Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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  • jnimhaoileoinjnimhaoileoin Baile Átha CliathPosts: 2,682
    Also that only relates to America? As I said, the situation is completely different in Ireland so you can't just make blanket generalisations
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,479
    edited March 2018
    mace1229 said:
    I thought that was commonly accepted as a very limited number were for medical reasons or rape. 
    http://www.actionlife.org/index.php/life-issues/abortion/item/124-the-real-reason-women-choose-abortion
    Are you seriously quoting a Pro-Life lobby group? You couldn't at least manage to find an independent source to support your statistics?
    Honestly, I didn't even read it. I have never heard anyone claim that rape and medical reasons are anything but a small minority of abortions. A simple google search will give you dozens of results, I simply just linked one out of dozens that gave the same information.
    I believe you are the first to ever suggest anything different. 
    If you don't like my link and want to go against the flow and believe the majority of abortions are a result of rape and medical necessities, then by all means go on believing that.
    The top search result was NY Times and actually said it was only 1%. Feeling you wouldn't believe the 1% I just linked the second or third hit.

    https://us.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=iry&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003&type=drg_ir_15_21&param1=1&param2=cat=web&sesid=af8c4a5ea4c29cb645c9993e9eafeaf6&ip=174.24.54.150&b=Chrome&bv=64.0.3282.186&os=Windows-8&os_ver=6.2&pa=dregol&sid=ae00f86b33afbc9bc9bb5d836d734db9&abid=&abg=&a=drg_ir_15_21&cd=2XzuyEtN2Y1L1Qzu0AtD0Azz0C0Dzy0DzztAyBzy0A0A0EyDtN0D0Tzu0StCtBtAyBtN1L2XzutAtFtCtDtFtCtDtFtDtN1L1CzutCyEtBzytDyD1V1StN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2StCtB0D0E0A0EyEtAtGyB0Czy0FtGzy0BtA0EtGtByBtCtDtGtDyCyC0F0FyBtCzy0CtD0Czy2QtN1M1F1B2Z1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyCtByEtByBtDyC0AtG0ByB0FyDtGyEyByCyCtG0AtBtDtCtG0DtAyC0BtA0Dzz0DtA0DyD0D2QtN0A0LzuyE&cr=1850960913&f=4&p=what percent abortion for medical reasons and rape
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • jnimhaoileoinjnimhaoileoin Baile Átha CliathPosts: 2,682
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I thought that was commonly accepted as a very limited number were for medical reasons or rape. 
    http://www.actionlife.org/index.php/life-issues/abortion/item/124-the-real-reason-women-choose-abortion
    Are you seriously quoting a Pro-Life lobby group? You couldn't at least manage to find an independent source to support your statistics?
    Honestly, I didn't even read it. I have never heard anyone claim that rape and medical reasons are anything but a small minority of abortions. A simple google search will give you dozens of results, I simply just linked one out of dozens that gave the same information.
    I believe you are the first to ever suggest anything different. 
    If you don't like my link and want to go against the flow and believe the majority of abortions are a result of rape and medical necessities, then by all means go on believing that.
    The top search result was NY Times and actually said it was only 1%. Feeling you wouldn't believe the 1% I just linked the second or third hit.

