Texas shooting, Our fault.

mcgruff10

fife said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I completely support the gun owners paying for all those expenses. Why wouldn't that fly? I don't see why it shouldn't be expensive. That doesn't violate anyone's rights assuming you're going by how America operates in general. Hell, it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary.

There have been many here who claim to not be for a ban, but then say they would be for measures that just make it impractical for the average person to afford one.
i think yearly mental checks and safety courses and everything else would add up very quickly, and if run by the government would no doubt be ineffective and a waste of time. I’ve spent a half day at the DMV just to get a copy of my driving record, how much worse would this process be?
i think a required safety course is reasonable. I think a mental health check is reasonable. I think background checks and registering your gun is reasonable. Doing all that every year will very likely price the average gun owner out of owning guns.
id even be fine with linking your dr visits to the registeation, so if you take antidepressants or other medications or warning signs them that could flag another check. Have a number friends and family and neighbors can call, like they do with child protective services. Just doesn’t seem necessary to do it every year for everyone. I think I’ve provided more than a fair compromise for gun control, demanding more than that will just make gun owners not want to do anything.

Just to put things in perspective, me and my wife are trying to adopt a kid and these are the things that we have to do just to be put on the list. 

have to attend a 8 day training course (8 hours a day)
have to give all my financial info ( have to do this every year that we are waiting)  
have to have 5 home visits from a trained social worker
Have to give a full medication eval (have to give every year)
have to give 5 references to children aid. 
have to attend other training courses as required
after we get our kid, children aid still comes to your house for atleast 6 month

now I have no problem with this and think this is reasonable.  the reason we have to do many of these things every year is because people change.  the reason i believe that people should get mental health backround every year is for the same reason.  

Congrats bud and good luck!  Is this your first kid?

fife

mcgruff10 said:

fife said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I completely support the gun owners paying for all those expenses. Why wouldn't that fly? I don't see why it shouldn't be expensive. That doesn't violate anyone's rights assuming you're going by how America operates in general. Hell, it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary.

There have been many here who claim to not be for a ban, but then say they would be for measures that just make it impractical for the average person to afford one.
i think yearly mental checks and safety courses and everything else would add up very quickly, and if run by the government would no doubt be ineffective and a waste of time. I’ve spent a half day at the DMV just to get a copy of my driving record, how much worse would this process be?
i think a required safety course is reasonable. I think a mental health check is reasonable. I think background checks and registering your gun is reasonable. Doing all that every year will very likely price the average gun owner out of owning guns.
id even be fine with linking your dr visits to the registeation, so if you take antidepressants or other medications or warning signs them that could flag another check. Have a number friends and family and neighbors can call, like they do with child protective services. Just doesn’t seem necessary to do it every year for everyone. I think I’ve provided more than a fair compromise for gun control, demanding more than that will just make gun owners not want to do anything.

Just to put things in perspective, me and my wife are trying to adopt a kid and these are the things that we have to do just to be put on the list. 

have to attend a 8 day training course (8 hours a day)
have to give all my financial info ( have to do this every year that we are waiting)  
have to have 5 home visits from a trained social worker
Have to give a full medication eval (have to give every year)
have to give 5 references to children aid. 
have to attend other training courses as required
after we get our kid, children aid still comes to your house for atleast 6 month

now I have no problem with this and think this is reasonable.  the reason we have to do many of these things every year is because people change.  the reason i believe that people should get mental health backround every year is for the same reason.  

Congrats bud and good luck!  Is this your first kid?

thanks yes our first kid.  also just to get back to the theme of this discussion, i threw out the example of Japan guns laws  just to show how other countries do things, I don't expect every country to follow that example but I do believe that we can take things from what other countries do and apply them for our own country. 

HughFreakingDillon

mcgruff10 said:

fife said:

mattsl1983 said:

dignin said:

mattsl1983 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Why does someone get classified an anti-gunner just because they want common sense gun laws?

What is common sense gun laws?  It sounds really good to say, but what exactly is it?  I’ll stand behind you 100 percent if it’s good, but no one actually defines common sense gun laws.  And as a heads up, have some research behind what it is and what you are saying is common sense gun laws.  As a person speaking to you that believes I the 2nd amendment, I’m also a none gu owner.  I have nothing to win or gain in this debate aside my ideology of the 2nd amendment.  I’ve been wrong before and my world didn’t crash down.  But what is common sense gun laws?

It's hard to take you seriously with a post like this. Go over to the gun violence thread and read up, you might learn something.

