Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
A lot of that polling you have to look into the data a bit. If 54% of women are pro choice for example it looks pretty even. However when asked should Roe be overturned it’s 2/3 say or 66% say no.
There are pro life people and pro choice people… there are also a lot of people who are against abortion morally but who also don’t want the government deciding that question so capturing the pro choice light crowd is harder to capture
My wife is one. She would never ever have an abortion under any circumstance and is morally opposed to it. She also doesn’t want her views forced on others. I consider her pro choice, she considers herself pro life. When your personal views are separate from the legal argument a lot of people self identify with their personal view
If you look at the makeup of a lot of these statehouses it’s still overwhelmingly men. That’s where these laws are passed. Same can be said for all the anti gay laws. It’s not like there is a lot of gay lawmakers voting for this stuff
The only poll that matters was the one taken in Nov 2016. Black women overwhelmingly voted for Hilary, just like they normally do, but white women did not.
Women literally voted for this current court. With one seat empty on the court at that time there were zero excuses, they did not support Choice when it mattered most.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
A lot of that polling you have to look into the data a bit. If 54% of women are pro choice for example it looks pretty even. However when asked should Roe be overturned it’s 2/3 say or 66% say no.
There are pro life people and pro choice people… there are also a lot of people who are against abortion morally but who also don’t want the government deciding that question so capturing the pro choice light crowd is harder to capture
My wife is one. She would never ever have an abortion under any circumstance and is morally opposed to it. She also doesn’t want her views forced on others. I consider her pro choice, she considers herself pro life. When your personal views are separate from the legal argument a lot of people self identify with their personal view
If you look at the makeup of a lot of these statehouses it’s still overwhelmingly men. That’s where these laws are passed. Same can be said for all the anti gay laws. It’s not like there is a lot of gay lawmakers voting for this stuff
The only poll that matters was the one taken in Nov 2016. Black women overwhelmingly voted for Hilary, just like they normally do, but white women did not.
Women literally voted for this current court. With one seat empty on the court at that time there were zero excuses, they did not support Choice when it mattered most.
I don’t disagree.
The hold your nose and vote for trump vote was real even if the consequences weren’t fully known. 3 justices in 4 years (even though one was already known) was pretty shocking to a lot of people.
I held my nose and voted for Hillary because of that. Both candidates were terrible and I really don’t think a lot of those swing votes factored all that in
Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?
Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?
Same people who thought/think those other things won't ever be considered likely thought Roe would never have been overturned a few years ago too. People need to open their eyes. This party is trying to take us back to the fucking stone age.
Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?
I said all forms would never be banned. I figured some would be. Surprised it’s this quick though.
Never ever underestimate the hard right to push through what objectively is pretty extreme legislation.
the will go absolutely as far as they can, if they can’t they will change the rules and try again.
Fundamentally that’s the problem with the GOP in particular. They are far more likely to support other members out of loyalty and that’s exactly how extreme laws get passed. Democrats are all over the map on every issue. Republicans are pretty much united.
what is also going to happen is police investigations of miscarriages… if a possible “crime” has been committed women will go through all kinds of additional trauma over an event that they are already devastated by. Miscarriages can’t not be investigated as it’s now a suspicious death. If you have a miscarriage at home you are going to have to report it, obviously
Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?
Same people who thought/think those other things won't ever be considered likely thought Roe would never have been overturned a few years ago too. People need to open their eyes. This party is trying to take us back to the fucking stone age.
Yup.
People who said Roe V Wade was on the ballot in 2016 & 2018 were called alarmist, and yet here we are.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
No, when people say that it's because the lawmakers that are pushing these bills are overwhelmingly men. The R party is the one that is pro life and it's lawmaker makeup is not 50/50, which would be the population split.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
I didn't say that mace. What I said was to encourage men to stand up for women's rights. They are the ones who may be denied the right to their bodies, not us men. That simple. I never said it was men taking away women's rights.
HOWEVER... lets see who will make the final judgement- men and women equally?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
I didn't say that mace. What I said was to encourage men to stand up for women's rights. They are the ones who may be denied the right to their bodies, not us men. That simple. I never said it was men taking away women's rights.
