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Tax Reform

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  • static111static111 Posts: 2,903
    Lol remember the debates going on about the 1400 because “rich” combined incomes of up to 150k might get a little help...this government is psychotic
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    static111 said:
    Lol remember the debates going on about the 1400 because “rich” combined incomes of up to 150k might get a little help...this government is psychotic
    I don't understand this.  
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
  • JB16057JB16057 Posts: 442
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    I don't think we'll ever know the extent of the damage these PPP loans have done. I know they've helped quite a few businesses stay open as some people used these funds for their true purpose and they really did need them. I've talked to quite a few different businesses and have asked them if they took these PPP loans. Out of all them I've talked to, 90% of them did not need these loans and took advantage. Construction companies made out like bandits because they were never really shut down and by March of last year, they had a full year of scheduled work on the books already. They took these PPP loans and increased their own wealth. They didn't need to take these PPP loans to stay open. I don't know the situation with Pearl Jam but they took one of these loans as well. Did they really need that money? I don't know about their financial position but the band itself is worth millions so I doubt they really needed that money.

    The last guy I spoke with is starting a porta potty business which he already owns another succesful business. He told me that all of the equipment he bought was all paid for. He had spent somewhere around $36,000 without having to take a loan. He then told me that he took the PPP loans for his main business which allowed him to transfer money over to start this new porta potty business. I've heard other business people buying boats and cars with their PPP loans.

    Someone is going to have to pay for these free loans. I know it helped a ton of people but it makes me sick to think that so many people took this money and didn't really need it. Most won't have to pay back these loans because they were able to take advantage of the system.

    I own a business and I didn't take any of these loans because I didn't need them. My business took a huge hit but the business was able to survive and I'm too honest. "Don't get me wrong... if I qualified I would get it" is such an irresponsible way to think about this but this is the norm. If you truly needed it, I would understand but these programs are mostly helping the rich get richer and is just increasing the deficit.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    JB16057 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    I don't think we'll ever know the extent of the damage these PPP loans have done. I know they've helped quite a few businesses stay open as some people used these funds for their true purpose and they really did need them. I've talked to quite a few different businesses and have asked them if they took these PPP loans. Out of all them I've talked to, 90% of them did not need these loans and took advantage. Construction companies made out like bandits because they were never really shut down and by March of last year, they had a full year of scheduled work on the books already. They took these PPP loans and increased their own wealth. They didn't need to take these PPP loans to stay open. I don't know the situation with Pearl Jam but they took one of these loans as well. Did they really need that money? I don't know about their financial position but the band itself is worth millions so I doubt they really needed that money.

    The last guy I spoke with is starting a porta potty business which he already owns another succesful business. He told me that all of the equipment he bought was all paid for. He had spent somewhere around $36,000 without having to take a loan. He then told me that he took the PPP loans for his main business which allowed him to transfer money over to start this new porta potty business. I've heard other business people buying boats and cars with their PPP loans.

    Someone is going to have to pay for these free loans. I know it helped a ton of people but it makes me sick to think that so many people took this money and didn't really need it. Most won't have to pay back these loans because they were able to take advantage of the system.