    https://us.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=iry&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003&type=drg_ir_15_21&param1=1&param2=cat=web&sesid=af8c4a5ea4c29cb645c9993e9eafeaf6&ip=174.24.54.150&b=Chrome&bv=64.0.3282.186&os=Windows-8&os_ver=6.2&pa=dregol&sid=ae00f86b33afbc9bc9bb5d836d734db9&abid=&abg=&a=drg_ir_15_21&cd=2XzuyEtN2Y1L1Qzu0AtD0Azz0C0Dzy0DzztAyBzy0A0A0EyDtN0D0Tzu0StCtBtAyBtN1L2XzutAtFtCtDtFtCtDtFtDtN1L1CzutCyEtBzytDyD1V1StN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2StCtB0D0E0A0EyEtAtGyB0Czy0FtGzy0BtA0EtGtByBtCtDtGtDyCyC0F0FyBtCzy0CtD0Czy2QtN1M1F1B2Z1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyCtByEtByBtDyC0AtG0ByB0FyDtGyEyByCyCtG0AtBtDtCtG0DtAyC0BtA0Dzz0DtA0DyD0D2QtN0A0LzuyE&cr=1850960913&f=4&p=what percent abortion for medical reasons and rape
    I never ever came near to suggesting that the majority of abortions were due to rape or medical necessity, I simply questioned your own suggestion that they accounted for as low as 1%. In Ireland, the argument for allowing abortion focuses mainly on these issues as we currently force women to go abroad in such cases, as if they were criminals
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,479
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I thought that was commonly accepted as a very limited number were for medical reasons or rape. 
    http://www.actionlife.org/index.php/life-issues/abortion/item/124-the-real-reason-women-choose-abortion
    Are you seriously quoting a Pro-Life lobby group? You couldn't at least manage to find an independent source to support your statistics?
    Honestly, I didn't even read it. I have never heard anyone claim that rape and medical reasons are anything but a small minority of abortions. A simple google search will give you dozens of results, I simply just linked one out of dozens that gave the same information.
    I believe you are the first to ever suggest anything different. 
    If you don't like my link and want to go against the flow and believe the majority of abortions are a result of rape and medical necessities, then by all means go on believing that.
    The top search result was NY Times and actually said it was only 1%. Feeling you wouldn't believe the 1% I just linked the second or third hit.

    https://us.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=iry&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003&type=drg_ir_15_21&param1=1&param2=cat=web&sesid=af8c4a5ea4c29cb645c9993e9eafeaf6&ip=174.24.54.150&b=Chrome&bv=64.0.3282.186&os=Windows-8&os_ver=6.2&pa=dregol&sid=ae00f86b33afbc9bc9bb5d836d734db9&abid=&abg=&a=drg_ir_15_21&cd=2XzuyEtN2Y1L1Qzu0AtD0Azz0C0Dzy0DzztAyBzy0A0A0EyDtN0D0Tzu0StCtBtAyBtN1L2XzutAtFtCtDtFtCtDtFtDtN1L1CzutCyEtBzytDyD1V1StN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2StCtB0D0E0A0EyEtAtGyB0Czy0FtGzy0BtA0EtGtByBtCtDtGtDyCyC0F0FyBtCzy0CtD0Czy2QtN1M1F1B2Z1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyCtByEtByBtDyC0AtG0ByB0FyDtGyEyByCyCtG0AtBtDtCtG0DtAyC0BtA0Dzz0DtA0DyD0D2QtN0A0LzuyE&cr=1850960913&f=4&p=what percent abortion for medical reasons and rape
    I never ever came near to suggesting that the majority of abortions were due to rape or medical necessity, I simply questioned your own suggestion that they accounted for as low as 1%. In Ireland, the argument for allowing abortion focuses mainly on these issues as we currently force women to go abroad in such cases, as if they were criminals
    I guess I only came to than assumption when you (I think it was you) referenced someone as having extreme views for ignoring rape and medical reasons when forming their opinions on abortion.
    If that were the case, I would agree with that other post. Lets make laws that impact the vast majority, which I believe is about 95% (at the very least, a clear majority), and if needed, make exceptions to accommodate the other 5%.
    We've all probably had that job where 1 person abusing the system, so then they crack down and implement new regulations that effect everyone instead of addressing the one person who is at fault. But if someone's argument for pro-choice is "but what about rape, incenst and medical reasons?" that seems to be pretty much the same as that employer who puts new restrictions on sick leave that affect 100 employees instead of addressing the 1 employee that was the problem.
  • ShynerShyner Posts: 1,226
    Abortion starts in a man. 
    So if there's gonna be a change for women than men must stop masturbating .

    This means cameras everywhere folks. 
    Lots of jobs watching to make sure no one is jerkin around. 

    Save sperm it may be the fountain of youth for men . 




  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,926
    I can only address the abortion issue from the perspective of a man and that perspective for me is that as a man, I have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body.  Even if I don't like the idea of abortion.  But then, who likes abortions?  Not many, right?  Right.  Very few people like having an abortion.

    So assuming abortions are something most people don't want done or have done, what is the answer, (beside the obvious choice of protection)?  I would say, learning and open and honest dialog with anyone old enough to get pregnant or make someone pregnant.  Especially with young adults who, being what they are, get horny and do stuff.   That's when a lot of unwanted pregnancies occur.   You can't tell young people not to screw unless you take extreme, unwarranted or unethical actions- and doing any of those is wrong

    A lot of young adults are gonna screw.  If they get good open honest information, they are more likely to not end up impregnating or getting pregnant.  The end result: fewer abortions.

