The agreement hammered out with state and local governments and victims would provide billions of dollars to combat the opioid epidemic. The Sacklers would contribute up to $6 billion and give up ownership, and the company would emerge from bankruptcy as a different entity, with its profits used for treatment and prevention.
But the justices put the settlement on hold during the summer, in response to objections from the Biden administration.
The issue for the justices is whether the legal shield that bankruptcy provides can be extended to people such as the Sacklers, who have not declared bankruptcy themselves. Lower courts have issued conflicting decisions over that issue, which also has implications for other major product liability lawsuits settled through the bankruptcy system.
The U.S. Bankruptcy Trustee, an arm of the Justice Department, contends that the bankruptcy law does not permit protecting the Sackler family from being sued by people who are not part of the settlement. During the Trump administration, the government supported the settlement.
Proponents of the plan said third-party releases are sometimes necessary to forge an agreement, and federal law imposes no prohibition against them.
Lawyers for more than 60,000 victims who support the settlement called it “a watershed moment in the opioid crisis,” while recognizing that “no amount of money could fully compensate” victims for the damage caused by the misleading marketing of OxyContin, a powerful prescription painkiller.
A lawyer for a victim who opposes the settlement calls the provision dealing with the Sacklers "special protection for billionaires.”
OxyContin first hit the market in 1996, and Purdue Pharma’s aggressive marketing of it is often cited as a catalyst of the nationwide opioid epidemic, persuading doctors to prescribe painkillers with less regard for addiction dangers.
The drug and the Stamford, Connecticut-based company became synonymous with the crisis, even though the majority of pills being prescribed and used were generic drugs. Opioid-related overdose deaths have continued to climb, hitting 80,000 in recent years. Most of those are from fentanyl and other synthetic drugs.
The Purdue Pharma settlement would be among the largest reached by drug companies, wholesalers and pharmacies to resolve epidemic-related lawsuits filed by state, local and Native American tribal governments and others. Those settlements have totaled more than $50 billion.
But the Purdue Pharma settlement would be one of only two so far that include direct payments to victims from a $750 million pool. Payouts are expected to range from about $3,500 to $48,000.
Sackler family members no longer are on the company's board, and they have not received payouts from it since before Purdue Pharma entered bankruptcy. In the decade before that, though, they were paid more than $10 billion, about half of which family members said went to pay taxes.
A decision in Harrington v. Purdue Pharma, 22-859, is expected by early summer.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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Treasury creates new strike force as US and China pursue crackdown on illicit fentanyl trafficking
By FATIMA HUSSEIN
Today
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Treasury Department on Monday announced a new strike force to help combat illicit fentanyl trafficking as the U.S. and China step up efforts to stop the movement of the powerful opioid and drug-making materials into the U.S.
The Counter-Fentanyl Strike Force will bring together personnel and intelligence from throughout the Treasury Department — from its sanctions and intelligence arms to IRS Criminal Investigations — to more effectively collaborate on stopping the flow of drugs into the country.
The creation of the group is the beginning of the Biden administration's plan to redouble its efforts to stem the tide of illegal fentanyl after President Joe Biden and Chinese President Xi Jinping met in California in November. At the meeting, they announced that China is telling its chemical companies to curtail shipments of the materials used to produce fentanyl to Latin America.
China has also resumed sharing information about suspected trafficking with an international database.
Mexico and China are the primary source countries for fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances trafficked directly into the U.S., according to the Drug Enforcement Administration. Nearly all the precursor chemicals that are needed to make fentanyl are coming from China.
Among other things, the Treasury task force will analyze the financial flows of trafficking organizations, especially those that rely on cryptocurrency to move funds; work with local law enforcement in areas hardest hit by the fentanyl epidemic and use financial institution records to detect transactions related to drug and human smuggling.
“Combating the flow of deadly fentanyl into communities across the United States is a top priority for President Biden as well as the Treasury Department,” Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen in a statement. She said the new group will "allow us to bring the department’s unrivaled expertise in fighting financial crime to bear against this deadly epidemic.”
"Treasury will use every tool at its disposal to disrupt the ability of drug traffickers to peddle this poison in our country.”
The Biden administration has taken a slew of actions against fentanyl traffickers — charging powerful traffickers with drug and money laundering offenses and announcing indictments and sanctions against Chinese companies and executives blamed for importing the chemicals used to make the dangerous drug.
Still, fentanyl is the deadliest drug in the U.S. today. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that 71,000 people died from overdosing on synthetic opioids such as fentanyl in 2021, up from almost 58,000 in 2020.
The death toll is more than 10 times as many drug deaths as in 1988, at the height of the crack epidemic.
U.S. lawmakers have proposed a variety of measures to combat fentanyl's explosive use in the U.S.
Many of the GOP presidential candidates have said they would use military force against Mexico in response to the trafficking of fentanyl and other synthetic opioids.
And the leaders of the Senate Banking and Armed Services Committees, along with others, want to compel the Biden administration to declare international fentanyl trafficking a national emergency and pass legislation that would hold Treasury to reporting requirements and enable the president to confiscate sanctioned property of fentanyl traffickers to use for law enforcement efforts.
Treasury officials, including Brian Nelson, the department's undersecretary for terrorism and financial intelligence, have been traveling to the southern border this year to work with local authorities on quelling drug trafficking through sanctions efforts.
Nelson will co-chair the strike force with IRS Criminal Investigations Chief Jim Lee.
Nelson said the strike force "will act quickly and decisively with the top specialists from across the department to nimbly respond to the newest threats.”
