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Donald Trump

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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 18,377
    edited December 2022
    mrussel1 said:
    On a similar topic, I'm not sure that Trump's taxes should be publicly released unless it shows some sort of criminality (which, by definition it really can't).  It gives him ammunition that he is being unfairly persecuted.  I guess one argument is that he has declared himself a candidate, but does anyone think he's a real one?  
    He’s also been claiming that he’d release them for the past seven years and that he would release them after the IRS finished auditing them. POOTWH should offer up a compelling argument as to why they shouldn’t be released, particularly as he’s made numerous claims to his wealth, charitable giving and no nefarious business dealings or massive amount of debt holdings. If the only reason is to save him from embarrassment to the aforementioned, fuck him. If your concern is setting a precedent and that anyone’s tax returns could be released, poppycock. And if you intend on running for POTUS, release your tax returns. Shouldn’t be an issue if you’ve got nothing to hide.
    I would love to see them but it would seem a bit odd to make them public. Although I heard that they were just going to release summaries rather than the actual returns.

    Interesting that tRump recently commented that "you can't tell anything from tax returns" which is absolute bullshit.


    Post edited by Gern Blansten on
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
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    until it's legally required, it doesn't seem relevant to anything unless, as mrussel said, it shows criminality. 
    Agreed. 
  • Options
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    On a similar topic, I'm not sure that Trump's taxes should be publicly released unless it shows some sort of criminality (which, by definition it really can't).  It gives him ammunition that he is being unfairly persecuted.  I guess one argument is that he has declared himself a candidate, but does anyone think he's a real one?  
    He’s also been claiming that he’d release them for the past seven years and that he would release them after the IRS finished auditing them. POOTWH should offer up a compelling argument as to why they shouldn’t be released, particularly as he’s made numerous claims to his wealth, charitable giving and no nefarious business dealings or massive amount of debt holdings. If the only reason is to save him from embarrassment to the aforementioned, fuck him. If your concern is setting a precedent and that anyone’s tax returns could be released, poppycock. And if you intend on running for POTUS, release your tax returns. Shouldn’t be an issue if you’ve got nothing to hide.
    No, my argument is that he's a private citizen at this point.  What he failed to do during his presidency or the real run is immaterial to what D's should do today.  If he was currently president, then absolutely.  If it appears he's actually running, then go ahead and release them.  To me, he's a "nothing" today, damaged and useless.  If anything, it will give him a little life so he can play a victim.  
    He’s a declared candidate for POTUS. The FEC gave him a 45 day extension to file his disclosures. Fuck him. He continues to get away with shit because nobody holds him accountable. Release his taxes and let the chips fall where they may. Use the excuse that the Congress needs to show why there needs to be some level of checks and balances as to who can be eligible to run other than age and where you’re born. An informed citizenry is important.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 18,377
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    On a similar topic, I'm not sure that Trump's taxes should be publicly released unless it shows some sort of criminality (which, by definition it really can't).  It gives him ammunition that he is being unfairly persecuted.  I guess one argument is that he has declared himself a candidate, but does anyone think he's a real one?  
    He’s also been claiming that he’d release them for the past seven years and that he would release them after the IRS finished auditing them. POOTWH should offer up a compelling argument as to why they shouldn’t be released, particularly as he’s made numerous claims to his wealth, charitable giving and no nefarious business dealings or massive amount of debt holdings. If the only reason is to save him from embarrassment to the aforementioned, fuck him. If your concern is setting a precedent and that anyone’s tax returns could be released, poppycock. And if you intend on running for POTUS, release your tax returns. Shouldn’t be an issue if you’ve got nothing to hide.
    No, my argument is that he's a private citizen at this point.  What he failed to do during his presidency or the real run is immaterial to what D's should do today.  If he was currently president, then absolutely.  If it appears he's actually running, then go ahead and release them.  To me, he's a "nothing" today, damaged and useless.  If anything, it will give him a little life so he can play a victim.  
    He’s a declared candidate for POTUS. The FEC gave him a 45 day extension to file his disclosures. Fuck him. He continues to get away with shit because nobody holds him accountable. Release his taxes and let the chips fall where they may. Use the excuse that the Congress needs to show why there needs to be some level of checks and balances as to who can be eligible to run other than age and where you’re born. An informed citizenry is important.
    I do agree that candidates should release returns. And in his case he said that he would release them as soon as his audit was complete.

