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Tax Reform

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,947
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I also found the Pro Publica article underwhelming.  The concept that you don't pay income taxes until you get the income is not new or exciting.  I would not want to pay taxes every year on my 401(k) and investments in which I have not recognized any gains officially.  That would be brutal for most Americans.  I also don't necessarily think there should be wildly different rules for different Americans either, outside of the actual marginal rate.  

    The place where reform WOULD make a difference is one of the methods that they use.  They borrow with massive lines of credits to fund their lifestyles, and then write off the interest.  That's really clever.  And a loophole that could be closed.  
    Knowing about it in the abstract and seeing it in black and white are two different things. Maybe POOTWH’s refusal to release his tax returns had more to do than just bank and insurance fraud? Maybe he also didn’t pay any income tax, unlike Hillary who not only paid taxes but released 20 years of returns? And Obama too.

    Does it have to be either or on “unrealized gains?” Can there not be a tax on increased wealth Growth or gain, even if on paper, after a certain threshold? Bezos really needed that $4K child tax credit. What a ........, never mind.
    My guess is Bezos has no idea he got a child tax credit.  He hires an account firm/team and their role is to take every shelter, deduction, credit afforded by law.  That's what my wife does and I'm sure our good friend @Gern Blansten does the same for his clients.  

    I'm simply not sold on having to pay taxes on the growth of wealth, if unrecognized.  Remember that at some point you will have to pay taxes, either through liquidation or estate taxes.  The only other option is to give it to charity and in that case, I think that's better than paying taxes on it.  Buffett has committed to giving away 99.5% of his fortune and has started on that path. 
    Disagree. You’re required to sign your tax return. Do you sign documents without knowing or understanding what they contain, particularly under penalty of law?

    Charities don’t pay for roads or bridges, airports, port facilities, pandemic response, healthcare, social security, defense, higher ed, etc. You know, those things that allow these assholes to become filthy rich?
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,947
    And Bezos and his ilk can cash out some of their wealth growth and pay for their own damn infrastructure/relocation improvements, and pay taxes on it, rather than whine about needing state/federal government to subsidize them, all for low wage job creation. Fucking obscene.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,563
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I also found the Pro Publica article underwhelming.  The concept that you don't pay income taxes until you get the income is not new or exciting.  I would not want to pay taxes every year on my 401(k) and investments in which I have not recognized any gains officially.  That would be brutal for most Americans.  I also don't necessarily think there should be wildly different rules for different Americans either, outside of the actual marginal rate.  

    The place where reform WOULD make a difference is one of the methods that they use.  They borrow with massive lines of credits to fund their lifestyles, and then write off the interest.  That's really clever.  And a loophole that could be closed.  
    Knowing about it in the abstract and seeing it in black and white are two different things. Maybe POOTWH’s refusal to release his tax returns had more to do than just bank and insurance fraud? Maybe he also didn’t pay any income tax, unlike Hillary who not only paid taxes but released 20 years of returns? And Obama too.

    Does it have to be either or on “unrealized gains?” Can there not be a tax on increased wealth Growth or gain, even if on paper, after a certain threshold? Bezos really needed that $4K child tax credit. What a ........, never mind.
    My guess is Bezos has no idea he got a child tax credit.  He hires an account firm/team and their role is to take every shelter, deduction, credit afforded by law.  That's what my wife does and I'm sure our good friend @Gern Blansten does the same for his clients.  

    I'm simply not sold on having to pay taxes on the growth of wealth, if unrecognized.  Remember that at some point you will have to pay taxes, either through liquidation or estate taxes.  The only other option is to give it to charity and in that case, I think that's better than paying taxes on it.  Buffett has committed to giving away 99.5% of his fortune and has started on that path. 
    Disagree. You’re required to sign your tax return. Do you sign documents without knowing or understanding what they contain, particularly under penalty of law?

    Charities don’t pay for roads or bridges, airports, port facilities, pandemic response, healthcare, social security, defense, higher ed, etc. You know, those things that allow these assholes to become filthy rich?
    Let me be clear.  I'm not arguing that the tax system shouldn't be reformed.  I'm just saying taxing wealth that is purely on paper is not something that I would readily support, in the way that seems implicit in teh Pro Publica report.  I think their calculation of effective tax vs the general population is misleading.  The include paper assets in the rate for the super wealthy, but not for you and me as the comparison.  It's just traditional income.   

