Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

JimmyV

cincybearcat said:

No abortion is safe...someone always dies. 

Even if that's true, safe and legal for the mother and rare in society is the best we can hope for currently. Maybe someday the need for it will be eradicated altogether but that day is not today.

HesCalledDyer

You know what's meant by "safe," don't be a contrarian.

And it doesn't matter what any of us consider "life" to be or when we consider it to start.  That's not up for us to decide. It's up to the person getting the procedure done.  If you don't think nearly every potential mother considers the emotional repercussions of having an abortion and mentally battles with herself whether she is killing a life or not, especially one her body helped create, you've not met any woman, ever.

cincybearcat

dankind said:

jeffbr said:

Keep it legal and safe. This is a personal, private decision made by a woman about her body. It shouldn't be a policy decision made by wrinkly old men.

I'll take it further. My opinion on this shouldn't even matter. Neither should anyone's with a Y chromosome.

Yeah cause men aren't involved in making a baby nor are 50% of babies boys.  I hate this argument.

cincybearcat

JimmyV said:

cincybearcat said:

No abortion is safe...someone always dies. 

Even if that's true, safe and legal for the mother and rare in society is the best we can hope for currently. Maybe someday the need for it will be eradicated altogether but that day is not today.

I can agree.  Stopping cold turkey in a case like this would be catastrophic.  It begins with education, access to birth control, open communication about sex, counseling/support....

HesCalledDyer

cincybearcat said:

JimmyV said:

cincybearcat said:

No abortion is safe...someone always dies. 

Even if that's true, safe and legal for the mother and rare in society is the best we can hope for currently. Maybe someday the need for it will be eradicated altogether but that day is not today.

I can agree.  Stopping cold turkey in a case like this would be catastrophic.  It begins with education, access to birth control, open communication about sex, counseling/support....

All things Planned Parenthood provides.

cincybearcat

HesCalledDyer said:

You know what's meant by "safe," don't be a contrarian.

And it doesn't matter what any of us consider "life" to be or when we consider it to start.  That's not up for us to decide. It's up to the person getting the procedure done.  If you don't think nearly every potential mother considers the emotional repercussions of having an abortion and mentally battles with herself whether she is killing a life or not, especially one her body helped create, you've not met any woman, ever.

ummm, that's not being a contrarian.  I and fully disagree with the next 3 sentences.  As for the rest, I'm sure the vast majority do.

dankind

cincybearcat said:

dankind said:

jeffbr said:

Keep it legal and safe. This is a personal, private decision made by a woman about her body. It shouldn't be a policy decision made by wrinkly old men.

I'll take it further. My opinion on this shouldn't even matter. Neither should anyone's with a Y chromosome.

Yeah cause men aren't involved in making a baby nor are 50% of babies boys.  I hate this argument.

While men are usually involved in making them, they're not all involved in raising them.

And actually, a little more than 50% of babies are boys, and sans a uterus transplant, none of them will ever gestate.

Hate away. 

Miss.Snowdrop

This is super close to my heart since my mother was debating abortion when she was pregnant with me. And let me tell ya, I am pretty happy about the fact that she decided against it. 
So from a perspective of a child that nearly didn't make it into the world... I fucking hate abortion and it hurts me to think of all the little people whose mother decided against them... BUT!
As a woman I also understand that there are situations where it seems impossible to raise or even give birth to a child. You may feel too young, immature, poor, socially isolated or your pregnancy may have been a result of rape which is absolutely horrifying. I even understand why my own mother was considering abortion, I am not mad at her, because in the end she decided to keep me. As difficult as my life may be sometimes, I am still thankful. 
I think what it needs is a better support system for women who are pregnant and face seemingly hopeless situations. There is so much stigma when it comes to teenage pregnancies, single women and so on as well as financial pressure when raising a child. It's just not fair. We have the future of humanity in our bellies and are being treated like shit sometimes.  I wish we lived a world where no child was seen as a burden but as a gift and where no one would look at you like you were a mass murderer when you have to give a child away because you want it to have a future you are not able to provide. 

