Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

jnimhaoileoin

Also that only relates to America? As I said, the situation is completely different in Ireland so you can't just make blanket generalisations

mace1229

jnimhaoileoin said:

mace1229 said:

I thought that was commonly accepted as a very limited number were for medical reasons or rape. 
http://www.actionlife.org/index.php/life-issues/abortion/item/124-the-real-reason-women-choose-abortion

Are you seriously quoting a Pro-Life lobby group? You couldn't at least manage to find an independent source to support your statistics?

Honestly, I didn't even read it. I have never heard anyone claim that rape and medical reasons are anything but a small minority of abortions. A simple google search will give you dozens of results, I simply just linked one out of dozens that gave the same information.
I believe you are the first to ever suggest anything different. 
If you don't like my link and want to go against the flow and believe the majority of abortions are a result of rape and medical necessities, then by all means go on believing that.
The top search result was NY Times and actually said it was only 1%. Feeling you wouldn't believe the 1% I just linked the second or third hit.

https://us.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=iry&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003&type=drg_ir_15_21&param1=1&param2=cat=web&sesid=af8c4a5ea4c29cb645c9993e9eafeaf6&ip=174.24.54.150&b=Chrome&bv=64.0.3282.186&os=Windows-8&os_ver=6.2&pa=dregol&sid=ae00f86b33afbc9bc9bb5d836d734db9&abid=&abg=&a=drg_ir_15_21&cd=2XzuyEtN2Y1L1Qzu0AtD0Azz0C0Dzy0DzztAyBzy0A0A0EyDtN0D0Tzu0StCtBtAyBtN1L2XzutAtFtCtDtFtCtDtFtDtN1L1CzutCyEtBzytDyD1V1StN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2StCtB0D0E0A0EyEtAtGyB0Czy0FtGzy0BtA0EtGtByBtCtDtGtDyCyC0F0FyBtCzy0CtD0Czy2QtN1M1F1B2Z1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyCtByEtByBtDyC0AtG0ByB0FyDtGyEyByCyCtG0AtBtDtCtG0DtAyC0BtA0Dzz0DtA0DyD0D2QtN0A0LzuyE&cr=1850960913&f=4&p=what percent abortion for medical reasons and rape

jnimhaoileoin

mace1229 said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

mace1229 said:

I thought that was commonly accepted as a very limited number were for medical reasons or rape. 
http://www.actionlife.org/index.php/life-issues/abortion/item/124-the-real-reason-women-choose-abortion

Are you seriously quoting a Pro-Life lobby group? You couldn't at least manage to find an independent source to support your statistics?

Honestly, I didn't even read it. I have never heard anyone claim that rape and medical reasons are anything but a small minority of abortions. A simple google search will give you dozens of results, I simply just linked one out of dozens that gave the same information.
I believe you are the first to ever suggest anything different. 
If you don't like my link and want to go against the flow and believe the majority of abortions are a result of rape and medical necessities, then by all means go on believing that.
The top search result was NY Times and actually said it was only 1%. Feeling you wouldn't believe the 1% I just linked the second or third hit.

https://us.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=iry&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003&type=drg_ir_15_21&param1=1&param2=cat=web&sesid=af8c4a5ea4c29cb645c9993e9eafeaf6&ip=174.24.54.150&b=Chrome&bv=64.0.3282.186&os=Windows-8&os_ver=6.2&pa=dregol&sid=ae00f86b33afbc9bc9bb5d836d734db9&abid=&abg=&a=drg_ir_15_21&cd=2XzuyEtN2Y1L1Qzu0AtD0Azz0C0Dzy0DzztAyBzy0A0A0EyDtN0D0Tzu0StCtBtAyBtN1L2XzutAtFtCtDtFtCtDtFtDtN1L1CzutCyEtBzytDyD1V1StN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2StCtB0D0E0A0EyEtAtGyB0Czy0FtGzy0BtA0EtGtByBtCtDtGtDyCyC0F0FyBtCzy0CtD0Czy2QtN1M1F1B2Z1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyCtByEtByBtDyC0AtG0ByB0FyDtGyEyByCyCtG0AtBtDtCtG0DtAyC0BtA0Dzz0DtA0DyD0D2QtN0A0LzuyE&cr=1850960913&f=4&p=what percent abortion for medical reasons and rape

I never ever came near to suggesting that the majority of abortions were due to rape or medical necessity, I simply questioned your own suggestion that they accounted for as low as 1%. In Ireland, the argument for allowing abortion focuses mainly on these issues as we currently force women to go abroad in such cases, as if they were criminals

mace1229

jnimhaoileoin said:

mace1229 said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

mace1229 said:

I thought that was commonly accepted as a very limited number were for medical reasons or rape. 
http://www.actionlife.org/index.php/life-issues/abortion/item/124-the-real-reason-women-choose-abortion

Are you seriously quoting a Pro-Life lobby group? You couldn't at least manage to find an independent source to support your statistics?