    I also don't think that even Buffet paying more in taxes at his death will be quite as impactful to society as the tax free money he could give to real, meaningful charities.  But that doesn't mean I don't support reform.  Like I said, the trick of using lines of credit to live enables these low rates.  If Bezos spends $50MM a year to support his lifestyle, I would want a tax system where he is forced to cash out $50MM in assets and pay income taxes.  
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 11,633
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I also found the Pro Publica article underwhelming.  The concept that you don't pay income taxes until you get the income is not new or exciting.  I would not want to pay taxes every year on my 401(k) and investments in which I have not recognized any gains officially.  That would be brutal for most Americans.  I also don't necessarily think there should be wildly different rules for different Americans either, outside of the actual marginal rate.  

    The place where reform WOULD make a difference is one of the methods that they use.  They borrow with massive lines of credits to fund their lifestyles, and then write off the interest.  That's really clever.  And a loophole that could be closed.  
    Knowing about it in the abstract and seeing it in black and white are two different things. Maybe POOTWH’s refusal to release his tax returns had more to do than just bank and insurance fraud? Maybe he also didn’t pay any income tax, unlike Hillary who not only paid taxes but released 20 years of returns? And Obama too.

    Does it have to be either or on “unrealized gains?” Can there not be a tax on increased wealth Growth or gain, even if on paper, after a certain threshold? Bezos really needed that $4K child tax credit. What a ........, never mind.
    My guess is Bezos has no idea he got a child tax credit.  He hires an account firm/team and their role is to take every shelter, deduction, credit afforded by law.  That's what my wife does and I'm sure our good friend @Gern Blansten does the same for his clients.  

    I'm simply not sold on having to pay taxes on the growth of wealth, if unrecognized.  Remember that at some point you will have to pay taxes, either through liquidation or estate taxes.  The only other option is to give it to charity and in that case, I think that's better than paying taxes on it.  Buffett has committed to giving away 99.5% of his fortune and has started on that path. 
    Disagree. You’re required to sign your tax return. Do you sign documents without knowing or understanding what they contain, particularly under penalty of law?

    Charities don’t pay for roads or bridges, airports, port facilities, pandemic response, healthcare, social security, defense, higher ed, etc. You know, those things that allow these assholes to become filthy rich?
    Did you expect Bezos to refuse the credit?  If left off of the return the IRS likely would have added it themselves and sent him a refund anyway.

    I don't agree with taxing unrealized gains...holy shit that would mean we would need to ask for refunds on unrealized losses right?  There would be a whole new investment strategy created to lose money on paper to shelter income.
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,563
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I also found the Pro Publica article underwhelming.  The concept that you don't pay income taxes until you get the income is not new or exciting.  I would not want to pay taxes every year on my 401(k) and investments in which I have not recognized any gains officially.  That would be brutal for most Americans.  I also don't necessarily think there should be wildly different rules for different Americans either, outside of the actual marginal rate.  

    The place where reform WOULD make a difference is one of the methods that they use.  They borrow with massive lines of credits to fund their lifestyles, and then write off the interest.  That's really clever.  And a loophole that could be closed.  
    Knowing about it in the abstract and seeing it in black and white are two different things. Maybe POOTWH’s refusal to release his tax returns had more to do than just bank and insurance fraud? Maybe he also didn’t pay any income tax, unlike Hillary who not only paid taxes but released 20 years of returns? And Obama too.

    Does it have to be either or on “unrealized gains?” Can there not be a tax on increased wealth Growth or gain, even if on paper, after a certain threshold? Bezos really needed that $4K child tax credit. What a ........, never mind.
    My guess is Bezos has no idea he got a child tax credit.  He hires an account firm/team and their role is to take every shelter, deduction, credit afforded by law.  That's what my wife does and I'm sure our good friend @Gern Blansten does the same for his clients.  

