Is America the greatest country in the world?

Lerxst1992

Unfortunately the answer to the OP is no way.

There is too much fake patriotism and abject hatred in America.

To love America means you need to accept it's diversity, whether ethnic, racial or political. That's what defines this country.

To hate me or insult me because I support Democratic policies is absurd. But it happens.

I need to whisper my political beliefs in public because I may enrage a conservative? I whisper and I don't even have to walk in the shoes that minorities do here.

What other country marginalizes the poor and non whites like America does?

PJ_Soul

All you have to do is look at some measurable statistics anyhow, if you don't want to get into the meat of the question. The US doesn't come first (or even close to) in any measurable statistic when it comes to education, health care, low poverty rates, crime, environment ... nothing. But do come first in shit like consumption. They are far up there in terms of the unemployment numbers the government reports right now, but from what any objective person can observe, those numbers are total bullshit anyhow. I'm not saying any of that as a slag on America in general or in any emotional way - I'm just saying that it is impossible to call America the greatest country if you simply look at the numbers and outcomes.

Ledbetterman10

Lerxst1992 said:

I need to whisper my political beliefs in public because I may enrage a conservative? 

It's the same way for conservatives though...always being insulted and looked down upon by liberals because they voted for Trump. Trump's a complete mess so I guess I could at least see where they're coming from. But it was the same way when George W. Bush was in office. Liberals seemed to hold the view of "You must be an idiot to vote for this idiot." 

Halifax2TheMax

PJ_Soul said:

All you have to do is look at some measurable statistics anyhow, if you don't want to get into the meat of the question. The US doesn't come first (or even close to) in any measurable statistic when it comes to education, health care, low poverty rates, crime, environment ... nothing. But do come first in shit like consumption. They are far up there in terms of the unemployment numbers the government reports right now, but from what any objective person can observe, those numbers are total bullshit anyhow. I'm not saying any of that as a slag on America in general or in any emotional way - I'm just saying that it is impossible to call America the greatest country if you simply look at the numbers and outcomes.

I had asked in one of my responses in this thread what a list of criteria would be and didn’t get a response. Surely, the folks for/against could agree on 10 or so criteria and then we could compare?

brianlux

PJ_Soul said:

All you have to do is look at some measurable statistics anyhow, if you don't want to get into the meat of the question. The US doesn't come first (or even close to) in any measurable statistic when it comes to education, health care, low poverty rates, crime, environment ... nothing. But do come first in shit like consumption. They are far up there in terms of the unemployment numbers the government reports right now, but from what any objective person can observe, those numbers are total bullshit anyhow. I'm not saying any of that as a slag on America in general or in any emotional way - I'm just saying that it is impossible to call America the greatest country if you simply look at the numbers and outcomes.

We certainly have a lot of items that could be listed in the "minus" column. 

In the plus column, however, we can list:

- The invention of jazz and blues (without which there would be no rock, hip hop, alternative, etc.)

- Arches National Monument, Yosemite, etc.

- Chocolate chip cookies

my2hands

Ledbetterman10 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I need to whisper my political beliefs in public because I may enrage a conservative? 

It's the same way for conservatives though...always being insulted and looked down upon by liberals because they voted for Trump. Trump's a complete mess so I guess I could at least see where they're coming from. But it was the same way when George W. Bush was in office. Liberals seemed to hold the view of "You must be an idiot to vote for this idiot." 

And that's why they lost, and still havent figured it out.

PJ_Soul

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

All you have to do is look at some measurable statistics anyhow, if you don't want to get into the meat of the question. The US doesn't come first (or even close to) in any measurable statistic when it comes to education, health care, low poverty rates, crime, environment ... nothing. But do come first in shit like consumption. They are far up there in terms of the unemployment numbers the government reports right now, but from what any objective person can observe, those numbers are total bullshit anyhow. I'm not saying any of that as a slag on America in general or in any emotional way - I'm just saying that it is impossible to call America the greatest country if you simply look at the numbers and outcomes.