In fact, mods should merge this thread with the gun violence thread....this one is redundant. 

I don’t think it is at all redundant.  The other gun thread is 100’s of pages long.  This shooting happened to involve two guns that aren’t even up for debate to be restricted.  But you are the second person to cite common sense gun laws but not explaining what they are.  I’ll meet you on the other post.  I apologize if you find my question and wondering hard to be taken seriously.

here are some common sense laws.

If Japanese people want to own a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written test, and achieve at least 95% accuracy during a shooting-range test. Then they have to pass a mental-health evaluation, which takes place at a hospital, and pass a background check, in which the government digs into their criminal record and interviews friends and family. They can only buy shotguns and air rifles — no handguns — and every three years they must retake the class and initial exam.

the only change I would make is that you would have a mental health check every year.

Yeah this would never fly lol. Air rifles? What am I ten?

no, because in america air rifles are for preschoolers. 

mcgruff10

fife said:

mcgruff10 said:

fife said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I completely support the gun owners paying for all those expenses. Why wouldn't that fly? I don't see why it shouldn't be expensive. That doesn't violate anyone's rights assuming you're going by how America operates in general. Hell, it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary.

There have been many here who claim to not be for a ban, but then say they would be for measures that just make it impractical for the average person to afford one.
i think yearly mental checks and safety courses and everything else would add up very quickly, and if run by the government would no doubt be ineffective and a waste of time. I’ve spent a half day at the DMV just to get a copy of my driving record, how much worse would this process be?
i think a required safety course is reasonable. I think a mental health check is reasonable. I think background checks and registering your gun is reasonable. Doing all that every year will very likely price the average gun owner out of owning guns.
id even be fine with linking your dr visits to the registeation, so if you take antidepressants or other medications or warning signs them that could flag another check. Have a number friends and family and neighbors can call, like they do with child protective services. Just doesn’t seem necessary to do it every year for everyone. I think I’ve provided more than a fair compromise for gun control, demanding more than that will just make gun owners not want to do anything.

Just to put things in perspective, me and my wife are trying to adopt a kid and these are the things that we have to do just to be put on the list. 

have to attend a 8 day training course (8 hours a day)
have to give all my financial info ( have to do this every year that we are waiting)  
have to have 5 home visits from a trained social worker
Have to give a full medication eval (have to give every year)
have to give 5 references to children aid. 
have to attend other training courses as required
after we get our kid, children aid still comes to your house for atleast 6 month

now I have no problem with this and think this is reasonable.  the reason we have to do many of these things every year is because people change.  the reason i believe that people should get mental health backround every year is for the same reason.  

Congrats bud and good luck!  Is this your first kid?

thanks yes our first kid.  also just to get back to the theme of this discussion, i threw out the example of Japan guns laws  just to show how other countries do things, I don't expect every country to follow that example but I do believe that we can take things from what other countries do and apply them for our own country. 

Yeah some of the laws would definitely be useful.  Like I said, I am all about background checks and training.  
Just remember to be patient with each other when  bring that kid home. You ll quickly find out that every situation is unique. 

HughFreakingDillon

mace1229 said:

benjs said:

mace1229 said:

benjs said:

mcgruff10 said:

fife said:

mattsl1983 said:

dignin said:

mattsl1983 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Why does someone get classified an anti-gunner just because they want common sense gun laws?

What is common sense gun laws?  It sounds really good to say, but what exactly is it?  I’ll stand behind you 100 percent if it’s good, but no one actually defines common sense gun laws.  And as a heads up, have some research behind what it is and what you are saying is common sense gun laws.  As a person speaking to you that believes I the 2nd amendment, I’m also a none gu owner.  I have nothing to win or gain in this debate aside my ideology of the 2nd amendment.  I’ve been wrong before and my world didn’t crash down.  But what is common sense gun laws?

It's hard to take you seriously with a post like this. Go over to the gun violence thread and read up, you might learn something.

In fact, mods should merge this thread with the gun violence thread....this one is redundant. 

I don’t think it is at all redundant.  The other gun thread is 100’s of pages long.  This shooting happened to involve two guns that aren’t even up for debate to be restricted.  But you are the second person to cite common sense gun laws but not explaining what they are.  I’ll meet you on the other post.  I apologize if you find my question and wondering hard to be taken seriously.

here are some common sense laws.

If Japanese people want to own a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written test, and achieve at least 95% accuracy during a shooting-range test. Then they have to pass a mental-health evaluation, which takes place at a hospital, and pass a background check, in which the government digs into their criminal record and interviews friends and family. They can only buy shotguns and air rifles — no handguns — and every three years they must retake the class and initial exam.

the only change I would make is that you would have a mental health check every year.

