this will amount to yet another nothing. unfortunately.
maybe. but the phone records corroborate at least a portion of her story. lends credence to the rest.
what I fail to understand is , is not just her but other women also continuing contact or pursuit of business or job opportunities with the same men who assualt them.
there has been innumerable reasons he should have been taken down by now. but the checks and balances just aren't there. to be honest, they have never been there. i was reading up on clinton's impeachment. he got off when he absolutely shouldn't have. almost all senators voted along party lines, not with non-partisan facts. he should have been removed easily. it's all a sham.
unfortunately, in today's climate, most women have no choice, they normalize it to themselves that this is just how it is, they feel as if they did something to deserve it, endless reasons.
Wait....you think Clinton deserved to be removed from office?
Impeachment is about politics. Clinton was a popular president so he wasn't convicted in the senate. Nixon's popularity plunged after the tapes were released and he resigned to avoid embarrasment. Trump is historically unpopular, gotta see where his numbers are by the time this goes to the senate.
Clinton also sat for a video taped deposition, of which his perjury charge emanated, for lying about consensual sex during an investigation that began with a failed land deal in Arkansas. Team Trump Treason potentially committed ten acts of obstruction of justice in providing written answers to questions provided by Team Mueller. Imagine Team Trump Treason’s perjury charges if he were to be deposed on camera. The current Ukraine impeachment centers around election interference, which is what the Team Mueller investigation centered around. Can’t even compare the two investigations, from the reason that initiated them, cooperation of witnesses and justice department involvement, to how they were conducted and the ultimate result (we’re still waiting on that piece but it ain’t gonna be the same).
not everything is "being compared" to. trump is not the benchmark for every other incident in history. clinton lied under oath. full stop. just because trump is a corrupt and potentially treasonous POS doesn't mean every other person less corrupt than him gets a pass. that's not how this works.
Except one was a real witch hunt and one is not. I don’t remember “sexual assault” being one of the articles of impeachment against Clinton. Regardless, impeachment is not a legal process, and as Juggler stated, it’s a political process, which ultimately means it’s a “popularity” contest. Lying about a sexual affair during an investigation that started out as an investigation of a land deal isn’t the same degree of perjury as lying about a quid pro quo to influence an election, not to compare. At least a majority of elected senators thought so.
If it’s not being “compared,” then why did you bring up Clinton’s impeachment in the Team Trump Treason thread?
I fully understand it's not a legal process. it seems to be a political/popularity issue, but it's not supposed to be.
Yes it is. Presidents can't be charged with crimes while in office so the founders gave this political process power to congress to hold the president accountable.
If Senate R's remove Trumpito, ("We had no choice...") they'd still have an R in the executive, someone WAY closer to "traditional" (ie awful) R policy, and someone who wouldn't embarrass the snot out of them on twitter every day, pulling troops out of places they should stay and slamming NATO allies while figuratively BLOWING dictators. Mike Pence would NEVER.
Oh, turns out Pence is COMPLICIT and INVOLVED. Up above his chest in it.
If Senate R's remove Trumpito, ("We had no choice...") they'd still have an R in the executive, someone WAY closer to "traditional" (ie awful) R policy, and someone who wouldn't embarrass the snot out of them on twitter every day, pulling troops out of places they should stay and slamming NATO allies while figuratively BLOWING dictators. Mike Pence would NEVER.
Oh, turns out Pence is COMPLICIT and INVOLVED. Up above his chest in it.
this will amount to yet another nothing. unfortunately.
maybe. but the phone records corroborate at least a portion of her story. lends credence to the rest.
what I fail to understand is , is not just her but other women also continuing contact or pursuit of business or job opportunities with the same men who assualt them.
there has been innumerable reasons he should have been taken down by now. but the checks and balances just aren't there. to be honest, they have never been there. i was reading up on clinton's impeachment. he got off when he absolutely shouldn't have. almost all senators voted along party lines, not with non-partisan facts. he should have been removed easily. it's all a sham.
unfortunately, in today's climate, most women have no choice, they normalize it to themselves that this is just how it is, they feel as if they did something to deserve it, endless reasons.
Wait....you think Clinton deserved to be removed from office?
Impeachment is about politics. Clinton was a popular president so he wasn't convicted in the senate. Nixon's popularity plunged after the tapes were released and he resigned to avoid embarrasment. Trump is historically unpopular, gotta see where his numbers are by the time this goes to the senate.