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
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Supreme Court appears torn during Purdue opioid settlement arguments By Robert Barnes and David Ovalle December 04, 2023 at 13:59 ET The Supreme Court on Monday seemed torn about both the merits and the legality of a proposed Purdue Pharma bankruptcy plan that would allocate billions of dollars to help ease the nation’s opioid crisis, but also shield the family that owns the company from future lawsuits. Justices across the ideological spectrum asked tough questions of lawyers from the Justice Department, which opposes the deal, and attorneys for Purdue and the vast number of parties that have an interest in the outcome. Those parties say unraveling the settlement plan would leave some victims with nothing. “Forget a better deal — there is no other deal,” said Washington lawyer Pratik Shah, who represents the interests of states, hospitals, tribes, insurance companies, individual victims and other creditors who agreed to the settlement. But Curtis E. Gannon, representing the Justice Department, said that claim already has been proven untrue. After some states and individuals objected to a previous version of the plan, he said, the Sackler family — which owns Purdue — ponied up more cash, increasing their contributions from more than $4 billion to about $6 billion, to be paid over nearly two decades. Gannon said another settlement could be worked out that doesn’t necessarily involve releases or bankruptcy. “We do hope there is another deal at the end of this,” he said. [See how deeply opioid pills flooded your U.S. community] Purdue declared bankruptcy in 2019, as it faced thousands of lawsuits and allegations that the company helped fuel the opioid crisis by the marketing of its blockbuster painkiller OxyContin. But members of the Sackler family did not themselves file for bankruptcy.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Consulting firm McKinsey agrees to $78 million settlement with insurers over opioids
By DEE-ANN DURBIN
30 Dec 2023
Consulting firm McKinsey and Co. has agreed to pay $78 million to settle claims from insurers and health care funds that its work with drug companies helped fuel an opioid addiction crisis.
The agreement was revealed late Friday in documents filed in federal court in San Francisco. The settlement must still be approved by a judge.
Under the agreement, McKinsey would establish a fund to reimburse insurers, private benefit plans and others for some or all of their prescription opioid costs.
The insurers argued that McKinsey worked with Purdue Pharma – the maker of OxyContin – to create and employ aggressive marketing and sales tactics to overcome doctors’ reservations about the highly addictive drugs. Insurers said that forced them to pay for prescription opioids rather than safer, non-addictive and lower-cost drugs, including over-the-counter pain medication. They also had to pay for the opioid addiction treatment that followed.
From 1999 to 2021, nearly 280,000 people in the U.S. died from overdoses of prescription opioids, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. Insurers argued that McKinsey worked with Purdue Pharma even after the extent of the opioid crisis was apparent.
The settlement is the latest in a years-long effort to hold McKinsey accountable for its role in the opioid epidemic. In February 2021, the company agreed to pay nearly $600 million to U.S. states, the District of Columbia and five U.S. territories. In September, the company announced a separate, $230 million settlement agreement with school districts and local governments.
Asked for comment Saturday, McKinsey referred to a statement it released in September.
“As we have stated previously, we continue to believe that our past work was lawful and deny allegations to the contrary,” the company said, adding that it reached a settlement to avoid protracted litigation.
McKinsey said it stopped advising clients on any opioid-related business in 2019.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Consulting firm McKinsey agrees to $78 million settlement with insurers over opioids
By DEE-ANN DURBIN
30 Dec 2023
Consulting firm McKinsey and Co. has agreed to pay $78 million to settle claims from insurers and health care funds that its work with drug companies helped fuel an opioid addiction crisis.
The agreement was revealed late Friday in documents filed in federal court in San Francisco. The settlement must still be approved by a judge.
Under the agreement, McKinsey would establish a fund to reimburse insurers, private benefit plans and others for some or all of their prescription opioid costs.
The insurers argued that McKinsey worked with Purdue Pharma – the maker of OxyContin – to create and employ aggressive marketing and sales tactics to overcome doctors’ reservations about the highly addictive drugs. Insurers said that forced them to pay for prescription opioids rather than safer, non-addictive and lower-cost drugs, including over-the-counter pain medication. They also had to pay for the opioid addiction treatment that followed.
From 1999 to 2021, nearly 280,000 people in the U.S. died from overdoses of prescription opioids, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. Insurers argued that McKinsey worked with Purdue Pharma even after the extent of the opioid crisis was apparent.
The settlement is the latest in a years-long effort to hold McKinsey accountable for its role in the opioid epidemic. In February 2021, the company agreed to pay nearly $600 million to U.S. states, the District of Columbia and five U.S. territories. In September, the company announced a separate, $230 million settlement agreement with school districts and local governments.
Asked for comment Saturday, McKinsey referred to a statement it released in September.
“As we have stated previously, we continue to believe that our past work was lawful and deny allegations to the contrary,” the company said, adding that it reached a settlement to avoid protracted litigation.
McKinsey said it stopped advising clients on any opioid-related business in 2019.
I wonder how much of this money will go to the families? They were the ones left w heartaches, not the insurers...
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement By David Ovalle and Justin Jouvenal June 27, 2024 at 12:55 ET A divided Supreme Court on Thursday blocked a controversial proposed Purdue Pharma bankruptcy plan that would have provided billions of dollars to help address the nation’s opioid crisis in exchange for protecting the family that owns the company from future lawsuits. The court ruled that U.S. bankruptcy code does not allow a court to shield the Sackler family, which owns the company and had agreed to pay up to $6 billion over 18 years as part of the plan, from future opioid lawsuits. Family members did not file for bankruptcy themselves. The ruling marks the latest chapter in the national reckoning over the role of drugmakers such as Purdue and other companies in igniting the epidemic of addiction and overdoses. The decision means states and other parties suing Purdue will restart negotiations. The ruling could also affect major settlements in other cases approved through bankruptcy courts. In a 5-4 decision that scrambled ideological lines on the Supreme Court, the majority found the plan was invalid because all the affected parties had not been consulted on the deal.