    And for those who don't get good education, open talk, etc., or are too dumb to follow good advice?  I still say the woman has to make the final choice.
    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • DegeneratefkDegeneratefk Posts: 3,123
    This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

    Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

    Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

    Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 
    I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 
    will myself to find a home, a home within myself
    we will find a way, we will find our place
  • jnimhaoileoinjnimhaoileoin Baile Átha CliathPosts: 2,682
    This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

    Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

    Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

    Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 
    I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 
    Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,021
    i'm in canada and I haven't read the canadian constitution. my perception is that knowing the ins and outs of your country's constitution is fairly unique to america. 
  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWestPosts: 12,446
    i'm in canada and I haven't read the canadian constitution. my perception is that knowing the ins and outs of your country's constitution is fairly unique to america. 
    Not really. Only a few amendments and only the portions that help a person's particular point of view. The parts that hinder that point of view get quickly forgotten.
    ___________________________________________

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  • DegeneratefkDegeneratefk Posts: 3,123
    This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

    Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

    Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

    Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 
    I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 
    Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 
    No, I havemt. What does it say?
    will myself to find a home, a home within myself
    we will find a way, we will find our place
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,854
    I say let a woman do whatever she wants with her body.  It’s definitely not a form of birth control though, that’s super duper fucked up.
    It is fucked up, but also rare. Hardly any women do that because abortion is unpleasant as fuck. I think that the whole "using it as birth control" argument as it's used by pro-lifers is misleading, because it gives the impression that this is really common, but it's not.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • jnimhaoileoinjnimhaoileoin Baile Átha CliathPosts: 2,682
    This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

    Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

    Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

    Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 
    I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 
    Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 
    No, I havemt. What does it say?
    At the moment it basically recognises the rights of the 'unborn' from the moment of conception (abortion is illegal here, under any circumstances). We're having a referendum this year to hopefully sort it out and drag us into the 21st century
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,479
    edited March 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    I say let a woman do whatever she wants with her body.  It’s definitely not a form of birth control though, that’s super duper fucked up.
    It is fucked up, but also rare. Hardly any women do that because abortion is unpleasant as fuck. I think that the whole "using it as birth control" argument as it's used by pro-lifers is misleading, because it gives the impression that this is really common, but it's not.
    What would you consider for birth control?
    Every source I've ever seen puts things like rape, incenst, medical needs anywhere from about 2 or 3% to about 7 or 8% tops of abortions.
    The most common factors are financial, not ready to have a baby, don't want another baby and so on. Those factors easily make up the majority of abortions. Do you not consider that for "birth control"?
    I don't see how that is misleading at all.
    If that isn't "birth control," to stop an unwanted and unintended pregnancy from consensual sex, then what is?
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • DegeneratefkDegeneratefk Posts: 3,123
    This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

    Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

    Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

    Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 
    I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 
    Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 
    No, I havemt. What does it say?
    At the moment it basically recognises the rights of the 'unborn' from the moment of conception (abortion is illegal here, under any circumstances). We're having a referendum this year to hopefully sort it out and drag us into the 21st century