    I'm simply not sold on having to pay taxes on the growth of wealth, if unrecognized.  Remember that at some point you will have to pay taxes, either through liquidation or estate taxes.  The only other option is to give it to charity and in that case, I think that's better than paying taxes on it.  Buffett has committed to giving away 99.5% of his fortune and has started on that path. 
    Disagree. You’re required to sign your tax return. Do you sign documents without knowing or understanding what they contain, particularly under penalty of law?

    Charities don’t pay for roads or bridges, airports, port facilities, pandemic response, healthcare, social security, defense, higher ed, etc. You know, those things that allow these assholes to become filthy rich?
    Did you expect Bezos to refuse the credit?  If left off of the return the IRS likely would have added it themselves and sent him a refund anyway.

    I don't agree with taxing unrealized gains...holy shit that would mean we would need to ask for refunds on unrealized losses right?  There would be a whole new investment strategy created to lose money on paper to shelter income.
    Great point at the end there..  Wasn't even thinking about the loss.  Imagine how a dip in the stock market would really tank expected IRS income. 
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 11,633
    I definitely see a need to jack up the tax rates on the wealthy.  I'm not sure where the cutoff would be but maybe $500K and above?  

    Wealthy people pay a ridiculously low rate right now and anyone who still believes in "trickle down" is full of shit.
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,947
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I also found the Pro Publica article underwhelming.  The concept that you don't pay income taxes until you get the income is not new or exciting.  I would not want to pay taxes every year on my 401(k) and investments in which I have not recognized any gains officially.  That would be brutal for most Americans.  I also don't necessarily think there should be wildly different rules for different Americans either, outside of the actual marginal rate.  

    The place where reform WOULD make a difference is one of the methods that they use.  They borrow with massive lines of credits to fund their lifestyles, and then write off the interest.  That's really clever.  And a loophole that could be closed.  
    Knowing about it in the abstract and seeing it in black and white are two different things. Maybe POOTWH’s refusal to release his tax returns had more to do than just bank and insurance fraud? Maybe he also didn’t pay any income tax, unlike Hillary who not only paid taxes but released 20 years of returns? And Obama too.

    Does it have to be either or on “unrealized gains?” Can there not be a tax on increased wealth Growth or gain, even if on paper, after a certain threshold? Bezos really needed that $4K child tax credit. What a ........, never mind.
    My guess is Bezos has no idea he got a child tax credit.  He hires an account firm/team and their role is to take every shelter, deduction, credit afforded by law.  That's what my wife does and I'm sure our good friend @Gern Blansten does the same for his clients.  

    I'm simply not sold on having to pay taxes on the growth of wealth, if unrecognized.  Remember that at some point you will have to pay taxes, either through liquidation or estate taxes.  The only other option is to give it to charity and in that case, I think that's better than paying taxes on it.  Buffett has committed to giving away 99.5% of his fortune and has started on that path. 
    Disagree. You’re required to sign your tax return. Do you sign documents without knowing or understanding what they contain, particularly under penalty of law?

    Charities don’t pay for roads or bridges, airports, port facilities, pandemic response, healthcare, social security, defense, higher ed, etc. You know, those things that allow these assholes to become filthy rich?
    Did you expect Bezos to refuse the credit?  If left off of the return the IRS likely would have added it themselves and sent him a refund anyway.

    I don't agree with taxing unrealized gains...holy shit that would mean we would need to ask for refunds on unrealized losses right?  There would be a whole new investment strategy created to lose money on paper to shelter income.
    Why not be able to claim unrealized losses? Why is the tax withheld until you cash out, speaking mostly 401K, stock gains, etc.? Maybe not the full amount of the loss/gain but a %, graduated on the amount of gain/loss, maybe pegged to total wealth brackets? My 401K goes up $50K, I don't pay any % of that unrealized gain in tax. It goes up 250K, I pay 2% (I'm making this up and admit to not knowing jack shit about taxes/investing). Next year my 401K loses value, drops $75K, I claim a loss deduction of some %. Tax borrowing over certain dollar amounts? I'm not talking the average mortgage amount or even money borrowed to build a mansion. Personal lines of credit, maybe? Its so fucked.