Degeneratefk

I think it should be used as birth control. Keep it legal. 

PJ_Soul

Of course, and I can't even believe it's still up for debate in America, in terms of a simple yes or no. I think it's beyond clear that other people's opinions on whether or not a women should be allowed to have control over her own body are completely irrelevant, at least in the more black and white context.
The one thing I am actually comfortable supporting is a reasonable hard deadline for elective abortion, barring medical reasons, obviously (including allowing mothers to choose to abort after if there are problems with the fetus, including things like Downs, only up until the earliest time it's possible to find such things out). I.e. elective abortion maybe shouldn't be legal after, say, 16 weeks? IMO, 16 weeks is more than enough time for someone to know they're pregnant and decide what to do if they don't want the baby.... that is, if abortions are accessible. They often aren't in America, and the delay can be directly related to that. In those cases, fuck the system. It makes me feel awful that women still have to fight to control their own bodies in many places in America like that, and are met with barriers every step of the way.

dankind

Miss.Snowdrop said:

This iser close to my heart since my mother was debating abortion when she was pregnant with me. And let me tell ya, I am pretty happy about the fact that she decided against it. 
So from a perspective of a child that nearly didn't make it into the world... I fucking hate abortion and it hurts me to think of all the little people whose mother decided against them... BUT!
As a woman I also understand that there are situations where it seems impossible to raise or even give birth to a child. You may feel too young, immature, poor, socially isolated or your pregnancy may have been a result of rape which is absolutely horrifying. I even understand why my own mother was considering abortion, I am not mad at her, because in the end she decided to keep me. As difficult as my life may be sometimes, I am still thankful. 
I think what it needs is a better support system for women who are pregnant and face seemingly hopeless situations. There is so much stigma when it comes to teenage pregnancies, single women and so on as well as financial pressure when raising a child. It's just not fair. We have the future of humanity in our bellies and are being treated like shit sometimes.  I wish we lived a world where no child was seen as a burden but as a gift and where no one would look at you like you were a mass murderer when you have to give a child away because you want it to have a future you are not able to provide. 

Similar situation. My grandmother tried to convince my mother to abort me, especially since my dad had disappeared. But my mom really wanted a baby, so she kept me. She was 17 years old and worked at Kentucky Fried Chicken when she was pregnant with me, and her lot in life only go worse (alcoholism, domestic abuse, crack addiction). But she did what she could to make sure that I had clothes on my back (mostly thanks to grandma's Sears credit card) and food in my tummy (mostly thanks to food stamps and welfare cheese). 

The important thing is that our moms wanted us. And more often than not, this is the case. But for those instances when it's not -- well, again, my opinion shouldn't matter, so I won't state it.

tempo_n_groove

Keep it legal.  

As for how long or when is a cutoff time, I'm not sure if there should be one.

PJinIL

Legal, in cases medical professionals would deem carrying full-term would be life threatening to the woman or baby. Not for mistakes/convenience/birth control.

What I think about is if a man and woman have a consensual experience that results in a pregnancy...what are the father's rights? Next to zero at this point. Some pushes have been made for rights of a HUSBAND, but even those have been struck down.

If the woman doesn't want it, sign the baby away to the dad. If that means the father pays for the prenatal care, medical bills, etc. so be it. That woman loses any visitation or other parental rights at that point.

PJ_Soul

tempo_n_groove said:

Keep it legal.  

As for how long or when is a cutoff time, I'm not sure if there should be one.

I figure there has to be SOME cut off. I mean, not that it really happens, contrary to what idiot Trump says, I think a woman who is 7, 8, 9 months pregnant can't be having an abortion, because that's usually birth. Fetuses that old are just too viable for abortions. If it was actually an abortion, that would mean they'd have to specifically go out of their way to kill the baby even though it could live outside of the mother. I don't like that idea, and I think viability outside the womb is a logical place to draw lines with abortion. I mean, why would any woman need to wait that long to have an elective abortion?? That doesn't even make sense IMO. I don't think it's too much to ask that a woman get an abortion before the baby can survive without her. She had months to make that decision.

dankind

PJinIL said:

Legal, in cases medical professionals would deem carrying full-term would be life threatening to the woman or baby. Not for mistakes/convenience/birth control.