    How do women's rights groups react to that kind of amendment? I see that and immediately think "can women vote in ireland?" Clearly a sarcastic remark. But how was that vote cast in your "congress?" Does Ireland have many women politicians?
    will myself to find a home, a home within myself
    we will find a way, we will find our place
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,021
    edited March 2018
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    I say let a woman do whatever she wants with her body.  It’s definitely not a form of birth control though, that’s super duper fucked up.
    It is fucked up, but also rare. Hardly any women do that because abortion is unpleasant as fuck. I think that the whole "using it as birth control" argument as it's used by pro-lifers is misleading, because it gives the impression that this is really common, but it's not.
    What would you consider for birth control?
    Every source I've ever seen puts things like rape, incenst, medical needs anywhere from about 2 or 3% to about 7 or 8% tops of abortions.
    The most common factors are financial, not ready to have a baby, don't want another baby and so on. Those factors easily make up the majority of abortions. Do you not consider that for "birth control"?
    I don't see how that is misleading at all.
    If that isn't "birth control," to stop an unwanted and unintended pregnancy from consensual sex, then what is?
    my take is what they mean is this: "using it as a form of birth control" is when a woman decides not to use birth control (condoms, the pill, rhythm method, etc), knowing full well she can have an abortion should the need arise. this is different from someone who uses birth control methods, whatever that may be, and gets pregnant accidentally. 
  • wobbler_kittywobbler_kitty Millbury, MAPosts: 155
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    I say let a woman do whatever she wants with her body.  It’s definitely not a form of birth control though, that’s super duper fucked up.
    It is fucked up, but also rare. Hardly any women do that because abortion is unpleasant as fuck. I think that the whole "using it as birth control" argument as it's used by pro-lifers is misleading, because it gives the impression that this is really common, but it's not.
    What would you consider for birth control?
    Every source I've ever seen puts things like rape, incenst, medical needs anywhere from about 2 or 3% to about 7 or 8% tops of abortions.
    The most common factors are financial, not ready to have a baby, don't want another baby and so on. Those factors easily make up the majority of abortions. Do you not consider that for "birth control"?
    I don't see how that is misleading at all.
    If that isn't "birth control," to stop an unwanted and unintended pregnancy from consensual sex, then what is?
    Using it as birth control, meaning, the woman doesn’t use any form of preventative during sex. ie: condoms, the pill, IUD, etc. Basically taking their chances having unprotected sex and if pregnancy happens to result, having an abortion.

    I’m confident in saying that women using abortion as a birth control method is an extremely low percentage of overall abortions. Not only would it cost significantly more than normal birth control, there are also STD’s and PID to consider, as well as risk of inability to conceive in the future.
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 10,869
    Of all the American political ideologies, conservatives being anti-abortion is the most mind-numbing to me. I'll elaborate with this hypothetical scenario:

    Girl: I'm pregnant but have no means to support a child. Can I get an abortion?

    Republican Dude: You want to murder your unborn child? I can't allow it. What would God think of that?

    Girl: Umm...okay. Well then can I get some welfare money and food stamps so I can feed and clothe this child that I can't afford but you're making me have?

    Republican Dude: I'm sorry but that's a question for the democrats. We only deal in unborn children. After you have the child, I don't care what you do with it. Kill it if you want. You can borrow my gun.

    Girl: So you care if the child dies before it's born but don't care if it dies after it's born?

    Republican Dude: I care. I'm just not going to help you with the kid after it's born.

    Girl: So you don't care.

    Republican Dude: Fine...I guess not.
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  • jnimhaoileoinjnimhaoileoin Baile Átha CliathPosts: 2,682
    edited March 2018
    This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

    Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

    Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

    Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 
    I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 
    Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 
    No, I havemt. What does it say?
    At the moment it basically recognises the rights of the 'unborn' from the moment of conception (abortion is illegal here, under any circumstances). We're having a referendum this year to hopefully sort it out and drag us into the 21st century

    How do women's rights groups react to that kind of amendment? I see that and immediately think "can women vote in ireland?" Clearly a sarcastic remark. But how was that vote cast in your "congress?" Does Ireland have many women politicians?

    ***sorry couldn't get my reply outside the quote


    It wasn't parliament, only the people of Ireland can make a change to the constitution. So what happened was that contraception was illegal in Ireland up to the 80's. When that was legalised, they got worried that it could lead to a legal challenge to the prohibition of abortion, which stood in the original constitution of 1937. So they put it to the people, who in their Catholic wisdom decided to firm up the language criminalising abortion. That was the 8th Anendment. Then in 1993, after the X Case, there was a further referendum and this time the Irish people were given the opportunity to approve the addition of two paragraphs to the 8th allowing access to information on services abroad and allowing Irish citizens to travel to a foreign state for an abortion. Now the campaign is to repeal the 8th and the debate is what to put in its place i.e. do we allow unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks (that's pretty much as far as this is ever likely to go) or do we limit it to cases of rape, fatal foetal abnormality or threat to the life of the mother.