    Of course he said that thinking the issue would just go away but it didn't. 
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
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    Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 8,765
    mrussel1 said:
    Republicans saying Trump was bad but not breaking the law bad makes the reactions to him getting indicted even better. They’re setting the groundwork to side with him if that happens and will fuel him even more for his 2024 run. Watching them not be able to quit the guy is an amazing thing. 
    I'm not convinced there will be a DOJ prosecution.  In fact, I'd bet against it.  I think the classified docs case is much cleaner. 
    I’m giving indictment a 25% chance. Point being if it happens, republicans are already prepping support for his defense that it’s unfounded and too harsh. It pulls in even more primary support for him because he’s being targeted by Joe and the DOJ is politicized. “When will it stop?!”  
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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,626
    ownership of hotel properties where foreign governments are putting money in your fucking pocket would kinda go against the emoulments clause of the Constitution of the United States. You know, that document elected members of government swear to uphold preserve and or defend , including the president?

    maybe I'm reading our founding document wrong.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,935
    mickeyrat said:
    ownership of hotel properties where foreign governments are putting money in your fucking pocket would kinda go against the emoulments clause of the Constitution of the United States. You know, that document elected members of government swear to uphold preserve and or defend , including the president?

    maybe I'm reading our founding document wrong.
    I think the hotels he owns are public knowledge.  Tax returns are not going to show which gov't are staying the night at the hotels.  
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    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,935
    mrussel1 said:
    Republicans saying Trump was bad but not breaking the law bad makes the reactions to him getting indicted even better. They’re setting the groundwork to side with him if that happens and will fuel him even more for his 2024 run. Watching them not be able to quit the guy is an amazing thing. 
    I'm not convinced there will be a DOJ prosecution.  In fact, I'd bet against it.  I think the classified docs case is much cleaner. 
    I’m giving indictment a 25% chance. Point being if it happens, republicans are already prepping support for his defense that it’s unfounded and too harsh. It pulls in even more primary support for him because he’s being targeted by Joe and the DOJ is politicized. “When will it stop?!”  
    Worst case would be an indictment, trial and acquittal. Just ask Durham about that.  The DOJ has a very high standard to prosecute.  
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    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Republicans saying Trump was bad but not breaking the law bad makes the reactions to him getting indicted even better. They’re setting the groundwork to side with him if that happens and will fuel him even more for his 2024 run. Watching them not be able to quit the guy is an amazing thing. 
    I'm not convinced there will be a DOJ prosecution.  In fact, I'd bet against it.  I think the classified docs case is much cleaner. 
    I’m giving indictment a 25% chance. Point being if it happens, republicans are already prepping support for his defense that it’s unfounded and too harsh. It pulls in even more primary support for him because he’s being targeted by Joe and the DOJ is politicized. “When will it stop?!”  
    Worst case would be an indictment, trial and acquittal. Just ask Durham about that.  The DOJ has a very high standard to prosecute.  
    Bull Durham was the consolation prize for there not being any Deep State conspiracy against POOTWH and to deflect from DISBarred's sabotaging and prematurely ending Team Mueller.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,626
    mrussel1 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    ownership of hotel properties where foreign governments are putting money in your fucking pocket would kinda go against the emoulments clause of the Constitution of the United States. You know, that document elected members of government swear to uphold preserve and or defend , including the president?

    maybe I'm reading our founding document wrong.
    I think the hotels he owns are public knowledge.  Tax returns are not going to show which gov't are staying the night at the hotels.  
    what you think or what I think is really irrelevant. Is Congress within its purview to release records such as these by law. Seems they can. And should.

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,680
    mrussel1 said:
    Republicans saying Trump was bad but not breaking the law bad makes the reactions to him getting indicted even better. They’re setting the groundwork to side with him if that happens and will fuel him even more for his 2024 run. Watching them not be able to quit the guy is an amazing thing. 
    I'm not convinced there will be a DOJ prosecution.  In fact, I'd bet against it.  I think the classified docs case is much cleaner. 
    I’m giving indictment a 25% chance. Point being if it happens, republicans are already prepping support for his defense that it’s unfounded and too harsh. It pulls in even more primary support for him because he’s being targeted by Joe and the DOJ is politicized. “When will it stop?!”  
    OR....it opens the door for someone like Desantis to jump in the race by saying we cannot risk nominating someone who may very likely end up going to prison. 

    Trump's slumping support, which is real at this point, is what will dictate this...not them suddenly discovering some morality. 
    www.myspace.com
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    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 18,377
    I still can't believe there haven't been consequences from the Mueller report. Maybe that is still possible?


    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
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    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,935
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    ownership of hotel properties where foreign governments are putting money in your fucking pocket would kinda go against the emoulments clause of the Constitution of the United States. You know, that document elected members of government swear to uphold preserve and or defend , including the president?

    maybe I'm reading our founding document wrong.
    I think the hotels he owns are public knowledge.  Tax returns are not going to show which gov't are staying the night at the hotels.  
    what you think or what I think is really irrelevant. Is Congress within its purview to release records such as these by law. Seems they can. And should.

    I agree that it's up to the Ways and Means committee now, but I'm not sure it is helpful to release the taxes of a private citizen.  I'm sure it will be weaponized by the right in some way. 
  • Options
    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,680
    I still can't believe there haven't been consequences from the Mueller report. Maybe that is still possible?