What I think about is if a man and woman have a consensual experience that results in a pregnancy...what are the father's rights? Next to zero at this point. Some pushes have been made for rights of a HUSBAND, but even those have been struck down.

If the woman doesn't want it, sign the baby away to the dad. If that means the father pays for the prenatal care, medical bills, etc. so be it. That woman loses any visitation or other parental rights at that point.

Throw in a uterus transplant for gestation, and I'm on board.

PJPOWER

tempo_n_groove said:

Keep it legal.  

As for how long or when is a cutoff time, I'm not sure if there should be one.

So you would be okay with “aborting”(killing) a fully formed baby given that he/she is still in the mother?  Mind=Blown

PJ_Soul

PJinIL said:

Legal, in cases medical professionals would deem carrying full-term would be life threatening to the woman or baby. Not for mistakes/convenience/birth control.

What I think about is if a man and woman have a consensual experience that results in a pregnancy...what are the father's rights? Next to zero at this point. Some pushes have been made for rights of a HUSBAND, but even those have been struck down.

If the woman doesn't want it, sign the baby away to the dad. If that means the father pays for the prenatal care, medical bills, etc. so be it. That woman loses any visitation or other parental rights at that point.

Not to be harsh, but when you get right down to it, my attitude is "tough shit for the man." Please don't mistake that for me thinking the father doesn't matter. He does. The problem is that it's still irrelevant. It's still the woman's body, and there is no getting around that IMO. Blame nature.

Miss.Snowdrop

PJ_Soul said:

Of course, and I can't even believe it's still up for debate in America, in terms of a simple yes or no. I think it's beyond clear that other people's opinions on whether or not a women should be allowed to have control over her own body are completely irrelevant, at least in the more black and white context.
The one thing I am actually comfortable supporting is a reasonable hard deadline for elective abortion, barring medical reasons, obviously (including allowing mothers to choose to abort after if there are problems with the fetus, including things like Downs, only up until the earliest time it's possible to find such things out). I.e. elective abortion maybe shouldn't be legal after, say, 16 weeks? IMO, 16 weeks is more than enough time for someone to know they're pregnant and decide what to do if they don't want the baby.... that is, if abortions are accessible. They often aren't in America, and the delay can be directly related to that. In those cases, fuck the system. It makes me feel awful that women still have to fight to control their own bodies in many places in America like that, and are met with barriers every step of the way.

16 weeks is enough to know, if you are pregnant, if you're healthy and your body works normally. But in many cases women don't have regular periods or may even still have periods even though they are pregnant or they keep at least spotting. And not everyone gets morning sickness or not as bad and may simply think they have a stomach bug.
At least 1 in 10 women have PCOS which leads to irregular periods and many don't even know they have it...

oftenreading

I agree 16 weeks is too early for a hard deadline, given the difficulty that some women have in even confirming a pregnancy and then accessing medical care. If you have no money then a pregnancy test from the pharmacy is out of your reach. If you have no reasonable access to health care then even at best you face delay after delay after delay. 

PJ_Soul

As I said, access to abortion issues are the exception IMO.
And obviously the very RARE occurrences when women don't know they're pregnant 4 months into a pregnancy are acceptable excuses in my mind, but let's not pretend that's anything close to normal.
Basically, I'm for common sense. Since I'm not a law maker, I don't really feel obligated to abandon my opinion about 16 weeks for the sake of every single little exception under the sun, nor do I feel married to a 16 week deadline. Hey, maybe after 16 weeks a case-by-case kind of thing could happen, and not in "the American way", lol. I'm talking in an unbiased way.
Actually, I'm really basically fine with anything up to viability outside the womb, which is later than 16 weeks.