    Time will tell but you can imagine it's quite a divisive topic. A recent anti-abortion campaign used posters of children with Downs Syndrome, suggesting repealing the 8th was encouraging eugenics and a step on the path to unlimited abortion on demand. They were practically comparing it to genocide
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,479
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    I say let a woman do whatever she wants with her body.  It’s definitely not a form of birth control though, that’s super duper fucked up.
    It is fucked up, but also rare. Hardly any women do that because abortion is unpleasant as fuck. I think that the whole "using it as birth control" argument as it's used by pro-lifers is misleading, because it gives the impression that this is really common, but it's not.
    What would you consider for birth control?
    Every source I've ever seen puts things like rape, incenst, medical needs anywhere from about 2 or 3% to about 7 or 8% tops of abortions.
    The most common factors are financial, not ready to have a baby, don't want another baby and so on. Those factors easily make up the majority of abortions. Do you not consider that for "birth control"?
    I don't see how that is misleading at all.
    If that isn't "birth control," to stop an unwanted and unintended pregnancy from consensual sex, then what is?
    Using it as birth control, meaning, the woman doesn’t use any form of preventative during sex. ie: condoms, the pill, IUD, etc. Basically taking their chances having unprotected sex and if pregnancy happens to result, having an abortion.

    I’m confident in saying that women using abortion as a birth control method is an extremely low percentage of overall abortions. Not only would it cost significantly more than normal birth control, there are also STD’s and PID to consider, as well as risk of inability to conceive in the future.
    I would also predict that number to be very low, those who purposefully ignore all other forms just because they know abortion is an option.
    But I would also consider those who are careless, maybe because they thought that the timing was wrong and could not get pregnant, maybe were drunk, maybe ran out of condoms and thought just this one time is okay. Maybe the spermicide requires them to wait 15 minutes and they only waited 10 and thought it was close enough.  I'd lump all those into the "birth control" category and I would predict that is a much more significant number.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,926
    Of all the American political ideologies, conservatives being anti-abortion is the most mind-numbing to me. I'll elaborate with this hypothetical scenario:

    Girl: I'm pregnant but have no means to support a child. Can I get an abortion?

    Republican Dude: You want to murder your unborn child? I can't allow it. What would God think of that?

    Girl: Umm...okay. Well then can I get some welfare money and food stamps so I can feed and clothe this child that I can't afford but you're making me have?

    Republican Dude: I'm sorry but that's a question for the democrats. We only deal in unborn children. After you have the child, I don't care what you do with it. Kill it if you want. You can borrow my gun.

    Girl: So you care if the child dies before it's born but don't care if it dies after it's born?

    Republican Dude: I care. I'm just not going to help you with the kid after it's born.

    Girl: So you don't care.

    Republican Dude: Fine...I guess not.
    Nailed it!
    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,479
    Of all the American political ideologies, conservatives being anti-abortion is the most mind-numbing to me. I'll elaborate with this hypothetical scenario:

    Girl: I'm pregnant but have no means to support a child. Can I get an abortion?

    Republican Dude: You want to murder your unborn child? I can't allow it. What would God think of that?

    Girl: Umm...okay. Well then can I get some welfare money and food stamps so I can feed and clothe this child that I can't afford but you're making me have?

    Republican Dude: I'm sorry but that's a question for the democrats. We only deal in unborn children. After you have the child, I don't care what you do with it. Kill it if you want. You can borrow my gun.

    Girl: So you care if the child dies before it's born but don't care if it dies after it's born?

    Republican Dude: I care. I'm just not going to help you with the kid after it's born.

    Girl: So you don't care.

    Republican Dude: Fine...I guess not.
    I don't think that is accurate. I know a lot of republicans, and I can't think of any who would be against all forms of welfare. Yes, many are against the ObamaPhones, and 2 years of unemployment, maybe some sort of cut-off at some point if there have been no attempts to complete a high school education. But many would be for supporting a young mother for a period of time.
  • DegeneratefkDegeneratefk Posts: 3,123
    This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

    Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

    Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

    Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 
    I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 
    Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 
    No, I havemt. What does it say?
    At the moment it basically recognises the rights of the 'unborn' from the moment of conception (abortion is illegal here, under any circumstances). We're having a referendum this year to hopefully sort it out and drag us into the 21st century

    How do women's rights groups react to that kind of amendment? I see that and immediately think "can women vote in ireland?" Clearly a sarcastic remark. But how was that vote cast in your "congress?" Does Ireland have many women politicians?