Clinton also sat for a video taped deposition, of which his perjury charge emanated, for lying about consensual sex during an investigation that began with a failed land deal in Arkansas. Team Trump Treason potentially committed ten acts of obstruction of justice in providing written answers to questions provided by Team Mueller. Imagine Team Trump Treason’s perjury charges if he were to be deposed on camera. The current Ukraine impeachment centers around election interference, which is what the Team Mueller investigation centered around. Can’t even compare the two investigations, from the reason that initiated them, cooperation of witnesses and justice department involvement, to how they were conducted and the ultimate result (we’re still waiting on that piece but it ain’t gonna be the same).
not everything is "being compared" to. trump is not the benchmark for every other incident in history. clinton lied under oath. full stop. just because trump is a corrupt and potentially treasonous POS doesn't mean every other person less corrupt than him gets a pass. that's not how this works.
Except one was a real witch hunt and one is not. I don’t remember “sexual assault” being one of the articles of impeachment against Clinton. Regardless, impeachment is not a legal process, and as Juggler stated, it’s a political process, which ultimately means it’s a “popularity” contest. Lying about a sexual affair during an investigation that started out as an investigation of a land deal isn’t the same degree of perjury as lying about a quid pro quo to influence an election, not to compare. At least a majority of elected senators thought so.
If it’s not being “compared,” then why did you bring up Clinton’s impeachment in the Team Trump Treason thread?
I fully understand it's not a legal process. it seems to be a political/popularity issue, but it's not supposed to be.
Yes it is. Presidents can't be charged with crimes while in office so the founders gave this political process power to congress to hold the president accountable.
ok, we're just not understanding each other here. I KNOW A PRESIDENT CANNOT BE CHARGED WHILE IN OFFICE. I KNOW IT'S NOT A CRIMINAL PROCEEDING. When I stated it shouldn't be a political process, I suppose I should have said it shouldn't be a partisan process. but it is.
impeachment is partisan. at least the 2 in my lifetime has been.
i think what is going to happen is all of this is going to become public in hearings. republicans will distract and bring obama and the clintons into it because their MO is whataboutism. they have nothing else. everyone knows they would have impeached obama for much less, and the dems will point that out and make that case to the public. the dems will point out that the gop was once the law and order party and they are abdicating that, and that will hurt the gop. once the whataboutism fails and the polls show 55-60% of americans favor impeachment and removal from office, the sane gop senators are going to start having conversations about how their own voters will vote for unnamed democrats over incumbant senators, and then the gop senators will begin to pull away. i now believe that once trump loses 2 or 3 sane gop senators it will be over. he will resign before he is voted out of office. he will try to make a deal with a country with no extradition so he can try to avoid being arrested the moment he is no longer president.
stone will not flip on him because he has been promised a pardon. but trump will resign and either pence will pardon stone, or stone will have been betrayed by the trump administration.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
this will amount to yet another nothing. unfortunately.
maybe. but the phone records corroborate at least a portion of her story. lends credence to the rest.
what I fail to understand is , is not just her but other women also continuing contact or pursuit of business or job opportunities with the same men who assualt them.
there has been innumerable reasons he should have been taken down by now. but the checks and balances just aren't there. to be honest, they have never been there. i was reading up on clinton's impeachment. he got off when he absolutely shouldn't have. almost all senators voted along party lines, not with non-partisan facts. he should have been removed easily. it's all a sham.
unfortunately, in today's climate, most women have no choice, they normalize it to themselves that this is just how it is, they feel as if they did something to deserve it, endless reasons.
Wait....you think Clinton deserved to be removed from office?
Impeachment is about politics. Clinton was a popular president so he wasn't convicted in the senate. Nixon's popularity plunged after the tapes were released and he resigned to avoid embarrasment. Trump is historically unpopular, gotta see where his numbers are by the time this goes to the senate.
Clinton also sat for a video taped deposition, of which his perjury charge emanated, for lying about consensual sex during an investigation that began with a failed land deal in Arkansas. Team Trump Treason potentially committed ten acts of obstruction of justice in providing written answers to questions provided by Team Mueller. Imagine Team Trump Treason’s perjury charges if he were to be deposed on camera. The current Ukraine impeachment centers around election interference, which is what the Team Mueller investigation centered around. Can’t even compare the two investigations, from the reason that initiated them, cooperation of witnesses and justice department involvement, to how they were conducted and the ultimate result (we’re still waiting on that piece but it ain’t gonna be the same).
not everything is "being compared" to. trump is not the benchmark for every other incident in history. clinton lied under oath. full stop. just because trump is a corrupt and potentially treasonous POS doesn't mean every other person less corrupt than him gets a pass. that's not how this works.