    I own a business and I didn't take any of these loans because I didn't need them. My business took a huge hit but the business was able to survive and I'm too honest. "Don't get me wrong... if I qualified I would get it" is such an irresponsible way to think about this but this is the norm. If you truly needed it, I would understand but these programs are mostly helping the rich get richer and is just increasing the deficit.
    I can give you some counter-anecdotal information.  My company has about 100 suppliers in our network.  They range from 10 to 300 employees.  We monitor their staffing levels weekly.  When COVID hit, almost all of them furloughed employees immediately.  However, by the early summer, almost all of them were back to full staff even though one of our core products was on hold due to COVID.  They only re-staffed because of PPP.  
    When PPP was passed, we didn't know how low the recession would be, how deep the cuts would be, etc.  We knew that the predictions for GDP loss would be -25% or more.  So I don't blame the gov't one bit for taking aggressive action.  While certainly some people took advantage of it because their company didn't need the money, plenty did.  Further, if a company furloughed, then they would go to unemployment anyway.  So it's just moving payments from one channel to another. 
    It's the same argument that people use to say "Welfare is abused, so it needs to be stopped!".  Well yes it's abused, but 90% of the people actually need it.  Who knows what the actual number is for PPP, and who knows how low the recession COULD have gone had the gov't done nothing.  
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 12,433
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    True....but him and his wife are the employees.  Goes right in his pocket.  As I said....I would do it too...but it's fucked up.
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 12,433
    JB16057 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    I don't think we'll ever know the extent of the damage these PPP loans have done. I know they've helped quite a few businesses stay open as some people used these funds for their true purpose and they really did need them. I've talked to quite a few different businesses and have asked them if they took these PPP loans. Out of all them I've talked to, 90% of them did not need these loans and took advantage. Construction companies made out like bandits because they were never really shut down and by March of last year, they had a full year of scheduled work on the books already. They took these PPP loans and increased their own wealth. They didn't need to take these PPP loans to stay open. I don't know the situation with Pearl Jam but they took one of these loans as well. Did they really need that money? I don't know about their financial position but the band itself is worth millions so I doubt they really needed that money.

    The last guy I spoke with is starting a porta potty business which he already owns another succesful business. He told me that all of the equipment he bought was all paid for. He had spent somewhere around $36,000 without having to take a loan. He then told me that he took the PPP loans for his main business which allowed him to transfer money over to start this new porta potty business. I've heard other business people buying boats and cars with their PPP loans.

    Someone is going to have to pay for these free loans. I know it helped a ton of people but it makes me sick to think that so many people took this money and didn't really need it. Most won't have to pay back these loans because they were able to take advantage of the system.

    I own a business and I didn't take any of these loans because I didn't need them. My business took a huge hit but the business was able to survive and I'm too honest. "Don't get me wrong... if I qualified I would get it" is such an irresponsible way to think about this but this is the norm. If you truly needed it, I would understand but these programs are mostly helping the rich get richer and is just increasing the deficit.
    Exactly....I have two different clients that each got about $600K in PPP money tax free.  One was a trucking company that really wasn't affected by Covid.  The other owns several businesses that weren't really affected.

    I got $55K.  Free fucking money.  I had my best year ever in 2020 without the PPP money.
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    True....but him and his wife are the employees.  Goes right in his pocket.  As I said....I would do it too...but it's fucked up.
    Oh it's a two person company.. yeah that's a moral issue.  But at the end of the day, you don't make public policy or laws based on the exceptions.  The gov't would never do anything in that case. 
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    JB16057 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    I don't think we'll ever know the extent of the damage these PPP loans have done. I know they've helped quite a few businesses stay open as some people used these funds for their true purpose and they really did need them. I've talked to quite a few different businesses and have asked them if they took these PPP loans. Out of all them I've talked to, 90% of them did not need these loans and took advantage. Construction companies made out like bandits because they were never really shut down and by March of last year, they had a full year of scheduled work on the books already. They took these PPP loans and increased their own wealth. They didn't need to take these PPP loans to stay open. I don't know the situation with Pearl Jam but they took one of these loans as well. Did they really need that money? I don't know about their financial position but the band itself is worth millions so I doubt they really needed that money.

    The last guy I spoke with is starting a porta potty business which he already owns another succesful business. He told me that all of the equipment he bought was all paid for. He had spent somewhere around $36,000 without having to take a loan. He then told me that he took the PPP loans for his main business which allowed him to transfer money over to start this new porta potty business. I've heard other business people buying boats and cars with their PPP loans.

    Someone is going to have to pay for these free loans. I know it helped a ton of people but it makes me sick to think that so many people took this money and didn't really need it. Most won't have to pay back these loans because they were able to take advantage of the system.

    I own a business and I didn't take any of these loans because I didn't need them. My business took a huge hit but the business was able to survive and I'm too honest. "Don't get me wrong... if I qualified I would get it" is such an irresponsible way to think about this but this is the norm. If you truly needed it, I would understand but these programs are mostly helping the rich get richer and is just increasing the deficit.
    Exactly....I have two different clients that each got about $600K in PPP money tax free.  One was a trucking company that really wasn't affected by Covid.  The other owns several businesses that weren't really affected.