    ***sorry couldn't get my reply outside the quote


    It wasn't parliament, only the people of Ireland can make a change to the constitution. So what happened was that contraception was illegal in Ireland up to the 80's. When that was legalised, they got worried that it could lead to a legal challenge to the prohibition of abortion, which stood in the original constitution of 1937. So they put it to the people, who in their Catholic wisdom decided to firm up the language criminalising abortion. That was the 8th Anendment. Then in 1993, after the X Case, there was a further referendum and this time the Irish people were given the opportunity to approve the addition of two paragraphs to the 8th allowing access to information on services abroad and allowing Irish citizens to travel to a foreign state for an abortion. Now the campaign is to repeal the 8th and the debate is what to put in its place i.e. do we allow unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks (that's pretty much as far as this is ever likely to go) or do we limit it to cases of rape, fatal foetal abnormality or threat to the life of the mother.

    Time will tell but you can imagine it's quite a divisive topic. A recent anti-abortion campaign used posters of children with Downs Syndrome, suggesting repealing the 8th was encouraging eugenics and a step on the path to unlimited abortion on demand. They were practically comparing it to genocide
    Wow, Catholics rule with an iron fist over there? I'm hoping, for women's sake, you guys legalize it in the future. Outlawing it just forces dangerous coat hanger style abortions.
    will myself to find a home, a home within myself
    we will find a way, we will find our place
  • jnimhaoileoinjnimhaoileoin Baile Átha CliathPosts: 2,682
    This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

    Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

    Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

    Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 
    I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 
    Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 
    No, I havemt. What does it say?
    At the moment it basically recognises the rights of the 'unborn' from the moment of conception (abortion is illegal here, under any circumstances). We're having a referendum this year to hopefully sort it out and drag us into the 21st century

    How do women's rights groups react to that kind of amendment? I see that and immediately think "can women vote in ireland?" Clearly a sarcastic remark. But how was that vote cast in your "congress?" Does Ireland have many women politicians?

    ***sorry couldn't get my reply outside the quote


    It wasn't parliament, only the people of Ireland can make a change to the constitution. So what happened was that contraception was illegal in Ireland up to the 80's. When that was legalised, they got worried that it could lead to a legal challenge to the prohibition of abortion, which stood in the original constitution of 1937. So they put it to the people, who in their Catholic wisdom decided to firm up the language criminalising abortion. That was the 8th Anendment. Then in 1993, after the X Case, there was a further referendum and this time the Irish people were given the opportunity to approve the addition of two paragraphs to the 8th allowing access to information on services abroad and allowing Irish citizens to travel to a foreign state for an abortion. Now the campaign is to repeal the 8th and the debate is what to put in its place i.e. do we allow unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks (that's pretty much as far as this is ever likely to go) or do we limit it to cases of rape, fatal foetal abnormality or threat to the life of the mother.

    Time will tell but you can imagine it's quite a divisive topic. A recent anti-abortion campaign used posters of children with Downs Syndrome, suggesting repealing the 8th was encouraging eugenics and a step on the path to unlimited abortion on demand. They were practically comparing it to genocide
    Wow, Catholics rule with an iron fist over there? I'm hoping, for women's sake, you guys legalize it in the future. Outlawing it just forces dangerous coat hanger style abortions.
    No coat hangers, just a Ryanair flight to England. Bear in mind that in the 80s, Ireland was 99% Catholic, it really was the will of the majority, women included
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 10,869
    mace1229 said:
    Of all the American political ideologies, conservatives being anti-abortion is the most mind-numbing to me. I'll elaborate with this hypothetical scenario:

    Girl: I'm pregnant but have no means to support a child. Can I get an abortion?

    Republican Dude: You want to murder your unborn child? I can't allow it. What would God think of that?

    Girl: Umm...okay. Well then can I get some welfare money and food stamps so I can feed and clothe this child that I can't afford but you're making me have?

    Republican Dude: I'm sorry but that's a question for the democrats. We only deal in unborn children. After you have the child, I don't care what you do with it. Kill it if you want. You can borrow my gun.

    Girl: So you care if the child dies before it's born but don't care if it dies after it's born?

    Republican Dude: I care. I'm just not going to help you with the kid after it's born.

    Girl: So you don't care.