Except one was a real witch hunt and one is not. I don’t remember “sexual assault” being one of the articles of impeachment against Clinton. Regardless, impeachment is not a legal process, and as Juggler stated, it’s a political process, which ultimately means it’s a “popularity” contest. Lying about a sexual affair during an investigation that started out as an investigation of a land deal isn’t the same degree of perjury as lying about a quid pro quo to influence an election, not to compare. At least a majority of elected senators thought so.
If it’s not being “compared,” then why did you bring up Clinton’s impeachment in the Team Trump Treason thread?
I fully understand it's not a legal process. it seems to be a political/popularity issue, but it's not supposed to be. it's supposed to be an employability issue. and lying under oath is a very good reason to remove from office. you can sugar coat it all you want, it was just a separate finding from a different issue, it makes no difference. he lied under oath. you lie to your superiors, you are gone. that's it. if I get caught doing something by my work and I'm questioned about it, and I lie to them during questioning, I'm history.
a VERY SLIM majority of elected senators thought so, only because the democrats controlled the senate. come on. seems like you're trying to paint this is as both parties came to a consensus that he was innocent. haha.
all I said was I was reading up on clinton's impeachment as I got interested in it after thinking about how all these idiots vote along party lines and not along what's right and wrong, so I looked up how each senator voted during clinton's trial. I wasn't comparing the wrong doings of either. only the process which is contained within both. not sure why anyone has to constantly defend subjects they bring up here to you, especially when it's relevant.
Yes, it is an "employability issue," and the boss, the American people, through their elected representatives in the Senate, refused to fire Clinton because they believed his lying under oath for the transgression didn't rise to a fireable offense. Employees in work places lie all the time during investigations, sometimes while they're on unpaid leave. The period of unpaid leave may be considered "punishment enough."
To the first bolded statement, maybe Clinton had a better defense attorney representing him during the senate trial? The job of the repubs, in this case, was to convince 67 senators to vote to remove from office as the punishment. Maybe the repub prosecutors sucked badly or Clinton's defense attorney was stellar in her defense. If you can find a video of her on the senate floor in her defense, I highly suggest that you watch. Not everything is as black and white as you'd like it to be, particularly with the law, or in this case, politics or popularity. And nice projection on your part regarding my thoughts on consensus, haha.
To the second bolded part, you stated that Clinton should have been removed easily. Do you think the same of Team Trump Trump Treason? Do you think the impeachment process is easy? And feel free to ignore having to "having to constantly defend subjects" to me. You control you, I don't.
yes, I think trump should be removed. no, I don't think the impeachment process is easy. it's long and drawn out as it should be. it shouldn't be a cake walk to impeach or remove a sitting president. when I said "easily", I didn't mean it literally as in on a whim. I meant easily as in "lied under oath, so it's a slam dunk to me" easily. I don't think everything is black and white. But I don't constantly give dems a pass just because the other side is worse.
And trump won't be removed because the elected representatives will refuse to fire trump as well. the majority of clinton's "bosses" were dems, and the majority of trump's "bosses" are republicans. obviously not a coincidence. that's what I meant about the process being a sham, and the only reason I mentioned clinton's impeachment. it was designed with the thought that senators would vote what's good for the country, not for their party. that doesn't happen. hasn't in a long time.
you don't control me? then explain to me why I keep waking up in a cold sweat shouting:
“There was no collusion.”
“I have nothing to hide.”
“I don’t know any Russians.”
“I’ll sit down and talk with anyone.”
“We do everything by the book.”
“Only the guilty plea the fifth.”
“Very legal, very cool.”
“Fully exonerated.”
“Essentially no obstruction.”
“Very friendly and totally appropriate.”
Follow the money from Russia with love and a PTape all the way to impeachment every night?
impeachment is partisan. at least the 2 in my lifetime has been.
i think what is going to happen is all of this is going to become public in hearings. republicans will distract and bring obama and the clintons into it because their MO is whataboutism. they have nothing else. everyone knows they would have impeached obama for much less, and the dems will point that out and make that case to the public. the dems will point out that the gop was once the law and order party and they are abdicating that, and that will hurt the gop. once the whataboutism fails and the polls show 55-60% of americans favor impeachment and removal from office, the sane gop senators are going to start having conversations about how their own voters will vote for unnamed democrats over incumbant senators, and then the gop senators will begin to pull away. i now believe that once trump loses 2 or 3 sane gop senators it will be over. he will resign before he is voted out of office. he will try to make a deal with a country with no extradition so he can try to avoid being arrested the moment he is no longer president.
stone will not flip on him because he has been promised a pardon. but trump will resign and either pence will pardon stone, or stone will have been betrayed by the trump administration.
