Tax Reform

Go Beavers

tbergs said:

Go Beavers said:

rgambs said:

Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer.

We’re getting close to the tipping point and consensus as far as the public is concerned. The next level of resistance will be from all the people who have been making big cash and riding the gravy train for a long time. 

You mean like the current WH?

I wasn’t going to finger anyone specifically. 

tbergs

Go Beavers said:

tbergs said:

Go Beavers said:

rgambs said:

Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer.

We’re getting close to the tipping point and consensus as far as the public is concerned. The next level of resistance will be from all the people who have been making big cash and riding the gravy train for a long time. 

You mean like the current WH?

I wasn’t going to finger anyone specifically. 

That's what Roy Moore said....

mrussel1

tbergs said:

Go Beavers said:

tbergs said:

Go Beavers said:

rgambs said:

Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer.

We’re getting close to the tipping point and consensus as far as the public is concerned. The next level of resistance will be from all the people who have been making big cash and riding the gravy train for a long time. 

You mean like the current WH?

I wasn’t going to finger anyone specifically. 

That's what Roy Moore said....

Reminds me of my favorite boy band... FINGERBANG!

Halifax2TheMax

Using the data from the TPC’s analysis, I’ve created two charts that boil down the story of the Senate tax bill. The first chart details the average tax change for each major income group, by year, if the Senate plan becomes law, in dollars:

This shows that in certain respects, the plan actually gets more regressive over time. The tax cuts for the four lower-income quintiles basically shrivel up and disappear by 2027, with the two lowest quintiles ultimately seeing either a tax hike or no change, while the middle and fourth see the tax cut dwindle away to almost nothing. By contrast, in 2027, the top one percent sees an average tax cut of more than $30,000, and the top 0.1 percent sees an average tax cut of more than $200,000 — more than double what it was in 2019, and a good deal more than it was in 2025.

Because of all these complexities, some people in every income group see a tax hike at each juncture, and some people in every one of them see a tax cut. That’s all reflected in the averages in the chart above, which in the short term tilt toward a cut for all groups. But come 2027, most of the benefits for lower- and middle-income taxpayers vanish, even as the corporate tax cuts continue delivering a massive reduction to the top:

This, too, shows that the plan gets more regressive over time. Large majorities of the middle three quintiles see tax hikes in 2027. Meanwhile, virtually all the people in the top 1 percent and top 0.1 percent see a tax cut. Taken all together, 50 percent of overall taxpaying units see a tax hike; the vast majority of those people are concentrated in the lower quintiles.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/11/21/the-trump-tax-plan-is-much-worse-than-you-thought-a-new-analysis-confirms-it/?undefined=&utm_term=.d5e4126b4b4c&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1

CM189191

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_LvRPX0rGY

mrussel1

@Halifax2TheMax I'm pretty sure the tax cuts for consumers are sunsetting whereas the corp tax cuts are permanent.  I'm sure that's in one of the two plans.  Even though my quintile shows a break for me, I can assure you my taxes are going up.  And that's probably the case for my neighbors too.  I'm shocked (not shocked) that my idiot congressman Dave Brat is voting for it.  He's actually a bigger a-hole than my previous rep, Eric Cantor.  

Halifax2TheMax

mrussel1 said:

@Halifax2TheMax I'm pretty sure the tax cuts for consumers are sunsetting whereas the corp tax cuts are permanent.  I'm sure that's in one of the two plans.  Even though my quintile shows a break for me, I can assure you my taxes are going up.  And that's probably the case for my neighbors too.  I'm shocked (not shocked) that my idiot congressman Dave Brat is voting for it.  He's actually a bigger a-hole than my previous rep, Eric Cantor.  

Brilliant, isn't it, in its brilliancy? The real brilliancy is in the fact that the average Trump voter can't see past next week, never mind 2027 (hell, I might be dead by then). And what you posit is true. Only a very select few see the benefits immediately and beyond 2027. And for what? Where are all of those deficit hawks? Yea right, a RINO is in office.

CM189191

Senate GOP tax bill hurts the poor more than originally thought, CBO finds

By 2019, Americans earning less than $30,000 a year would be worse off under the Senate bill, CBO found. By 2021, Americans earning $40,000 or less would be net losers, and by 2027, most people earning less than $75,000 a year would be worse off. On the flip side, millionaires and those earning $100,000 to $500,000 would be big beneficiaries, according to the CBO’s calculations. 

oftenreading

CM189191 said:

Senate GOP tax bill hurts the poor more than originally thought, CBO finds

By 2019, Americans earning less than $30,000 a year would be worse off under the Senate bill, CBO found. By 2021, Americans earning $40,000 or less would be net losers, and by 2027, most people earning less than $75,000 a year would be worse off. On the flip side, millionaires and those earning $100,000 to $500,000 would be big beneficiaries, according to the CBO’s calculations. 

What a shocker.

But the lower income Trump voters won't pay attention to this, and the higher income Trump voters will be pleased with it, so it's win-win for him. 