    From the Propublica report:

    However, the bigger and more eye-catching news was what ProPublica found, or at least confirmed. Looking at the 25 richest Americans, whose collective worth rose by $401 billion between 2014 and 2018, the report found:

    They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. That’s a staggering sum, but it amounts to a true tax rate of only 3.4%.

    It’s a completely different picture for middle-class Americans, for example, wage earners in their early 40s who have amassed a typical amount of wealth for people their age. From 2014 to 2018, such households saw their net worth expand by about $65,000 after taxes on average, mostly due to the rise in value of their homes. But because the vast bulk of their earnings were salaries, their tax bills were almost as much, nearly $62,000, over that five-year period.

    Opinion | Here’s Exhibit A for dramatic tax reform - The Washington Post

    Remember, 50% of 'Muricans aren't in the stock market in any form and are mostly taxed on earned income from wages. The skewedness needs to be skewed in another direction. Bezos could pay twice as much in taxes, if he paid what he should, and still not even feel it.

    To the bold, no but one would think that credit would be capped at some income level or he'd have it in his heart and tell his accountant to refuse it or promptly donate a like sum to the US Treasury. Or maybe pay his employees more per hour or provide better health plans or something. 
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 11,633
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I also found the Pro Publica article underwhelming.  The concept that you don't pay income taxes until you get the income is not new or exciting.  I would not want to pay taxes every year on my 401(k) and investments in which I have not recognized any gains officially.  That would be brutal for most Americans.  I also don't necessarily think there should be wildly different rules for different Americans either, outside of the actual marginal rate.  

    The place where reform WOULD make a difference is one of the methods that they use.  They borrow with massive lines of credits to fund their lifestyles, and then write off the interest.  That's really clever.  And a loophole that could be closed.  
    Knowing about it in the abstract and seeing it in black and white are two different things. Maybe POOTWH’s refusal to release his tax returns had more to do than just bank and insurance fraud? Maybe he also didn’t pay any income tax, unlike Hillary who not only paid taxes but released 20 years of returns? And Obama too.

    Does it have to be either or on “unrealized gains?” Can there not be a tax on increased wealth Growth or gain, even if on paper, after a certain threshold? Bezos really needed that $4K child tax credit. What a ........, never mind.
    My guess is Bezos has no idea he got a child tax credit.  He hires an account firm/team and their role is to take every shelter, deduction, credit afforded by law.  That's what my wife does and I'm sure our good friend @Gern Blansten does the same for his clients.  

    I'm simply not sold on having to pay taxes on the growth of wealth, if unrecognized.  Remember that at some point you will have to pay taxes, either through liquidation or estate taxes.  The only other option is to give it to charity and in that case, I think that's better than paying taxes on it.  Buffett has committed to giving away 99.5% of his fortune and has started on that path. 
    Disagree. You’re required to sign your tax return. Do you sign documents without knowing or understanding what they contain, particularly under penalty of law?

    Charities don’t pay for roads or bridges, airports, port facilities, pandemic response, healthcare, social security, defense, higher ed, etc. You know, those things that allow these assholes to become filthy rich?
    Did you expect Bezos to refuse the credit?  If left off of the return the IRS likely would have added it themselves and sent him a refund anyway.

    I don't agree with taxing unrealized gains...holy shit that would mean we would need to ask for refunds on unrealized losses right?  There would be a whole new investment strategy created to lose money on paper to shelter income.
    Why not be able to claim unrealized losses? Why is the tax withheld until you cash out, speaking mostly 401K, stock gains, etc.? Maybe not the full amount of the loss/gain but a %, graduated on the amount of gain/loss, maybe pegged to total wealth brackets? My 401K goes up $50K, I don't pay any % of that unrealized gain in tax. It goes up 250K, I pay 2% (I'm making this up and admit to not knowing jack shit about taxes/investing). Next year my 401K loses value, drops $75K, I claim a loss deduction of some %. Tax borrowing over certain dollar amounts? I'm not talking the average mortgage amount or even money borrowed to build a mansion. Personal lines of credit, maybe? Its so fucked.