I had asked in one of my responses in this thread what a list of criteria would be and didn’t get a response. Surely, the folks for/against could agree on 10 or so criteria and then we could compare?

I think some of the obvious ones would be:

Education outcomes, costs, and access

Health care outcomes, costs, and access

Poverty rates

Income inequality

Cost of Living vs wages

Employment rates (but real ones, not the fake ones we hear about)

Crime rates (violent and non-violent)

Gender wage gap

Environmental protection levels

LGBTQ rights

Prison system efficacy

Taxation levels

Separation of Church and State

Freedom of the press

Freedom of speech and the right to peacefully protest

And... of course.... and I don't even know how to put it.... efficacy of and trust in government? I'm sure there is a nice clean term for this.

my2hands

Legalized marijuana and the price of coffee?

HughFreakingDillon

Ledbetterman10 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I need to whisper my political beliefs in public because I may enrage a conservative? 

It's the same way for conservatives though...always being insulted and looked down upon by liberals because they voted for Trump. Trump's a complete mess so I guess I could at least see where they're coming from. But it was the same way when George W. Bush was in office. Liberals seemed to hold the view of "You must be an idiot to vote for this idiot." 

because he WAS an idiot. the fact he was voted in again (barely), baffled most of the human race. 

HughFreakingDillon

my2hands said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I need to whisper my political beliefs in public because I may enrage a conservative? 

It's the same way for conservatives though...always being insulted and looked down upon by liberals because they voted for Trump. Trump's a complete mess so I guess I could at least see where they're coming from. But it was the same way when George W. Bush was in office. Liberals seemed to hold the view of "You must be an idiot to vote for this idiot." 

And that's why they lost, and still havent figured it out.

WE ALL KNOW WHY HILLARY LOST. GET A NEW TALKING POINT. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

my2hands said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I need to whisper my political beliefs in public because I may enrage a conservative? 

It's the same way for conservatives though...always being insulted and looked down upon by liberals because they voted for Trump. Trump's a complete mess so I guess I could at least see where they're coming from. But it was the same way when George W. Bush was in office. Liberals seemed to hold the view of "You must be an idiot to vote for this idiot." 

And that's why they lost, and still havent figured it out.

WE ALL KNOW WHY HILLARY LOST. GET A NEW TALKING POINT. 

Not sure about that - there are loads of reasons why Hillary lost (some points against her, some point against many others), and a lot of people keep trying to pinpoint just one reason. It's pretty dumb. But either way, yes, altogether we know all the reasons she lost, and it's ridiculous to still be going on about it the way some people do. I don't understand the motivation behind that.

my2hands

History... repeating... itself... maybe. 

Most Democrats think she lost because the other side is stupid racists... i think I've seen the light and disagree... that's pure elitism...  and feel I need to actively engage in this conversation... sitting around calling people idiots and racists isnt helping fix the problem... I believe in the theory that with my two hands, I can change the world... so here i am, challenging progressives, talking to independents, and looking for ways to connect and agree with conservatives 

When you lose you don't blame the other team, you figure out what YOU did wrong which caused YOU to lose, and correct it. 

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

my2hands said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I need to whisper my political beliefs in public because I may enrage a conservative? 

It's the same way for conservatives though...always being insulted and looked down upon by liberals because they voted for Trump. Trump's a complete mess so I guess I could at least see where they're coming from. But it was the same way when George W. Bush was in office. Liberals seemed to hold the view of "You must be an idiot to vote for this idiot." 

And that's why they lost, and still havent figured it out.

WE ALL KNOW WHY HILLARY LOST. GET A NEW TALKING POINT. 

