Tax Reform

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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,710
    CM189191 said:
    Dear Republican Voter,

    As the GOP tax bills make their way through each side of Congress, it is clear that there are large give-aways to corporations and the rich at your expense. Republican operatives assure us that tax cuts for these entities will bring prosperity, despite the fact that corporations already have record amounts of cash on hand. They tell you that while a company might have $10B in loose change and hire no one, another billion will inspire them to take on more employees. Wall Street is excited because they know this is not true... the investor class will benefit, not you.

    I have voted to pay more in taxes to educate your children, to fix the broken infrastructure we all share, and to do the things that only government can do, like the sort of big science that is required to reverse the effects of climate change. But, you "won". So, the world you leave your children will become more and more unlivable every day. The infrastructure upon which we rely will continue to crumble around us. Your upbringing, which enables you to carry a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance while ignoring the urge to resolve it, will be inflicted upon your descendants. Without a proper education they, like you, will be all but incapable of critical thought and so be ripe for exploitation by the same sort of people exploiting you, now.

    In the meantime, you have voted to send your tax dollars more-or-less directly to my investments. Despite what you have been told, those dollars have not made me a job-creator. The money you have sent to me has been added to what I already had to the point that my money makes me more money than my work does, and my work is well-paid. Also, thanks to you, my money is taxed at a lower rate than my or your hard work.

    So, the rich will become richer. You will become poorer. Your politicians will provide you with scapegoats, like immigrants, to blame for the results. They will distract you with culture wars and actual wars. All the while, your "I got mine" philosophy will ensure you have less and less over time.  I am truly sorry for you.


    /Not borrowed
    /Stolen with pride
    This country is well on its way to becoming a two class society rich & poor , there won’t be a middle anymore this has been the Koch’s Brother’s plan all along they just needed a total idiot to push it along and they got their puppet in the form of an orange bafoon..
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • CM189191 said:
    Dear Republican Voter,

    As the GOP tax bills make their way through each side of Congress, it is clear that there are large give-aways to corporations and the rich at your expense. Republican operatives assure us that tax cuts for these entities will bring prosperity, despite the fact that corporations already have record amounts of cash on hand. They tell you that while a company might have $10B in loose change and hire no one, another billion will inspire them to take on more employees. Wall Street is excited because they know this is not true... the investor class will benefit, not you.

    I have voted to pay more in taxes to educate your children, to fix the broken infrastructure we all share, and to do the things that only government can do, like the sort of big science that is required to reverse the effects of climate change. But, you "won". So, the world you leave your children will become more and more unlivable every day. The infrastructure upon which we rely will continue to crumble around us. Your upbringing, which enables you to carry a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance while ignoring the urge to resolve it, will be inflicted upon your descendants. Without a proper education they, like you, will be all but incapable of critical thought and so be ripe for exploitation by the same sort of people exploiting you, now.

    In the meantime, you have voted to send your tax dollars more-or-less directly to my investments. Despite what you have been told, those dollars have not made me a job-creator. The money you have sent to me has been added to what I already had to the point that my money makes me more money than my work does, and my work is well-paid. Also, thanks to you, my money is taxed at a lower rate than my or your hard work.

    So, the rich will become richer. You will become poorer. Your politicians will provide you with scapegoats, like immigrants, to blame for the results. They will distract you with culture wars and actual wars. All the while, your "I got mine" philosophy will ensure you have less and less over time.  I am truly sorry for you.


    /Not borrowed
    /Stolen with pride
    Spot on. Too bad half of his base wouldn’t be able to read it, never mind comprehend it.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,056
    mickeyrat said:
    CM189191 said:
    Stated differently: why is a tax payer punished for not having children?

    Still doesn't make sense to me. 
    stated differently, why is a parent punished financially for having children?
    How is eliminating a child tax credit a punishment?

    Before having your children, did you really say to yourself, "I better have children, or the government will punish me"? Did you say, "I need to have kids so I can get a tax credit?" 

    Let me guess. You never said either thing. You had children because you wanted to have children. And then the government rewarded you.
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,056
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,767
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,056
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 10,435
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    Having whatever you want on demand is never going to be affordable for everyone, nor should it be. It wastes a ton of money. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,203
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    Private insurance uses their own matrix and protocols. You’re trusting profit oriented companies more than the government, which is fine, but be realistic about it. 
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,056
    Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 8,816
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    You can still get those services with a single payer system if you are willing to pay for it.
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville
    2003: Noblesville
    2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
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    2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,230
    edited November 2017
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.