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
So fentanyl consumption by Americans will decline once he’s in office? He can seal the border completely shut and the American dealers will still be able to get it to sell it to the neighbors kids
Elton John, who has been sober since 1990, believes marijuana never should’ve been legalized. “I maintain that it’s addictive,” he said in a new interview with Time, which named him Icon of the Year. “It leads to other drugs. And when you’re stoned — and I’ve been stoned — you don’t think normally. Legalizing marijuana in America and Canada is one of the greatest mistakes of all time.”
He's right, you know. Pot is one of the most psychologically addictive substances there is. Decriminalization, yes. Legalization, no.
Elton John, who has been sober since 1990, believes marijuana never should’ve been legalized. “I maintain that it’s addictive,” he said in a new interview with Time, which named him Icon of the Year. “It leads to other drugs. And when you’re stoned — and I’ve been stoned — you don’t think normally. Legalizing marijuana in America and Canada is one of the greatest mistakes of all time.”
He's right, you know. Pot is one of the most psychologically addictive substances there is. Decriminalization, yes. Legalization, no.
declarative statement from you. have real world experience? guessing no.
psychological habitual use can be broken and redirected more readily than physical addtion.
cigarettes or rather nicotine is the most psychologically AND physically addictive substances.
Elton is coming from the addicts point of view. He should have confined his statement to his belief about himself.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
It's dumb to come out against marijuana legalization when alcohol, gambling and smoking are all legal. One could also argue that porn leads to more sexual deviance or video games lead to violence. It's true, but also dependent on the circumstances of the individual and their ability to regulate behavior and consumption of said catalyst. The spiral can be applied to endless amounts of sources in our lives.
Elton John, who has been sober since 1990, believes marijuana never should’ve been legalized. “I maintain that it’s addictive,” he said in a new interview with Time, which named him Icon of the Year. “It leads to other drugs. And when you’re stoned — and I’ve been stoned — you don’t think normally. Legalizing marijuana in America and Canada is one of the greatest mistakes of all time.”
He's right, you know. Pot is one of the most psychologically addictive substances there is. Decriminalization, yes. Legalization, no.
Simple ? What kills more people per year 1- pot smokers 2- drunks and can someone tell Elton John that retiring means take your ass home!
Most of the focus regarding impaired driving goes to drunk driving. But what about drugged driving? More specifically, what about marijuana-impaired driving? This is a growing problem across America.
Unfortunately, as marijuana legalization increases, this could become the next big killer on our roads. What is the data behind this growing problem? And what can be done to prevent people from dying on the streets because of marijuana-impaired driving?
Marijuana Drugged Driving Statistics
When people get high and then get behind the wheel of a car, they take on a great deal of risk, not only for themselves but also for everyone else on the road. As marijuana legalization has increased, the rate of marijuana-impaired traffic accidents has also increased. And to make matters even worse, the rate of marijuana-related traffic deaths has gone up as well. In 2018, about 12 million Americans, or 4.7 percent of the population that’s over the age of 16, drove under the influence of marijuana.1 About 2.3 million (or roughly 0.9 percent of that same age group) drove a vehicle under the influence of illicit drugs other than marijuana in 2018. The fraction of fatal accidents in which at least one driver tested positive for THC has shot up in states that legalized marijuana.2 For example, from 2013 to 2016, the fraction of fatal accidents in which at least one driver tested positive for THC increased nationwide by an average of 10 percent. But for Colorado and Washington, two states that legalized marijuana in 2014, the result was much different. During the same period, Colorado’s marijuana-related traffic death rate shot up 92 percent, and Washington’s increased by 28 percent. Since 2016, marijuana-related traffic deaths have leveled out in both Colorado and Washington. Such deaths are still higher than the national average, but the statistics are no longer spiking. However, the point of concern here is that both states legalized marijuana, and both states experienced a shocking increase in marijuana-influenced traffic deaths immediately afterward. Another report suggests that, in 2016, 54 percent of fatally injured drivers tested positive for drugs, with at least half of them having marijuana in their systems at the time of the accident.3 In 2016, about 5,300 drug-influenced drivers died in car accidents. And that is not taking into account other innocent victims of those car crashes; that’s just the intoxicated drivers themselves. And of those 5,300, at least 38 percent had marijuana in their bodies at the time of the accident.
Another concerning factor is that, while it is well known how dangerous it is to drive under the influence of alcohol, many people who use marijuana believe that they can smoke pot and drive safely. A Colorado survey found that at least 69 percent of marijuana users in that state drove under the influence of marijuana at least once in the year leading up to the study, and 27 percent said they drove high almost every day. Many of the survey respondents said that they didn’t think marijuana had a negative effect on their ability to drive safely. But in the same year leading up to the survey, 51 people died in Colorado from marijuana-impaired driving. Not only is marijuana-impaired driving a growing problem, but it is a lethal problem. And to make matters worse, law enforcement officers do not yet possess the proper testing technology to test for marijuana-impaired driving! So the current testing methodology is not nearly as efficient as it needs to be. And last but not least, many marijuana users erroneously believe that they can use marijuana and drive safely. This is a multifaceted problem. It needs to be solved as soon as possible to preserve the lives of those on the roads.