    Had it been done after he left the presidency, I bet there would've been indictments. 
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    Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 8,765
    mrussel1 said:
    Republicans saying Trump was bad but not breaking the law bad makes the reactions to him getting indicted even better. They’re setting the groundwork to side with him if that happens and will fuel him even more for his 2024 run. Watching them not be able to quit the guy is an amazing thing. 
    I'm not convinced there will be a DOJ prosecution.  In fact, I'd bet against it.  I think the classified docs case is much cleaner. 
    I’m giving indictment a 25% chance. Point being if it happens, republicans are already prepping support for his defense that it’s unfounded and too harsh. It pulls in even more primary support for him because he’s being targeted by Joe and the DOJ is politicized. “When will it stop?!”  
    OR....it opens the door for someone like Desantis to jump in the race by saying we cannot risk nominating someone who may very likely end up going to prison. 

    Trump's slumping support, which is real at this point, is what will dictate this...not them suddenly discovering some morality. 
    The possibility of Trump going to prison actually will help him. Magas will be inspired not just to save him, but save our country. DeSantis has the challenge of trying to walk the line of criticizing Trump and how corrupt he is while trying to pull in maga voters. Just being a passive aggressive dick may not be enough. 
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    Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 8,765
    I still can't believe there haven't been consequences from the Mueller report. Maybe that is still possible?


    The Senate intelligence report had even more evidence, and all we got was crickets. 
  • Options
    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,680
    mrussel1 said:
    Republicans saying Trump was bad but not breaking the law bad makes the reactions to him getting indicted even better. They’re setting the groundwork to side with him if that happens and will fuel him even more for his 2024 run. Watching them not be able to quit the guy is an amazing thing. 
    I'm not convinced there will be a DOJ prosecution.  In fact, I'd bet against it.  I think the classified docs case is much cleaner. 
    I’m giving indictment a 25% chance. Point being if it happens, republicans are already prepping support for his defense that it’s unfounded and too harsh. It pulls in even more primary support for him because he’s being targeted by Joe and the DOJ is politicized. “When will it stop?!”  
    OR....it opens the door for someone like Desantis to jump in the race by saying we cannot risk nominating someone who may very likely end up going to prison. 

    Trump's slumping support, which is real at this point, is what will dictate this...not them suddenly discovering some morality. 
    The possibility of Trump going to prison actually will help him. Magas will be inspired not just to save him, but save our country. DeSantis has the challenge of trying to walk the line of criticizing Trump and how corrupt he is while trying to pull in maga voters. Just being a passive aggressive dick may not be enough. 
    While this would most certainly have been true for the past 7 years and still is, to an extent, I think people overestimate his current level of support. He still has a big base but it is finally dwindling. You can see it even in in congress with his guy, Mccarthy, struggling to get the speakership. Would not shock me if the reason Desantis is so quiet regarding Trump these days, is that he's just biding his time before jumping in....and jumping in after the guy has been indicted would make a lot of sense. 
    www.myspace.com
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    Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 8,765
    mrussel1 said:
    Republicans saying Trump was bad but not breaking the law bad makes the reactions to him getting indicted even better. They’re setting the groundwork to side with him if that happens and will fuel him even more for his 2024 run. Watching them not be able to quit the guy is an amazing thing. 
    I'm not convinced there will be a DOJ prosecution.  In fact, I'd bet against it.  I think the classified docs case is much cleaner. 
    I’m giving indictment a 25% chance. Point being if it happens, republicans are already prepping support for his defense that it’s unfounded and too harsh. It pulls in even more primary support for him because he’s being targeted by Joe and the DOJ is politicized. “When will it stop?!”  
    OR....it opens the door for someone like Desantis to jump in the race by saying we cannot risk nominating someone who may very likely end up going to prison. 

    Trump's slumping support, which is real at this point, is what will dictate this...not them suddenly discovering some morality. 
    The possibility of Trump going to prison actually will help him. Magas will be inspired not just to save him, but save our country. DeSantis has the challenge of trying to walk the line of criticizing Trump and how corrupt he is while trying to pull in maga voters. Just being a passive aggressive dick may not be enough. 
    While this would most certainly have been true for the past 7 years and still is, to an extent, I think people overestimate his current level of support. He still has a big base but it is finally dwindling. You can see it even in in congress with his guy, Mccarthy, struggling to get the speakership. Would not shock me if the reason Desantis is so quiet regarding Trump these days, is that he's just biding his time before jumping in....and jumping in after the guy has been indicted would make a lot of sense. 
    I want to default to rationality, but for about half of the republican voters, there hasn’t been a point where Trump has gone too far, and I don’t think an indictment will be that thing to do it. The poll from about a week ago still has Trump in the lead if the field is crowded. 
  • Options
    Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 18,377
    mrussel1 said:
    Republicans saying Trump was bad but not breaking the law bad makes the reactions to him getting indicted even better. They’re setting the groundwork to side with him if that happens and will fuel him even more for his 2024 run. Watching them not be able to quit the guy is an amazing thing. 
    I'm not convinced there will be a DOJ prosecution.  In fact, I'd bet against it.  I think the classified docs case is much cleaner. 
    I’m giving indictment a 25% chance. Point being if it happens, republicans are already prepping support for his defense that it’s unfounded and too harsh. It pulls in even more primary support for him because he’s being targeted by Joe and the DOJ is politicized. “When will it stop?!”  
    OR....it opens the door for someone like Desantis to jump in the race by saying we cannot risk nominating someone who may very likely end up going to prison. 