    Oh, how nice for you!  You get the holy grail of health coverage so you aren't concerned for everyone else.  
    Medicare and Medicaid are far less complicated and half the nightmare of private sector insurance.  I don't know what your experience is, but I bill insurance, both public and private, and it's a literal no-brainer.

    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,203
    Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.
    You can still have provate insurance in a single
    payer system. We have all these models in other countries to draw up our own system from, and there’s countries that already do this.  
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    “I used to spend a lot of time in this room...back when it was a shit hole and I was a shit head.”
    big·otˈbiɡət/ noun: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
    big·ot·ryˈbiɡətrē/ noun: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,203
    And in ‘08 McCain was the conservatives cat’s meow. Go figure. 
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    And in ‘08 McCain was the conservatives cat’s meow. Go figure. 
    I remember that differently, I remember agreeing to being the sacrificial lamb, I remember him choosing Palin as VP to ensure defeat.
    “I used to spend a lot of time in this room...back when it was a shit hole and I was a shit head.”
    big·otˈbiɡət/ noun: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
    big·ot·ryˈbiɡətrē/ noun: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,203
    JC29856 said:
    And in ‘08 McCain was the conservatives cat’s meow. Go figure. 
    I remember that differently, I remember agreeing to being the sacrificial lamb, I remember him choosing Palin as VP to ensure defeat.
    Revising history can ease the pain. 
  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWestPosts: 12,872
    JC29856 said:
    And in ‘08 McCain was the conservatives cat’s meow. Go figure. 
    I remember that differently, I remember agreeing to being the sacrificial lamb, I remember him choosing Palin as VP to ensure defeat.
    Revising history can ease the pain. 
    Particularly the part about Palin. He chose her not to ensure defeat but in a reckless and misguided attempt to lure disenchanted Clinton supporters to his cause. His campaign thought maybe the PUMA crowd was so angry they would vote for a woman, any woman, over Obama. It didn't work.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • dignindignin Posts: 7,493
    Yeehaaawww! Let's do it all again!!

    I’m a Depression historian. The GOP tax bill is straight out of 1929.

    Republicans are again sprinting toward an economic cliff.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/11/30/im-a-depression-historian-the-gop-tax-bill-is-straight-out-of-1929/
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    JC29856 said:
    And in ‘08 McCain was the conservatives cat’s meow. Go figure. 
    I remember that differently, I remember agreeing to being the sacrificial lamb, I remember him choosing Palin as VP to ensure defeat.
    Revising history can ease the pain. 
    You think Palin was a calculated decision made by McCain having no history with her and meeting her twice before he called to offer her the VP?
    Were you here 10 years ago? I enjoy digging up old posts... heres one from Sept 2008 about a great man, husband, and father
    The more people change the more they stay the same! June 19, 20, 22, 24 and 25

    Carol Shepp-the one who stood by him, raising their three kids, through his trying five years in a Vietnamese prison, only to be dumped upon his heroic return for a younger woman, despite, or because of, her having suffered permanent disabling and disfiguring injuries in an auto accident during his absence.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html
    “I used to spend a lot of time in this room...back when it was a shit hole and I was a shit head.”
    big·otˈbiɡət/ noun: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
    big·ot·ryˈbiɡətrē/ noun: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,203
    Dumping his wife for a younger woman? McCain has nothing on the Orange potato 
  • JC29856 said:
    JC29856 said:
    And in ‘08 McCain was the conservatives cat’s meow. Go figure. 
    I remember that differently, I remember agreeing to being the sacrificial lamb, I remember him choosing Palin as VP to ensure defeat.
    Revising history can ease the pain. 
    You think Palin was a calculated decision made by McCain having no history with her and meeting her twice before he called to offer her the VP?
    Were you here 10 years ago? I enjoy digging up old posts... heres one from Sept 2008 about a great man, husband, and father
    The more people change the more they stay the same! June 19, 20, 22, 24 and 25