Curbing Legalization to Keep the Roads Safe
To preserve life and keep the roads safe, it would be a good idea to curb the legalization of marijuana. Of course, there are many other reasons why states might not want to legalize this substance. But it seems that just the life and death factor of marijuana-influenced driving alone would be enough to discourage legalization. Case in point, it seems as though the states that legalized experienced the highest surges in marijuana-related traffic fatalities. And while the casualties appeared to level out several years after legalization in each state, the first few years following legalization were particularly lethal. If even just one person dies on the roads because of marijuana-impaired driving, is it really a good idea to continue legalizing the substance?
Seeking Treatment for Addiction
Marijuana use can lead to marijuana dependence, a condition in which an individual compulsively uses marijuana and cannot seem to stop. Furthermore, marijuana use often ends up going hand in hand with other types of substance abuse too, such as alcohol misuse or an addiction to narcotics. Without a doubt, marijuana-influenced driving is not the only risk factor attendant with marijuana use. If you have a spouse, son, daughter, grandchild, parent, grandparent, sibling, partner, loved one, friend, or coworker who uses drugs, please do your best to get them into a drug and alcohol addiction treatment center as soon as possible. Even a drug like marijuana, which is said not to be as harmful as other drugs, can be lethal. There is no such thing as “safe” drug use, and there is never a good reason to experiment with drugs. Narconon offers a pathway to freedom from addiction, a route to a drug-free life. At Narconon, people don’t have to be “addicts for life.” Anyone can live a drug-free life. No one has to be shackled to the label of “substance abuser” forever. Let Narconon help your loved one get to the bottom of the issues driving them to use drugs. Let Narconon help your loved one find and implement the tools they need to live life without resorting to mind-altering substances.
Sources:
Alejandro Azofeifa, DDS, et al. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, “Driving Under the Influence of Marijuana and Illicit Drugs Among Persons Aged ≥16 Years—United States, 2018”. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR)↩︎
Benjamin Hansen University of Oregon, NBER, IZA, et al. (2018) “Early Evidence on Recreational Marijuana Legalization and Traffic Fatalities”. University of Oregon Report (pdf)↩︎
Jenni Bergal Stateline Article, Pew Charitable Trusts, (2018) “Drugged Driving Deaths Spike With Spread of Legal Marijuana, Opioid Abuse”. See Article↩︎
Most of the focus regarding impaired driving goes to drunk driving. But what about drugged driving? More specifically, what about marijuana-impaired driving? This is a growing problem across America.
Unfortunately, as marijuana legalization increases, this could become the next big killer on our roads. What is the data behind this growing problem? And what can be done to prevent people from dying on the streets because of marijuana-impaired driving?
Marijuana Drugged Driving Statistics
When people get high and then get behind the wheel of a car, they take on a great deal of risk, not only for themselves but also for everyone else on the road. As marijuana legalization has increased, the rate of marijuana-impaired traffic accidents has also increased. And to make matters even worse, the rate of marijuana-related traffic deaths has gone up as well. In 2018, about 12 million Americans, or 4.7 percent of the population that’s over the age of 16, drove under the influence of marijuana.1 About 2.3 million (or roughly 0.9 percent of that same age group) drove a vehicle under the influence of illicit drugs other than marijuana in 2018. The fraction of fatal accidents in which at least one driver tested positive for THC has shot up in states that legalized marijuana.2 For example, from 2013 to 2016, the fraction of fatal accidents in which at least one driver tested positive for THC increased nationwide by an average of 10 percent. But for Colorado and Washington, two states that legalized marijuana in 2014, the result was much different. During the same period, Colorado’s marijuana-related traffic death rate shot up 92 percent, and Washington’s increased by 28 percent. Since 2016, marijuana-related traffic deaths have leveled out in both Colorado and Washington. Such deaths are still higher than the national average, but the statistics are no longer spiking. However, the point of concern here is that both states legalized marijuana, and both states experienced a shocking increase in marijuana-influenced traffic deaths immediately afterward. Another report suggests that, in 2016, 54 percent of fatally injured drivers tested positive for drugs, with at least half of them having marijuana in their systems at the time of the accident.3 In 2016, about 5,300 drug-influenced drivers died in car accidents. And that is not taking into account other innocent victims of those car crashes; that’s just the intoxicated drivers themselves. And of those 5,300, at least 38 percent had marijuana in their bodies at the time of the accident.
Another concerning factor is that, while it is well known how dangerous it is to drive under the influence of alcohol, many people who use marijuana believe that they can smoke pot and drive safely. A Colorado survey found that at least 69 percent of marijuana users in that state drove under the influence of marijuana at least once in the year leading up to the study, and 27 percent said they drove high almost every day. Many of the survey respondents said that they didn’t think marijuana had a negative effect on their ability to drive safely. But in the same year leading up to the survey, 51 people died in Colorado from marijuana-impaired driving. Not only is marijuana-impaired driving a growing problem, but it is a lethal problem. And to make matters worse, law enforcement officers do not yet possess the proper testing technology to test for marijuana-impaired driving! So the current testing methodology is not nearly as efficient as it needs to be. And last but not least, many marijuana users erroneously believe that they can use marijuana and drive safely. This is a multifaceted problem. It needs to be solved as soon as possible to preserve the lives of those on the roads.
Curbing Legalization to Keep the Roads Safe
To preserve life and keep the roads safe, it would be a good idea to curb the legalization of marijuana. Of course, there are many other reasons why states might not want to legalize this substance. But it seems that just the life and death factor of marijuana-influenced driving alone would be enough to discourage legalization. Case in point, it seems as though the states that legalized experienced the highest surges in marijuana-related traffic fatalities. And while the casualties appeared to level out several years after legalization in each state, the first few years following legalization were particularly lethal. If even just one person dies on the roads because of marijuana-impaired driving, is it really a good idea to continue legalizing the substance?