    Trump's slumping support, which is real at this point, is what will dictate this...not them suddenly discovering some morality. 
    The possibility of Trump going to prison actually will help him. Magas will be inspired not just to save him, but save our country. DeSantis has the challenge of trying to walk the line of criticizing Trump and how corrupt he is while trying to pull in maga voters. Just being a passive aggressive dick may not be enough. 
    While this would most certainly have been true for the past 7 years and still is, to an extent, I think people overestimate his current level of support. He still has a big base but it is finally dwindling. You can see it even in in congress with his guy, Mccarthy, struggling to get the speakership. Would not shock me if the reason Desantis is so quiet regarding Trump these days, is that he's just biding his time before jumping in....and jumping in after the guy has been indicted would make a lot of sense. 
    I agree that his base is lower than it's ever been. He's losing some marginal magats. It's not cool to support this piece of shit anymore unless your circle of influence is made up of other pieces of shit.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
    2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
  • Options

    POOTWH's base is still 35% of voters. They're in it until death do them part.


    The poll, conducted from December 8 to December 12 among 1,614 U.S. adults, found that 31% of registered voters polled have a favorable view of Trump, while 59% view him unfavorably.

    That marks Trump’s lowest approval rating since July 2015, according to Quinnipiac, and is down from 37% who had a favorable opinion of him in July.

    Republican voters also recorded their lowest approval of Trump since March 2016, during the GOP presidential primaries, though a 70% majority of Republican respondents still view him favorably (down from 77% in July).

    Only 25% of independents have a positive view of Trump, which marks the lowest number since Quinnipiac started tracking the question in May 2015 and is down from 34% in July.

    A 70% majority of registered voters polled do not want Trump to be the GOP candidate in 2024, though a 56% majority of Republican voters do (38% of Republicans do not).

    A 47% plurality think that Trump committed a crime with his efforts to overturn the 2020 election results, while 43% think he did not.

    Trump’s popularity in the Quinnipiac poll is lower than other polls have recorded, with a FiveThirtyEight analysis showing Trump has a 40.2% approval rating on average as of Saturday.

    BIG NUMBER

    51%. That’s the share of registered voters who believe Trump should be disqualified entirely from running for president based on his recent call to “terminate” the Constitution in order to reverse his 2020 election loss.

    SURPRISING FACT

    In contrast to Trump’s low numbers, President Joe Biden saw his highest approval rating among registered voters since September 2021—though only 43% approve of the job he’s doing as president, while 49% disapprove, according to Quinnipiac.

    TANGENT

    The poll also looked at billionaire Elon Musk’s approval rating in light of the Tesla CEO recently taking control of Twitter and garnering widespread controversy for his leadership of the platform. Only 36% of respondents have a favorable view of Musk, though that’s higher than the 33% who disapprove of him, while 25% had no opinion. Respondents were also split on Musk’s handling of Twitter, with 37% each approving and disapproving of how he’s running the platform, while 25% had no opinion.

    KEY BACKGROUND

    Trump announced his candidacy for 2024 in November even as he’s seen his popularity sharply decline in the wake of the midterm elections. Many of the candidates he endorsed lost their races and prominent Republicans have pointed the finger at Trump’s influence for the election not resulting in the “red wave” of GOP wins that had been expected, with Democrats instead holding the Senate and winning many high-level state races. While Quinnipiac’s polling still showed a majority of Republican voters backing Trump as the party’s 2024 nominee, other recent polls have instead found Florida Governor Ron DeSantis (R) pulling ahead of Trump with the party’s base, and a CNN poll released Wednesday found approximately six in ten Republican and Republican-leaning voters would prefer someone besides Trump to be the 2024 candidate. Trump’s falling popularity comes as the ex-president has additionally faced mounting legal scrutiny, with the Justice Department moving forward with multiple investigations into his attempts to overturn the 2020 election and his handling of White House documents that were brought back to Mar-A-Lago. Trump and the Trump Organization also face a $250 million civil lawsuit in New York for alleged fraud—after the Trump Organization was already separately found guilty of tax fraud in another case last week—and the Manhattan District Attorney’s office has renewed a criminal investigation into Trump himself.