    Carol Shepp-the one who stood by him, raising their three kids, through his trying five years in a Vietnamese prison, only to be dumped upon his heroic return for a younger woman, despite, or because of, her having suffered permanent disabling and disfiguring injuries in an auto accident during his absence.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html
    Who gives a shit? Really? Is that all you have? Please, bring back comet pizza and podesta’s emails. They were at least entertaining.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 10,435
    JC29856 said:
    JC29856 said:
    And in ‘08 McCain was the conservatives cat’s meow. Go figure. 
    I remember that differently, I remember agreeing to being the sacrificial lamb, I remember him choosing Palin as VP to ensure defeat.
    Revising history can ease the pain. 
    You think Palin was a calculated decision made by McCain having no history with her and meeting her twice before he called to offer her the VP?
    Were you here 10 years ago? I enjoy digging up old posts... heres one from Sept 2008 about a great man, husband, and father
    The more people change the more they stay the same! June 19, 20, 22, 24 and 25

    Carol Shepp-the one who stood by him, raising their three kids, through his trying five years in a Vietnamese prison, only to be dumped upon his heroic return for a younger woman, despite, or because of, her having suffered permanent disabling and disfiguring injuries in an auto accident during his absence.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html
    Guess not everyone can be Obama, right?

    Oops - you also hate Obama.  Hmmmmm. Could the whole marital thing actually be ....... totally irrelevant?
     
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 10,435
    JC29856 said:
    JC29856 said:
    And in ‘08 McCain was the conservatives cat’s meow. Go figure. 
    I remember that differently, I remember agreeing to being the sacrificial lamb, I remember him choosing Palin as VP to ensure defeat.
    Revising history can ease the pain. 
    You think Palin was a calculated decision made by McCain having no history with her and meeting her twice before he called to offer her the VP?
    Were you here 10 years ago? I enjoy digging up old posts... heres one from Sept 2008 about a great man, husband, and father
    The more people change the more they stay the same! June 19, 20, 22, 24 and 25

    Carol Shepp-the one who stood by him, raising their three kids, through his trying five years in a Vietnamese prison, only to be dumped upon his heroic return for a younger woman, despite, or because of, her having suffered permanent disabling and disfiguring injuries in an auto accident during his absence.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html
    Who gives a shit? Really? Is that all you have? Please, bring back comet pizza and podesta’s emails. They were at least entertaining.
    Guess what? I actually met someone the other day who believes in the Comet Pizza scam! A real, live person. Just the one, though. 
     
    Takes all kinds, I guess. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,767
    edited November 2017
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    That's not how it works. How it works where I am is, you go to the doctor's office, you get treated or referred to a specialist (you are free to request a particular specialist). No bill, no paperwork. You just tell them your CareCard number if they don't already have it on file. If you go to a specialist, you show up, get treated or they schedule you for whatever procedures, surgeries, or whatever else that you need, no bill, no paperwork. Always zero paperwork unless perhaps there is some admittance form if you have to check into a hospital? There isn't any paperwork in the ER, I know that for sure. There is literally no "deciding" what services you're eligible for unless you're talking about elective shit like unnecessary cosmetic surgeries, or if  you require a private hospital room or a fancy schmancy cast rather than the one provided for free, etc. There are literally zero forced financial transactions, and you never have to deal with any kind of insurance broker. I don't see why America couldn't figure out a system like this when so many other governments have managed it.

    The only things covered by extended health care, which employers or you pay extra for, includes dental, prescriptions, physio, massages, shit like that. And that is an extremely simple process as well, usually actually handled by the medical office directly so money still never changes hands. Even if the office doesn't do it and you pay up front, all it requires is you to fill out a short form online, click submit. Reimbursement goes straight to your bank account within a few days.

    And BTW, we can choose our doctors too, if we don't trust our referrals. And we can certainly pick our GPs. Also, we do have private medical clinics where you can buy your healthcare and get it on demand if you prefer paying over waiting for something. So best of both worlds - the people without money to burn always get good healthcare, and the rich can pay for theirs if they're impatient. Your preference only covers people with money. That is the entire problem. I'm not sure how anyone can be happy with a system that fucks over so many people, and is literally inaccessible to many.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,203
    I don’t know. I’d really miss out on the hassle of having insurance companies in the middle, along with the repeated statements that come that look like bills, but say “this is not a bill”. 
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,056
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.