Seeking Treatment for Addiction
Marijuana use can lead to marijuana dependence, a condition in which an individual compulsively uses marijuana and cannot seem to stop. Furthermore, marijuana use often ends up going hand in hand with other types of substance abuse too, such as alcohol misuse or an addiction to narcotics. Without a doubt, marijuana-influenced driving is not the only risk factor attendant with marijuana use. If you have a spouse, son, daughter, grandchild, parent, grandparent, sibling, partner, loved one, friend, or coworker who uses drugs, please do your best to get them into a drug and alcohol addiction treatment center as soon as possible. Even a drug like marijuana, which is said not to be as harmful as other drugs, can be lethal. There is no such thing as “safe” drug use, and there is never a good reason to experiment with drugs. Narconon offers a pathway to freedom from addiction, a route to a drug-free life. At Narconon, people don’t have to be “addicts for life.” Anyone can live a drug-free life. No one has to be shackled to the label of “substance abuser” forever. Let Narconon help your loved one get to the bottom of the issues driving them to use drugs. Let Narconon help your loved one find and implement the tools they need to live life without resorting to mind-altering substances.
Sources:
Alejandro Azofeifa, DDS, et al. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, “Driving Under the Influence of Marijuana and Illicit Drugs Among Persons Aged ≥16 Years—United States, 2018”. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR)↩︎
Benjamin Hansen University of Oregon, NBER, IZA, et al. (2018) “Early Evidence on Recreational Marijuana Legalization and Traffic Fatalities”. University of Oregon Report (pdf)↩︎
Jenni Bergal Stateline Article, Pew Charitable Trusts, (2018) “Drugged Driving Deaths Spike With Spread of Legal Marijuana, Opioid Abuse”. See Article↩︎
Do you want alcohol to be illegal too?
Wrigley 7/19/2013 Philadelphia 10/22/2013 Baltimore 10/27/2013 Hampton 4/18/2016 Ft. Worth 9/13/2023 Ft. Worth 9/15/2023 Wrigley 8/31/2024 Baltimore 9/12/2024 Fenway 9/15/2024
Idiots think weed just came into existence this past 10 years 😂 I guess you weren’t around in the 60’s or 70’s! You can put up all the bullshit article you want but the numbers speak for themselves Drunk drivers kill more people than weed smoking drivers but lag behind on gun violence specifically kids getting killed by guns
Endo’s End Around: How One of the Nation’s Largest Opioid Makers Escaped a $7 Billion Federal Penalty by Bob Fernandez and Craig R. McCoy for The Philadelphia Inquirer Dec. 17, 5 a.m. EST Change Appearance Republish Co-published with The Philadelphia Inquirer
This article was produced in partnership with The Philadelphia Inquirer, which was a member of ProPublica’s Local Reporting Network in 2020-21. Sign up for Dispatches to get stories like this one as soon as they are published. Reporting Highlights
Delayed Justice: After a whistleblower exposed the criminal behavior of Endo, a drug manufacturer, the Justice Department waited more than a decade to bring charges against the company. A Steep Discount: Federal agencies said Endo owed up to $7 billion in criminal fines, back taxes and other charges. The government settled this year for just $200 million. Winners and Losers: Endo is still selling narcotics. Lawyers made $350 million. A few executives shared $95 million in bonuses. Thousands of opioid victims are to share $40 million.
These highlights were written by the reporters and editors who worked on this story.
This spring, the Justice Department announced a major victory against a drug firm that manufactured billions of opioid painkillers. Endo Health Solutions, the agency said, would face $1.5 billion in fines and forfeitures and plead guilty to a corporate criminal charge.
Prosecutors said the massive fine would hold accountable a suburban Philadelphia company that profited by “misrepresenting the safety of their opioid products and using reckless marketing tactics to increase sales.”
But in the end, federal prosecutors offered far friendlier terms than those trumpeted by the agency.
Endo would not have to pay the $1.5 billion in criminal penalties, which was already a deep discount from the billions federal officials said Endo owed for dodging taxes and driving up Medicare costs.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Court records show that lawyers, mediators, and others have been paid nearly $1 billion by Purdue Pharma in the bankruptcy case so far.
I watched this last night.
We discussed this possibly being a money grab for the states and it wouldn't help the people whom it should have gone to.
When the pharmacies have their hands out for supposed negligence, something i disagree with, then you know its bad.
Hearing the Sacklers on the stand stating they didn't think their drug was any worse then the others had me wondering. They aren't all doctors are they? Why would they know that? I guess that is the crux of the argument. What did they actually know?
Comments
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court on Monday is hearing arguments over a nationwide settlement with OxyContin maker Purdue Pharma that would shield members of the Sackler family who own the company from civil lawsuits over the toll of opioids.
The agreement hammered out with state and local governments and victims would provide billions of dollars to combat the opioid epidemic. The Sacklers would contribute up to $6 billion and give up ownership, and the company would emerge from bankruptcy as a different entity, with its profits used for treatment and prevention.
But the justices put the settlement on hold during the summer, in response to objections from the Biden administration.
The issue for the justices is whether the legal shield that bankruptcy provides can be extended to people such as the Sacklers, who have not declared bankruptcy themselves. Lower courts have issued conflicting decisions over that issue, which also has implications for other major product liability lawsuits settled through the bankruptcy system.
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The U.S. Bankruptcy Trustee, an arm of the Justice Department, contends that the bankruptcy law does not permit protecting the Sackler family from being sued by people who are not part of the settlement. During the Trump administration, the government supported the settlement.