    From the Propublica report:

    However, the bigger and more eye-catching news was what ProPublica found, or at least confirmed. Looking at the 25 richest Americans, whose collective worth rose by $401 billion between 2014 and 2018, the report found:

    They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. That’s a staggering sum, but it amounts to a true tax rate of only 3.4%.

    It’s a completely different picture for middle-class Americans, for example, wage earners in their early 40s who have amassed a typical amount of wealth for people their age. From 2014 to 2018, such households saw their net worth expand by about $65,000 after taxes on average, mostly due to the rise in value of their homes. But because the vast bulk of their earnings were salaries, their tax bills were almost as much, nearly $62,000, over that five-year period.

    Opinion | Here’s Exhibit A for dramatic tax reform - The Washington Post

    Remember, 50% of 'Muricans aren't in the stock market in any form and are mostly taxed on earned income from wages. The skewedness needs to be skewed in another direction. Bezos could pay twice as much in taxes, if he paid what he should, and still not even feel it.

    To the bold, no but one would think that credit would be capped at some income level or he'd have it in his heart and tell his accountant to refuse it or promptly donate a like sum to the US Treasury. Or maybe pay his employees more per hour or provide better health plans or something. 
    I can't imagine the system that would need to be in place to track this stuff....not going to happen

    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,947
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I also found the Pro Publica article underwhelming.  The concept that you don't pay income taxes until you get the income is not new or exciting.  I would not want to pay taxes every year on my 401(k) and investments in which I have not recognized any gains officially.  That would be brutal for most Americans.  I also don't necessarily think there should be wildly different rules for different Americans either, outside of the actual marginal rate.  

    The place where reform WOULD make a difference is one of the methods that they use.  They borrow with massive lines of credits to fund their lifestyles, and then write off the interest.  That's really clever.  And a loophole that could be closed.  
    Knowing about it in the abstract and seeing it in black and white are two different things. Maybe POOTWH’s refusal to release his tax returns had more to do than just bank and insurance fraud? Maybe he also didn’t pay any income tax, unlike Hillary who not only paid taxes but released 20 years of returns? And Obama too.

    Does it have to be either or on “unrealized gains?” Can there not be a tax on increased wealth Growth or gain, even if on paper, after a certain threshold? Bezos really needed that $4K child tax credit. What a ........, never mind.
    My guess is Bezos has no idea he got a child tax credit.  He hires an account firm/team and their role is to take every shelter, deduction, credit afforded by law.  That's what my wife does and I'm sure our good friend @Gern Blansten does the same for his clients.  

    I'm simply not sold on having to pay taxes on the growth of wealth, if unrecognized.  Remember that at some point you will have to pay taxes, either through liquidation or estate taxes.  The only other option is to give it to charity and in that case, I think that's better than paying taxes on it.  Buffett has committed to giving away 99.5% of his fortune and has started on that path. 
    Disagree. You’re required to sign your tax return. Do you sign documents without knowing or understanding what they contain, particularly under penalty of law?

    Charities don’t pay for roads or bridges, airports, port facilities, pandemic response, healthcare, social security, defense, higher ed, etc. You know, those things that allow these assholes to become filthy rich?
    Did you expect Bezos to refuse the credit?  If left off of the return the IRS likely would have added it themselves and sent him a refund anyway.

    I don't agree with taxing unrealized gains...holy shit that would mean we would need to ask for refunds on unrealized losses right?  There would be a whole new investment strategy created to lose money on paper to shelter income.
    Why not be able to claim unrealized losses? Why is the tax withheld until you cash out, speaking mostly 401K, stock gains, etc.? Maybe not the full amount of the loss/gain but a %, graduated on the amount of gain/loss, maybe pegged to total wealth brackets? My 401K goes up $50K, I don't pay any % of that unrealized gain in tax. It goes up 250K, I pay 2% (I'm making this up and admit to not knowing jack shit about taxes/investing). Next year my 401K loses value, drops $75K, I claim a loss deduction of some %. Tax borrowing over certain dollar amounts? I'm not talking the average mortgage amount or even money borrowed to build a mansion. Personal lines of credit, maybe? Its so fucked.