Yeah this would never fly lol. Air rifles? What am I ten?

This is why this won’t work in America. When a suggestion arises to follow the lead of a country exponentially safer than your own, you ridicule it as though it’s some hilarious joke. I’m currently in Kanazawa and have been touring Japan for nearly two weeks now and you’re right, this will never fly. Concepts of care and concern, empathy, dignity, logic, honour and respect are innate to every person I’ve met here. In America? Not so much.

Your country’s mass murders will continue as will the apathy of those who cling to their right to bear arms. 

Everyone keeps saying "no one wants to ban your guns," and mocks those who think thats what people want.
But that is exactly what your suggestion is. Bans everything except a shotgun. 
Most gun owners are for more gun laws, just not all out gun bans. And why that suggestion won't get any support from any gun owner.

What about the other parts then? You ignored a lot of reasonable suggestions regarding checks and balances prior to owning a weapon.

In theory I’m for the rest of the ideas. I say in their because I’d be curious about the cost and logistics behind all that. I can’t imagine going down to the DMV once a year for a driving test, takes me half a day to just get my driving record, and that’s just a piece of paper that takes 15 seconds to look up. And I think that’s what makes a lot of people cautious, it’s perfectly reasonable to question how smooth and efficient the government would ha for that. And with the cost of healthcare, what’s the cost of yearly mental-health evaluations and who pays for it? I’m assuming the gun owner, but that wouldn’t fly either if they’re $500 a pop.
i would say start with a one-time mental check and safety course, background check for every purchase, 

why is cost and time a concern when it's an inconvenience to the gun owner (registation, exams, tests) but "we'll find the money" and "I'll drop my kid off at 6am" when it's an inconvenience to everyone else (making schools into fortresses, etc)?

the cost on the regulation side vs the 2A side isn't even close. it's laughable. 

fife

mcgruff10 said:

fife said:

mcgruff10 said:

fife said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I completely support the gun owners paying for all those expenses. Why wouldn't that fly? I don't see why it shouldn't be expensive. That doesn't violate anyone's rights assuming you're going by how America operates in general. Hell, it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary.

There have been many here who claim to not be for a ban, but then say they would be for measures that just make it impractical for the average person to afford one.
i think yearly mental checks and safety courses and everything else would add up very quickly, and if run by the government would no doubt be ineffective and a waste of time. I’ve spent a half day at the DMV just to get a copy of my driving record, how much worse would this process be?
i think a required safety course is reasonable. I think a mental health check is reasonable. I think background checks and registering your gun is reasonable. Doing all that every year will very likely price the average gun owner out of owning guns.
id even be fine with linking your dr visits to the registeation, so if you take antidepressants or other medications or warning signs them that could flag another check. Have a number friends and family and neighbors can call, like they do with child protective services. Just doesn’t seem necessary to do it every year for everyone. I think I’ve provided more than a fair compromise for gun control, demanding more than that will just make gun owners not want to do anything.

Just to put things in perspective, me and my wife are trying to adopt a kid and these are the things that we have to do just to be put on the list. 

have to attend a 8 day training course (8 hours a day)
have to give all my financial info ( have to do this every year that we are waiting)  
have to have 5 home visits from a trained social worker
Have to give a full medication eval (have to give every year)
have to give 5 references to children aid. 
have to attend other training courses as required
after we get our kid, children aid still comes to your house for atleast 6 month

now I have no problem with this and think this is reasonable.  the reason we have to do many of these things every year is because people change.  the reason i believe that people should get mental health backround every year is for the same reason.  

Congrats bud and good luck!  Is this your first kid?

thanks yes our first kid.  also just to get back to the theme of this discussion, i threw out the example of Japan guns laws  just to show how other countries do things, I don't expect every country to follow that example but I do believe that we can take things from what other countries do and apply them for our own country. 

Yeah some of the laws would definitely be useful.  Like I said, I am all about background checks and training.  
Just remember to be patient with each other when  bring that kid home. You ll quickly find out that every situation is unique. 

oh yes we know.  I'm a social worker and my wife used to work with kids with downs syndrome so I am hoping that this will help us out.

Now just a questions about background checks.  what would people want to see in background checks for gun ownership? 

from what i gather background checks for the following:

are convicted of a crime that carried a sentence of more than one year, or a misdemeanor that carried a sentence of over two years

Are a fugitive (i.e. there's a felony or misdemeanor warrant for your arrest)

Are diagnosed mentally ill, which can include being involuntarily committed, found not guilty by reason of insanity, or found unfit to stand trial
Were convicted of domestic violence

Are they other things other than these that should be a part of the background checks and if so what and if not why not?