Proponents of the plan said third-party releases are sometimes necessary to forge an agreement, and federal law imposes no prohibition against them.
Lawyers for more than 60,000 victims who support the settlement called it “a watershed moment in the opioid crisis,” while recognizing that “no amount of money could fully compensate” victims for the damage caused by the misleading marketing of OxyContin, a powerful prescription painkiller.
A lawyer for a victim who opposes the settlement calls the provision dealing with the Sacklers "special protection for billionaires.”
OxyContin first hit the market in 1996, and Purdue Pharma’s aggressive marketing of it is often cited as a catalyst of the nationwide opioid epidemic, persuading doctors to prescribe painkillers with less regard for addiction dangers.
The drug and the Stamford, Connecticut-based company became synonymous with the crisis, even though the majority of pills being prescribed and used were generic drugs. Opioid-related overdose deaths have continued to climb, hitting 80,000 in recent years. Most of those are from fentanyl and other synthetic drugs.
The Purdue Pharma settlement would be among the largest reached by drug companies, wholesalers and pharmacies to resolve epidemic-related lawsuits filed by state, local and Native American tribal governments and others. Those settlements have totaled more than $50 billion.
But the Purdue Pharma settlement would be one of only two so far that include direct payments to victims from a $750 million pool. Payouts are expected to range from about $3,500 to $48,000.
Sackler family members no longer are on the company's board, and they have not received payouts from it since before Purdue Pharma entered bankruptcy. In the decade before that, though, they were paid more than $10 billion, about half of which family members said went to pay taxes.
A decision in Harrington v. Purdue Pharma, 22-859, is expected by early summer.
___
Follow the AP's coverage of the U.S. Supreme Court at https://apnews.com/hub/us-supreme-court.
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WASHINGTON (AP) — The Treasury Department on Monday announced a new strike force to help combat illicit fentanyl trafficking as the U.S. and China step up efforts to stop the movement of the powerful opioid and drug-making materials into the U.S.
The Counter-Fentanyl Strike Force will bring together personnel and intelligence from throughout the Treasury Department — from its sanctions and intelligence arms to IRS Criminal Investigations — to more effectively collaborate on stopping the flow of drugs into the country.
The creation of the group is the beginning of the Biden administration's plan to redouble its efforts to stem the tide of illegal fentanyl after President Joe Biden and Chinese President Xi Jinping met in California in November. At the meeting, they announced that China is telling its chemical companies to curtail shipments of the materials used to produce fentanyl to Latin America.
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China has also resumed sharing information about suspected trafficking with an international database.
Mexico and China are the primary source countries for fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances trafficked directly into the U.S., according to the Drug Enforcement Administration. Nearly all the precursor chemicals that are needed to make fentanyl are coming from China.
Among other things, the Treasury task force will analyze the financial flows of trafficking organizations, especially those that rely on cryptocurrency to move funds; work with local law enforcement in areas hardest hit by the fentanyl epidemic and use financial institution records to detect transactions related to drug and human smuggling.
“Combating the flow of deadly fentanyl into communities across the United States is a top priority for President Biden as well as the Treasury Department,” Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen in a statement. She said the new group will "allow us to bring the department’s unrivaled expertise in fighting financial crime to bear against this deadly epidemic.”
"Treasury will use every tool at its disposal to disrupt the ability of drug traffickers to peddle this poison in our country.”
The Biden administration has taken a slew of actions against fentanyl traffickers — charging powerful traffickers with drug and money laundering offenses and announcing indictments and sanctions against Chinese companies and executives blamed for importing the chemicals used to make the dangerous drug.
Still, fentanyl is the deadliest drug in the U.S. today. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that 71,000 people died from overdosing on synthetic opioids such as fentanyl in 2021, up from almost 58,000 in 2020.
The death toll is more than 10 times as many drug deaths as in 1988, at the height of the crack epidemic.
U.S. lawmakers have proposed a variety of measures to combat fentanyl's explosive use in the U.S.
Many of the GOP presidential candidates have said they would use military force against Mexico in response to the trafficking of fentanyl and other synthetic opioids.
And the leaders of the Senate Banking and Armed Services Committees, along with others, want to compel the Biden administration to declare international fentanyl trafficking a national emergency and pass legislation that would hold Treasury to reporting requirements and enable the president to confiscate sanctioned property of fentanyl traffickers to use for law enforcement efforts.
Treasury officials, including Brian Nelson, the department's undersecretary for terrorism and financial intelligence, have been traveling to the southern border this year to work with local authorities on quelling drug trafficking through sanctions efforts.
Nelson will co-chair the strike force with IRS Criminal Investigations Chief Jim Lee.
Nelson said the strike force "will act quickly and decisively with the top specialists from across the department to nimbly respond to the newest threats.”
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you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
By Robert Barnes and David Ovalle
December 04, 2023 at 13:59 ET
The Supreme Court on Monday seemed torn about both the merits and the legality of a proposed Purdue Pharma bankruptcy plan that would allocate billions of dollars to help ease the nation’s opioid crisis, but also shield the family that owns the company from future lawsuits.
Justices across the ideological spectrum asked tough questions of lawyers from the Justice Department, which opposes the deal, and attorneys for Purdue and the vast number of parties that have an interest in the outcome.
Those parties say unraveling the settlement plan would leave some victims with nothing.
“Forget a better deal — there is no other deal,” said Washington lawyer Pratik Shah, who represents the interests of states, hospitals, tribes, insurance companies, individual victims and other creditors who agreed to the settlement.