I sincerely hope you're right. I just don't see it.
this will amount to yet another nothing. unfortunately.
maybe. but the phone records corroborate at least a portion of her story. lends credence to the rest.
what I fail to understand is , is not just her but other women also continuing contact or pursuit of business or job opportunities with the same men who assualt them.
not everything is "being compared" to. trump is not the benchmark for every other incident in history. clinton lied under oath. full stop. just because trump is a corrupt and potentially treasonous POS doesn't mean every other person less corrupt than him gets a pass. that's not how this works.
Except one was a real witch hunt and one is not. I don’t remember “sexual assault” being one of the articles of impeachment against Clinton. Regardless, impeachment is not a legal process, and as Juggler stated, it’s a political process, which ultimately means it’s a “popularity” contest. Lying about a sexual affair during an investigation that started out as an investigation of a land deal isn’t the same degree of perjury as lying about a quid pro quo to influence an election, not to compare. At least a majority of elected senators thought so.
If it’s not being “compared,” then why did you bring up Clinton’s impeachment in the Team Trump Treason thread?
I fully understand it's not a legal process. it seems to be a political/popularity issue, but it's not supposed to be. it's supposed to be an employability issue. and lying under oath is a very good reason to remove from office. you can sugar coat it all you want, it was just a separate finding from a different issue, it makes no difference. he lied under oath. you lie to your superiors, you are gone. that's it. if I get caught doing something by my work and I'm questioned about it, and I lie to them during questioning, I'm history.
a VERY SLIM majority of elected senators thought so, only because the democrats controlled the senate. come on. seems like you're trying to paint this is as both parties came to a consensus that he was innocent. haha.
all I said was I was reading up on clinton's impeachment as I got interested in it after thinking about how all these idiots vote along party lines and not along what's right and wrong, so I looked up how each senator voted during clinton's trial. I wasn't comparing the wrong doings of either. only the process which is contained within both. not sure why anyone has to constantly defend subjects they bring up here to you, especially when it's relevant.
Yes, it is an "employability issue," and the boss, the American people, through their elected representatives in the Senate, refused to fire Clinton because they believed his lying under oath for the transgression didn't rise to a fireable offense. Employees in work places lie all the time during investigations, sometimes while they're on unpaid leave. The period of unpaid leave may be considered "punishment enough."
To the first bolded statement, maybe Clinton had a better defense attorney representing him during the senate trial? The job of the repubs, in this case, was to convince 67 senators to vote to remove from office as the punishment. Maybe the repub prosecutors sucked badly or Clinton's defense attorney was stellar in her defense. If you can find a video of her on the senate floor in her defense, I highly suggest that you watch. Not everything is as black and white as you'd like it to be, particularly with the law, or in this case, politics or popularity. And nice projection on your part regarding my thoughts on consensus, haha.
To the second bolded part, you stated that Clinton should have been removed easily. Do you think the same of Team Trump Trump Treason? Do you think the impeachment process is easy? And feel free to ignore having to "having to constantly defend subjects" to me. You control you, I don't.
yes, I think trump should be removed. no, I don't think the impeachment process is easy. it's long and drawn out as it should be. it shouldn't be a cake walk to impeach or remove a sitting president. when I said "easily", I didn't mean it literally as in on a whim. I meant easily as in "lied under oath, so it's a slam dunk to me" easily. I don't think everything is black and white. But I don't constantly give dems a pass just because the other side is worse.
And trump won't be removed because the elected representatives will refuse to fire trump as well. the majority of clinton's "bosses" were dems, and the majority of trump's "bosses" are republicans. obviously not a coincidence. that's what I meant about the process being a sham, and the only reason I mentioned clinton's impeachment. it was designed with the thought that senators would vote what's good for the country, not for their party. that doesn't happen. hasn't in a long time.
Asterisks denote up for re-election. 11 vote to convict, need 9 of13 to join along. 20 of the repubs are up for re-election. Public hearings begin next week. Kentucky appears to have gone blue in a statewide election. Pressure is going to be immense. More details emerge from Roger Dodger Stoned trial and tax return case. The “system” is working as it should.
certainly dont want to start another precednt asshole thread....