    Trump’s Approval Rating Lowest Since 2015 As Popularity With GOP Plunges, Poll Finds (forbes.com)
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,680
    mrussel1 said:
    Republicans saying Trump was bad but not breaking the law bad makes the reactions to him getting indicted even better. They’re setting the groundwork to side with him if that happens and will fuel him even more for his 2024 run. Watching them not be able to quit the guy is an amazing thing. 
    I'm not convinced there will be a DOJ prosecution.  In fact, I'd bet against it.  I think the classified docs case is much cleaner. 
    I’m giving indictment a 25% chance. Point being if it happens, republicans are already prepping support for his defense that it’s unfounded and too harsh. It pulls in even more primary support for him because he’s being targeted by Joe and the DOJ is politicized. “When will it stop?!”  
    OR....it opens the door for someone like Desantis to jump in the race by saying we cannot risk nominating someone who may very likely end up going to prison. 

    Trump's slumping support, which is real at this point, is what will dictate this...not them suddenly discovering some morality. 
    The possibility of Trump going to prison actually will help him. Magas will be inspired not just to save him, but save our country. DeSantis has the challenge of trying to walk the line of criticizing Trump and how corrupt he is while trying to pull in maga voters. Just being a passive aggressive dick may not be enough. 
    While this would most certainly have been true for the past 7 years and still is, to an extent, I think people overestimate his current level of support. He still has a big base but it is finally dwindling. You can see it even in in congress with his guy, Mccarthy, struggling to get the speakership. Would not shock me if the reason Desantis is so quiet regarding Trump these days, is that he's just biding his time before jumping in....and jumping in after the guy has been indicted would make a lot of sense. 
    I agree that his base is lower than it's ever been. He's losing some marginal magats. It's not cool to support this piece of shit anymore unless your circle of influence is made up of other pieces of shit.
    You can even feel it this week. I am not seeing a ton of magas come out and decry the referral yesterday. Nothing from people like Lindsey Graham. It's not like it used to be. He may very well still get the nomination, but he is so much weaker now then before, when he still never had a majority of support. Not a doubt in my mind. 
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    mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,935
    mrussel1 said:
    Republicans saying Trump was bad but not breaking the law bad makes the reactions to him getting indicted even better. They’re setting the groundwork to side with him if that happens and will fuel him even more for his 2024 run. Watching them not be able to quit the guy is an amazing thing. 
    I'm not convinced there will be a DOJ prosecution.  In fact, I'd bet against it.  I think the classified docs case is much cleaner. 
    I’m giving indictment a 25% chance. Point being if it happens, republicans are already prepping support for his defense that it’s unfounded and too harsh. It pulls in even more primary support for him because he’s being targeted by Joe and the DOJ is politicized. “When will it stop?!”  
    OR....it opens the door for someone like Desantis to jump in the race by saying we cannot risk nominating someone who may very likely end up going to prison. 

    Trump's slumping support, which is real at this point, is what will dictate this...not them suddenly discovering some morality. 
    The possibility of Trump going to prison actually will help him. Magas will be inspired not just to save him, but save our country. DeSantis has the challenge of trying to walk the line of criticizing Trump and how corrupt he is while trying to pull in maga voters. Just being a passive aggressive dick may not be enough. 
    While this would most certainly have been true for the past 7 years and still is, to an extent, I think people overestimate his current level of support. He still has a big base but it is finally dwindling. You can see it even in in congress with his guy, Mccarthy, struggling to get the speakership. Would not shock me if the reason Desantis is so quiet regarding Trump these days, is that he's just biding his time before jumping in....and jumping in after the guy has been indicted would make a lot of sense. 
    I agree that his base is lower than it's ever been. He's losing some marginal magats. It's not cool to support this piece of shit anymore unless your circle of influence is made up of other pieces of shit.
    You can even feel it this week. I am not seeing a ton of magas come out and decry the referral yesterday. Nothing from people like Lindsey Graham. It's not like it used to be. He may very well still get the nomination, but he is so much weaker now then before, when he still never had a majority of support. Not a doubt in my mind. 
    As Mitch Mitch said, “The entire nation knows who is responsible for that day. Beyond that, I don’t have any immediate observations,”
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    eddieceddiec Posts: 3,851
    edited December 2022
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Republicans saying Trump was bad but not breaking the law bad makes the reactions to him getting indicted even better. They’re setting the groundwork to side with him if that happens and will fuel him even more for his 2024 run. Watching them not be able to quit the guy is an amazing thing. 
    I'm not convinced there will be a DOJ prosecution.  In fact, I'd bet against it.  I think the classified docs case is much cleaner. 
    I’m giving indictment a 25% chance. Point being if it happens, republicans are already prepping support for his defense that it’s unfounded and too harsh. It pulls in even more primary support for him because he’s being targeted by Joe and the DOJ is politicized. “When will it stop?!”  
    OR....it opens the door for someone like Desantis to jump in the race by saying we cannot risk nominating someone who may very likely end up going to prison. 