HOWEVER... lets see who will make the final judgement- men and women equally?
Not to mention that all but 1 of these people who'll potentially vote to overturn it was nominated by a president who did not receive the most votes in their respective election.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
No, when people say that it's because the lawmakers that are pushing these bills are overwhelmingly men. The R party is the one that is pro life and it's lawmaker makeup is not 50/50, which would be the population split.
I was referring to the general population. Depending on the qualifiers, it’s not far from a 50/50 gender split on abortion views. If nearly half the people voting these guys in office are women and support the laws, I don’t see how it’s men trying to control women. No elected party is a 50/50 split.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
I didn't say that mace. What I said was to encourage men to stand up for women's rights. They are the ones who may be denied the right to their bodies, not us men. That simple. I never said it was men taking away women's rights.
HOWEVER... lets see who will make the final judgement- men and women equally?
Not to mention that all but 1 of these people who'll potentially vote to overturn it was nominated by a president who did not receive the most votes in their respective election.
Welcome to Minority Rule.
Exactly! And this is why it is so important for the majority to get off our butts and speak out, write and call our representatives, and advocate for better education. And vote for candidates who are not pro-authoritarian!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
I didn't say that mace. What I said was to encourage men to stand up for women's rights. They are the ones who may be denied the right to their bodies, not us men. That simple. I never said it was men taking away women's rights.
HOWEVER... lets see who will make the final judgement- men and women equally?
Not to mention that all but 1 of these people who'll potentially vote to overturn it was nominated by a president who did not receive the most votes in their respective election.
Welcome to Minority Rule.
I wasn’t aware that presidential elections were determined based on popular vote. Campaigns would be a lot different if they knew they had to get more votes out of CA and NY.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
I didn't say that mace. What I said was to encourage men to stand up for women's rights. They are the ones who may be denied the right to their bodies, not us men. That simple. I never said it was men taking away women's rights.
HOWEVER... lets see who will make the final judgement- men and women equally?
Not to mention that all but 1 of these people who'll potentially vote to overturn it was nominated by a president who did not receive the most votes in their respective election.
Welcome to Minority Rule.
I wasn’t aware that presidential elections were determined based on popular vote. Campaigns would be a lot different if they knew they had to get more votes out of CA and NY.
It’s inherently a problem though as is anything that gives extra power to a smaller group of a population
California can be 99% pro choice and they only get two senators. You could have 10 states that are split 40/60 favouring pro life and they get 20 senators. Population is the same. The house of reps doesn’t solve that because without the senate you can’t do anything anyway. The filibuster further increases the power of minority rule
same concept in an extreme but mathematical possibility of a presidential election. A candidate could lose the popular vote by 10,20,30 million votes and still be the president.
It is what it is, but there is no doubt it’s set up to create the conditions for extremely unpopular positions to become law. If government doesn’t have the consent of the governed that’s how revolutions start. Just look how militant some groups get when their view isn’t even the majority view, just imagine what happens when it’s now 60 percent of the population
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
No, when people say that it's because the lawmakers that are pushing these bills are overwhelmingly men. The R party is the one that is pro life and it's lawmaker makeup is not 50/50, which would be the population split.
I was referring to the general population. Depending on the qualifiers, it’s not far from a 50/50 gender split on abortion views. If nearly half the people voting these guys in office are women and support the laws, I don’t see how it’s men trying to control women. No elected party is a 50/50 split.
Then I don't understand the usage of the phrase in that context. I've never heard it said that it's men controlling women, when it comes to the population. That phrase is used (to my knowledge) as legislators that are overwhelmingly men making these laws.
And btw, the vote in this country isn't split 50/50 men and women for R and D. Women lean/vote D at a 56-38%. Men vote/lean R at 50-42%
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
I didn't say that mace. What I said was to encourage men to stand up for women's rights. They are the ones who may be denied the right to their bodies, not us men. That simple. I never said it was men taking away women's rights.
HOWEVER... lets see who will make the final judgement- men and women equally?
Not to mention that all but 1 of these people who'll potentially vote to overturn it was nominated by a president who did not receive the most votes in their respective election.
Welcome to Minority Rule.
