing. This is a looooong term thing, fixing this. I'm not surprised about the "hiccups" happening now. Like I said before, this is a learning process. The idiot masses need a lot more time to figure out how to deal with it all.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

I'm definitely not against the legit complaints.  But if you read the articles, you may find some are not so legit and that can hurt a useful movement.

Sure, but having some illegit complaints among the legit ones is a hell of a lot better than the alternative, which is everyone just ignoring the problem altogether, which is basically what was happening before the #metoo movement. At the very least, the #metoo movement, with or without illegitimate accusations, has made a lot of assholes stop and actually consider their behaviour simply out of fear of being accused - there are a lot of creepy pervs who abused and harassed who are now walking on egg shells (and grumbling about how they have to do so), and thank goodness for that. For now, that's way better than nothing. This is a looooong term thing, fixing this. I'm not surprised about the "hiccups" happening now. Like I said before, this is a learning process. The idiot masses need a lot more time to figure out how to deal with it all.

collectively, yes, it is better than the alternative. individually, though, for those that have to suffer through an illegit complaint, they have a differing opinion. 

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I have witnessed first-hand how men can behave like animals.

Sorry to hear that.  Me too. 

I think everyone has. The word HFD was "rampant". That wasn't an exaggeration.

i witnessed something in the 90's that resembled a pack of wolves surrounding a baby sheep. they were all friends of mine (at least one still is). I think they all thought it was funny at the time, but I'm sure the girl was probably traumatized. 

oftenreading

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

I'm definitely not against the legit complaints.  But if you read the articles, you may find some are not so legit and that can hurt a useful movement.

Sure, but having some illegit complaints among the legit ones is a hell of a lot better than the alternative, which is everyone just ignoring the problem altogether, which is basically what was happening before the #metoo movement. At the very least, the #metoo movement, with or without illegitimate accusations, has made a lot of assholes stop and actually consider their behaviour simply out of fear of being accused - there are a lot of creepy pervs who abused and harassed who are now walking on egg shells (and grumbling about how they have to do so), and thank goodness for that. For now, that's way better than nothing. This is a looooong term thing, fixing this. I'm not surprised about the "hiccups" happening now. Like I said before, this is a learning process. The idiot masses need a lot more time to figure out how to deal with it all.

collectively, yes, it is better than the alternative. individually, though, for those that have to suffer through an illegit complaint, they have a differing opinion. 

And all the people, women and men, who were abused over the years and decades and more had a differing opinion of the status quo at that point.

It's a massive change. It is very much needed, but no massive change occurs without some problems, due to human nature. No matter how careful we are, we can't avoid it. Even once things settle out and the time of casual abuse is in our rearviewmirror, there will still be problems, but hopefully fewer.

So absolutely #MeToo has not gone too far. 

PJ_Soul

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

I'm definitely not against the legit complaints.  But if you read the articles, you may find some are not so legit and that can hurt a useful movement.

Sure, but having some illegit complaints among the legit ones is a hell of a lot better than the alternative, which is everyone just ignoring the problem altogether, which is basically what was happening before the #metoo movement. At the very least, the #metoo movement, with or without illegitimate accusations, has made a lot of assholes stop and actually consider their behaviour simply out of fear of being accused - there are a lot of creepy pervs who abused and harassed who are now walking on egg shells (and grumbling about how they have to do so), and thank goodness for that. For now, that's way better than nothing. This is a looooong term thing, fixing this. I'm not surprised about the "hiccups" happening now. Like I said before, this is a learning process. The idiot masses need a lot more time to figure out how to deal with it all.

collectively, yes, it is better than the alternative. individually, though, for those that have to suffer through an illegit complaint, they have a differing opinion. 

And all the people, women and men, who were abused over the years and decades and more had a differing opinion of the status quo at that point.

It's a massive change. It is very much needed, but no massive change occurs without some problems, due to human nature. No matter how careful we are, we can't avoid it. Even once things settle out and the time of casual abuse is in our rearviewmirror, there will still be problems, but hopefully fewer.

So absolutely #MeToo has not gone too far. 

What she said.

That doesn't mean I don't find false accusations appalling though. I do. Each one of those need to be paid a ton of attention so that people can learn better.

HughFreakingDillon

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

I'm definitely not against the legit complaints.  But if you read the articles, you may find some are not so legit and that can hurt a useful movement.

Sure, but having some illegit complaints among the legit ones is a hell of a lot better than the alternative, which is everyone just ignoring the problem altogether, which is basically what was happening before the #metoo movement. At the very least, the #metoo movement, with or without illegitimate accusations, has made a lot of assholes stop and actually consider their behaviour simply out of fear of being accused - there are a lot of creepy pervs who abused and harassed who are now walking on egg shells (and grumbling about how they have to do so), and thank goodness for that. For now, that's way better than nothing. This is a looooong term thing, fixing this. I'm not surprised about the "hiccups" happening now. Like I said before, this is a learning process. The idiot masses need a lot more time to figure out how to deal with it all.

collectively, yes, it is better than the alternative. individually, though, for those that have to suffer through an illegit complaint, they have a differing opinion. 