    Trump's slumping support, which is real at this point, is what will dictate this...not them suddenly discovering some morality. 
    The possibility of Trump going to prison actually will help him. Magas will be inspired not just to save him, but save our country. DeSantis has the challenge of trying to walk the line of criticizing Trump and how corrupt he is while trying to pull in maga voters. Just being a passive aggressive dick may not be enough. 
    While this would most certainly have been true for the past 7 years and still is, to an extent, I think people overestimate his current level of support. He still has a big base but it is finally dwindling. You can see it even in in congress with his guy, Mccarthy, struggling to get the speakership. Would not shock me if the reason Desantis is so quiet regarding Trump these days, is that he's just biding his time before jumping in....and jumping in after the guy has been indicted would make a lot of sense. 
    I agree that his base is lower than it's ever been. He's losing some marginal magats. It's not cool to support this piece of shit anymore unless your circle of influence is made up of other pieces of shit.
    You can even feel it this week. I am not seeing a ton of magas come out and decry the referral yesterday. Nothing from people like Lindsey Graham. It's not like it used to be. He may very well still get the nomination, but he is so much weaker now then before, when he still never had a majority of support. Not a doubt in my mind. 
    As Mitch Mitch said, “The entire nation knows who is responsible for that day. Beyond that, I don’t have any immediate observations,”
    That is some veteran politiician statement. 
    Leave the door open to see how the voters react.
    Post edited by eddiec on
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,680

    https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-politics-florida-donald-trump-larry-hogan-dc73b08e64ef1abc0d933fc80883d6c4


    GOP’s usual embrace of Trump muted after criminal referral

    By STEVE PEOPLEStoday

    FILE - Former President Donald Trump gestures as he announces he is running for president for the third time as he speaks at Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Nov. 15, 2022. Trump is facing a new legal threat, but there is little sign that the Republican Party is defending the former president with the same intensity and urgency that defined his previous legal clashes. (AP Photo/Andrew Harnik, File)

    NEW YORK (AP) — The Republican Party quickly and forcefully rallied behind Donald Trump in the hours after federal agents seized classified documents from his Florida estate this summer.

    Four months later, that sense of intensity and urgency was missing — at least for now — after the Jan. 6 House committee voted to recommend the Justice Department bring criminal charges against him. Leading Republicans largely avoided the historic criminal referral Monday, while others pressed to weigh in offered muted defenses — or none at all.

    Republican Senate leader Mitch McConnell called for “an immediate and thorough explanation” after the FBI executed the August search warrant at Mar-a-Lago. On Monday, he told reporters he had only one “immediate observation” about the criminal referral: “The entire nation knows who is responsible for that day.” Sen. Josh Hawley, R-Mo., who called for Attorney General Merrick Garland’s resignation in the wake of the search, was silent on the committee’s referral, focusing instead on alleged FBI missteps.


    Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan, a Trump critic who suggested the former president likely benefited — politically, at least — from the FBI’s summertime search, said Trump was at least partly responsible for the deadly attack on the Capitol.



    “No man is above the law,” Hogan told The Associated Press shortly before the committee’s vote.

    The divergent responses are a sign of how quickly the political landscape has shifted for Trump as he faces a new legal threat and mounts a third bid for the presidency. It’s a marked change for a party that has been defined, above all, by its unconditional loyalty to Trump under any and all circumstances for the last six years.

    Monday’s hearing of the Jan. 6 House committee, composed of seven Democrats and two Republican Trump critics, likely marks Congress’ final attempt to hold the former president accountable for the attack on the U.S. Capitol by hundreds of his loyalists as elected officials worked to certify Democrat Joe Biden’s 2020 presidential election victory. The criminal referral, which is nonbinding, is the culmination of a yearlong investigation that included more than 1,000 witnesses, 10 televised public hearing and over 1 million documents.

    ADVERTISEMENT

    The committee, which Republican House leader Kevin McCarthy boycotted and dismissed as a “sham process,” will formally disband on Jan. 3 as Republicans take over the House majority.

    Ever defiant, Trump predicted the criminal referral would ultimately help him.

    “These folks don’t get it that when they come after me, people who love freedom rally around me. It strengthens me. What doesn’t kill me makes me stronger,” Trump said in a statement posted on his social network, condemning the criminal referral as “a partisan attempt to sideline me and the Republican Party.”

    This week’s vote comes just one month after Trump formally launched his 2024 White House campaign. He had hoped that his status as an announced candidate might give him new leverage in his many legal entanglements while warding off potential Republican primary challengers.


    Such hopes have yet to materialize. Early polls suggest the 76-year-old former president is no lock to win the 2024 nomination as emboldened Republican rivals prepare to line up to run against him.

    Already weakened, Trump is also bracing for the potential release of his tax returns, which he has worked for years to keep out of the public eye. The House Ways and Means Committee on Tuesday was scheduled to consider the release of six years of Trump’s taxes, as well as those related to his businesses, although it wasn’t immediately clear when any documents might be available to the public.

    Trump’s greatest liability heading into the next presidential election may have little to do with his legal challenges, however. Republicans are increasingly worried about his ability to win.