But Curtis E. Gannon, representing the Justice Department, said that claim already has been proven untrue. After some states and individuals objected to a previous version of the plan, he said, the Sackler family — which owns Purdue — ponied up more cash, increasing their contributions from more than $4 billion to about $6 billion, to be paid over nearly two decades.
Gannon said another settlement could be worked out that doesn’t necessarily involve releases or bankruptcy. “We do hope there is another deal at the end of this,” he said.
[See how deeply opioid pills flooded your U.S. community]
Purdue declared bankruptcy in 2019, as it faced thousands of lawsuits and allegations that the company helped fuel the opioid crisis by the marketing of its blockbuster painkiller OxyContin. But members of the Sackler family did not themselves file for bankruptcy.
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Consulting firm McKinsey and Co. has agreed to pay $78 million to settle claims from insurers and health care funds that its work with drug companies helped fuel an opioid addiction crisis.
The agreement was revealed late Friday in documents filed in federal court in San Francisco. The settlement must still be approved by a judge.
Under the agreement, McKinsey would establish a fund to reimburse insurers, private benefit plans and others for some or all of their prescription opioid costs.
The insurers argued that McKinsey worked with Purdue Pharma – the maker of OxyContin – to create and employ aggressive marketing and sales tactics to overcome doctors’ reservations about the highly addictive drugs. Insurers said that forced them to pay for prescription opioids rather than safer, non-addictive and lower-cost drugs, including over-the-counter pain medication. They also had to pay for the opioid addiction treatment that followed.
From 1999 to 2021, nearly 280,000 people in the U.S. died from overdoses of prescription opioids, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. Insurers argued that McKinsey worked with Purdue Pharma even after the extent of the opioid crisis was apparent.
The settlement is the latest in a years-long effort to hold McKinsey accountable for its role in the opioid epidemic. In February 2021, the company agreed to pay nearly $600 million to U.S. states, the District of Columbia and five U.S. territories. In September, the company announced a separate, $230 million settlement agreement with school districts and local governments.
Asked for comment Saturday, McKinsey referred to a statement it released in September.
“As we have stated previously, we continue to believe that our past work was lawful and deny allegations to the contrary,” the company said, adding that it reached a settlement to avoid protracted litigation.
McKinsey said it stopped advising clients on any opioid-related business in 2019.
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you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
By David Ovalle and Justin Jouvenal
June 27, 2024 at 12:55 ET
A divided Supreme Court on Thursday blocked a controversial proposed Purdue Pharma bankruptcy plan that would have provided billions of dollars to help address the nation’s opioid crisis in exchange for protecting the family that owns the company from future lawsuits.
The court ruled that U.S. bankruptcy code does not allow a court to shield the Sackler family, which owns the company and had agreed to pay up to $6 billion over 18 years as part of the plan, from future opioid lawsuits. Family members did not file for bankruptcy themselves.
The ruling marks the latest chapter in the national reckoning over the role of drugmakers such as Purdue and other companies in igniting the epidemic of addiction and overdoses. The decision means states and other parties suing Purdue will restart negotiations. The ruling could also affect major settlements in other cases approved through bankruptcy courts.
In a 5-4 decision that scrambled ideological lines on the Supreme Court, the majority found the plan was invalid because all the affected parties had not been consulted on the deal.
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you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
He's right, you know. Pot is one of the most psychologically addictive substances there is. Decriminalization, yes. Legalization, no.
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you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Philadelphia 10/22/2013
Baltimore 10/27/2013
Hampton 4/18/2016
Ft. Worth 9/13/2023
Ft. Worth 9/15/2023
Wrigley 8/31/2024
Baltimore 9/12/2024
Fenway 9/15/2024
1- pot smokers
2- drunks
and can someone tell Elton John that retiring means take your ass home!
Most of the focus regarding impaired driving goes to drunk driving. But what about drugged driving? More specifically, what about marijuana-impaired driving? This is a growing problem across America.
Unfortunately, as marijuana legalization increases, this could become the next big killer on our roads. What is the data behind this growing problem? And what can be done to prevent people from dying on the streets because of marijuana-impaired driving?
Marijuana Drugged Driving Statistics
When people get high and then get behind the wheel of a car, they take on a great deal of risk, not only for themselves but also for everyone else on the road. As marijuana legalization has increased, the rate of marijuana-impaired traffic accidents has also increased. And to make matters even worse, the rate of marijuana-related traffic deaths has gone up as well. In 2018, about 12 million Americans, or 4.7 percent of the population that’s over the age of 16, drove under the influence of marijuana.1 About 2.3 million (or roughly 0.9 percent of that same age group) drove a vehicle under the influence of illicit drugs other than marijuana in 2018. The fraction of fatal accidents in which at least one driver tested positive for THC has shot up in states that legalized marijuana.2 For example, from 2013 to 2016, the fraction of fatal accidents in which at least one driver tested positive for THC increased nationwide by an average of 10 percent. But for Colorado and Washington, two states that legalized marijuana in 2014, the result was much different. During the same period, Colorado’s marijuana-related traffic death rate shot up 92 percent, and Washington’s increased by 28 percent. Since 2016, marijuana-related traffic deaths have leveled out in both Colorado and Washington. Such deaths are still higher than the national average, but the statistics are no longer spiking. However, the point of concern here is that both states legalized marijuana, and both states experienced a shocking increase in marijuana-influenced traffic deaths immediately afterward. Another report suggests that, in 2016, 54 percent of fatally injured drivers tested positive for drugs, with at least half of them having marijuana in their systems at the time of the accident.3 In 2016, about 5,300 drug-influenced drivers died in car accidents. And that is not taking into account other innocent victims of those car crashes; that’s just the intoxicated drivers themselves. And of those 5,300, at least 38 percent had marijuana in their bodies at the time of the accident.
