Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

mrussel1

Bentleyspop said:

mrussel1 said:

Bentleyspop said:

Most "pro-lifers" are also pro death penalty.  When you call them on it they usually come back with some biblical reference. But when you tell them about "thou shalt not kill" and that Jesus would grave been anti-death penalty. They have nothing.

Forced birth hypocrites 

That's one thing about hte Pope and the Church.  They have been consistently against both abortions and capital punishment.  The American Protestant faiths, not so much. 

Exactly
And I live in a state with an "orthodox" catholic  governor who loves the death penalty and will try to follow texas with restrictive anti-abortion legislation.

Another forced birth hypocrite 

I assumed you were in Colorado... 

Gern Blansten

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I saw a post on twitter saying that since there is no law against false or frivolous claims in Texas, anyone who knows how to fake their IP address can file a claim online against any republican they wish. 

not that I'd endorse anyone to do that. Just an FYI. 

I saw something circulating on twitter about this.  Instructions on how to use a fake IP address, fake TX address, and then file complaints to bog down their system

File complaints?  If you mean legal complaints, you have to pay court costs when you file otherwise the case won't be docketed.  I don't think that's going to work. 

I don't think it was a legal complaint...more of a tip hotline or something.  But in order to file the complaint you had to be a TX resident or something.

PJPOWER

Meltdown99 said:

The party that claims to want small government, less government control…yada yada yada…wants to control your body.  Abortion illegal, weed illegal yada yada…

Too bad all the females in Texas don’t pack up and leave.

So the irony with that is that there are numerous pro-life groups that are primarily led by women.  And the lower class individuals are the “Cletuses” that you see running their MAGA flags even though they are the ones most affected by this legislation. 

I, for one, think abortions are barbaric, but absolutely needed in some situations.  That’s my personal stance.  That being said, I’m hands off as far as abortion policy goes because it truly isn’t something that effects me in any way whatsoever.  I am not a woman and would never be a rape victim worrying about what to do with a rapist’s baby.  It really is not an issue that guides my vote for the most part.

I am, however, a limited government person like you speak of and am not a fan of the government meddling in medical treatment issues that should be decided on solely between doctors and patients.  That very well will effect my voting.

HughFreakingDillon

PJPOWER said:

Meltdown99 said:

The party that claims to want small government, less government control…yada yada yada…wants to control your body.  Abortion illegal, weed illegal yada yada…

Too bad all the females in Texas don’t pack up and leave.

So the irony with that is that there are numerous pro-life groups that are primarily led by women.  And the lower class individuals are the “Cletuses” that you see running their MAGA flags even though they are the ones most affected by this legislation. 

I, for one, think abortions are barbaric, but absolutely needed in some situations.  That’s my personal stance.  That being said, I’m hands off as far as abortion policy goes because it truly isn’t something that effects me in any way whatsoever.  I am not a woman and would never be a rape victim worrying about what to do with a rapist’s baby.  

I am, however, a limited government person like you speak of and am not a fan of the government meddling in medical treatment issues that should be decided on solely between doctors and patients.  

women's health care affects all of us, actually. economically, socially, etc. 

PJPOWER

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

Meltdown99 said:

The party that claims to want small government, less government control…yada yada yada…wants to control your body.  Abortion illegal, weed illegal yada yada…

Too bad all the females in Texas don’t pack up and leave.

So the irony with that is that there are numerous pro-life groups that are primarily led by women.  And the lower class individuals are the “Cletuses” that you see running their MAGA flags even though they are the ones most affected by this legislation. 

I, for one, think abortions are barbaric, but absolutely needed in some situations.  That’s my personal stance.  That being said, I’m hands off as far as abortion policy goes because it truly isn’t something that effects me in any way whatsoever.  I am not a woman and would never be a rape victim worrying about what to do with a rapist’s baby.  

I am, however, a limited government person like you speak of and am not a fan of the government meddling in medical treatment issues that should be decided on solely between doctors and patients.  

women's health care affects all of us, actually. economically, socially, etc. 

Not sure what type of straw man you are trying to create, but I agree with that.  I just don’t think I, as a man, should make or decide on policy surround gynecology/pregnancy related needs.  My vote is more guided by limiting government interference…which is a category that no Democrat or Republican fits nicely into these days.
In other words, I do not agree with this heartbeat law in the respect that I feel it is government overstepping its ideal reach.

HughFreakingDillon

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

Meltdown99 said:

The party that claims to want small government, less government control…yada yada yada…wants to control your body.  Abortion illegal, weed illegal yada yada…

Too bad all the females in Texas don’t pack up and leave.