And all the people, women and men, who were abused over the years and decades and more had a differing opinion of the status quo at that point.

It's a massive change. It is very much needed, but no massive change occurs without some problems, due to human nature. No matter how careful we are, we can't avoid it. Even once things settle out and the time of casual abuse is in our rearviewmirror, there will still be problems, but hopefully fewer.

So absolutely #MeToo has not gone too far. 

I agree with you. I'm trying very hard not to minimize their situation by propping up the very few who have been wrongly accused. However, I don't think it's fair to just dismiss that eventuality. not saying anyone here is, I just think it deserves mentioning (like Aziz Ansari). 

I didn't read Jian Ghomeshi's "article" the other day, but I've read excerpts and it is completely and utterly disgusting what I did read. 

mickeyrat

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

My concern about #MeToo is that it is being co-opted in such a way that, at least in some cases, it is becoming less helpful to women's issues and harmful to some women and men (example of this are in the articles I posted).

Personally, I never understood how it got to this point in the first place.  How is it that so many men are sexual predators such that a movement was needed in the first place?  But then I feel the same way about wars, human induced animal extinction and climate change, and planned obsolescent.  We are a weird and often sick species.

men have been clubbing women and carrying them off to their caves to have their way since the inception of our species. it's no surprise this is still a rampant problem. 

So true.  But the thing is, we are supposedly this highly intelligent species capable of learning, growing and changing and understanding morals and appropriate behavior.  Perhaps our intelligence is over-rated?

we ourselves label us as such. if that came from an independent 3rd party I would believe it.

PJ_Soul

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

My concern about #MeToo is that it is being co-opted in such a way that, at least in some cases, it is becoming less helpful to women's issues and harmful to some women and men (example of this are in the articles I posted).

Personally, I never understood how it got to this point in the first place.  How is it that so many men are sexual predators such that a movement was needed in the first place?  But then I feel the same way about wars, human induced animal extinction and climate change, and planned obsolescent.  We are a weird and often sick species.

men have been clubbing women and carrying them off to their caves to have their way since the inception of our species. it's no surprise this is still a rampant problem. 

So true.  But the thing is, we are supposedly this highly intelligent species capable of learning, growing and changing and understanding morals and appropriate behavior.  Perhaps our intelligence is over-rated?

we ourselves label us as such. if that came from an independent 3rd party I would believe it.

I think highly intelligent humans capable of learning, growing and changing and understanding morals and appropriate behaviour is still more the exception among our species, not the norm, and even then it's on an individual level. The masses are way dumber than their individual parts.

Meltdown99

Sean Penn says #MeToo movement is trying to ‘divide men and women’
https://globalnews.ca/news/4462067/sean-penn-metoo-movement-divide-men-and-women/?utm_source=GlobalNational&utm_medium=Facebook

HughFreakingDillon

Meltdown99 said:

Sean Penn says #MeToo movement is trying to ‘divide men and women’
https://globalnews.ca/news/4462067/sean-penn-metoo-movement-divide-men-and-women/?utm_source=GlobalNational&utm_medium=Facebook

he's a fucking idiot. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

Meltdown99 said:

Sean Penn says #MeToo movement is trying to ‘divide men and women’
https://globalnews.ca/news/4462067/sean-penn-metoo-movement-divide-men-and-women/?utm_source=GlobalNational&utm_medium=Facebook

he's a fucking idiot. 

Great actor, but yeah, that is an idiotic statement to say the least.... He's probably scared out of his mind because he knows how many times he's crossed the line over the years...... Weird that he and EV are supposedly close friends btw.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Meltdown99 said:

Sean Penn says #MeToo movement is trying to ‘divide men and women’
https://globalnews.ca/news/4462067/sean-penn-metoo-movement-divide-men-and-women/?utm_source=GlobalNational&utm_medium=Facebook

he's a fucking idiot. 

Great actor, but yeah, that is an idiotic statement to say the least.... He's probably scared out of his mind because he knows how many times he's crossed the line over the years...... Weird that he and EV are supposedly close friends btw.

and just to be sure, I read the entire quote. it does not make him look any better than just that one snippet. 

F Me In The Brain

“I’d like to think that none of it was influenced by what they call the movement of #MeToo,” Penn said. “I think it’s influenced by the things that are developing in terms of the empowerment of women who’ve been acknowledging each other and being acknowledged by men."Men acknowledging women has empowered them? 

Guess I could see that happening a small % of the time. 

He is ignoring the boorish behavior that many of his fellow Hollywood elite engaged in...and of course he had his own experiences with reported (alleged) abuse and the press backlash.  [Happened at a time when it didn't really matter much toward his career]

He has done some really good things in the world, think he is way off base here in his take.