    I got $55K.  Free fucking money.  I had my best year ever in 2020 without the PPP money.
    But what you don't know is if you would have had the best year ever if NO company got PPP. How much of your great year is due to the other companies staying alive and generating business for you.  That's the unprovable and in my opinion, the fallacy of some of these arguments. 
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,903
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    True....but him and his wife are the employees.  Goes right in his pocket.  As I said....I would do it too...but it's fucked up.
    Oh it's a two person company.. yeah that's a moral issue.  But at the end of the day, you don't make public policy or laws based on the exceptions.  The gov't would never do anything in that case. 
    Which is why I brought up the hypocrisy of not wanting those rich 150,000aires based on 2019 taxes to get checks based on an exception.  When the amounts of the many scandalous PPP loans are much more and going to actual rich people.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    static111 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    True....but him and his wife are the employees.  Goes right in his pocket.  As I said....I would do it too...but it's fucked up.
    Oh it's a two person company.. yeah that's a moral issue.  But at the end of the day, you don't make public policy or laws based on the exceptions.  The gov't would never do anything in that case. 
    Which is why I brought up the hypocrisy of not wanting those rich 150,000aires based on 2019 taxes to get checks based on an exception.  When the amounts of the many scandalous PPP loans are much more and going to actual rich people.
    I honestly don't know where the phase out should have been. I don't have access to the data, by region, that one would need to be smart about it.  150k in a city is jack shit.  150k in Pelham, AL is rich.  
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 12,433
    mrussel1 said:
    JB16057 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    I don't think we'll ever know the extent of the damage these PPP loans have done. I know they've helped quite a few businesses stay open as some people used these funds for their true purpose and they really did need them. I've talked to quite a few different businesses and have asked them if they took these PPP loans. Out of all them I've talked to, 90% of them did not need these loans and took advantage. Construction companies made out like bandits because they were never really shut down and by March of last year, they had a full year of scheduled work on the books already. They took these PPP loans and increased their own wealth. They didn't need to take these PPP loans to stay open. I don't know the situation with Pearl Jam but they took one of these loans as well. Did they really need that money? I don't know about their financial position but the band itself is worth millions so I doubt they really needed that money.

    The last guy I spoke with is starting a porta potty business which he already owns another succesful business. He told me that all of the equipment he bought was all paid for. He had spent somewhere around $36,000 without having to take a loan. He then told me that he took the PPP loans for his main business which allowed him to transfer money over to start this new porta potty business. I've heard other business people buying boats and cars with their PPP loans.

    Someone is going to have to pay for these free loans. I know it helped a ton of people but it makes me sick to think that so many people took this money and didn't really need it. Most won't have to pay back these loans because they were able to take advantage of the system.

    I own a business and I didn't take any of these loans because I didn't need them. My business took a huge hit but the business was able to survive and I'm too honest. "Don't get me wrong... if I qualified I would get it" is such an irresponsible way to think about this but this is the norm. If you truly needed it, I would understand but these programs are mostly helping the rich get richer and is just increasing the deficit.
    Exactly....I have two different clients that each got about $600K in PPP money tax free.  One was a trucking company that really wasn't affected by Covid.  The other owns several businesses that weren't really affected.

    I got $55K.  Free fucking money.  I had my best year ever in 2020 without the PPP money.
    But what you don't know is if you would have had the best year ever if NO company got PPP. How much of your great year is due to the other companies staying alive and generating business for you.  That's the unprovable and in my opinion, the fallacy of some of these arguments. 
    Part of what I see relates to my location.  Our county didn't get hit as hard as a larger city.