Stone Trial Links Trump More Closely to 2016 Effort to Obtain Stolen Emails https://nyti.ms/2PSTBZ3
Trump More Closely to 2016 Effort to Obtain Stolen Emails
Newly revealed calls between President Trump and Roger Stone dovetailed with key developments in the theft of Democratic emails, prosecutors said.
WASHINGTON — President Trump was more personally involved in his campaign’s effort to obtain Democratic emails stolen by Russian operatives in 2016 than was previously known, phone records introduced in federal court on Wednesday suggested.
Federal prosecutors disclosed the calls at the start of the criminal trial of Roger J. Stone Jr., Mr. Trump’s longtime friend, who faces charges of lying to federal investigators about his efforts to contact WikiLeaks during the 2016 campaign. Russian intelligence officers had funneled tens of thousands of emails they stole from Democratic computers to WikiLeaks, which released them at critical points during the presidential race.
The records suggest that Mr. Trump spoke to Mr. Stone repeatedly during the summer of 2016, at a time when Mr. Stone was aggressively seeking to obtain the stolen emails from Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks. The prosecutors noted that they did not know what Mr. Stone and Mr. Trump had discussed. But they stressed that the timing of their calls dovetailed with other key developments related to the theft and release of the Democratic emails.
The phone records are the first concrete suggestion that Mr. Trump may have had a direct role in his campaign’s effort to benefit from Russia’s hidden hand in the election. At the very least, the calls and other evidence underscored the eagerness of senior campaign officials and other Trump associates to reap the rewards of what the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, later called a sophisticated and alarming covert Russian influence operation.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
this will amount to yet another nothing. unfortunately.
maybe. but the phone records corroborate at least a portion of her story. lends credence to the rest.
what I fail to understand is , is not just her but other women also continuing contact or pursuit of business or job opportunities with the same men who assualt them.
there has been innumerable reasons he should have been taken down by now. but the checks and balances just aren't there. to be honest, they have never been there. i was reading up on clinton's impeachment. he got off when he absolutely shouldn't have. almost all senators voted along party lines, not with non-partisan facts. he should have been removed easily. it's all a sham.
unfortunately, in today's climate, most women have no choice, they normalize it to themselves that this is just how it is, they feel as if they did something to deserve it, endless reasons.
Wait....you think Clinton deserved to be removed from office?
Impeachment is about politics. Clinton was a popular president so he wasn't convicted in the senate. Nixon's popularity plunged after the tapes were released and he resigned to avoid embarrasment. Trump is historically unpopular, gotta see where his numbers are by the time this goes to the senate.
Clinton also sat for a video taped deposition, of which his perjury charge emanated, for lying about consensual sex during an investigation that began with a failed land deal in Arkansas. Team Trump Treason potentially committed ten acts of obstruction of justice in providing written answers to questions provided by Team Mueller. Imagine Team Trump Treason’s perjury charges if he were to be deposed on camera. The current Ukraine impeachment centers around election interference, which is what the Team Mueller investigation centered around. Can’t even compare the two investigations, from the reason that initiated them, cooperation of witnesses and justice department involvement, to how they were conducted and the ultimate result (we’re still waiting on that piece but it ain’t gonna be the same).
not everything is "being compared" to. trump is not the benchmark for every other incident in history. clinton lied under oath. full stop. just because trump is a corrupt and potentially treasonous POS doesn't mean every other person less corrupt than him gets a pass. that's not how this works.
Except one was a real witch hunt and one is not. I don’t remember “sexual assault” being one of the articles of impeachment against Clinton. Regardless, impeachment is not a legal process, and as Juggler stated, it’s a political process, which ultimately means it’s a “popularity” contest. Lying about a sexual affair during an investigation that started out as an investigation of a land deal isn’t the same degree of perjury as lying about a quid pro quo to influence an election, not to compare. At least a majority of elected senators thought so.
If it’s not being “compared,” then why did you bring up Clinton’s impeachment in the Team Trump Treason thread?
I fully understand it's not a legal process. it seems to be a political/popularity issue, but it's not supposed to be.
Yes it is. Presidents can't be charged with crimes while in office so the founders gave this political process power to congress to hold the president accountable.
ok, we're just not understanding each other here. I KNOW A PRESIDENT CANNOT BE CHARGED WHILE IN OFFICE. I KNOW IT'S NOT A CRIMINAL PROCEEDING. When I stated it shouldn't be a political process, I suppose I should have said it shouldn't be a partisan process. but it is.
But....the reason Nixon resigned was because REPUBLICAN congressmen went to him and told him he would be impeached and convicted in the senate. There is literally no way a president can be convicted in the senate without bipartisan support--unless one party, some day, gains control of 2/3's of the senate which will never happen.