HughFreakingDillon

fife said:

mcgruff10 said:

fife said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I completely support the gun owners paying for all those expenses. Why wouldn't that fly? I don't see why it shouldn't be expensive. That doesn't violate anyone's rights assuming you're going by how America operates in general. Hell, it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary.

There have been many here who claim to not be for a ban, but then say they would be for measures that just make it impractical for the average person to afford one.
i think yearly mental checks and safety courses and everything else would add up very quickly, and if run by the government would no doubt be ineffective and a waste of time. I’ve spent a half day at the DMV just to get a copy of my driving record, how much worse would this process be?
i think a required safety course is reasonable. I think a mental health check is reasonable. I think background checks and registering your gun is reasonable. Doing all that every year will very likely price the average gun owner out of owning guns.
id even be fine with linking your dr visits to the registeation, so if you take antidepressants or other medications or warning signs them that could flag another check. Have a number friends and family and neighbors can call, like they do with child protective services. Just doesn’t seem necessary to do it every year for everyone. I think I’ve provided more than a fair compromise for gun control, demanding more than that will just make gun owners not want to do anything.

Just to put things in perspective, me and my wife are trying to adopt a kid and these are the things that we have to do just to be put on the list. 

have to attend a 8 day training course (8 hours a day)
have to give all my financial info ( have to do this every year that we are waiting)  
have to have 5 home visits from a trained social worker
Have to give a full medication eval (have to give every year)
have to give 5 references to children aid. 
have to attend other training courses as required
after we get our kid, children aid still comes to your house for atleast 6 month

now I have no problem with this and think this is reasonable.  the reason we have to do many of these things every year is because people change.  the reason i believe that people should get mental health backround every year is for the same reason.  

Congrats bud and good luck!  Is this your first kid?

thanks yes our first kid.  also just to get back to the theme of this discussion, i threw out the example of Japan guns laws  just to show how other countries do things, I don't expect every country to follow that example but I do believe that we can take things from what other countries do and apply them for our own country. 

there are many flaws to all cultures, but japanese culture is built on respect of your fellow human being and the collective good. american values are wildly different, for better or worse. they must look at us like we are fucking insane. 

even though japanese culture is ancient compared to north american/european, I find it to be more highly evolved than that of western nations. there are some very conservative and antiquated ideals, but on the whole, I'd take that over how we all treat each other. 

Smellyman

rgambs said:

Smellyman said:

rgambs said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

May I ask, why do people enjoy hunting?
I cannot understand the fun in killing animals for the sake of it.

You might be surprised, many people who think they can't understand it find that they can once they have done it.
We are animals that are biologically programszp to kill.  It isn't so hard to understand why people enjoy it.  You ever go fishing and catch a decent or large fish?

I am vegan and I never liked catching fish.  My dad would take us fishing and I'd say that hurts the fish.  My dad would just say 'fish don't feel pain'.  Which is BS.

When you have the choice to kill or not there is only one choice.

We all only have one turn on this earth humans and all.  I prefer not to snuff out the spark.

Plants are alive too, before you eat them.  They have systems of thought and pain that are very different from ours, but they exist and we don't have all that much more understanding of the mind of a fish than we do those systems in plants.

Death is part of life, it's normal and it's neutral.
Suffering should be a higher concern.

~sigh~

mace1229

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

benjs said:

What about the other parts then? You ignored a lot of reasonable suggestions regarding checks and balances prior to owning a weapon.

In theory I’m for the rest of the ideas. I say in their because I’d be curious about the cost and logistics behind all that. I can’t imagine going down to the DMV once a year for a driving test, takes me half a day to just get my driving record, and that’s just a piece of paper that takes 15 seconds to look up. And I think that’s what makes a lot of people cautious, it’s perfectly reasonable to question how smooth and efficient the government would ha for that. And with the cost of healthcare, what’s the cost of yearly mental-health evaluations and who pays for it? I’m assuming the gun owner, but that wouldn’t fly either if they’re $500 a pop.
i would say start with a one-time mental check and safety course, background check for every purchase, 

why is cost and time a concern when it's an inconvenience to the gun owner (registation, exams, tests) but "we'll find the money" and "I'll drop my kid off at 6am" when it's an inconvenience to everyone else (making schools into fortresses, etc)?

the cost on the regulation side vs the 2A side isn't even close. it's laughable. 