So the irony with that is that there are numerous pro-life groups that are primarily led by women.  And the lower class individuals are the “Cletuses” that you see running their MAGA flags even though they are the ones most affected by this legislation. 

I, for one, think abortions are barbaric, but absolutely needed in some situations.  That’s my personal stance.  That being said, I’m hands off as far as abortion policy goes because it truly isn’t something that effects me in any way whatsoever.  I am not a woman and would never be a rape victim worrying about what to do with a rapist’s baby.  

I am, however, a limited government person like you speak of and am not a fan of the government meddling in medical treatment issues that should be decided on solely between doctors and patients.  

women's health care affects all of us, actually. economically, socially, etc. 

Not sure what type of straw man you are trying to create, but I agree with that.  I just don’t think I, as a man, should make or decide on policy surround gynecology/pregnancy related needs.  My vote is more guided by limiting government interference…which is a category that no Democrat or Republican fits nicely into these days.

no straw man. if a woman can't access the health care she needs, more poverty, more potential crime, more funds needed to allocate to these issues, which comes from your tax dollars, etc etc. 

PJPOWER

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

Meltdown99 said:

The party that claims to want small government, less government control…yada yada yada…wants to control your body.  Abortion illegal, weed illegal yada yada…

Too bad all the females in Texas don’t pack up and leave.

So the irony with that is that there are numerous pro-life groups that are primarily led by women.  And the lower class individuals are the “Cletuses” that you see running their MAGA flags even though they are the ones most affected by this legislation. 

I, for one, think abortions are barbaric, but absolutely needed in some situations.  That’s my personal stance.  That being said, I’m hands off as far as abortion policy goes because it truly isn’t something that effects me in any way whatsoever.  I am not a woman and would never be a rape victim worrying about what to do with a rapist’s baby.  

I am, however, a limited government person like you speak of and am not a fan of the government meddling in medical treatment issues that should be decided on solely between doctors and patients.  

women's health care affects all of us, actually. economically, socially, etc. 

Not sure what type of straw man you are trying to create, but I agree with that.  I just don’t think I, as a man, should make or decide on policy surround gynecology/pregnancy related needs.  My vote is more guided by limiting government interference…which is a category that no Democrat or Republican fits nicely into these days.

no straw man. if a woman can't access the health care she needs, more poverty, more potential crime, more funds needed to allocate to these issues, which comes from your tax dollars, etc etc. 

Which, as I said, government should not interfere with decisions about “needed” healthcare that should be solely between doctor and patient…Am I missing something?  I am not the person to decide whether or not abortion is something a particular woman needs in the realm of healthcare, and neither is the government.
Looking back, maybe I should have said abortion “decisions” instead of “policy” in my initial comment…

HughFreakingDillon

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

Meltdown99 said:

The party that claims to want small government, less government control…yada yada yada…wants to control your body.  Abortion illegal, weed illegal yada yada…

Too bad all the females in Texas don’t pack up and leave.

So the irony with that is that there are numerous pro-life groups that are primarily led by women.  And the lower class individuals are the “Cletuses” that you see running their MAGA flags even though they are the ones most affected by this legislation. 

I, for one, think abortions are barbaric, but absolutely needed in some situations.  That’s my personal stance.  That being said, I’m hands off as far as abortion policy goes because it truly isn’t something that effects me in any way whatsoever.  I am not a woman and would never be a rape victim worrying about what to do with a rapist’s baby.  

I am, however, a limited government person like you speak of and am not a fan of the government meddling in medical treatment issues that should be decided on solely between doctors and patients.  

women's health care affects all of us, actually. economically, socially, etc. 

Not sure what type of straw man you are trying to create, but I agree with that.  I just don’t think I, as a man, should make or decide on policy surround gynecology/pregnancy related needs.  My vote is more guided by limiting government interference…which is a category that no Democrat or Republican fits nicely into these days.

no straw man. if a woman can't access the health care she needs, more poverty, more potential crime, more funds needed to allocate to these issues, which comes from your tax dollars, etc etc. 

Which, as I said, government should not interfere with decisions about “needed” healthcare that should be solely between doctor and patient…Am I missing something?  I am not the person to decide whether or not abortion is something a particular woman needs in the realm of healthcare, and neither is the government.
Looking back, maybe I should have said abortion “decisions” instead of “policy” in my initial comment…

I was just responding to you saying it doesn't affect you, which it does. that was all. maybe you meant something different by "affect me". I wasn't trying to be argumentative, just pointing out the ripple effect of this in society as a whole, that's all. 

Halifax2TheMax

Maybe this is what its really about in Tejas? Sounds "pro-life" to me.