I wasn’t aware that presidential elections were determined based on popular vote. Campaigns would be a lot different if they knew they had to get more votes out of CA and NY.
It’s inherently a problem though as is anything that gives extra power to a smaller group of a population
California can be 99% pro choice and they only get two senators. You could have 10 states that are split 40/60 favouring pro life and they get 20 senators. Population is the same. The house of reps doesn’t solve that because without the senate you can’t do anything anyway. The filibuster further increases the power of minority rule
same concept in an extreme but mathematical possibility of a presidential election. A candidate could lose the popular vote by 10,20,30 million votes and still be the president.
It is what it is, but there is no doubt it’s set up to create the conditions for extremely unpopular positions to become law. If government doesn’t have the consent of the governed that’s how revolutions start. Just look how militant some groups get when their view isn’t even the majority view, just imagine what happens when it’s now 60 percent of the population
I love how republicans only think CA and NY would be different. lol. You don't think a Democrat would spend a whole lot more time and resources in Texas or some other red state? Such nonsense.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
No, when people say that it's because the lawmakers that are pushing these bills are overwhelmingly men. The R party is the one that is pro life and it's lawmaker makeup is not 50/50, which would be the population split.
I was referring to the general population. Depending on the qualifiers, it’s not far from a 50/50 gender split on abortion views. If nearly half the people voting these guys in office are women and support the laws, I don’t see how it’s men trying to control women. No elected party is a 50/50 split.
Then I don't understand the usage of the phrase in that context. I've never heard it said that it's men controlling women, when it comes to the population. That phrase is used (to my knowledge) as legislators that are overwhelmingly men making these laws.
And btw, the vote in this country isn't split 50/50 men and women for R and D. Women lean/vote D at a 56-38%. Men vote/lean R at 50-42%
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
I didn't say that mace. What I said was to encourage men to stand up for women's rights. They are the ones who may be denied the right to their bodies, not us men. That simple. I never said it was men taking away women's rights.
HOWEVER... lets see who will make the final judgement- men and women equally?
Not to mention that all but 1 of these people who'll potentially vote to overturn it was nominated by a president who did not receive the most votes in their respective election.
Welcome to Minority Rule.
I wasn’t aware that presidential elections were determined based on popular vote. Campaigns would be a lot different if they knew they had to get more votes out of CA and NY.
It’s inherently a problem though as is anything that gives extra power to a smaller group of a population
California can be 99% pro choice and they only get two senators. You could have 10 states that are split 40/60 favouring pro life and they get 20 senators. Population is the same. The house of reps doesn’t solve that because without the senate you can’t do anything anyway. The filibuster further increases the power of minority rule
same concept in an extreme but mathematical possibility of a presidential election. A candidate could lose the popular vote by 10,20,30 million votes and still be the president.
It is what it is, but there is no doubt it’s set up to create the conditions for extremely unpopular positions to become law. If government doesn’t have the consent of the governed that’s how revolutions start. Just look how militant some groups get when their view isn’t even the majority view, just imagine what happens when it’s now 60 percent of the population
I love how republicans only think CA and NY would be different. lol. You don't think a Democrat would spend a whole lot more time and resources in Texas or some other red state? Such nonsense.
Texas was less than a 6 point split in the last presidential election. It’s way, way closer than the policies of Texas would indicate
thats 5.2 million democrats that even bothered to vote who live in a state with the Texas abortion law
population largely in the middle on the whole, laws coming way from the right
florida is another. Their hard right shift politically isn’t in proportion to the voter base. It was even closer
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
No, when people say that it's because the lawmakers that are pushing these bills are overwhelmingly men. The R party is the one that is pro life and it's lawmaker makeup is not 50/50, which would be the population split.
I was referring to the general population. Depending on the qualifiers, it’s not far from a 50/50 gender split on abortion views. If nearly half the people voting these guys in office are women and support the laws, I don’t see how it’s men trying to control women. No elected party is a 50/50 split.
Then I don't understand the usage of the phrase in that context. I've never heard it said that it's men controlling women, when it comes to the population. That phrase is used (to my knowledge) as legislators that are overwhelmingly men making these laws.