Honestly, I didn't even read it. I have never heard anyone claim that rape and medical reasons are anything but a small minority of abortions. A simple google search will give you dozens of results, I simply just linked one out of dozens that gave the same information.
I believe you are the first to ever suggest anything different. 
If you don't like my link and want to go against the flow and believe the majority of abortions are a result of rape and medical necessities, then by all means go on believing that.
The top search result was NY Times and actually said it was only 1%. Feeling you wouldn't believe the 1% I just linked the second or third hit.

https://us.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=iry&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_003&type=drg_ir_15_21&param1=1&param2=cat=web&sesid=af8c4a5ea4c29cb645c9993e9eafeaf6&ip=174.24.54.150&b=Chrome&bv=64.0.3282.186&os=Windows-8&os_ver=6.2&pa=dregol&sid=ae00f86b33afbc9bc9bb5d836d734db9&abid=&abg=&a=drg_ir_15_21&cd=2XzuyEtN2Y1L1Qzu0AtD0Azz0C0Dzy0DzztAyBzy0A0A0EyDtN0D0Tzu0StCtBtAyBtN1L2XzutAtFtCtDtFtCtDtFtDtN1L1CzutCyEtBzytDyD1V1StN1L1G1B1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2StCtB0D0E0A0EyEtAtGyB0Czy0FtGzy0BtA0EtGtByBtCtDtGtDyCyC0F0FyBtCzy0CtD0Czy2QtN1M1F1B2Z1V1N2Y1L1Qzu2SyCtByEtByBtDyC0AtG0ByB0FyDtGyEyByCyCtG0AtBtDtCtG0DtAyC0BtA0Dzz0DtA0DyD0D2QtN0A0LzuyE&cr=1850960913&f=4&p=what percent abortion for medical reasons and rape

I never ever came near to suggesting that the majority of abortions were due to rape or medical necessity, I simply questioned your own suggestion that they accounted for as low as 1%. In Ireland, the argument for allowing abortion focuses mainly on these issues as we currently force women to go abroad in such cases, as if they were criminals

I guess I only came to than assumption when you (I think it was you) referenced someone as having extreme views for ignoring rape and medical reasons when forming their opinions on abortion.
If that were the case, I would agree with that other post. Lets make laws that impact the vast majority, which I believe is about 95% (at the very least, a clear majority), and if needed, make exceptions to accommodate the other 5%.
We've all probably had that job where 1 person abusing the system, so then they crack down and implement new regulations that effect everyone instead of addressing the one person who is at fault. But if someone's argument for pro-choice is "but what about rape, incenst and medical reasons?" that seems to be pretty much the same as that employer who puts new restrictions on sick leave that affect 100 employees instead of addressing the 1 employee that was the problem.

Shyner

Abortion starts in a man. 
So if there's gonna be a change for women than men must stop masturbating .

This means cameras everywhere folks. 
Lots of jobs watching to make sure no one is jerkin around. 

Save sperm it may be the fountain of youth for men . 

brianlux

I can only address the abortion issue from the perspective of a man and that perspective for me is that as a man, I have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body.  Even if I don't like the idea of abortion.  But then, who likes abortions?  Not many, right?  Right.  Very few people like having an abortion.

So assuming abortions are something most people don't want done or have done, what is the answer, (beside the obvious choice of protection)?  I would say, learning and open and honest dialog with anyone old enough to get pregnant or make someone pregnant.  Especially with young adults who, being what they are, get horny and do stuff.   That's when a lot of unwanted pregnancies occur.   You can't tell young people not to screw unless you take extreme, unwarranted or unethical actions- and doing any of those is wrong. 

A lot of young adults are gonna screw.  If they get good open honest information, they are more likely to not end up impregnating or getting pregnant.  The end result: fewer abortions.

And for those who don't get good education, open talk, etc., or are too dumb to follow good advice?  I still say the woman has to make the final choice.

Degeneratefk

drakeheuer14 said:

This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 

I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 

jnimhaoileoin

Degeneratefk said:

drakeheuer14 said:

This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 

I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 

Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 

HughFreakingDillon

i'm in canada and I haven't read the canadian constitution. my perception is that knowing the ins and outs of your country's constitution is fairly unique to america. 

JimmyV

HughFreakingDillon said:

i'm in canada and I haven't read the canadian constitution. my perception is that knowing the ins and outs of your country's constitution is fairly unique to america. 