CM189191

Dear Republican Voter, As the GOP tax bills make their way through each side of Congress, it is clear that there are large give-aways to corporations and the rich at your expense. Republican operatives assure us that tax cuts for these entities will bring prosperity, despite the fact that corporations already have record amounts of cash on hand. They tell you that while a company might have $10B in loose change and hire no one, another billion will inspire them to take on more employees. Wall Street is excited because they know this is not true... the investor class will benefit, not you. I have voted to pay more in taxes to educate your children, to fix the broken infrastructure we all share, and to do the things that only government can do, like the sort of big science that is required to reverse the effects of climate change. But, you "won". So, the world you leave your children will become more and more unlivable every day. The infrastructure upon which we rely will continue to crumble around us. Your upbringing, which enables you to carry a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance while ignoring the urge to resolve it, will be inflicted upon your descendants. Without a proper education they, like you, will be all but incapable of critical thought and so be ripe for exploitation by the same sort of people exploiting you, now. In the meantime, you have voted to send your tax dollars more-or-less directly to my investments. Despite what you have been told, those dollars have not made me a job-creator. The money you have sent to me has been added to what I already had to the point that my money makes me more money than my work does, and my work is well-paid. Also, thanks to you, my money is taxed at a lower rate than my or your hard work. So, the rich will become richer. You will become poorer. Your politicians will provide you with scapegoats, like immigrants, to blame for the results. They will distract you with culture wars and actual wars. All the while, your "I got mine" philosophy will ensure you have less and less over time.  I am truly sorry for you. /Not borrowed /Stolen with pride

josevolution

CM189191 said:

Dear Republican Voter, As the GOP tax bills make their way through each side of Congress, it is clear that there are large give-aways to corporations and the rich at your expense. Republican operatives assure us that tax cuts for these entities will bring prosperity, despite the fact that corporations already have record amounts of cash on hand. They tell you that while a company might have $10B in loose change and hire no one, another billion will inspire them to take on more employees. Wall Street is excited because they know this is not true... the investor class will benefit, not you. I have voted to pay more in taxes to educate your children, to fix the broken infrastructure we all share, and to do the things that only government can do, like the sort of big science that is required to reverse the effects of climate change. But, you "won". So, the world you leave your children will become more and more unlivable every day. The infrastructure upon which we rely will continue to crumble around us. Your upbringing, which enables you to carry a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance while ignoring the urge to resolve it, will be inflicted upon your descendants. Without a proper education they, like you, will be all but incapable of critical thought and so be ripe for exploitation by the same sort of people exploiting you, now. In the meantime, you have voted to send your tax dollars more-or-less directly to my investments. Despite what you have been told, those dollars have not made me a job-creator. The money you have sent to me has been added to what I already had to the point that my money makes me more money than my work does, and my work is well-paid. Also, thanks to you, my money is taxed at a lower rate than my or your hard work. So, the rich will become richer. You will become poorer. Your politicians will provide you with scapegoats, like immigrants, to blame for the results. They will distract you with culture wars and actual wars. All the while, your "I got mine" philosophy will ensure you have less and less over time.  I am truly sorry for you. /Not borrowed /Stolen with pride

This country is well on its way to becoming a two class society rich & poor , there won’t be a middle anymore this has been the Koch’s Brother’s plan all along they just needed a total idiot to push it along and they got their puppet in the form of an orange bafoon..

Halifax2TheMax

CM189191 said:

Dear Republican Voter, As the GOP tax bills make their way through each side of Congress, it is clear that there are large give-aways to corporations and the rich at your expense. Republican operatives assure us that tax cuts for these entities will bring prosperity, despite the fact that corporations already have record amounts of cash on hand. They tell you that while a company might have $10B in loose change and hire no one, another billion will inspire them to take on more employees. Wall Street is excited because they know this is not true... the investor class will benefit, not you. I have voted to pay more in taxes to educate your children, to fix the broken infrastructure we all share, and to do the things that only government can do, like the sort of big science that is required to reverse the effects of climate change. But, you "won". So, the world you leave your children will become more and more unlivable every day. The infrastructure upon which we rely will continue to crumble around us. Your upbringing, which enables you to carry a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance while ignoring the urge to resolve it, will be inflicted upon your descendants. Without a proper education they, like you, will be all but incapable of critical thought and so be ripe for exploitation by the same sort of people exploiting you, now. In the meantime, you have voted to send your tax dollars more-or-less directly to my investments. Despite what you have been told, those dollars have not made me a job-creator. The money you have sent to me has been added to what I already had to the point that my money makes me more money than my work does, and my work is well-paid. Also, thanks to you, my money is taxed at a lower rate than my or your hard work. So, the rich will become richer. You will become poorer. Your politicians will provide you with scapegoats, like immigrants, to blame for the results. They will distract you with culture wars and actual wars. All the while, your "I got mine" philosophy will ensure you have less and less over time.  I am truly sorry for you. /Not borrowed /Stolen with pride

Spot on. Too bad half of his base wouldn’t be able to read it, never mind comprehend it.

what dreams

mickeyrat said:

CM189191 said:

Stated differently: why is a tax payer punished for not having children?

Still doesn't make sense to me. 

stated differently, why is a parent punished financially for having children?

How is eliminating a child tax credit a punishment?

Before having your children, did you really say to yourself, "I better have children, or the government will punish me"? Did you say, "I need to have kids so I can get a tax credit?" 

Let me guess. You never said either thing. You had children because you wanted to have children. And then the government rewarded you.

what dreams

rgambs said:

Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer.

Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.

PJ_Soul

what dreams said:

rgambs said:

Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer.

Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.

Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.

what dreams

PJ_Soul said:

what dreams said:

rgambs said:

Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer.

Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.

Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.

There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.

oftenreading

what dreams said:

PJ_Soul said:

what dreams said:

rgambs said:

Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer.

Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.

Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.

There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.

Having whatever you want on demand is never going to be affordable for everyone, nor should it be. It wastes a ton of money. 

Go Beavers

what dreams said:

PJ_Soul said:

what dreams said:

rgambs said:

Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer.

Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.

Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.

There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.

Private insurance uses their own matrix and protocols. You’re trusting profit oriented companies more than the government, which is fine, but be realistic about it. 

what dreams

Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.

Gern Blansten

what dreams said:

PJ_Soul said:

what dreams said:

rgambs said:

Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer.

Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.

Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.

There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.

You can still get those services with a single payer system if you are willing to pay for it.