So I believe your original point about checks and balances never having been there is inherently flawed and just not true.
this will amount to yet another nothing. unfortunately.
maybe. but the phone records corroborate at least a portion of her story. lends credence to the rest.
what I fail to understand is , is not just her but other women also continuing contact or pursuit of business or job opportunities with the same men who assualt them.
not everything is "being compared" to. trump is not the benchmark for every other incident in history. clinton lied under oath. full stop. just because trump is a corrupt and potentially treasonous POS doesn't mean every other person less corrupt than him gets a pass. that's not how this works.
Except one was a real witch hunt and one is not. I don’t remember “sexual assault” being one of the articles of impeachment against Clinton. Regardless, impeachment is not a legal process, and as Juggler stated, it’s a political process, which ultimately means it’s a “popularity” contest. Lying about a sexual affair during an investigation that started out as an investigation of a land deal isn’t the same degree of perjury as lying about a quid pro quo to influence an election, not to compare. At least a majority of elected senators thought so.
If it’s not being “compared,” then why did you bring up Clinton’s impeachment in the Team Trump Treason thread?
I fully understand it's not a legal process. it seems to be a political/popularity issue, but it's not supposed to be. it's supposed to be an employability issue. and lying under oath is a very good reason to remove from office. you can sugar coat it all you want, it was just a separate finding from a different issue, it makes no difference. he lied under oath. you lie to your superiors, you are gone. that's it. if I get caught doing something by my work and I'm questioned about it, and I lie to them during questioning, I'm history.
a VERY SLIM majority of elected senators thought so, only because the democrats controlled the senate. come on. seems like you're trying to paint this is as both parties came to a consensus that he was innocent. haha.
all I said was I was reading up on clinton's impeachment as I got interested in it after thinking about how all these idiots vote along party lines and not along what's right and wrong, so I looked up how each senator voted during clinton's trial. I wasn't comparing the wrong doings of either. only the process which is contained within both. not sure why anyone has to constantly defend subjects they bring up here to you, especially when it's relevant.
Yes, it is an "employability issue," and the boss, the American people, through their elected representatives in the Senate, refused to fire Clinton because they believed his lying under oath for the transgression didn't rise to a fireable offense. Employees in work places lie all the time during investigations, sometimes while they're on unpaid leave. The period of unpaid leave may be considered "punishment enough."
To the first bolded statement, maybe Clinton had a better defense attorney representing him during the senate trial? The job of the repubs, in this case, was to convince 67 senators to vote to remove from office as the punishment. Maybe the repub prosecutors sucked badly or Clinton's defense attorney was stellar in her defense. If you can find a video of her on the senate floor in her defense, I highly suggest that you watch. Not everything is as black and white as you'd like it to be, particularly with the law, or in this case, politics or popularity. And nice projection on your part regarding my thoughts on consensus, haha.
To the second bolded part, you stated that Clinton should have been removed easily. Do you think the same of Team Trump Trump Treason? Do you think the impeachment process is easy? And feel free to ignore having to "having to constantly defend subjects" to me. You control you, I don't.
yes, I think trump should be removed. no, I don't think the impeachment process is easy. it's long and drawn out as it should be. it shouldn't be a cake walk to impeach or remove a sitting president. when I said "easily", I didn't mean it literally as in on a whim. I meant easily as in "lied under oath, so it's a slam dunk to me" easily. I don't think everything is black and white. But I don't constantly give dems a pass just because the other side is worse.
And trump won't be removed because the elected representatives will refuse to fire trump as well. the majority of clinton's "bosses" were dems, and the majority of trump's "bosses" are republicans. obviously not a coincidence. that's what I meant about the process being a sham, and the only reason I mentioned clinton's impeachment. it was designed with the thought that senators would vote what's good for the country, not for their party. that doesn't happen. hasn't in a long time.
Asterisks denote up for re-election. 11 vote to convict, need 9 of13 to join along. 20 of the repubs are up for re-election. Public hearings begin next week. Kentucky appears to have gone blue in a statewide election. Pressure is going to be immense. More details emerge from Roger Dodger Stoned trial and tax return case. The “system” is working as it should.
this will amount to yet another nothing. unfortunately.
maybe. but the phone records corroborate at least a portion of her story. lends credence to the rest.
what I fail to understand is , is not just her but other women also continuing contact or pursuit of business or job opportunities with the same men who assualt them.
not everything is "being compared" to. trump is not the benchmark for every other incident in history. clinton lied under oath. full stop. just because trump is a corrupt and potentially treasonous POS doesn't mean every other person less corrupt than him gets a pass. that's not how this works.