Not sure about that - there are loads of reasons why Hillary lost (some points against her, some point against many others), and a lot of people keep trying to pinpoint just one reason. It's pretty dumb. But either way, yes, altogether we know all the reasons she lost, and it's ridiculous to still be going on about it the way some people do. I don't understand the motivation behind that.

the funniest part about it is, people who keep blathering on and on about it call liberals the "elitists" at the same time as pointing the finger that "we still haven't figured it out". 

which is it?

same with how stupid we apparently all are at the same time as organizing a deep state initiative to take over the planet. 

which is it?

Ledbetterman10

HughFreakingDillon said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I need to whisper my political beliefs in public because I may enrage a conservative? 

It's the same way for conservatives though...always being insulted and looked down upon by liberals because they voted for Trump. Trump's a complete mess so I guess I could at least see where they're coming from. But it was the same way when George W. Bush was in office. Liberals seemed to hold the view of "You must be an idiot to vote for this idiot." 

because he WAS an idiot. the fact he was voted in again (barely), baffled most of the human race. 

But just because he's an idiot doesn't mean everyone that vote for him is. It wasn't until I grew up that I understood this. I was 20-years-old and in college during the 2004 election and I thought that same way: Bush is an idiot, and if you vote for him, you're an idiot. Now, as an adult, I realize it's not fair to characterize people like that. They could have very good reasons to vote for Bush, McCain or Romney just as I felt I had good reason to vote for Kerry and Obama. 

HughFreakingDillon

Ledbetterman10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I need to whisper my political beliefs in public because I may enrage a conservative? 

It's the same way for conservatives though...always being insulted and looked down upon by liberals because they voted for Trump. Trump's a complete mess so I guess I could at least see where they're coming from. But it was the same way when George W. Bush was in office. Liberals seemed to hold the view of "You must be an idiot to vote for this idiot." 

because he WAS an idiot. the fact he was voted in again (barely), baffled most of the human race. 

But just because he's an idiot doesn't mean everyone that vote for him is. It wasn't until I grew up that I understood this. I was 20-years-old and in college during the 2004 election and I thought that same way: Bush is an idiot, and if you vote for him, you're an idiot. Now, as an adult, I realize it's not fair to characterize people like that. They could have very good reasons to vote for Bush, McCain or Romney just as I felt I had good reason to vote for Kerry and Obama. 

back then I didn't characterize people who voted for GWB as idiots either. And I honestly understood why people voted W in a second time. In the throes of the war on turrrrrr, and americans were afraid that they needed to stay the course.

if some looked down upon those who voted for W, it was because that's how they were expressing their rage about the WMD debacle and the subsequent war and loss of american (and iraqi) lives. 

Trump is a whole new ball of wax, though. I don't think people who voted for him this time are necessarily idiots, but if they do it again, well.......

Ledbetterman10

Ledbetterman10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I need to whisper my political beliefs in public because I may enrage a conservative? 

It's the same way for conservatives though...always being insulted and looked down upon by liberals because they voted for Trump. Trump's a complete mess so I guess I could at least see where they're coming from. But it was the same way when George W. Bush was in office. Liberals seemed to hold the view of "You must be an idiot to vote for this idiot." 

because he WAS an idiot. the fact he was voted in again (barely), baffled most of the human race. 

But just because he's an idiot doesn't mean everyone that vote for him is. It wasn't until I grew up that I understood this. I was 20-years-old and in college during the 2004 election and I thought that same way: Bush is an idiot, and if you vote for him, you're an idiot. Now, as an adult, I realize it's not fair to characterize people like that. They could have very good reasons to vote for Bush, McCain or Romney just as I felt I had good reason to vote for Kerry and Obama. 

back then I didn't characterize people who voted for GWB as idiots either. And I honestly understood why people voted W in a second time. In the throes of the war on turrrrrr, and americans were afraid that they needed to stay the course.

if some looked down upon those who voted for W, it was because that's how they were expressing their rage about the WMD debacle and the subsequent war and loss of american (and iraqi) lives. 

Trump is a whole new ball of wax, though. I don't think people who voted for him this time are necessarily idiots, but if they do it again, well.......