HughFreakingDillon

that's another idiotic statement to make, and further makes women out to be the lesser gender. seriously, women were empowered only because we gave them that power? jesus. 

brianlux

HughFreakingDillon said:

that's another idiotic statement to make, and further makes women out to be the lesser gender. seriously, women were empowered only because we gave them that power? jesus. 

That's now how I read it.  I think he means that we women have empowered themselves. 

But anyway, you know, that's the funny thing about celebrities- especially movie stars- all too often people look to them to be The Guiding Light.  They are just higher profile, that's all.  At least half of them are full of shit.  So let's maybe focus on the issue and not the stars.

Here again is my take:

-Women have been oppressed far too long.

-Many positive strides have been made by women, for women, in them becoming more liberated over the last 100 plus years.

-Men and women both should not tolerate abuse of women

But also this:

- There is a difference between flirtation and sexual harassment.I've been flirted with a number of time (oh, don't worry, I'm not tooting my own horn- it ain't happened that often, haha).  So does that mean that all the times women have flirted with me I should get up tight and call it sexual abuse?  No.  Should true sexual abuse and harassment be called out and dealt with appropriately?  HELL YES!  But know the difference.

And this:

-Movements can be great for instigating and promoting social change.  But movements can also be corrupted, co-oped, infiltrated, abused, exaggerated or any of the above.  It happens.  I've seen it happen. To not at least consider that #MeToo has, at the very least, in some case, been corrupted, is blind allegiance to a cause.  It's "True Believer" mentality.  I strong advise against that kind of thinking, especially for anyone who truly want to see the advancement of social justice.  Social justice is hard work.  It's being educated.  It's looking at the bigger picture. 

THIS IS TO NO ONE IN PARTICULAR HERE BUT, I'm actually mildly disturbed by some of the negative and what seem to me to be knee-jerk responses here.  Not meaning to offend.  This is an important issue.  It deserves to be done right.

PJ_Soul

Brian, nobody who is being reasonable or rational says that flirting is sexual abuse, so I think that point is relatively moot to be honest. You can't look at the #metoo movement by only considering what hysterical idiots have to say about it and let that taint your view of the movement. What IS a real problem is that many men (and a small number of women) do not understand when they ARE crossing the line between flirting and something harmful and supposedly they don't even know it (although in almost ALL cases, I think they DO know it; they just don't care and/or go into denial mode when confronted). THAT is the main problem and where our focus should be trained. Not some hysterical fool calling flirting sexual abuse, which, frankly, is very rarely happening - I feel like you maybe think it's really rampant, but I don't think it is. The sexual harassment and abuse is far more widespread and rampant. Silly, groundless accusations are very few and far between. I'm not saying they should be ignored when they happen, but I also don't think they need to be looked at as a really massive problem in this movement, because that actually serves to counteract the positives more than doing anything helpful. IMO.

That said, I've already made it clear that mass hysteria has been a factor in this whole thing. I'm more talking about your specific comment about flirting being seen as sexual abuse. Um, no, I don't think that is as much of a concern as you seem to, and I don't think it's an accusation being thrown around a lot. Yes, Aziz Ansari got fucked over by that silly woman he went on a date with and by the media's reaction to it... I can't really think of any other examples of this kind of thing though. I know a few men who were inappropriate have tried to CLAIM that it was harmless flirting, but I've not seen much to suggest that was truly the case... How many do you think it's happened to Brian? Like 3 people in Hollywood? 4? ... I can't see that as a big huge issue, in terms of the big picture.

brianlux

PJ_Soul said:

Brian, nobody who is being reasonable or rational says that flirting is sexual abuse, so I think that point is moot. You can't look at the #metoo movement by only considering what hysterical idiots have to say about it, that's the thing. I feel you're concentrating too much on those who everyone should already be ignoring.

Should, being the operative word, Allison.  And when the outliers are not ignored, they corrupt a good thing.

Like I say, I've seen this happen before, especially in the environmental movement.  Look what happened to Earth First!

PJ_Soul

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

Brian, nobody who is being reasonable or rational says that flirting is sexual abuse, so I think that point is moot. You can't look at the #metoo movement by only considering what hysterical idiots have to say about it, that's the thing. I feel you're concentrating too much on those who everyone should already be ignoring.

Should, being the operative word, Allison.  And when the outliers are not ignored, they corrupt a good thing.

Like I say, I've seen this happen before, especially in the environmental movement.  Look what happened to Earth First!

I added hugely to my post Brian, lol.

I agree with you here - the media and paying WAY too much attention to a few outliers, and it's causing people to turn on the #metoo movement in general... I guess I'm trying to just distinguish between the actual movement as it really exists, and a false perception of it. Yes, too much is being made of just a few incidents... when in reality, they really shouldn't have much of an impact at all... I do blame the media, but also those who allow the media's unbalanced coverage to affect their perceptions.