And btw, the vote in this country isn't split 50/50 men and women for R and D. Women lean/vote D at a 56-38%. Men vote/lean R at 50-42%
You were referring to the elected leaders as not being a 50/50 split. At least I thought you were. That has never been the case for any party. So why mention just republicans as it being an issue for?
That’s probably the single biggest pro-choice argument, that they don’t want men to control women’s bodies. Yes, majority of republicans making said laws are men. But they were voted in and are supported by a lot of women. And polls that generally ban abortions but allow for certain exceptions are fairly close to a 50/50 gender split. Therefore I don’t see calling abortion laws as men trying to control a women’s body as accurate. If that were the case then women wouldn’t make up a significant portion of the pro-life movement. It really just comes down to does the rights of the unborn child supersede that of the mother, or do the mother’s rights supersede the unborn baby? Not if you believe in old white guys then you’re against abortion. Every single person I’ve ever had a genuine conversation about this topic with it has come down to that.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
No, when people say that it's because the lawmakers that are pushing these bills are overwhelmingly men. The R party is the one that is pro life and it's lawmaker makeup is not 50/50, which would be the population split.
I was referring to the general population. Depending on the qualifiers, it’s not far from a 50/50 gender split on abortion views. If nearly half the people voting these guys in office are women and support the laws, I don’t see how it’s men trying to control women. No elected party is a 50/50 split.
Then I don't understand the usage of the phrase in that context. I've never heard it said that it's men controlling women, when it comes to the population. That phrase is used (to my knowledge) as legislators that are overwhelmingly men making these laws.
And btw, the vote in this country isn't split 50/50 men and women for R and D. Women lean/vote D at a 56-38%. Men vote/lean R at 50-42%
You were referring to the elected leaders as not being a 50/50 split. At least I thought you were. That has never been the case for any party. So why mention just republicans as it being an issue for?
That’s probably the single biggest pro-choice argument, that they don’t want men to control women’s bodies. Yes, majority of republicans making said laws are men. But they were voted in and are supported by a lot of women. And polls that generally ban abortions but allow for certain exceptions are fairly close to a 50/50 gender split. Therefore I don’t see calling abortion laws as men trying to control a women’s body as accurate. If that were the case then women wouldn’t make up a significant portion of the pro-life movement. It really just comes down to does the rights of the unborn child supersede that of the mother, or do the mother’s rights supersede the unborn baby? Not if you believe in old white guys then you’re against abortion. Every single person I’ve ever had a genuine conversation about this topic with it has come down to that.
Look at the states passing the laws, then look at the republican party legislative bodies in those states. You will see them as overwhelmingly male. That's the point of the statement around men passing these laws. You can't just look at the country as a whole and say, look there are just as many women serving office so it must not be men driving these laws. Well these laws aren't across the country, they are in certain states.
No offense Mace, but you're kind of picking some strange arguments here the last few days.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
No, when people say that it's because the lawmakers that are pushing these bills are overwhelmingly men. The R party is the one that is pro life and it's lawmaker makeup is not 50/50, which would be the population split.
I was referring to the general population. Depending on the qualifiers, it’s not far from a 50/50 gender split on abortion views. If nearly half the people voting these guys in office are women and support the laws, I don’t see how it’s men trying to control women. No elected party is a 50/50 split.
Then I don't understand the usage of the phrase in that context. I've never heard it said that it's men controlling women, when it comes to the population. That phrase is used (to my knowledge) as legislators that are overwhelmingly men making these laws.
And btw, the vote in this country isn't split 50/50 men and women for R and D. Women lean/vote D at a 56-38%. Men vote/lean R at 50-42%
You were referring to the elected leaders as not being a 50/50 split. At least I thought you were. That has never been the case for any party. So why mention just republicans as it being an issue for?
That’s probably the single biggest pro-choice argument, that they don’t want men to control women’s bodies. Yes, majority of republicans making said laws are men. But they were voted in and are supported by a lot of women. And polls that generally ban abortions but allow for certain exceptions are fairly close to a 50/50 gender split. Therefore I don’t see calling abortion laws as men trying to control a women’s body as accurate. If that were the case then women wouldn’t make up a significant portion of the pro-life movement. It really just comes down to does the rights of the unborn child supersede that of the mother, or do the mother’s rights supersede the unborn baby? Not if you believe in old white guys then you’re against abortion. Every single person I’ve ever had a genuine conversation about this topic with it has come down to that.