    Again...I'm not necessarily criticizing it, I just struggle with some of the outcomes.
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 8,233
    The PPP loans are quite the conflicting dilemma. I'm almost positive the 2 business around me used them so the owners could buy new vehicles. It was one of those head scratcher moments when I observed them both driving new vehicles late summer. I looked them both up and each took the loan. Nothing major, but enough to squeeze out some nice vehicles. Maybe I'm wrong, but I definitely feel it's been abused. I guess they infused the economy though. The poor are perpetually fucked it seems.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,903
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    True....but him and his wife are the employees.  Goes right in his pocket.  As I said....I would do it too...but it's fucked up.
    Oh it's a two person company.. yeah that's a moral issue.  But at the end of the day, you don't make public policy or laws based on the exceptions.  The gov't would never do anything in that case. 
    Which is why I brought up the hypocrisy of not wanting those rich 150,000aires based on 2019 taxes to get checks based on an exception.  When the amounts of the many scandalous PPP loans are much more and going to actual rich people.
    I honestly don't know where the phase out should have been. I don't have access to the data, by region, that one would need to be smart about it.  150k in a city is jack shit.  150k in Pelham, AL is rich.  
    That would make sense if PPP were a state program.  Since it and the stimulus checks are federal programs they have to go broad based, and last I checked for America as a whole 150k combined is in north way rich. Also making the case for a line for stimulus and not for PPP doesn’t make sense to me in the least.  If you can arbitrarily say that 150k in AL is rich you can arbitrarily say wealthy people shouldn’t  benefit from PPP and unless all of the loan goes to payroll you are at fault and will be penalized.  There was much more scrutiny going to those 1400 checks than there was to PPP as a whole
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    static111 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    True....but him and his wife are the employees.  Goes right in his pocket.  As I said....I would do it too...but it's fucked up.
    Oh it's a two person company.. yeah that's a moral issue.  But at the end of the day, you don't make public policy or laws based on the exceptions.  The gov't would never do anything in that case. 
    Which is why I brought up the hypocrisy of not wanting those rich 150,000aires based on 2019 taxes to get checks based on an exception.  When the amounts of the many scandalous PPP loans are much more and going to actual rich people.
    I honestly don't know where the phase out should have been. I don't have access to the data, by region, that one would need to be smart about it.  150k in a city is jack shit.  150k in Pelham, AL is rich.  
    That would make sense if PPP were a state program.  Since it and the stimulus checks are federal programs they have to go broad based, and last I checked for America as a whole 150k combined is in north way rich. Also making the case for a line for stimulus and not for PPP doesn’t make sense to me in the least.  If you can arbitrarily say that 150k in AL is rich you can arbitrarily say wealthy people shouldn’t  benefit from PPP and unless all of the loan goes to payroll you are at fault and will be penalized.  There was much more scrutiny going to those 1400 checks than there was to PPP as a whole
    I didn't advocate for the phase out. I'm just saying I don't know the numbers.  I was against splitting hairs and for getting it out.  I believe we will have a fantastic GDP year and this will be a big reason why. 
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,903
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    static111 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    I had a client call me yesterday asking for help on the 2nd round of PPP loans.  He's got like $2mil in real estate and lives in a $2mil home and is applying for more free money.

    It doesn't make sense. 

    Don't get me wrong...if I qualified I would get it.  My beef is that it doesn't make sense to give more money to rich people for no fucking reason.
    I don't get this either.  He doesn't qualify for ppp, it's his business right? Those loans are not about the personal wealth of its owners,  it was about keeping people employed. 
    True....but him and his wife are the employees.  Goes right in his pocket.  As I said....I would do it too...but it's fucked up.
    Oh it's a two person company.. yeah that's a moral issue.  But at the end of the day, you don't make public policy or laws based on the exceptions.  The gov't would never do anything in that case. 
    Which is why I brought up the hypocrisy of not wanting those rich 150,000aires based on 2019 taxes to get checks based on an exception.  When the amounts of the many scandalous PPP loans are much more and going to actual rich people.
    I honestly don't know where the phase out should have been. I don't have access to the data, by region, that one would need to be smart about it.  150k in a city is jack shit.  150k in Pelham, AL is rich.  
    That would make sense if PPP were a state program.  Since it and the stimulus checks are federal programs they have to go broad based, and last I checked for America as a whole 150k combined is in north way rich. Also making the case for a line for stimulus and not for PPP doesn’t make sense to me in the least.  If you can arbitrarily say that 150k in AL is rich you can arbitrarily say wealthy people shouldn’t  benefit from PPP and unless all of the loan goes to payroll you are at fault and will be penalized.  There was much more scrutiny going to those 1400 checks than there was to PPP as a whole
    I didn't advocate for the phase out. I'm just saying I don't know the numbers.  I was against splitting hairs and for getting it out.  I believe we will have a fantastic GDP year and this will be a big reason why. 
    I didn’t mean you, I meant “you” as in the people that were splitting hairs
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,137
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    My taxes went up substantially since the 2017 tax 'cut'.
  • static111static111 Posts: 2,903
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    I’ve paid more in taxes every year since the “tax cut” 
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 23,137
    should have my back taxes paid off this year from 18 and 19