    From the Propublica report:

    However, the bigger and more eye-catching news was what ProPublica found, or at least confirmed. Looking at the 25 richest Americans, whose collective worth rose by $401 billion between 2014 and 2018, the report found:

    They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. That’s a staggering sum, but it amounts to a true tax rate of only 3.4%.

    It’s a completely different picture for middle-class Americans, for example, wage earners in their early 40s who have amassed a typical amount of wealth for people their age. From 2014 to 2018, such households saw their net worth expand by about $65,000 after taxes on average, mostly due to the rise in value of their homes. But because the vast bulk of their earnings were salaries, their tax bills were almost as much, nearly $62,000, over that five-year period.

    Opinion | Here’s Exhibit A for dramatic tax reform - The Washington Post

    Remember, 50% of 'Muricans aren't in the stock market in any form and are mostly taxed on earned income from wages. The skewedness needs to be skewed in another direction. Bezos could pay twice as much in taxes, if he paid what he should, and still not even feel it.

    To the bold, no but one would think that credit would be capped at some income level or he'd have it in his heart and tell his accountant to refuse it or promptly donate a like sum to the US Treasury. Or maybe pay his employees more per hour or provide better health plans or something. 
    I can't imagine the system that would need to be in place to track this stuff....not going to happen

    How does the IRS track it now? Computers, programming, bids to IT companies? And I realize the IRS and government in general are behind the times but that shouldn’t be the excuse. Plus, you’re required to report 401K values and gains/losses currently, as well as mortgage/loan balances, etc.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 11,633
    edited June 9
    Where do you report your 401k balance and gain/loss on your return?  You don't
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,947
    Where do you report your 401k balance and gain/loss on your return?  You don't
    Ok, I don’t. But why would that be an impossible task? Identify type of account (IRA, 401K, other investment vehicles). Report your balance as of 12/31/20 and again 12/31/21. Report loss/gain (on paper). Impossible? Hardly.

    What are all those 1099 forms I receive for?
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 11,633
    Where do you report your 401k balance and gain/loss on your return?  You don't
    Ok, I don’t. But why would that be an impossible task? Identify type of account (IRA, 401K, other investment vehicles). Report your balance as of 12/31/20 and again 12/31/21. Report loss/gain (on paper). Impossible? Hardly.

    What are all those 1099 forms I receive for?
    It wouldn't be impossible....it would add a massive amount of time to prepare each tax return.  And where does it end?  Why should I report the change in my 401K and not the change in value of my coin collection?  My toenail collection, etc?

    Not going to happen
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,563
    Where do you report your 401k balance and gain/loss on your return?  You don't
    Ok, I don’t. But why would that be an impossible task? Identify type of account (IRA, 401K, other investment vehicles). Report your balance as of 12/31/20 and again 12/31/21. Report loss/gain (on paper). Impossible? Hardly.

    What are all those 1099 forms I receive for?
    It wouldn't be impossible....it would add a massive amount of time to prepare each tax return.  And where does it end?  Why should I report the change in my 401K and not the change in value of my coin collection?  My toenail collection, etc?

    Not going to happen
    Hilariously gross. 

    There are other options.  We had the AMT for years, for this very reason.  But it was set up to catch upper class households that were falling through the gaps.  Maybe it needs to be re-tooled for the ultra rich.

    I don't like the idea of taxing unrecognized value.  It's complex, it's cumbersome, and it's not real until you liquidate it.  But as I said earlier, closing the loopholes that allow people to live on loans would force them to liquidate to live, while not being able to write it all off. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 27,947
    Where do you report your 401k balance and gain/loss on your return?  You don't
    Ok, I don’t. But why would that be an impossible task? Identify type of account (IRA, 401K, other investment vehicles). Report your balance as of 12/31/20 and again 12/31/21. Report loss/gain (on paper). Impossible? Hardly.

    What are all those 1099 forms I receive for?
    It wouldn't be impossible....it would add a massive amount of time to prepare each tax return.  And where does it end?  Why should I report the change in my 401K and not the change in value of my coin collection?  My toenail collection, etc?

    Not going to happen
    Gains in wealth, particularly in publicly traded stocks, etc. wouldn’t be that hard for the IRS to track and investment firms to report.