Look at the states passing the laws, then look at the republican party legislative bodies in those states. You will see them as overwhelmingly male. That's the point of the statement around men passing these laws. You can't just look at the country as a whole and say, look there are just as many women serving office so it must not be men driving these laws. Well these laws aren't across the country, they are in certain states.
No offense Mace, but you're kind of picking some strange arguments here the last few days.
It also ignores the obvious.
It is an issue to a large extent because it concerns women. If men got pregnant there is absolutely no way abortion restrictions get any traction. All these issues become issues because there are people pushing the issue. More often than not it’s coordinated to achieve a political end. If republicans didn’t make abortion an issue than significantly less republicans would be pro life. It’s as simple as that
it’s an abstract argument obviously, but it’s true. Male lawmakers aren’t passing restrictions that have anything to do with negativity affecting their autonomy over themselves
The idea that people organically are that aggressively pro life is absurd. Their churches, advocacy groups, and politicians shape their views. 100%. Don’t want an abortion? Don’t get one. That’s a pretty Republican position on most issues (don’t want a vaccine, don’t get one). If they wanted to repackage the message they could.
The southern Baptist convention was officially pro choice until the 1980’s they even were known to take out full page ads in newspapers affirming the right to an abortion. Case in point of how churches shape the views of their followers. I don’t know a single southern Baptist today that’s pro choice and neither is the church. Church switches sides and so do the followers.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
No, when people say that it's because the lawmakers that are pushing these bills are overwhelmingly men. The R party is the one that is pro life and it's lawmaker makeup is not 50/50, which would be the population split.
I was referring to the general population. Depending on the qualifiers, it’s not far from a 50/50 gender split on abortion views. If nearly half the people voting these guys in office are women and support the laws, I don’t see how it’s men trying to control women. No elected party is a 50/50 split.
Then I don't understand the usage of the phrase in that context. I've never heard it said that it's men controlling women, when it comes to the population. That phrase is used (to my knowledge) as legislators that are overwhelmingly men making these laws.
And btw, the vote in this country isn't split 50/50 men and women for R and D. Women lean/vote D at a 56-38%. Men vote/lean R at 50-42%
You were referring to the elected leaders as not being a 50/50 split. At least I thought you were. That has never been the case for any party. So why mention just republicans as it being an issue for?
That’s probably the single biggest pro-choice argument, that they don’t want men to control women’s bodies. Yes, majority of republicans making said laws are men. But they were voted in and are supported by a lot of women. And polls that generally ban abortions but allow for certain exceptions are fairly close to a 50/50 gender split. Therefore I don’t see calling abortion laws as men trying to control a women’s body as accurate. If that were the case then women wouldn’t make up a significant portion of the pro-life movement. It really just comes down to does the rights of the unborn child supersede that of the mother, or do the mother’s rights supersede the unborn baby? Not if you believe in old white guys then you’re against abortion. Every single person I’ve ever had a genuine conversation about this topic with it has come down to that.
Look at the states passing the laws, then look at the republican party legislative bodies in those states. You will see them as overwhelmingly male. That's the point of the statement around men passing these laws. You can't just look at the country as a whole and say, look there are just as many women serving office so it must not be men driving these laws. Well these laws aren't across the country, they are in certain states.
No offense Mace, but you're kind of picking some strange arguments here the last few days.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
No, when people say that it's because the lawmakers that are pushing these bills are overwhelmingly men. The R party is the one that is pro life and it's lawmaker makeup is not 50/50, which would be the population split.
I was referring to the general population. Depending on the qualifiers, it’s not far from a 50/50 gender split on abortion views. If nearly half the people voting these guys in office are women and support the laws, I don’t see how it’s men trying to control women. No elected party is a 50/50 split.
Then I don't understand the usage of the phrase in that context. I've never heard it said that it's men controlling women, when it comes to the population. That phrase is used (to my knowledge) as legislators that are overwhelmingly men making these laws.