I've never said just drop your kid off at 6 and we'll find the money, so I can't answer that.

I just think unnecessary tests, exams and registration is a waste of time and money. And even more so if ran by the government.

This goes back to my idea of a ban. I have a different definition of a "gun ban" than many. Its come up before, there are some who openly state they don't want gun bans, but will also say they want regulations so tight and expensive that 99% of people can't afford it. Call that what you want, but that's a ban.
I think 1 safety course, 1 mental health exam and registration of all gun sales is a huge leap, that would by far be the biggest restrictions on guns our country has ever done even when compared to strict states like CA and NY. I don't know why anyone would not be happy to hear that many gun owners are willing to agree to that. I also think not accepting that as a fair start is starting to push into that direction that it won't be feasible for most gun owners to maintain, and again leads to zero compromises being made.
I've also said many times I am for magazine limits, requiring a fixed magazine on assault rifles (essentially make them not assault rifles), storage laws and many others.
I truly believe it is because when suggestions are made, there is often so many voices who cry out "that is not enough" that contributes to nothing being done. 
Its just annoying to me when I say I would want ALL of those things, and not one response from th other side of "I'm glad to see gun owners want change too," but the responses are all negative. Saying its not enough, accusing me caring for guns more than children, its gun owners like me that are the problem among many other things. And those comments also come from the same people who accuse gun owners of unwilling to compromise and laugh at those who talk about the slippery slope. You don't see any irony in that?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

my2hands said:

mcgruff10 said:

my2hands said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I completely support the gun owners paying for all those expenses. Why wouldn't that fly? I don't see why it shouldn't be expensive. That doesn't violate anyone's rights assuming you're going by how America operates in general. Hell, it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary.

As long as it is reasonable I have no problem. Hell I pay an extra $15 very time I buy a firearm just for last background check. 

How often do you buy a gun brother?

1-2 a year.
I still can't get over the suggestion of turning in all rifles for air guns lol.  "Mr. Intruder stop!  I have an air gun!  You have been warned."

I'm not an expert but I think a shotgun with buckshot would be more effective than a hunting rifle for home defense?

Absolutely (unless you are defending your home against an army)- more stopping power.

There's a significant degree of hypocrisy evident recently here. People who either eat meat... have leather products in their home... or make use of animal tested products are speaking to how immoral hunting is.

And like it or not... RG's point about vegetation being part of the life cycle is legitimate. Plants do not have a central nervous system, but they seek to live. 

cincybearcat

HughFreakingDillon said:

fife said:

mcgruff10 said:

fife said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I completely support the gun owners paying for all those expenses. Why wouldn't that fly? I don't see why it shouldn't be expensive. That doesn't violate anyone's rights assuming you're going by how America operates in general. Hell, it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary.

There have been many here who claim to not be for a ban, but then say they would be for measures that just make it impractical for the average person to afford one.
i think yearly mental checks and safety courses and everything else would add up very quickly, and if run by the government would no doubt be ineffective and a waste of time. I’ve spent a half day at the DMV just to get a copy of my driving record, how much worse would this process be?
i think a required safety course is reasonable. I think a mental health check is reasonable. I think background checks and registering your gun is reasonable. Doing all that every year will very likely price the average gun owner out of owning guns.
id even be fine with linking your dr visits to the registeation, so if you take antidepressants or other medications or warning signs them that could flag another check. Have a number friends and family and neighbors can call, like they do with child protective services. Just doesn’t seem necessary to do it every year for everyone. I think I’ve provided more than a fair compromise for gun control, demanding more than that will just make gun owners not want to do anything.

Just to put things in perspective, me and my wife are trying to adopt a kid and these are the things that we have to do just to be put on the list. 

have to attend a 8 day training course (8 hours a day)
have to give all my financial info ( have to do this every year that we are waiting)  
have to have 5 home visits from a trained social worker
Have to give a full medication eval (have to give every year)
have to give 5 references to children aid. 
have to attend other training courses as required
after we get our kid, children aid still comes to your house for atleast 6 month

now I have no problem with this and think this is reasonable.  the reason we have to do many of these things every year is because people change.  the reason i believe that people should get mental health backround every year is for the same reason.  