The US has the highest maternal death rate among similarly developed countries and is the only industrialized nation where such deaths are rising. But according to data from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in Texas the maternal mortality rate is above the US average, at 18.5 deaths per 100,000 live births.

Black women in the state are “disproportionately” affected, accounting for 11% of live births but 31% of maternal deaths. Wide racial and ethnic disparities exist nationally too.

The Texas legislature is comprised mostly of white males: 61% of lawmakers in the House and Senate are white, even though white Texans make up just 41% of the population. Women are vastly outnumbered by men.

“Black women are dying at an alarming rate for reasons that could be prevented and our state leaders cut down the main proposal that a state-appointed committee recommended to help them – why would that even happen?” said Jones. “I think it’s because it’s so easy to dismiss Black women’s lives.”

The legislature expended time and energy on restricting abortion access, including passing one of the most extreme bans in the country, which allows any citizen to sue an abortion provider, as well as a “trigger” bill that bans the procedure in the event Roe v Wade, the 1973 ruling which safeguards the right to abortion, is overturned by the US supreme court.

A recent study in the medical journal Contraception showed a correlation between high maternal mortality rates and states that pass abortion barriers.

“We have a maternal health crisis and conservative legislators once again made anti-choice bills a priority,” said Thierry. “They fail to realize all the women threatened by maternal deaths are obviously choosing life – they shouldn’t have to do so in exchange for their own.”

Lawmakers made no significant gains for Medicaid in general. Texas is home to the highest number of uninsured residents in the US as well as the highest percentage of uninsured women of childbearing age, but it has declined to expand Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act and Republicans blocked legislative efforts to help extend healthcare coverage for the working poor.

Texas has one of the steepest Medicaid eligibility requirements in the US. Of 1.4 million Texans who would benefit from expanded Medicaid, 75% are people of color.

“Once again, we are kicking the can down the road with many of these solutions,” said Thierry. “It’s absolutely imperative we continue to work on reducing maternal mortality. One death is too many, especially when it’s preventable.”

‘It’s easy to dismiss Black women’s lives’: Texas drags feet on maternal mortality crisis | Texas | The Guardian

Kat

The discussion after this tweet is interesting. Sharing here. 

https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/1433556727228555266

Gern Blansten

Kat said:

The discussion after this tweet is interesting. Sharing here. 

https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/1433556727228555266

I saw a blurb about this also....really odd

Kat

It means they know it's not good for them. Like someone in the comments said about what does the dog do once it catches the car?

Halifax2TheMax

Kat said:

It means they know it's not good for them. Like someone in the comments said about what does the dog do once it catches the car?

They build and expand on it in other red states, first, before they eventually come for the blue states. The only way it ends is via elections and we know where their/there/they’re already going their/there/they’re. It’s regression, baby!

curmudgeoness

Kat said:

It means they know it's not good for them. Like someone in the comments said about what does the dog do once it catches the car?

David Frum has, again, an interesting take on this. For years, "pro-life" politicians could posture about the evils of abortion and use the topic for fundraising. But everyone assumed most of them were self-serving hypocrites. Actually outlawing abortion runs the risk of mobilizing the pro-choice groups -- Democrats being less likely to vote in midterms, historically -- which could cause this scheme to blow up int he GOP's face. This, says Frum, is why they took steps to suppress voting first.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/texas-republicans-abortion-ban-backfire/619956/ 

<<But it’s also possible that Texas Republicans have miscalculated. Instead of narrowly failing again and again, feeding the rage of their supporters against shadowy and far-away cultural enemies, abortion restricters have finally, actually, and radically got their way. They have all but outlawed abortion in the nation’s second-largest state, and voted to subject women to an intrusive and intimate regime of supervision and control not imposed on men. At last, a Republican legislative majority has enacted its declared beliefs in almost their fullest form—and won permission from the courts to impose its will on the women of its state.>>

<<In the off-year elections of 2014, Republicans won a huge victory. In 2018, they suffered a huge defeat. The crucial difference was turnout: 2014 saw the lowest turnout since 1942; 2018 saw the highest in a nonpresidential year since before World War I. The moral of the story would seem to be that Republicans do best when the electorate is satisfied and quiet; they face disaster when the electorate is mobilized and angry. Texas Republicans have just bet their political future in a rapidly diversifying and urbanizing state on a gambit: cultural reaction plus voter suppression. The eyes of Texas will be upon them indeed. The eyes of the nation will be upon them too.>>

Halifax2TheMax

curmudgeoness said:

Kat said:

It means they know it's not good for them. Like someone in the comments said about what does the dog do once it catches the car?