And btw, the vote in this country isn't split 50/50 men and women for R and D. Women lean/vote D at a 56-38%. Men vote/lean R at 50-42%
You were referring to the elected leaders as not being a 50/50 split. At least I thought you were. That has never been the case for any party. So why mention just republicans as it being an issue for?
That’s probably the single biggest pro-choice argument, that they don’t want men to control women’s bodies. Yes, majority of republicans making said laws are men. But they were voted in and are supported by a lot of women. And polls that generally ban abortions but allow for certain exceptions are fairly close to a 50/50 gender split. Therefore I don’t see calling abortion laws as men trying to control a women’s body as accurate. If that were the case then women wouldn’t make up a significant portion of the pro-life movement. It really just comes down to does the rights of the unborn child supersede that of the mother, or do the mother’s rights supersede the unborn baby? Not if you believe in old white guys then you’re against abortion. Every single person I’ve ever had a genuine conversation about this topic with it has come down to that.
Look at the states passing the laws, then look at the republican party legislative bodies in those states. You will see them as overwhelmingly male. That's the point of the statement around men passing these laws. You can't just look at the country as a whole and say, look there are just as many women serving office so it must not be men driving these laws. Well these laws aren't across the country, they are in certain states.
No offense Mace, but you're kind of picking some strange arguments here the last few days.
There aren’t as many women serving as men. I didn’t say there were Never has been for any political party.
I guess we’ll have to disagree. To me it doesn’t make sense that abortion laws are about restricting women when nearly half of the supporters are women. It makes more sense to believe what they claim, and that is they believe a fetus is a life deserving of rights. That makes sense. Of course those views are influenced by church and politics. I’m not trying to pick strange arguments. It just frustrates me when everything creates more division and leads to more hate among our own country. The left should recognize it’s not about controlling women, for the reasons I just stated. The right needs to recognize late term abortions are actually pretty rare and it’s not used as just another form of birth control. People are waking into the clinic 1 week before the due date because they changed their mind. Maybe we’d get some common ground if everyone could see that.
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
A lot of that polling you have to look into the data a bit. If 54% of women are pro choice for example it looks pretty even. However when asked should Roe be overturned it’s 2/3 say or 66% say no.
There are pro life people and pro choice people… there are also a lot of people who are against abortion morally but who also don’t want the government deciding that question so capturing the pro choice light crowd is harder to capture
My wife is one. She would never ever have an abortion under any circumstance and is morally opposed to it. She also doesn’t want her views forced on others. I consider her pro choice, she considers herself pro life. When your personal views are separate from the legal argument a lot of people self identify with their personal view
If you look at the makeup of a lot of these statehouses it’s still overwhelmingly men. That’s where these laws are passed. Same can be said for all the anti gay laws. It’s not like there is a lot of gay lawmakers voting for this stuff
my wife is another. exact same stance. that's the essence of pro choice.
I guess we’ll have to disagree. To me it doesn’t make sense that abortion laws are about restricting women when nearly half of the supporters are women. It makes more sense to believe what they claim, and that is they believe a fetus is a life deserving of rights. That makes sense. Of course those views are influenced by church and politics. I’m not trying to pick strange arguments. It just frustrates me when everything creates more division and leads to more hate among our own country. The left should recognize it’s not about controlling women, for the reasons I just stated. The right needs to recognize late term abortions are actually pretty rare and it’s not used as just another form of birth control. People are waking into the clinic 1 week before the due date because they changed their mind. Maybe we’d get some common ground if everyone could see that.
If the right cared about coming together, there would be huge resources thrown at supporting pregnant females who are most likely to have abortions ( minority and young). States with the aggressive abortion bans of late like Texas - would they ever have generous programs educating women to take pregnancies to term, guaranteeing all support, healthcare, childcare for the new life, even adoption programs for those who are not ready for parenthoood, so young pregnant women all feel like a valued member of the community with its arms outstretched ready to help support these pregnancies after birth no matter what?
But we know this is not how these aggressive states operate. The truth is they treat these pregnant females like criminals, and they are in the precipice of scaring them into back alleys looking for the nearest dry cleaner. “Do not expect us to pay one penny because you are young and poor and had premarital sex” is the message.