Another concerning factor is that, while it is well known how dangerous it is to drive under the influence of alcohol, many people who use marijuana believe that they can smoke pot and drive safely. A Colorado survey found that at least 69 percent of marijuana users in that state drove under the influence of marijuana at least once in the year leading up to the study, and 27 percent said they drove high almost every day. Many of the survey respondents said that they didn’t think marijuana had a negative effect on their ability to drive safely. But in the same year leading up to the survey, 51 people died in Colorado from marijuana-impaired driving. Not only is marijuana-impaired driving a growing problem, but it is a lethal problem. And to make matters worse, law enforcement officers do not yet possess the proper testing technology to test for marijuana-impaired driving! So the current testing methodology is not nearly as efficient as it needs to be. And last but not least, many marijuana users erroneously believe that they can use marijuana and drive safely. This is a multifaceted problem. It needs to be solved as soon as possible to preserve the lives of those on the roads.
Curbing Legalization to Keep the Roads Safe
To preserve life and keep the roads safe, it would be a good idea to curb the legalization of marijuana. Of course, there are many other reasons why states might not want to legalize this substance. But it seems that just the life and death factor of marijuana-influenced driving alone would be enough to discourage legalization. Case in point, it seems as though the states that legalized experienced the highest surges in marijuana-related traffic fatalities. And while the casualties appeared to level out several years after legalization in each state, the first few years following legalization were particularly lethal. If even just one person dies on the roads because of marijuana-impaired driving, is it really a good idea to continue legalizing the substance?
Seeking Treatment for Addiction
Marijuana use can lead to marijuana dependence, a condition in which an individual compulsively uses marijuana and cannot seem to stop. Furthermore, marijuana use often ends up going hand in hand with other types of substance abuse too, such as alcohol misuse or an addiction to narcotics. Without a doubt, marijuana-influenced driving is not the only risk factor attendant with marijuana use. If you have a spouse, son, daughter, grandchild, parent, grandparent, sibling, partner, loved one, friend, or coworker who uses drugs, please do your best to get them into a drug and alcohol addiction treatment center as soon as possible. Even a drug like marijuana, which is said not to be as harmful as other drugs, can be lethal. There is no such thing as “safe” drug use, and there is never a good reason to experiment with drugs. Narconon offers a pathway to freedom from addiction, a route to a drug-free life. At Narconon, people don’t have to be “addicts for life.” Anyone can live a drug-free life. No one has to be shackled to the label of “substance abuser” forever. Let Narconon help your loved one get to the bottom of the issues driving them to use drugs. Let Narconon help your loved one find and implement the tools they need to live life without resorting to mind-altering substances.
Sources:
Alejandro Azofeifa, DDS, et al. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, “Driving Under the Influence of Marijuana and Illicit Drugs Among Persons Aged ≥16 Years—United States, 2018”. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR) ↩︎
Benjamin Hansen University of Oregon, NBER, IZA, et al. (2018) “Early Evidence on Recreational Marijuana Legalization and Traffic Fatalities”. University of Oregon Report (pdf) ↩︎
Jenni Bergal Stateline Article, Pew Charitable Trusts, (2018) “Drugged Driving Deaths Spike With Spread of Legal Marijuana, Opioid Abuse”. See Article ↩︎
Not condoning getting stoned and driving, but I don't trust those statistics as evidence of a growing problem.
Philadelphia 10/22/2013
Baltimore 10/27/2013
Hampton 4/18/2016
Ft. Worth 9/13/2023
Ft. Worth 9/15/2023
Wrigley 8/31/2024
Baltimore 9/12/2024
Fenway 9/15/2024
by Bob Fernandez and Craig R. McCoy for The Philadelphia Inquirer
Dec. 17, 5 a.m. EST
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Co-published with The Philadelphia Inquirer
This article was produced in partnership with The Philadelphia Inquirer, which was a member of ProPublica’s Local Reporting Network in 2020-21. Sign up for Dispatches to get stories like this one as soon as they are published.
Reporting Highlights
Delayed Justice: After a whistleblower exposed the criminal behavior of Endo, a drug manufacturer, the Justice Department waited more than a decade to bring charges against the company.
A Steep Discount: Federal agencies said Endo owed up to $7 billion in criminal fines, back taxes and other charges. The government settled this year for just $200 million.
Winners and Losers: Endo is still selling narcotics. Lawyers made $350 million. A few executives shared $95 million in bonuses. Thousands of opioid victims are to share $40 million.
These highlights were written by the reporters and editors who worked on this story.
This spring, the Justice Department announced a major victory against a drug firm that manufactured billions of opioid painkillers. Endo Health Solutions, the agency said, would face $1.5 billion in fines and forfeitures and plead guilty to a corporate criminal charge.
Prosecutors said the massive fine would hold accountable a suburban Philadelphia company that profited by “misrepresenting the safety of their opioid products and using reckless marketing tactics to increase sales.”
But in the end, federal prosecutors offered far friendlier terms than those trumpeted by the agency.
Endo would not have to pay the $1.5 billion in criminal penalties, which was already a deep discount from the billions federal officials said Endo owed for dodging taxes and driving up Medicare costs.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
We discussed this possibly being a money grab for the states and it wouldn't help the people whom it should have gone to.
When the pharmacies have their hands out for supposed negligence, something i disagree with, then you know its bad.
Hearing the Sacklers on the stand stating they didn't think their drug was any worse then the others had me wondering. They aren't all doctors are they? Why would they know that? I guess that is the crux of the argument. What did they actually know?