Except one was a real witch hunt and one is not. I don’t remember “sexual assault” being one of the articles of impeachment against Clinton. Regardless, impeachment is not a legal process, and as Juggler stated, it’s a political process, which ultimately means it’s a “popularity” contest. Lying about a sexual affair during an investigation that started out as an investigation of a land deal isn’t the same degree of perjury as lying about a quid pro quo to influence an election, not to compare. At least a majority of elected senators thought so.
If it’s not being “compared,” then why did you bring up Clinton’s impeachment in the Team Trump Treason thread?
I fully understand it's not a legal process. it seems to be a political/popularity issue, but it's not supposed to be. it's supposed to be an employability issue. and lying under oath is a very good reason to remove from office. you can sugar coat it all you want, it was just a separate finding from a different issue, it makes no difference. he lied under oath. you lie to your superiors, you are gone. that's it. if I get caught doing something by my work and I'm questioned about it, and I lie to them during questioning, I'm history.
a VERY SLIM majority of elected senators thought so, only because the democrats controlled the senate. come on. seems like you're trying to paint this is as both parties came to a consensus that he was innocent. haha.
all I said was I was reading up on clinton's impeachment as I got interested in it after thinking about how all these idiots vote along party lines and not along what's right and wrong, so I looked up how each senator voted during clinton's trial. I wasn't comparing the wrong doings of either. only the process which is contained within both. not sure why anyone has to constantly defend subjects they bring up here to you, especially when it's relevant.
Yes, it is an "employability issue," and the boss, the American people, through their elected representatives in the Senate, refused to fire Clinton because they believed his lying under oath for the transgression didn't rise to a fireable offense. Employees in work places lie all the time during investigations, sometimes while they're on unpaid leave. The period of unpaid leave may be considered "punishment enough."
To the first bolded statement, maybe Clinton had a better defense attorney representing him during the senate trial? The job of the repubs, in this case, was to convince 67 senators to vote to remove from office as the punishment. Maybe the repub prosecutors sucked badly or Clinton's defense attorney was stellar in her defense. If you can find a video of her on the senate floor in her defense, I highly suggest that you watch. Not everything is as black and white as you'd like it to be, particularly with the law, or in this case, politics or popularity. And nice projection on your part regarding my thoughts on consensus, haha.
To the second bolded part, you stated that Clinton should have been removed easily. Do you think the same of Team Trump Trump Treason? Do you think the impeachment process is easy? And feel free to ignore having to "having to constantly defend subjects" to me. You control you, I don't.
yes, I think trump should be removed. no, I don't think the impeachment process is easy. it's long and drawn out as it should be. it shouldn't be a cake walk to impeach or remove a sitting president. when I said "easily", I didn't mean it literally as in on a whim. I meant easily as in "lied under oath, so it's a slam dunk to me" easily. I don't think everything is black and white. But I don't constantly give dems a pass just because the other side is worse.
And trump won't be removed because the elected representatives will refuse to fire trump as well. the majority of clinton's "bosses" were dems, and the majority of trump's "bosses" are republicans. obviously not a coincidence. that's what I meant about the process being a sham, and the only reason I mentioned clinton's impeachment. it was designed with the thought that senators would vote what's good for the country, not for their party. that doesn't happen. hasn't in a long time.
Asterisks denote up for re-election. 11 vote to convict, need 9 of13 to join along. 20 of the repubs are up for re-election. Public hearings begin next week. Kentucky appears to have gone blue in a statewide election. Pressure is going to be immense. More details emerge from Roger Dodger Stoned trial and tax return case. The “system” is working as it should.
* had to delete posts to post
Are these your notes?
I can neither confirm nor deny the provenance of the notes, taken, on what appears to be scrap paper. They may or may not have been found in an employee break room. Or just as likely, or not, on a commuter train or perhaps in an airport terminal. If I may, I’d like to consult with legal counsel?
this will amount to yet another nothing. unfortunately.
maybe. but the phone records corroborate at least a portion of her story. lends credence to the rest.
what I fail to understand is , is not just her but other women also continuing contact or pursuit of business or job opportunities with the same men who assualt them.
there has been innumerable reasons he should have been taken down by now. but the checks and balances just aren't there. to be honest, they have never been there. i was reading up on clinton's impeachment. he got off when he absolutely shouldn't have. almost all senators voted along party lines, not with non-partisan facts. he should have been removed easily. it's all a sham.
unfortunately, in today's climate, most women have no choice, they normalize it to themselves that this is just how it is, they feel as if they did something to deserve it, endless reasons.