Congrats bud and good luck!  Is this your first kid?

thanks yes our first kid.  also just to get back to the theme of this discussion, i threw out the example of Japan guns laws  just to show how other countries do things, I don't expect every country to follow that example but I do believe that we can take things from what other countries do and apply them for our own country. 

there are many flaws to all cultures, but japanese culture is built on respect of your fellow human being and the collective good. american values are wildly different, for better or worse. they must look at us like we are fucking insane. 

even though japanese culture is ancient compared to north american/european, I find it to be more highly evolved than that of western nations. there are some very conservative and antiquated ideals, but on the whole, I'd take that over how we all treat each other. 

Lots of amazing things about the Japanese culture....but killing yourself when you bring shame and working yourself to suicide is not something I want in my culture!

I sure would love the respect aspect, especially for elders.

HughFreakingDillon

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

fife said:

mcgruff10 said:

fife said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I completely support the gun owners paying for all those expenses. Why wouldn't that fly? I don't see why it shouldn't be expensive. That doesn't violate anyone's rights assuming you're going by how America operates in general. Hell, it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary.

There have been many here who claim to not be for a ban, but then say they would be for measures that just make it impractical for the average person to afford one.
i think yearly mental checks and safety courses and everything else would add up very quickly, and if run by the government would no doubt be ineffective and a waste of time. I’ve spent a half day at the DMV just to get a copy of my driving record, how much worse would this process be?
i think a required safety course is reasonable. I think a mental health check is reasonable. I think background checks and registering your gun is reasonable. Doing all that every year will very likely price the average gun owner out of owning guns.
id even be fine with linking your dr visits to the registeation, so if you take antidepressants or other medications or warning signs them that could flag another check. Have a number friends and family and neighbors can call, like they do with child protective services. Just doesn’t seem necessary to do it every year for everyone. I think I’ve provided more than a fair compromise for gun control, demanding more than that will just make gun owners not want to do anything.

Just to put things in perspective, me and my wife are trying to adopt a kid and these are the things that we have to do just to be put on the list. 

have to attend a 8 day training course (8 hours a day)
have to give all my financial info ( have to do this every year that we are waiting)  
have to have 5 home visits from a trained social worker
Have to give a full medication eval (have to give every year)
have to give 5 references to children aid. 
have to attend other training courses as required
after we get our kid, children aid still comes to your house for atleast 6 month

now I have no problem with this and think this is reasonable.  the reason we have to do many of these things every year is because people change.  the reason i believe that people should get mental health backround every year is for the same reason.  

Congrats bud and good luck!  Is this your first kid?

thanks yes our first kid.  also just to get back to the theme of this discussion, i threw out the example of Japan guns laws  just to show how other countries do things, I don't expect every country to follow that example but I do believe that we can take things from what other countries do and apply them for our own country. 

there are many flaws to all cultures, but japanese culture is built on respect of your fellow human being and the collective good. american values are wildly different, for better or worse. they must look at us like we are fucking insane. 

even though japanese culture is ancient compared to north american/european, I find it to be more highly evolved than that of western nations. there are some very conservative and antiquated ideals, but on the whole, I'd take that over how we all treat each other. 

Lots of amazing things about the Japanese culture....but killing yourself when you bring shame and working yourself to suicide is not something I want in my culture!

I sure would love the respect aspect, especially for elders.

well obviously that's one of the biggest negatives. 

mace1229

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

fife said:

mcgruff10 said:

fife said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I completely support the gun owners paying for all those expenses. Why wouldn't that fly? I don't see why it shouldn't be expensive. That doesn't violate anyone's rights assuming you're going by how America operates in general. Hell, it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary.

There have been many here who claim to not be for a ban, but then say they would be for measures that just make it impractical for the average person to afford one.
i think yearly mental checks and safety courses and everything else would add up very quickly, and if run by the government would no doubt be ineffective and a waste of time. I’ve spent a half day at the DMV just to get a copy of my driving record, how much worse would this process be?
i think a required safety course is reasonable. I think a mental health check is reasonable. I think background checks and registering your gun is reasonable. Doing all that every year will very likely price the average gun owner out of owning guns.
id even be fine with linking your dr visits to the registeation, so if you take antidepressants or other medications or warning signs them that could flag another check. Have a number friends and family and neighbors can call, like they do with child protective services. Just doesn’t seem necessary to do it every year for everyone. I think I’ve provided more than a fair compromise for gun control, demanding more than that will just make gun owners not want to do anything.

Just to put things in perspective, me and my wife are trying to adopt a kid and these are the things that we have to do just to be put on the list. 

have to attend a 8 day training course (8 hours a day)
have to give all my financial info ( have to do this every year that we are waiting)  
have to have 5 home visits from a trained social worker
Have to give a full medication eval (have to give every year)
have to give 5 references to children aid. 
have to attend other training courses as required
after we get our kid, children aid still comes to your house for atleast 6 month

now I have no problem with this and think this is reasonable.  the reason we have to do many of these things every year is because people change.  the reason i believe that people should get mental health backround every year is for the same reason.  