David Frum has, again, an interesting take on this. For years, "pro-life" politicians could posture about the evils of abortion and use the topic for fundraising. But everyone assumed most of them were self-serving hypocrites. Actually outlawing abortion runs the risk of mobilizing the pro-choice groups -- Democrats being less likely to vote in midterms, historically -- which could cause this scheme to blow up int he GOP's face. This, says Frum, is why they took steps to suppress voting first.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/texas-republicans-abortion-ban-backfire/619956/ 

<<But it’s also possible that Texas Republicans have miscalculated. Instead of narrowly failing again and again, feeding the rage of their supporters against shadowy and far-away cultural enemies, abortion restricters have finally, actually, and radically got their way. They have all but outlawed abortion in the nation’s second-largest state, and voted to subject women to an intrusive and intimate regime of supervision and control not imposed on men. At last, a Republican legislative majority has enacted its declared beliefs in almost their fullest form—and won permission from the courts to impose its will on the women of its state.>>

<<In the off-year elections of 2014, Republicans won a huge victory. In 2018, they suffered a huge defeat. The crucial difference was turnout: 2014 saw the lowest turnout since 1942; 2018 saw the highest in a nonpresidential year since before World War I. The moral of the story would seem to be that Republicans do best when the electorate is satisfied and quiet; they face disaster when the electorate is mobilized and angry. Texas Republicans have just bet their political future in a rapidly diversifying and urbanizing state on a gambit: cultural reaction plus voter suppression. The eyes of Texas will be upon them indeed. The eyes of the nation will be upon them too.>>

And there will be a dearth of voting machines and an excess of voter vigilantes at voting centers in dem districts resulting in long lines, intimidation and conflict. Let’s not forget the purge of the voting rolls.

We’re watching fascism unfold in slow motion and Tejas is leading the way.

curmudgeoness

Anyway: Although I'm at an age where this horseshit no longer directly affects me, it absolutely did affect me directly, with both of my pregnancies. While I doubt that I'll ever be "pro-abortion," I'll always be vigorously "pro-choice," because, twice, I had to make a choice, and it was my choice and mine alone, with all due respect to my supportive and awesome husband.  There's a long story behind all of this that I won't share here. Our children are awesome, and I've always been absolutely certain that I made the right choice; I'm prone to overthink and analyze everything, and in both cases I never had the slightest doubt about my decisions. But they were my decisions to make, and the idea that anyone else should have had control over what happened is absolutely galling to me.

brianlux

curmudgeoness said:

Anyway: Although I'm at an age where this horseshit no longer directly affects me, it absolutely did affect me directly, with both of my pregnancies. While I doubt that I'll ever be "pro-abortion," I'll always be vigorously "pro-choice," because, twice, I had to make a choice, and it was my choice and mine alone, with all due respect to my supportive and awesome husband.  There's a long story behind all of this that I won't share here. Our children are awesome, and I've always been absolutely certain that I made the right choice; I'm prone to overthink and analyze everything, and in both cases I never had the slightest doubt about my decisions. But they were my decisions to make, and the idea that anyone else should have had control over what happened is absolutely galling to me.

Right on, curmugeoness, that's the way it should be.

gimmesometruth27

mrussel1 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

questions for christian members of the gop.

what did jesus say about abortion?

since your entire party has based their politics on abortion the last 60 years, what did jesus specifically say about ending a pregnancy?

Thou shall not kill.  It's that simple to them.  And if life begins at conception, then it is killing.  There's no Christian argument that supports abortion. 

did jesus actually say that? i know it was in the old testament and one of the 10 commandments, but did jesus talk about it?

gimmesometruth27

Gern Blansten said:

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I saw a post on twitter saying that since there is no law against false or frivolous claims in Texas, anyone who knows how to fake their IP address can file a claim online against any republican they wish. 

not that I'd endorse anyone to do that. Just an FYI. 

I saw something circulating on twitter about this.  Instructions on how to use a fake IP address, fake TX address, and then file complaints to bog down their system

File complaints?  If you mean legal complaints, you have to pay court costs when you file otherwise the case won't be docketed.  I don't think that's going to work. 

I don't think it was a legal complaint...more of a tip hotline or something.  But in order to file the complaint you had to be a TX resident or something.

i skimmed over an article that said texas has a law against frivolous lawsuits and for someone to file a suit they have to have legal standing. the author feels that a lot of the complaints the plaintiff will not have legal standing and these kinds of cases will get laughed out of court.

the courts are going to get clogged with this kind of bullshit cases.

gimmesometruth27

my thing is, how can someone that is not the actual woman that had the abortion get ratted out? Isn't it illegal to advertise someone's health and medical history/records? this has to be against hipaa.