    The GOP’s concerns about Trump’s electability intensified after the November midterm elections, when Trump’s hand-picked candidates in several high-profile contests were defeated. The setbacks followed deeper Republican losses in the two previous national elections under Trump’s leadership.


    Indeed, the initial weeks of Trump’s third presidential campaign are going so poorly that some Trump allies are privately wondering whether he’s serious about his 2024 ambitions at all.

    Trump faced Republican demands to apologize for his decision last month to share a private meal with noted white supremacist Nick Fuentes. Days later, Trump called for the “termination” of parts of the Constitution over his lie that the 2020 election was stolen. And days after that, his hand-picked candidate in Georgia’s high-stakes Senate race, former football star Herschel Walker, lost his runoff election.

    Trump has not held a campaign event. Last week, after previewing a “MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT,” he unveiled a line of digital trading cards depicting him as a superhero.

    At the same time, Trump’s legal challenges are mounting.

    Garland last month appointed a special counsel to oversee the Department of Justice’s investigation into the presence of classified documents at Trump’s Florida estate as well as key aspects of a separate probe involving the insurrection and efforts to undo the 2020 election. The Fulton County, Georgia, district attorney is separately investigating attempts to overturn that state’s 2020 election results.


    It’s impossible to predict how much longer the investigations will last or whether the DOJ will take the unprecedented step of indicting a former president and current candidate. But Trump is no longer shielded from prosecution the way he was as president.

    And his party is becoming less willing to stand behind him.

    The Republican National Committee announced it would stop paying some of Trump’s legal bills after he launched his 2024 presidential campaign.

    Former Vice President Mike Pence, a 2024 presidential prospect himself who aggressively condemned the FBI after it seized classified documents from Trump’s estate, offered somewhat muted criticism of the Jan. 6 committee when given the chance.

    “As I wrote in my book, the president’s actions and words on Jan. 6 were reckless. But I don’t know that it’s criminal to take bad advice from lawyers,” Pence told Fox News Channel. He added, “When it comes to the Justice Department’s decision about bringing charges in the future, I would hope that they would not bring charges against the former president.”

    Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson, who is also considering a 2024 White House campaign, acknowledged Trump’s role in Jan. 6 but said the criminal referral “isn’t helpful” to the DOJ’s investigation.

    “The record is clear that former Pres. Trump is responsible for what happened on January 6, but accountability is most likely to come from the American people who are ready for our country to move beyond the events of January 6,” he tweeted.

    So far, only a handful of members of Congress have endorsed Trump’s 2024 bid.

    One of them, No. 3 House Republican Rep. Elise Stefanik, called the Democratic-led committee “unconstitutional and illegitimate.” She said Trump was well positioned heading into the 2024 presidential contest.

    “As of today — he announced a few weeks ago at this point — the only candidate is Donald Trump, and he is winning significantly against the field,” Stefanik told The Associated Press on Monday. “So, we’ll see what happens. But I think he’s in a very strong position.”

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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,626

     
    Trump taxes: House panel to release report on returns
    By JOSH BOAK, MEG KINNARD and BRIAN SLODYSKO
    6 mins ago

    WASHINGTON (AP) — The Democratic-controlled House Ways and Means Committee voted along party lines Tuesday to issue a report on Donald Trump’s tax returns — likely offering a deeper look into financial records that the former president tried to shield from the public.

    Lawmakers indicated after the vote that the world could see redacted copies Trump's tax filings within a couple of days.

    The dueling mix of animosity and loyalty inspired by Trump has made the release of the tax forms into a fever-pitched and yearslong grind, one that could continue well after the public learns more details about the finances, foreign dealings and possible net worth of the one-term Republican president.

    The report shows how much of a grip Trump still holds over U.S. politics despite losing reelection in 2020. Democratic lawmakers argued that transparency and the rule of law were at stake by voting to issue the report that legally rests on questions about IRS audits of the wealthy. Republicans countered that the release would set a dangerous precedent with regard to the loss of privacy protections.

    Tuesday's vote comes after a multiyear battle that ultimately resulted in the Supreme Court clearing the way last month for the Treasury Department to send the returns to Congress. The committee received six years of tax returns for Trump and some of his businesses.

    Democrats faced pressure to act aggressively in the final stretch of this year. With just two weeks left until Republicans formally take control of the House, Tuesday’s meeting was an opportunity for Democrats to disclose whatever information they have on Trump, a reputed multibillionaire who used his wealth as a selling point with voters to win the presidency in 2016.

    Committee Chairman Richard Neal, D-Mass., said supporting materials will be released along with the report. Texas Rep. Kevin Brady, the committee's top Republican, raised concerns about privacy as the documents could contain information such as Social Security numbers.

    Republicans have railed against the potential release, arguing that it would set a dangerous precedent.

    Before Tuesday’s meeting, Brady called any release of Trump’s tax records a “dangerous new political weapon” that “even Democrats will come to regret.”