    Your toenail collection isn’t worth shit, BTW.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 12,212
    You think you know someone, and then one day you find out they have a toenail fetish. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,116
    I want to bring up the Capital Gains increase.  All the new people playing in the stock market made the Govt see a new cash cow and they decided to up the margin.

    Anytime there is a new way of making revenues like ebay, FB, Robin Hood, etc, the govt want to make sure they get a cut so that the everyday people get penalized.

    The raise is to be DOUBLED!!!

    This aims directly at the middle class and below.  Where are the Tax the rich people on this?
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 21,563
    edited June 10
    I want to bring up the Capital Gains increase.  All the new people playing in the stock market made the Govt see a new cash cow and they decided to up the margin.

    Anytime there is a new way of making revenues like ebay, FB, Robin Hood, etc, the govt want to make sure they get a cut so that the everyday people get penalized.

    The raise is to be DOUBLED!!!

    This aims directly at the middle class and below.  Where are the Tax the rich people on this?
    Are you being facetious? The proposed increase would tax capital gains at the same amount as ordinary income for those that make more than a million a year.  That's not exactly middle class.  And it's in line with where capital gains has been historically,  before the Bush admin.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,116
    mrussel1 said:
    I want to bring up the Capital Gains increase.  All the new people playing in the stock market made the Govt see a new cash cow and they decided to up the margin.

    Anytime there is a new way of making revenues like ebay, FB, Robin Hood, etc, the govt want to make sure they get a cut so that the everyday people get penalized.

    The raise is to be DOUBLED!!!

    This aims directly at the middle class and below.  Where are the Tax the rich people on this?
    Are you being facetious? The proposed increase would tax capital gains at the same amount as ordinary income for those that make more than a million a year.  That's not exactly middle class.  And it's in line with where capital gains has been historically,  before the Bush admin.
    Totally misread it.  Did not realize it was million and up until you said it and I re-read it.
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 11,633
    Where do you report your 401k balance and gain/loss on your return?  You don't
    Ok, I don’t. But why would that be an impossible task? Identify type of account (IRA, 401K, other investment vehicles). Report your balance as of 12/31/20 and again 12/31/21. Report loss/gain (on paper). Impossible? Hardly.

    What are all those 1099 forms I receive for?
    It wouldn't be impossible....it would add a massive amount of time to prepare each tax return.  And where does it end?  Why should I report the change in my 401K and not the change in value of my coin collection?  My toenail collection, etc?

    Not going to happen
    Gains in wealth, particularly in publicly traded stocks, etc. wouldn’t be that hard for the IRS to track and investment firms to report.

    Your toenail collection isn’t worth shit, BTW.
    But gains in wealth are meaningless for income tax.  The market could tank on Jan 2 and you have to pay tax on what it was worth two days before?  Not going to happen.  

    Plus...taxing unrealized gains provides no means for paying the tax.  If I have $200K to invest and it's worth $1mil at year end I don't have any cash to pay the tax on the gain.  
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 14,850
    Where do you report your 401k balance and gain/loss on your return?  You don't
    Ok, I don’t. But why would that be an impossible task? Identify type of account (IRA, 401K, other investment vehicles). Report your balance as of 12/31/20 and again 12/31/21. Report loss/gain (on paper). Impossible? Hardly.

    What are all those 1099 forms I receive for?
    It wouldn't be impossible....it would add a massive amount of time to prepare each tax return.  And where does it end?  Why should I report the change in my 401K and not the change in value of my coin collection?  My toenail collection, etc?

    Not going to happen
    Gains in wealth, particularly in publicly traded stocks, etc. wouldn’t be that hard for the IRS to track and investment firms to report.

    Your toenail collection isn’t worth shit, BTW.
    But gains in wealth are meaningless for income tax.  The market could tank on Jan 2 and you have to pay tax on what it was worth two days before?  Not going to happen.  

    Plus...taxing unrealized gains provides no means for paying the tax.  If I have $200K to invest and it's worth $1mil at year end I don't have any cash to pay the tax on the gain.  
    This.  Appreciate your input here to help make it clear.
    hippiemom = goodness
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