    Republican Dude: Fine...I guess not.
    I don't think that is accurate. I know a lot of republicans, and I can't think of any who would be against all forms of welfare. Yes, many are against the ObamaPhones, and 2 years of unemployment, maybe some sort of cut-off at some point if there have been no attempts to complete a high school education. But many would be for supporting a young mother for a period of time.
    You're talking about citizens who are republicans. I'm talking about republicans that are elected officials. I should have clarified that. And I'm sure there are republican officials who in their heart "would be for supporting a young mother for a period of time." But in their minds, they know that goes against their agenda.

    This sort of extreme thinking that I'm poking fun at with my "skit" happens with the democrats too though. I'll redo it with a Democratic Dude:

    Girl: I'm pregnant but have no means to support a child. Can I get an abortion?

    Democratic Dude: You sure could! Or...and I'm just throwing this out there...you can have the baby and get all the free money and food you need!

    Girl: Whoa really? Well....what if I have two kids?

    Democratic Dude: Well if that's the case, can I interest you in a new home for free?

    Girl: Well...yeah. Of course.

    Democratic Dude: Cool. Well I'll assign you a bunch of caseworkers that are paid with taxpayer dollars and they can get started on getting you all the free shit you need!
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2

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  • DegeneratefkDegeneratefk Posts: 3,123
    Off topic: I find it funny when people say Obama phones. 
    will myself to find a home, a home within myself
    we will find a way, we will find our place
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,479
    mace1229 said:
    Of all the American political ideologies, conservatives being anti-abortion is the most mind-numbing to me. I'll elaborate with this hypothetical scenario:

    Girl: I'm pregnant but have no means to support a child. Can I get an abortion?

    Republican Dude: You want to murder your unborn child? I can't allow it. What would God think of that?

    Girl: Umm...okay. Well then can I get some welfare money and food stamps so I can feed and clothe this child that I can't afford but you're making me have?

    Republican Dude: I'm sorry but that's a question for the democrats. We only deal in unborn children. After you have the child, I don't care what you do with it. Kill it if you want. You can borrow my gun.

    Girl: So you care if the child dies before it's born but don't care if it dies after it's born?

    Republican Dude: I care. I'm just not going to help you with the kid after it's born.

    Girl: So you don't care.

    Republican Dude: Fine...I guess not.
    I don't think that is accurate. I know a lot of republicans, and I can't think of any who would be against all forms of welfare. Yes, many are against the ObamaPhones, and 2 years of unemployment, maybe some sort of cut-off at some point if there have been no attempts to complete a high school education. But many would be for supporting a young mother for a period of time.
    You're talking about citizens who are republicans. I'm talking about republicans that are elected officials. I should have clarified that. And I'm sure there are republican officials who in their heart "would be for supporting a young mother for a period of time." But in their minds, they know that goes against their agenda.

    This sort of extreme thinking that I'm poking fun at with my "skit" happens with the democrats too though. I'll redo it with a Democratic Dude:

    Girl: I'm pregnant but have no means to support a child. Can I get an abortion?

    Democratic Dude: You sure could! Or...and I'm just throwing this out there...you can have the baby and get all the free money and food you need!

    Girl: Whoa really? Well....what if I have two kids?

    Democratic Dude: Well if that's the case, can I interest you in a new home for free?

    Girl: Well...yeah. Of course.

    Democratic Dude: Cool. Well I'll assign you a bunch of caseworkers that are paid with taxpayer dollars and they can get started on getting you all the free shit you need!
    fair enough
  • PJinILPJinIL satan's bedPosts: 391
    PJinIL said:
    The whole argument about it being the woman's body is skewed to me. I don't have facts or articles to point to, but I'd believe the majority of decisions made about having an abortion are more about the lifestyle changes and obligations that come with parenthood, not the actual decision of whether the woman is worried about her physical being. So it becomes a decision of "do I want a baby or not?" That is a very different discussion than "do I fear for my life and birthing complications enough to abort?"

    Think of it this way, if a woman who finds herself pregnant could have the embryo/fetus/etc taken out to be developed to term in another environment, would she still want the baby? If she doesn't want the baby either way, I think that's a barometer for telling the woman she doesn't qualify for an abortion, it's totally elective and a selfish decision that does affect other people's lives. Thus, I believe in some injection (get it?) of father's rights in elective decisions. I do NOT believe a father should have authority to make the mother have an abortion.