I agree with Trump being a "whole new ball of wax." He's completely unprecedented and all the rules have been thrown out the window. But...not everybody sees it like that. Some see him as just another Republican but with the nerve to say things that past Republicans wish that had the gall to say it. Not only do I think people that voted for him in 2016 will vote for him again, I think he's gaining voters. I can't back that up with any stats or anything. Just a hunch. For example, all the kids that were age 14-17 during the 2016 election will have the right to vote by 2020. I think those new voters will lean towards Trump because he's a meme-generating, social-media, celebrity president. I know...it sounds ridiculous to think that will factor in. But like you said, it's a whole new ball of wax with this guy. Expect the unexpected. 

Halifax2TheMax

my2hands said:

History... repeating... itself... maybe. 

Most Democrats think she lost because the other side is stupid racists... i think I've seen the light and disagree... that's pure elitism...  and feel I need to actively engage in this conversation... sitting around calling people idiots and racists isnt helping fix the problem... I believe in the theory that with my two hands, I can change the world... so here i am, challenging progressives, talking to independents, and looking for ways to connect and agree with conservatives 

When you lose you don't blame the other team, you figure out what YOU did wrong which caused YOU to lose, and correct it. 

Where has it been posited that “most democrats think she lost because the other side is stupid racists?” The only one saying that is you.

OnWis97

This is a 23-page, 17-month-old thread, so I honestly don't know whether I've ever replied to it.  But I'll say the same thing now that I would have said in 2010, or 2002, or 1998...

...I've never been comfortable with this notion that "America is the greatest country in the world."  And it's not an issue of the degree to which that is or is not true but the need to keep repeating it.  It almost comes across as insecure, like we have to keep convincing ourselves.  And I don't need to decide whether we're greater than other countries.  There's no value in making a contest out of it.  I think the potential damage this does is that it feeds into our jingoistic need to shut down any thought that we could improve.  "We're the greatest country in the world; how dare you question anything about it?"

Like so many things, America's great, but flawed.  It's constitution and written laws are great, but flawed.  Its criminal justice system (or rather its 50 criminal justice systems) is great (though some people have every right to say they are not) but flawed.  But we rest on our "greatness" or, rather "our greatestness."  And we don't want to hear about the way the criminal justice system treats those with less money or different ethnic backgrounds because it makes us question our greatestness.  And hey, in some places they wouldn't even get a trial!

And of course, it's not just the laws and norms, but the people.  And, while I don't have a "great countries" ranking to consult, I'm a little bit down on the American people these days.  

I'm actually very ethnocentric, in that I love US culture: college towns, pro sports, rock-n-roll, etc.  But the greatest? Let's not get complacent.

brianlux

my2hands said:

Legalized marijuana and the price of coffee?

:plus_one:

cincybearcat

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

my2hands said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I need to whisper my political beliefs in public because I may enrage a conservative? 

It's the same way for conservatives though...always being insulted and looked down upon by liberals because they voted for Trump. Trump's a complete mess so I guess I could at least see where they're coming from. But it was the same way when George W. Bush was in office. Liberals seemed to hold the view of "You must be an idiot to vote for this idiot." 

And that's why they lost, and still havent figured it out.

WE ALL KNOW WHY HILLARY LOST. GET A NEW TALKING POINT. 

Not sure about that - there are loads of reasons why Hillary lost (some points against her, some point against many others), and a lot of people keep trying to pinpoint just one reason. It's pretty dumb. But either way, yes, altogether we know all the reasons she lost, and it's ridiculous to still be going on about it the way some people do. I don't understand the motivation behind that.

the funniest part about it is, people who keep blathering on and on about it call liberals the "elitists" at the same time as pointing the finger that "we still haven't figured it out". 

which is it?

same with how stupid we apparently all are at the same time as organizing a deep state initiative to take over the planet. 

which is it?

Ummmm....you can be an elitist that does not get it.  Elitist doesn't mean smart.