    “Our concern is not whether the president should have made his tax returns public, as is traditional, nor about the accuracy of his tax returns,” Brady said. “Our concern is that, if taken, this committee action will set a terrible precedent that unleashes a dangerous new political weapon that reaches far beyond the former president and overturns decades of privacy protections for average Americans that have existed since the Watergate reforms.”

    Trump has long had a complicated relationship with his personal income taxes.

    As a presidential candidate in 2016, he broke decades of precedent by refusing to release his tax forms to the public. He bragged during a presidential debate that year that he was “smart” because he paid no federal taxes and later claimed he wouldn't personally benefit from the 2017 tax cuts he signed into law that favored people with extreme wealth, asking Americans to simply take him at his word.

    Tax records would have been a useful metric for judging his success in business. The image of a savvy businessman was key to a political brand honed during his years as a tabloid magnet and star of “The Apprentice” television show. They also could reveal any financial obligations — including foreign debts — that could influence how he governed.

    But Americans were largely in the dark about Trump's relationship with the IRS until October 2018 and September 2020, when The New York Times published two separate series based on leaked tax records.

    The Pulitzer Prize-winning 2018 articles showed how Trump received a modern equivalent of at least $413 million from his father's real estate holdings, with much of that money coming from what the Times called “tax dodges” in the 1990s. Trump sued the Times and his niece, Mary Trump, in 2021 for providing the records to the newspaper. In November, Mary Trump asked an appeals court to overturn a judge’s decision to reject her claims that her uncle and two of his siblings defrauded her of millions of dollars in a 2001 family settlement.

    The 2020 articles showed that Trump paid just $750 in federal income taxes in 2017 and 2018. Trump paid no income taxes at all in 10 of the past 15 years because he generally lost more money than he made.

    The articles exposed deep inequities in the U.S. tax code as Trump, a reputed multi-billionaire, paid little in federal income taxes. IRS figures indicate that the average tax filer paid roughly $12,200 in 2017, about 16 times more than the former president paid.

    Details about Trump's income from foreign operations and debt levels were also contained in the tax filings, which the former president derided as “fake news."

    At the time of the 2020 articles, Neal said he saw an ethical problem in Trump overseeing a federal agency that he has also battled with legal filings.

    "Now, Donald Trump is the boss of the agency he considers an adversary," Neal said in 2020. “It is essential that the IRS’s presidential audit program remain free of interference.”

    The Manhattan district attorney’s office also obtained copies of Trump’s tax records in February 2021 after a protracted legal fight that included two trips to the Supreme Court.

    The office, then led by District Attorney Cyrus Vance Jr., had subpoenaed Trump’s accounting firm in 2019, seeking access to eight years of Trump’s tax returns and related documents.

    The DA’s office issued the subpoena after Trump’s former personal lawyer Michael Cohen told Congress that Trump had misled tax officials, insurers and business associates about the value of his assets. Those allegations are the subject of a fraud lawsuit that New York Attorney General Letitia James filed against Trump and his company in September.

    Trump’s longtime accountant, Donald Bender, testified at the Trump Organization’s recent criminal trial that Trump reported losses on his tax returns every year for a decade, including nearly $700 million in 2009 and $200 million in 2010.

    Bender, a partner at Mazars USA LLP who spent years preparing Trump’s personal tax returns, said Trump’s reported losses from 2009 to 2018 included net operating losses from some of the many businesses he owns through his Trump Organization.

    The Trump Organization was convicted earlier this month on tax fraud charges for helping some executives dodge taxes on company-paid perks such as apartments and luxury cars.

    The current Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg, told The Associated Press in an interview last week that his office’s investigation into Trump and his businesses continues.

    “We’re going to follow the facts and continue to do our job,” Bragg said.

    Trump, who refused to release his returns during his 2016 presidential campaign and his four years in the White House while claiming that he was under IRS audit, has argued there is little to be gleaned from the tax returns even as he has fought to keep them private.

    “You can’t learn much from tax returns, but it is illegal to release them if they are not yours!” he complained on his social media network last weekend.

    ___

    Kinnard reported from Columbia, South Carolina. Associated Press writers Michael R. Sisak and Jill Colvin in New York contributed this report.


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    gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 22,391
    until it's legally required, it doesn't seem relevant to anything unless, as mrussel said, it shows criminality. 
    i believe it is legally required. since nixon got in trouble over his taxes.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,626
    until it's legally required, it doesn't seem relevant to anything unless, as mrussel said, it shows criminality. 
    i believe it is legally required. since nixon got in trouble over his taxes.

    its not. he did so voluntarily. so did every candidate since until fuckstick
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    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
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    The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,680
    The Pillow guy is insinuating DeSantis may have rigged the Florida election in his favor. 






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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,626
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

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    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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    mickeyratmickeyrat up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,626
    edited December 2022

    Rick Wilson's  The Enemies List
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