    Oh, how nice for you!  You get the holy grail of health coverage so you aren't concerned for everyone else.  
    Medicare and Medicaid are far less complicated and half the nightmare of private sector insurance.  I don't know what your experience is, but I bill insurance, both public and private, and it's a literal no-brainer.

    My experience is that I'm a caregiver for my very ill mother. Every time I turn around, Medicare is rejecting payment for basic things that old, sick people need because of some rule or another. Social workers give me wrong, conflicting answers at every turn, with the most recent example unexpectedly costing my family a whopping 10,000 bucks. 

    I do care very much about people. It's a lazy, tired argument to accuse people of being greedy and selfish just because they have faith in private enterprise. I would never say the private system is perfect. It is a tangled web. But when I compare how easy and simple my own cancer treatment was (paid by a private PPO) compared to my mother's end-of-life care through Medicare/Kaiser Advantage -- it's a fucking no-brainer to me as to which I prefer. I hope to hell when I'm old and dying that I do not have to depend on the federal government to help me. 
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,203
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.


    Oh, how nice for you!  You get the holy grail of health coverage so you aren't concerned for everyone else.  
    Medicare and Medicaid are far less complicated and half the nightmare of private sector insurance.  I don't know what your experience is, but I bill insurance, both public and private, and it's a literal no-brainer.

    My experience is that I'm a caregiver for my very ill mother. Every time I turn around, Medicare is rejecting payment for basic things that old, sick people need because of some rule or another. Social workers give me wrong, conflicting answers at every turn, with the most recent example unexpectedly costing my family a whopping 10,000 bucks. 

    I do care very much about people. It's a lazy, tired argument to accuse people of being greedy and selfish just because they have faith in private enterprise. I would never say the private system is perfect. It is a tangled web. But when I compare how easy and simple my own cancer treatment was (paid by a private PPO) compared to my mother's end-of-life care through Medicare/Kaiser Advantage -- it's a fucking no-brainer to me as to which I prefer. I hope to hell when I'm old and dying that I do not have to depend on the federal government to help me. 
    My anecdotal story is pretty much opposite. My mom didn’t have any difficulties with any if her Parkinsons related treatment, and my dad hasn’t currently or when he was dealing with his cancer. If anything, I thought there were times the Docs were overdoing procedures in order to bill more. My iwn work experience is that biling Medicaid is way more preferred than private insurance. 
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    That's not how it works. How it works where I am is, you go to the doctor's office, you get treated or referred to a specialist (you are free to request a particular specialist). No bill, no paperwork. You just tell them your CareCard number if they don't already have it on file. If you go to a specialist, you show up, get treated or they schedule you for whatever procedures, surgeries, or whatever else that you need, no bill, no paperwork. Always zero paperwork unless perhaps there is some admittance form if you have to check into a hospital? There isn't any paperwork in the ER, I know that for sure. There is literally no "deciding" what services you're eligible for unless you're talking about elective shit like unnecessary cosmetic surgeries, or if  you require a private hospital room or a fancy schmancy cast rather than the one provided for free, etc. There are literally zero forced financial transactions, and you never have to deal with any kind of insurance broker. I don't see why America couldn't figure out a system like this when so many other governments have managed it.

    The only things covered by extended health care, which employers or you pay extra for, includes dental, prescriptions, physio, massages, shit like that. And that is an extremely simple process as well, usually actually handled by the medical office directly so money still never changes hands. Even if the office doesn't do it and you pay up front, all it requires is you to fill out a short form online, click submit. Reimbursement goes straight to your bank account within a few days.

    And BTW, we can choose our doctors too, if we don't trust our referrals. And we can certainly pick our GPs. Also, we do have private medical clinics where you can buy your healthcare and get it on demand if you prefer paying over waiting for something. So best of both worlds - the people without money to burn always get good healthcare, and the rich can pay for theirs if they're impatient. Your preference only covers people with money. That is the entire problem. I'm not sure how anyone can be happy with a system that fucks over so many people, and is literally inaccessible to many.