    now claiming single 0 plus an extra 50 wk.

    we got hurt by the change in transportation per diem and the unreimbursed expenses deductions. I drive , she works from home full time. as well as the tax withholding change...
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
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  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 12,433
    tbergs said:
    The PPP loans are quite the conflicting dilemma. I'm almost positive the 2 business around me used them so the owners could buy new vehicles. It was one of those head scratcher moments when I observed them both driving new vehicles late summer. I looked them both up and each took the loan. Nothing major, but enough to squeeze out some nice vehicles. Maybe I'm wrong, but I definitely feel it's been abused. I guess they infused the economy though. The poor are perpetually fucked it seems.
    I'm getting a pool.

    Definitely great for GDP.  
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,137
    mrussel1 said:
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    My taxes went up substantially since the 2017 tax 'cut'.
    static111 said:
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    I’ve paid more in taxes every year since the “tax cut” 
    I paid the same amount of taxes as last year, made more than the previous year but my return was a third from the previous year.

    Interesting that both of you paid more?
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    mrussel1 said:
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    My taxes went up substantially since the 2017 tax 'cut'.
    static111 said:
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    I’ve paid more in taxes every year since the “tax cut” 
    I paid the same amount of taxes as last year, made more than the previous year but my return was a third from the previous year.

    Interesting that both of you paid more?
    The lose of deductions,  particularly SALT, along with AMT relief all conspired to increase my effective tax rate by about 4% points.  
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,137
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    My taxes went up substantially since the 2017 tax 'cut'.
    static111 said:
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    I’ve paid more in taxes every year since the “tax cut” 
    I paid the same amount of taxes as last year, made more than the previous year but my return was a third from the previous year.

    Interesting that both of you paid more?
    The lose of deductions,  particularly SALT, along with AMT relief all conspired to increase my effective tax rate by about 4% points.  
    You must live in a high property taxed area then?
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    edited March 30
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    My taxes went up substantially since the 2017 tax 'cut'.
    static111 said:
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    I’ve paid more in taxes every year since the “tax cut” 
    I paid the same amount of taxes as last year, made more than the previous year but my return was a third from the previous year.

    Interesting that both of you paid more?
    The lose of deductions,  particularly SALT, along with AMT relief all conspired to increase my effective tax rate by about 4% points.  
    You must live in a high property taxed area then?
    No, not particularly.  Virginia is pretty moderate, but we have state income and personal property taxes, so it adds up.  I think the lack of AMT relief hurt. 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 29,137
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    My taxes went up substantially since the 2017 tax 'cut'.
    static111 said:
    Anybody do their taxes yet?  I made more but my return was a third from last year.  That was the Trump tax plan I guess?
    I’ve paid more in taxes every year since the “tax cut” 
    I paid the same amount of taxes as last year, made more than the previous year but my return was a third from the previous year.

    Interesting that both of you paid more?
    The lose of deductions,  particularly SALT, along with AMT relief all conspired to increase my effective tax rate by about 4% points.  
    You must live in a high property taxed area then?
    No, not particularly.  Virginia is pretty moderate, but we have state income and personal property taxes, so it adds up.  I think the lack of AMT relief hurt. 
    We have the same here in NY but we are only allowed to write off the 10K now for property tax.  I'm trying to figure out how besides deductions, like in NY where property tax has a cap.
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 29,139
    Yea, sure, Amazon and Bezos need tax breaks and incentives to bless us working stiffs with jobs. Sure. To the bolded, disgusting. How do these people sleep at night? Oh right, they're sociopaths.