Not really. Only a few amendments and only the portions that help a person's particular point of view. The parts that hinder that point of view get quickly forgotten.

Degeneratefk

jnimhaoileoin said:

Degeneratefk said:

drakeheuer14 said:

This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 

I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 

Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 

No, I havemt. What does it say?

PJ_Soul

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

I say let a woman do whatever she wants with her body.  It’s definitely not a form of birth control though, that’s super duper fucked up.

It is fucked up, but also rare. Hardly any women do that because abortion is unpleasant as fuck. I think that the whole "using it as birth control" argument as it's used by pro-lifers is misleading, because it gives the impression that this is really common, but it's not.

jnimhaoileoin

Degeneratefk said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Degeneratefk said:

drakeheuer14 said:

This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 

I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 

Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 

No, I havemt. What does it say?

At the moment it basically recognises the rights of the 'unborn' from the moment of conception (abortion is illegal here, under any circumstances). We're having a referendum this year to hopefully sort it out and drag us into the 21st century

mace1229

PJ_Soul said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

I say let a woman do whatever she wants with her body.  It’s definitely not a form of birth control though, that’s super duper fucked up.

It is fucked up, but also rare. Hardly any women do that because abortion is unpleasant as fuck. I think that the whole "using it as birth control" argument as it's used by pro-lifers is misleading, because it gives the impression that this is really common, but it's not.

What would you consider for birth control?
Every source I've ever seen puts things like rape, incenst, medical needs anywhere from about 2 or 3% to about 7 or 8% tops of abortions.
The most common factors are financial, not ready to have a baby, don't want another baby and so on. Those factors easily make up the majority of abortions. Do you not consider that for "birth control"?
I don't see how that is misleading at all.
If that isn't "birth control," to stop an unwanted and unintended pregnancy from consensual sex, then what is?

Degeneratefk

jnimhaoileoin said:

Degeneratefk said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Degeneratefk said:

drakeheuer14 said:

This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 

I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 

Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 

No, I havemt. What does it say?

At the moment it basically recognises the rights of the 'unborn' from the moment of conception (abortion is illegal here, under any circumstances). We're having a referendum this year to hopefully sort it out and drag us into the 21st century

How do women's rights groups react to that kind of amendment? I see that and immediately think "can women vote in ireland?" Clearly a sarcastic remark. But how was that vote cast in your "congress?" Does Ireland have many women politicians?

HughFreakingDillon

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

I say let a woman do whatever she wants with her body.  It’s definitely not a form of birth control though, that’s super duper fucked up.

It is fucked up, but also rare. Hardly any women do that because abortion is unpleasant as fuck. I think that the whole "using it as birth control" argument as it's used by pro-lifers is misleading, because it gives the impression that this is really common, but it's not.

What would you consider for birth control?
Every source I've ever seen puts things like rape, incenst, medical needs anywhere from about 2 or 3% to about 7 or 8% tops of abortions.
The most common factors are financial, not ready to have a baby, don't want another baby and so on. Those factors easily make up the majority of abortions. Do you not consider that for "birth control"?
I don't see how that is misleading at all.
If that isn't "birth control," to stop an unwanted and unintended pregnancy from consensual sex, then what is?

my take is what they mean is this: "using it as a form of birth control" is when a woman decides not to use birth control (condoms, the pill, rhythm method, etc), knowing full well she can have an abortion should the need arise. this is different from someone who uses birth control methods, whatever that may be, and gets pregnant accidentally. 

wobbler_kitty

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

I say let a woman do whatever she wants with her body.  It’s definitely not a form of birth control though, that’s super duper fucked up.

It is fucked up, but also rare. Hardly any women do that because abortion is unpleasant as fuck. I think that the whole "using it as birth control" argument as it's used by pro-lifers is misleading, because it gives the impression that this is really common, but it's not.

What would you consider for birth control?
Every source I've ever seen puts things like rape, incenst, medical needs anywhere from about 2 or 3% to about 7 or 8% tops of abortions.
The most common factors are financial, not ready to have a baby, don't want another baby and so on. Those factors easily make up the majority of abortions. Do you not consider that for "birth control"?
I don't see how that is misleading at all.
If that isn't "birth control," to stop an unwanted and unintended pregnancy from consensual sex, then what is?

Using it as birth control, meaning, the woman doesn’t use any form of preventative during sex. ie: condoms, the pill, IUD, etc. Basically taking their chances having unprotected sex and if pregnancy happens to result, having an abortion.

I’m confident in saying that women using abortion as a birth control method is an extremely low percentage of overall abortions. Not only would it cost significantly more than normal birth control, there are also STD’s and PID to consider, as well as risk of inability to conceive in the future.