    Not to say the decision isn't torturous, I thought my girlfriend in HS got pregnant and we were scared out of our minds when she was 3-4 days late. Over the next couple of days, neither of us could say it was right to think about having an abortion. Turns out, she got her period about 2 hours after we made the decision to keep it, much to our delight. Never been so happy to have a girlfriend with a period in my life!


    this is why most agree it should be legal, safe, and RARE. I don't think anyone is positing that some women abort out of fear of the possibility of complications. is that what you are saying?
    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm pro-life enough that I believe abortion should be for cases where there is a danger to the mother and/or baby. I honestly am not sure where I fall on the spectrum of say a married or committed couple that is using birth control and it fails. Thing is, there's really no way to know for sure. A couple that uses only condoms, but decides to make it feel extra good one night and gets pregnant could always say they used one. I couldn't choose to abort if I were in that situation, and would go the adoption route if I didn't want/wasn't able to raise it myself. 

    Someone has mentioned overpopulation, that's one issue I've pondered. I could get on board with policies to limit family size. Say 2 kids per household (number could be debatable). Over that, and you get taxed or something. Still have a choice, but somewhere along the line humans are going to have to be reasonable with resources or thin the population so we use less. I look around at the garbage in stores. Just crap that is being bought for $1 that will be used by some kid for 2 minutes, clutter a bedroom, and then become litter. Not to mention the resources and pollution generated to make the stuff. I'm no saint to the earth, but we do try to be conscious of what we use in our home, recycle what we can and try not to buy "fluff stuff" that we know isn't of real value. I digress.


    It's amazing what you hear when you take time to listen.
  • DegeneratefkDegeneratefk Posts: 3,123
    PJinIL said:
    PJinIL said:
    The whole argument about it being the woman's body is skewed to me. I don't have facts or articles to point to, but I'd believe the majority of decisions made about having an abortion are more about the lifestyle changes and obligations that come with parenthood, not the actual decision of whether the woman is worried about her physical being. So it becomes a decision of "do I want a baby or not?" That is a very different discussion than "do I fear for my life and birthing complications enough to abort?"

    Think of it this way, if a woman who finds herself pregnant could have the embryo/fetus/etc taken out to be developed to term in another environment, would she still want the baby? If she doesn't want the baby either way, I think that's a barometer for telling the woman she doesn't qualify for an abortion, it's totally elective and a selfish decision that does affect other people's lives. Thus, I believe in some injection (get it?) of father's rights in elective decisions. I do NOT believe a father should have authority to make the mother have an abortion.

    Not to say the decision isn't torturous, I thought my girlfriend in HS got pregnant and we were scared out of our minds when she was 3-4 days late. Over the next couple of days, neither of us could say it was right to think about having an abortion. Turns out, she got her period about 2 hours after we made the decision to keep it, much to our delight. Never been so happy to have a girlfriend with a period in my life!


    this is why most agree it should be legal, safe, and RARE. I don't think anyone is positing that some women abort out of fear of the possibility of complications. is that what you are saying?
    I guess what I'm saying is, I'm pro-life enough that I believe abortion should be for cases where there is a danger to the mother and/or baby. I honestly am not sure where I fall on the spectrum of say a married or committed couple that is using birth control and it fails. Thing is, there's really no way to know for sure. A couple that uses only condoms, but decides to make it feel extra good one night and gets pregnant could always say they used one. I couldn't choose to abort if I were in that situation, and would go the adoption route if I didn't want/wasn't able to raise it myself. 

    Someone has mentioned overpopulation, that's one issue I've pondered. I could get on board with policies to limit family size. Say 2 kids per household (number could be debatable). Over that, and you get taxed or something. Still have a choice, but somewhere along the line humans are going to have to be reasonable with resources or thin the population so we use less. I look around at the garbage in stores. Just crap that is being bought for $1 that will be used by some kid for 2 minutes, clutter a bedroom, and then become litter. Not to mention the resources and pollution generated to make the stuff. I'm no saint to the earth, but we do try to be conscious of what we use in our home, recycle what we can and try not to buy "fluff stuff" that we know isn't of real value. I digress.


    Over population alone is enough to be on board with birth control abortions. 
    will myself to find a home, a home within myself
    we will find a way, we will find our place
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 6,267
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