    View in browser|nytimes.com

     
    June 9, 2021

      By David Leonhardt


    Good morning. A scoop highlights the details behind the low tax rates on the wealthy.

    A tax-policy protest near a mansion owned by Jeff Bezos in Washington.Jonathan Ernst/Reuters

    A voluntary tax

    It’s been a back-and-forth struggle over the course of American history: How much tax should the wealthy pay?
    In colonial times, parts of the North taxed the rich more than Europe did, with Massachusetts going so far as to enact a wealth tax that covered financial holdings, land, jewelry and more. Southern colonies, by contrast, kept rates low and collection ineffectual, to prevent taxes from undermining slavery by eroding the wealth of slaveholders.

    After the country’s founding, the low-tax advocates generally won out — until the 20th century, when soaring inequality, two wars and the Great Depression led Washington to create the world’s most progressive tax system. Then the situation flipped again, and top tax rates have plummeted over the last few decades.
    Yesterday, the news organization ProPublica published a scoop, based on the tax returns of thousands of wealthy Americans, including Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoch, Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. An anonymous source sent ProPublica the material after the organization had published articles about the I.R.S.’s lax enforcement of taxes on the wealthy. (Here’s ProPublica’s explanation of why it decided to publish the new story, despite privacy concerns.)

    The tax returns offer details on a story that has long been clear: The wealthy now pay strikingly low tax rates.

    To take one example, Bezos’s wealth soared by $120 billion from 2006 to 2018, and his federal taxes during that time amounted to only 1.09 percent of the wealth gain. The situation for the average household was radically different: Its taxes amounted to more than 100 percent of its wealth increase.

    ‘Buy, borrow, die’
    A central reason that very wealthy people can avoid taxes is that the U.S. system taxes only so-called realized gains — like wages or stock sales. But the wealthy often live off unrealized gains — in the form of stocks and other assets that grow more valuable over time. The wealthy borrow against these assets to pay for houses, islands and private planes and then use a variety of strategies to avoid paying taxes on the debt repayment.

    One such strategy is waiting until after death to repay the loan — or what Edward McCaffery, a tax expert at the University of Southern California, calls “buy, borrow, die.” Robert McClelland of the Tax Policy Center called it the main revelation of the ProPublica story.
    All the while, the wealthy are often able to keep their taxable income low. In 2011, Bezos reported so little income that he qualified for — and claimed — a $4,000 child tax credit. In both 2016 and 2017, Carl Icahn, who’s a billionaire, paid no federal income taxes.

    Legal tax avoidance by the wealthy has become more widespread over the past half-century for several reasons. For one, inequality has soared, meaning that the rich have more wealth to protect. And tax rates have fallen significantly.

    “It’s amazing how much we’ve cut taxes even since 1997 — on dividends, the estate tax threshold, capital gains and the top rate,” Owen Zidar, a Princeton University economist, told me. “All of those things have become more favorable to the top of the distribution.” The decline in the corporate tax rate — effectively a tax reduction for shareholders — has also been important.

    You sometimes hear the cynical view that raising taxes on the wealthy is pointless, because they have the resources to evade any taxes the government tries to impose. But history suggests otherwise.
    While some tax avoidance is inevitable, the federal government has largely succeeded in raising taxes when it has tried. The very richest Americans paid more than 50 percent of their income in federal taxes during the 1950s and ’60s (and were less successful at shielding their wealth from taxation). Today, that percentage has fallen below 30 percent.

    There are three main ways to reverse the decline in tax payments by the wealthy, Gabriel Zucman of the University of California, Berkeley, said. One is a direct tax on wealth, like those proposed by Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Two is a tax on unrealized gains — assets that have become more valuable — as Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon has proposed. Three is an increase in corporate taxes, as President Biden favors. There are also more modest ideas, like a larger estate tax.
    Societies can choose how much they do or don’t tax their wealthiest people, Zucman said. “For billionaires,” he added, “the federal income tax — the pillar of the U.S. tax system — has become a voluntary tax.”