Congrats bud and good luck!  Is this your first kid?

thanks yes our first kid.  also just to get back to the theme of this discussion, i threw out the example of Japan guns laws  just to show how other countries do things, I don't expect every country to follow that example but I do believe that we can take things from what other countries do and apply them for our own country. 

there are many flaws to all cultures, but japanese culture is built on respect of your fellow human being and the collective good. american values are wildly different, for better or worse. they must look at us like we are fucking insane. 

even though japanese culture is ancient compared to north american/european, I find it to be more highly evolved than that of western nations. there are some very conservative and antiquated ideals, but on the whole, I'd take that over how we all treat each other. 

Lots of amazing things about the Japanese culture....but killing yourself when you bring shame and working yourself to suicide is not something I want in my culture!

I sure would love the respect aspect, especially for elders.

Is that still a thing? I thought that died out (no pun intended) a long time ago?

HughFreakingDillon

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

benjs said:

What about the other parts then? You ignored a lot of reasonable suggestions regarding checks and balances prior to owning a weapon.

In theory I’m for the rest of the ideas. I say in their because I’d be curious about the cost and logistics behind all that. I can’t imagine going down to the DMV once a year for a driving test, takes me half a day to just get my driving record, and that’s just a piece of paper that takes 15 seconds to look up. And I think that’s what makes a lot of people cautious, it’s perfectly reasonable to question how smooth and efficient the government would ha for that. And with the cost of healthcare, what’s the cost of yearly mental-health evaluations and who pays for it? I’m assuming the gun owner, but that wouldn’t fly either if they’re $500 a pop.
i would say start with a one-time mental check and safety course, background check for every purchase, 

why is cost and time a concern when it's an inconvenience to the gun owner (registation, exams, tests) but "we'll find the money" and "I'll drop my kid off at 6am" when it's an inconvenience to everyone else (making schools into fortresses, etc)?

the cost on the regulation side vs the 2A side isn't even close. it's laughable. 

I've never said just drop your kid off at 6 and we'll find the money, so I can't answer that.

I just think unnecessary tests, exams and registration is a waste of time and money. And even more so if ran by the government.

This goes back to my idea of a ban. I have a different definition of a "gun ban" than many. Its come up before, there are some who openly state they don't want gun bans, but will also say they want regulations so tight and expensive that 99% of people can't afford it. Call that what you want, but that's a ban.
I think 1 safety course, 1 mental health exam and registration of all gun sales is a huge leap, that would by far be the biggest restrictions on guns our country has ever done even when compared to strict states like CA and NY. I don't know why anyone would not be happy to hear that many gun owners are willing to agree to that. I also think not accepting that as a fair start is starting to push into that direction that it won't be feasible for most gun owners to maintain, and again leads to zero compromises being made.
I've also said many times I am for magazine limits, requiring a fixed magazine on assault rifles (essentially make them not assault rifles), storage laws and many others.
I truly believe it is because when suggestions are made, there is often so many voices who cry out "that is not enough" that contributes to nothing being done. 
Its just annoying to me when I say I would want ALL of those things, and not one response from th other side of "I'm glad to see gun owners want change too," but the responses are all negative. Saying its not enough, accusing me caring for guns more than children, its gun owners like me that are the problem among many other things. And those comments also come from the same people who accuse gun owners of unwilling to compromise and laugh at those who talk about the slippery slope. You don't see any irony in that?

I do see what you are saying in that many things that gun owners are willing to deal compromise on are seen as not enough. as far as I see it, you are in the minority with your suggestions. most of the time we get a "not a chance" from most of the gun crowd with regards to most of your suggestions. or they are willing to one or two, but not what is ultimately required for meaningful change. 

what would I like to see? education at a young age. bullying is a big thing in my kids' school. but not just education dealing with not bullying. but education on dealing with your feelings if/when you are bullied. there will be outcasts in every school. there will be bullies in all walks of life. we need to teach our kids how to deal with this shit without lashing out and mowing down a bunch of innocent people. 

rgambs

Smellyman said:

rgambs said:

Smellyman said:

rgambs said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

May I ask, why do people enjoy hunting?
I cannot understand the fun in killing animals for the sake of it.