Ledbetterman10

Of all the American political ideologies, conservatives being anti-abortion is the most mind-numbing to me. I'll elaborate with this hypothetical scenario:

Girl: I'm pregnant but have no means to support a child. Can I get an abortion?

Republican Dude: You want to murder your unborn child? I can't allow it. What would God think of that?

Girl: Umm...okay. Well then can I get some welfare money and food stamps so I can feed and clothe this child that I can't afford but you're making me have?

Republican Dude: I'm sorry but that's a question for the democrats. We only deal in unborn children. After you have the child, I don't care what you do with it. Kill it if you want. You can borrow my gun.

Girl: So you care if the child dies before it's born but don't care if it dies after it's born?

Republican Dude: I care. I'm just not going to help you with the kid after it's born.

Girl: So you don't care.

Republican Dude: Fine...I guess not.

jnimhaoileoin

Degeneratefk said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Degeneratefk said:

jnimhaoileoin said:

Degeneratefk said:

drakeheuer14 said:

This is a hard subject. I really hate that abortion is even a thing or an option to be discussed. 

Nothing will ever change my mind that it is just plain wrong though. Even if you believe that it isnt a child at whatever stage, they should have every right to develop into one after conceived. 

Buy some damn condoms if you don’t want a kid. 

Edit: I don’t condemn those that do it or hate anyone for it. It just upsets me. 

I've never read ANY document that gives a cluster of cells or a fetus rights to anything. 

Clearly you haven't read the Irish constitution 

No, I havemt. What does it say?

At the moment it basically recognises the rights of the 'unborn' from the moment of conception (abortion is illegal here, under any circumstances). We're having a referendum this year to hopefully sort it out and drag us into the 21st century

How do women's rights groups react to that kind of amendment? I see that and immediately think "can women vote in ireland?" Clearly a sarcastic remark. But how was that vote cast in your "congress?" Does Ireland have many women politicians?

***sorry couldn't get my reply outside the quote


It wasn't parliament, only the people of Ireland can make a change to the constitution. So what happened was that contraception was illegal in Ireland up to the 80's. When that was legalised, they got worried that it could lead to a legal challenge to the prohibition of abortion, which stood in the original constitution of 1937. So they put it to the people, who in their Catholic wisdom decided to firm up the language criminalising abortion. That was the 8th Anendment. Then in 1993, after the X Case, there was a further referendum and this time the Irish people were given the opportunity to approve the addition of two paragraphs to the 8th allowing access to information on services abroad and allowing Irish citizens to travel to a foreign state for an abortion. Now the campaign is to repeal the 8th and the debate is what to put in its place i.e. do we allow unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks (that's pretty much as far as this is ever likely to go) or do we limit it to cases of rape, fatal foetal abnormality or threat to the life of the mother.

Time will tell but you can imagine it's quite a divisive topic. A recent anti-abortion campaign used posters of children with Downs Syndrome, suggesting repealing the 8th was encouraging eugenics and a step on the path to unlimited abortion on demand. They were practically comparing it to genocide

mace1229

wobbler_kitty said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

RoleModelsinBlood31 said:

I say let a woman do whatever she wants with her body.  It’s definitely not a form of birth control though, that’s super duper fucked up.

It is fucked up, but also rare. Hardly any women do that because abortion is unpleasant as fuck. I think that the whole "using it as birth control" argument as it's used by pro-lifers is misleading, because it gives the impression that this is really common, but it's not.

What would you consider for birth control?
Every source I've ever seen puts things like rape, incenst, medical needs anywhere from about 2 or 3% to about 7 or 8% tops of abortions.
The most common factors are financial, not ready to have a baby, don't want another baby and so on. Those factors easily make up the majority of abortions. Do you not consider that for "birth control"?
I don't see how that is misleading at all.
If that isn't "birth control," to stop an unwanted and unintended pregnancy from consensual sex, then what is?

Using it as birth control, meaning, the woman doesn’t use any form of preventative during sex. ie: condoms, the pill, IUD, etc. Basically taking their chances having unprotected sex and if pregnancy happens to result, having an abortion.

I’m confident in saying that women using abortion as a birth control method is an extremely low percentage of overall abortions. Not only would it cost significantly more than normal birth control, there are also STD’s and PID to consider, as well as risk of inability to conceive in the future.

I would also predict that number to be very low, those who purposefully ignore all other forms just because they know abortion is an option.
But I would also consider those who are careless, maybe because they thought that the timing was wrong and could not get pregnant, maybe were drunk, maybe ran out of condoms and thought just this one time is okay. Maybe the spermicide requires them to wait 15 minutes and they only waited 10 and thought it was close enough.  I'd lump all those into the "birth control" category and I would predict that is a much more significant number.