    Reactions to the story
    Michael Linden, Biden administration official: “We already knew that some of the biggest corporations pay no income tax. Now we know that some of the wealthiest people can also get away with paying no income tax. Time for reform.”

    Binyamin Appelbaum, New York Times Opinion: “The wealthy are living by a different set of rules, lavishly spending money that isn’t taxed as income.”

    Jody Avirgan, podcast host: “There’s already a jaded take emerging around the ProPublica IRS reporting, along the lines of ‘what’s the scandal, this is all stuff that any rich person or financial journalist already knew about.’ But, like, that’s the point!”

    Megan McArdle, The Washington Post: “I thought the ProPublica analysis of billionaire taxes was going to be exciting. Instead, it told me things I already knew. … The most exciting thing is wondering who gave them the information, and how long that person will spend in jail when they’re caught, as I suspect they will be.” (Federal authorities are investigating the leak.)

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    I also found the Pro Publica article underwhelming.  The concept that you don't pay income taxes until you get the income is not new or exciting.  I would not want to pay taxes every year on my 401(k) and investments in which I have not recognized any gains officially.  That would be brutal for most Americans.  I also don't necessarily think there should be wildly different rules for different Americans either, outside of the actual marginal rate.  

    The place where reform WOULD make a difference is one of the methods that they use.  They borrow with massive lines of credits to fund their lifestyles, and then write off the interest.  That's really clever.  And a loophole that could be closed.  
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 29,139
    mrussel1 said:
    I also found the Pro Publica article underwhelming.  The concept that you don't pay income taxes until you get the income is not new or exciting.  I would not want to pay taxes every year on my 401(k) and investments in which I have not recognized any gains officially.  That would be brutal for most Americans.  I also don't necessarily think there should be wildly different rules for different Americans either, outside of the actual marginal rate.  

    The place where reform WOULD make a difference is one of the methods that they use.  They borrow with massive lines of credits to fund their lifestyles, and then write off the interest.  That's really clever.  And a loophole that could be closed.  
    Knowing about it in the abstract and seeing it in black and white are two different things. Maybe POOTWH’s refusal to release his tax returns had more to do than just bank and insurance fraud? Maybe he also didn’t pay any income tax, unlike Hillary who not only paid taxes but released 20 years of returns? And Obama too.

    Does it have to be either or on “unrealized gains?” Can there not be a tax on increased wealth Growth or gain, even if on paper, after a certain threshold? Bezos really needed that $4K child tax credit. What a ........, never mind.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 23,227
    mrussel1 said:
    I also found the Pro Publica article underwhelming.  The concept that you don't pay income taxes until you get the income is not new or exciting.  I would not want to pay taxes every year on my 401(k) and investments in which I have not recognized any gains officially.  That would be brutal for most Americans.  I also don't necessarily think there should be wildly different rules for different Americans either, outside of the actual marginal rate.  

    The place where reform WOULD make a difference is one of the methods that they use.  They borrow with massive lines of credits to fund their lifestyles, and then write off the interest.  That's really clever.  And a loophole that could be closed.  
    Knowing about it in the abstract and seeing it in black and white are two different things. Maybe POOTWH’s refusal to release his tax returns had more to do than just bank and insurance fraud? Maybe he also didn’t pay any income tax, unlike Hillary who not only paid taxes but released 20 years of returns? And Obama too.

    Does it have to be either or on “unrealized gains?” Can there not be a tax on increased wealth Growth or gain, even if on paper, after a certain threshold? Bezos really needed that $4K child tax credit. What a ........, never mind.
    My guess is Bezos has no idea he got a child tax credit.  He hires an account firm/team and their role is to take every shelter, deduction, credit afforded by law.  That's what my wife does and I'm sure our good friend @Gern Blansten does the same for his clients.  

    I'm simply not sold on having to pay taxes on the growth of wealth, if unrecognized.  Remember that at some point you will have to pay taxes, either through liquidation or estate taxes.  The only other option is to give it to charity and in that case, I think that's better than paying taxes on it.  Buffett has committed to giving away 99.5% of his fortune and has started on that path. 
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