You might be surprised, many people who think they can't understand it find that they can once they have done it.
We are animals that are biologically programszp to kill.  It isn't so hard to understand why people enjoy it.  You ever go fishing and catch a decent or large fish?

I am vegan and I never liked catching fish.  My dad would take us fishing and I'd say that hurts the fish.  My dad would just say 'fish don't feel pain'.  Which is BS.

When you have the choice to kill or not there is only one choice.

We all only have one turn on this earth humans and all.  I prefer not to snuff out the spark.

Plants are alive too, before you eat them.  They have systems of thought and pain that are very different from ours, but they exist and we don't have all that much more understanding of the mind of a fish than we do those systems in plants.

Death is part of life, it's normal and it's neutral.
Suffering should be a higher concern.

~sigh~

You can sigh all you want, that doesn't mean the issue is as simple as you want to believe it is.
While it's 1000x times better than eating CAFO meat everyday, a vegan living in a major metro has a much larger carbon footprint and environmental impact than they think.
Just because you don't eat animals, that doesn't mean they don't die so you can eat!

PJ_Soul

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I completely support the gun owners paying for all those expenses. Why wouldn't that fly? I don't see why it shouldn't be expensive. That doesn't violate anyone's rights assuming you're going by how America operates in general. Hell, it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary.

There have been many here who claim to not be for a ban, but then say they would be for measures that just make it impractical for the average person to afford one.
i think yearly mental checks and safety courses and everything else would add up very quickly, and if run by the government would no doubt be ineffective and a waste of time. I’ve spent a half day at the DMV just to get a copy of my driving record, how much worse would this process be?
i think a required safety course is reasonable. I think a mental health check is reasonable. I think background checks and registering your gun is reasonable. Doing all that every year will very likely price the average gun owner out of owning guns.
id even be fine with linking your dr visits to the registeation, so if you take antidepressants or other medications or warning signs them that could flag another check. Have a number friends and family and neighbors can call, like they do with child protective services. Just doesn’t seem necessary to do it every year for everyone. I think I’ve provided more than a fair compromise for gun control, demanding more than that will just make gun owners not want to do anything.

Tons of things are impractical for millions of people in America because they can't afford it, and in many cases it's for things much more dire than someone's desire to pack heat. Why should guns be excluded?

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I completely support the gun owners paying for all those expenses. Why wouldn't that fly? I don't see why it shouldn't be expensive. That doesn't violate anyone's rights assuming you're going by how America operates in general. Hell, it wouldn't even be out of the ordinary.

There have been many here who claim to not be for a ban, but then say they would be for measures that just make it impractical for the average person to afford one.
i think yearly mental checks and safety courses and everything else would add up very quickly, and if run by the government would no doubt be ineffective and a waste of time. I’ve spent a half day at the DMV just to get a copy of my driving record, how much worse would this process be?
i think a required safety course is reasonable. I think a mental health check is reasonable. I think background checks and registering your gun is reasonable. Doing all that every year will very likely price the average gun owner out of owning guns.
id even be fine with linking your dr visits to the registeation, so if you take antidepressants or other medications or warning signs them that could flag another check. Have a number friends and family and neighbors can call, like they do with child protective services. Just doesn’t seem necessary to do it every year for everyone. I think I’ve provided more than a fair compromise for gun control, demanding more than that will just make gun owners not want to do anything.

Tons of things are impractical for millions of people in America because they can't afford it, and in many cases it's for things much more dire than someone's desire to pack heat. Why should guns be excluded?

yeah, I don't get this either. people seem to be inflating "the right to bear arms" to "the right to afford to own one". 

there are millions that probably would love to own one but can't currently afford one. is their 2A rights being infringed upon?

NOPE

Thoughts_Arrive

mcgruff10 said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

May I ask, why do people enjoy hunting?
I cannot understand the fun in killing animals for the sake of it.

Are you a vegan?

No. Why do you ask?
If you're implying I am a hypocrite, I am not saying we shouldn't kill animals for food. But to kill them just to hunt I do not get that.

Thoughts_Arrive

rgambs said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

May I ask, why do people enjoy hunting?
I cannot understand the fun in killing animals for the sake of it.

You might be surprised, many people who think they can't understand it find that they can once they have done it.
We are animals that are biologically programszp to kill.  It isn't so hard to understand why people enjoy it.  You ever go fishing and catch a decent or large fish?

I am not into fishing, it does not interest me.
I could never bring myself to kill an animal.

eddiec

I have no problems with hunters, excluding big game trophy hunters of course.
In fact, I think hunting is much more humane than the current US meat packing industry.