Although I agree white women are very much to blame for the SCOTUS moving 6-3 conservative during the trump years, this is all about men and extremists like ACB wanting to control women’s sexual activity
Right on. We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose. Were not going to let this happen."
I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
A lot of that polling you have to look into the data a bit. If 54% of women are pro choice for example it looks pretty even. However when asked should Roe be overturned it’s 2/3 say or 66% say no.
There are pro life people and pro choice people… there are also a lot of people who are against abortion morally but who also don’t want the government deciding that question so capturing the pro choice light crowd is harder to capture
My wife is one. She would never ever have an abortion under any circumstance and is morally opposed to it. She also doesn’t want her views forced on others. I consider her pro choice, she considers herself pro life. When your personal views are separate from the legal argument a lot of people self identify with their personal view
If you look at the makeup of a lot of these statehouses it’s still overwhelmingly men. That’s where these laws are passed. Same can be said for all the anti gay laws. It’s not like there is a lot of gay lawmakers voting for this stuff
my wife is another. exact same stance. that's the essence of pro choice.
These are the best stances yet. That was my point all along. I was pregnant at 22 and engaged. So when my son noticed that our anniversary obviously is before nine months I was able to say to him honestly that he was a CHOICE. He wasn’t a mistake, nor did we even consider abortion. Had I been 16 and alone I would have gone the adoption route. I am against abortion for me. It’s a free world so I get to choose and I don’t judge those who choose abortion, I’m not here to judge.
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we are where we are though
the will go absolutely as far as they can, if they can’t they will change the rules and try again.
what is also going to happen is police investigations of miscarriages… if a possible “crime” has been committed women will go through all kinds of additional trauma over an event that they are already devastated by. Miscarriages can’t not be investigated as it’s now a suspicious death. If you have a miscarriage at home you are going to have to report it, obviously
Yup.
People who said Roe V Wade was on the ballot in 2016 & 2018 were called alarmist, and yet here we are.
Welcome to Minority Rule.
No elected party is a 50/50 split.
Exactly! And this is why it is so important for the majority to get off our butts and speak out, write and call our representatives, and advocate for better education. And vote for candidates who are not pro-authoritarian!
same concept in an extreme but mathematical possibility of a presidential election. A candidate could lose the popular vote by 10,20,30 million votes and still be the president.
And btw, the vote in this country isn't split 50/50 men and women for R and D. Women lean/vote D at a 56-38%. Men vote/lean R at 50-42%
thats 5.2 million democrats that even bothered to vote who live in a state with the Texas abortion law
population largely in the middle on the whole, laws coming way from the right
florida is another. Their hard right shift politically isn’t in proportion to the voter base. It was even closer
That’s probably the single biggest pro-choice argument, that they don’t want men to control women’s bodies. Yes, majority of republicans making said laws are men. But they were voted in and are supported by a lot of women. And polls that generally ban abortions but allow for certain exceptions are fairly close to a 50/50 gender split. Therefore I don’t see calling abortion laws as men trying to control a women’s body as accurate. If that were the case then women wouldn’t make up a significant portion of the pro-life movement.
It really just comes down to does the rights of the unborn child supersede that of the mother, or do the mother’s rights supersede the unborn baby? Not if you believe in old white guys then you’re against abortion. Every single person I’ve ever had a genuine conversation about this topic with it has come down to that.
No offense Mace, but you're kind of picking some strange arguments here the last few days.
it’s an abstract argument obviously, but it’s true. Male lawmakers aren’t passing restrictions that have anything to do with negativity affecting their autonomy over themselves
I’m not trying to pick strange arguments. It just frustrates me when everything creates more division and leads to more hate among our own country. The left should recognize it’s not about controlling women, for the reasons I just stated. The right needs to recognize late term abortions are actually pretty rare and it’s not used as just another form of birth control. People are waking into the clinic 1 week before the due date because they changed their mind. Maybe we’d get some common ground if everyone could see that.
skills I don’t believe that survive today in politics
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But we know this is not how these aggressive states operate. The truth is they treat these pregnant females like criminals, and they are in the precipice of scaring them into back alleys looking for the nearest dry cleaner. “Do not expect us to pay one penny because you are young and poor and had premarital sex” is the message.