    Does this sound familiar? also from Sept 08
    The Ethics Committee ruled that the involvement of McCain in the scheme was also minimal, and he too was cleared of all charges against him. McCain was criticized by the Committee for exercising "poor judgment" when he met with the federal regulators on Keating's behalf. The report also said that McCain's "actions were not improper nor attended with gross negligence and did not reach the level of requiring institutional action against him....Senator McCain has violated no law of the United States or specific Rule of the United States Senate." On his Keating Five experience, McCain has said: "The appearance of it was wrong. It's a wrong appearance when a group of senators appear in a meeting with a group of regulators, because it conveys the impression of undue and improper influence. And it was the wrong thing to do."


    good post above
    “I used to spend a lot of time in this room...back when it was a shit hole and I was a shit head.”
    big·otˈbiɡət/ noun: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
    big·ot·ryˈbiɡətrē/ noun: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,230
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.


    Oh, how nice for you!  You get the holy grail of health coverage so you aren't concerned for everyone else.  
    Medicare and Medicaid are far less complicated and half the nightmare of private sector insurance.  I don't know what your experience is, but I bill insurance, both public and private, and it's a literal no-brainer.

    My experience is that I'm a caregiver for my very ill mother. Every time I turn around, Medicare is rejecting payment for basic things that old, sick people need because of some rule or another. Social workers give me wrong, conflicting answers at every turn, with the most recent example unexpectedly costing my family a whopping 10,000 bucks. 

    I do care very much about people. It's a lazy, tired argument to accuse people of being greedy and selfish just because they have faith in private enterprise. I would never say the private system is perfect. It is a tangled web. But when I compare how easy and simple my own cancer treatment was (paid by a private PPO) compared to my mother's end-of-life care through Medicare/Kaiser Advantage -- it's a fucking no-brainer to me as to which I prefer. I hope to hell when I'm old and dying that I do not have to depend on the federal government to help me. 
    Yeah, I just don't understand this at all.
    It is universally accepted to be the opposite within healthcare industries.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,767
    edited December 2017
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    Why can't we just do the only thing that makes sense and implement single payer. :anguished:
    Because I have zero interest in "Medicare for All." Dealing with my mother's Medicare provided health care -- it's a bullshit nightmare trying to get her what she needs. The only reason she's still alive at this point is her Kaiser Advantage Plan. To get any help from Medicare, you have to be practically dead.
    Then that system sucks too. So why not have a single payer system that isn't a pain in the ass?? Those exist in a lot of other places.
    There's another thread for health care, so I don't want to get too deep into it. But to answer your question, I personally am not interested in any kind of "managed care" system where other people decide what services I am eligible for depending on their matrix and protocols. I'm super satisfied with my preferred provider plan where I get my health care on demand. I decide which doctors, which treatments, and when. It would be wonderful if we could make what I have available and affordable to everybody. But I don't trust my government one bit to figure out how to do that. I don't trust my government to get anything right anymore. And that's a sad state of affairs.
    Being totally realistic. I have fantastic private insurance and I'm not interested diminishing my private health care for government issue.  It's the one damn thing I have going for me financially -- and I suppose I feel the same way about my health care as parents and home owners feel about their tax breaks. Hands off.


    Oh, how nice for you!  You get the holy grail of health coverage so you aren't concerned for everyone else.  
    Medicare and Medicaid are far less complicated and half the nightmare of private sector insurance.  I don't know what your experience is, but I bill insurance, both public and private, and it's a literal no-brainer.

    My experience is that I'm a caregiver for my very ill mother. Every time I turn around, Medicare is rejecting payment for basic things that old, sick people need because of some rule or another. Social workers give me wrong, conflicting answers at every turn, with the most recent example unexpectedly costing my family a whopping 10,000 bucks. 

    I do care very much about people. It's a lazy, tired argument to accuse people of being greedy and selfish just because they have faith in private enterprise. I would never say the private system is perfect. It is a tangled web. But when I compare how easy and simple my own cancer treatment was (paid by a private PPO) compared to my mother's end-of-life care through Medicare/Kaiser Advantage -- it's a fucking no-brainer to me as to which I prefer. I hope to hell when I'm old and dying that I do not have to depend on the federal government to help me. 
    If you really care very much about people why wouldn't you want an actual universal healthcare system that works rather than endorsing a private, for profit system just because it works for you personally? I agree that Medicare sounds generally shitty (better than nothing). That is why I'm talking about a different system altogether. I don't understand why more Americans don't want that, when it works in so many other countries (no system is perfect - that is not what I'm claiming).
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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