Wait....you think Clinton deserved to be removed from office?
Impeachment is about politics. Clinton was a popular president so he wasn't convicted in the senate. Nixon's popularity plunged after the tapes were released and he resigned to avoid embarrasment. Trump is historically unpopular, gotta see where his numbers are by the time this goes to the senate.
Clinton also sat for a video taped deposition, of which his perjury charge emanated, for lying about consensual sex during an investigation that began with a failed land deal in Arkansas. Team Trump Treason potentially committed ten acts of obstruction of justice in providing written answers to questions provided by Team Mueller. Imagine Team Trump Treason’s perjury charges if he were to be deposed on camera. The current Ukraine impeachment centers around election interference, which is what the Team Mueller investigation centered around. Can’t even compare the two investigations, from the reason that initiated them, cooperation of witnesses and justice department involvement, to how they were conducted and the ultimate result (we’re still waiting on that piece but it ain’t gonna be the same).
not everything is "being compared" to. trump is not the benchmark for every other incident in history. clinton lied under oath. full stop. just because trump is a corrupt and potentially treasonous POS doesn't mean every other person less corrupt than him gets a pass. that's not how this works.
Except one was a real witch hunt and one is not. I don’t remember “sexual assault” being one of the articles of impeachment against Clinton. Regardless, impeachment is not a legal process, and as Juggler stated, it’s a political process, which ultimately means it’s a “popularity” contest. Lying about a sexual affair during an investigation that started out as an investigation of a land deal isn’t the same degree of perjury as lying about a quid pro quo to influence an election, not to compare. At least a majority of elected senators thought so.
If it’s not being “compared,” then why did you bring up Clinton’s impeachment in the Team Trump Treason thread?
I fully understand it's not a legal process. it seems to be a political/popularity issue, but it's not supposed to be. it's supposed to be an employability issue. and lying under oath is a very good reason to remove from office. you can sugar coat it all you want, it was just a separate finding from a different issue, it makes no difference. he lied under oath. you lie to your superiors, you are gone. that's it. if I get caught doing something by my work and I'm questioned about it, and I lie to them during questioning, I'm history.
a VERY SLIM majority of elected senators thought so, only because the democrats controlled the senate. come on. seems like you're trying to paint this is as both parties came to a consensus that he was innocent. haha.
all I said was I was reading up on clinton's impeachment as I got interested in it after thinking about how all these idiots vote along party lines and not along what's right and wrong, so I looked up how each senator voted during clinton's trial. I wasn't comparing the wrong doings of either. only the process which is contained within both. not sure why anyone has to constantly defend subjects they bring up here to you, especially when it's relevant.
this will amount to yet another nothing. unfortunately.
maybe. but the phone records corroborate at least a portion of her story. lends credence to the rest.
what I fail to understand is , is not just her but other women also continuing contact or pursuit of business or job opportunities with the same men who assualt them.
there has been innumerable reasons he should have been taken down by now. but the checks and balances just aren't there. to be honest, they have never been there. i was reading up on clinton's impeachment. he got off when he absolutely shouldn't have. almost all senators voted along party lines, not with non-partisan facts. he should have been removed easily. it's all a sham.
unfortunately, in today's climate, most women have no choice, they normalize it to themselves that this is just how it is, they feel as if they did something to deserve it, endless reasons.
Wait....you think Clinton deserved to be removed from office?
Impeachment is about politics. Clinton was a popular president so he wasn't convicted in the senate. Nixon's popularity plunged after the tapes were released and he resigned to avoid embarrasment. Trump is historically unpopular, gotta see where his numbers are by the time this goes to the senate.
Clinton also sat for a video taped deposition, of which his perjury charge emanated, for lying about consensual sex during an investigation that began with a failed land deal in Arkansas. Team Trump Treason potentially committed ten acts of obstruction of justice in providing written answers to questions provided by Team Mueller. Imagine Team Trump Treason’s perjury charges if he were to be deposed on camera. The current Ukraine impeachment centers around election interference, which is what the Team Mueller investigation centered around. Can’t even compare the two investigations, from the reason that initiated them, cooperation of witnesses and justice department involvement, to how they were conducted and the ultimate result (we’re still waiting on that piece but it ain’t gonna be the same).
not everything is "being compared" to. trump is not the benchmark for every other incident in history. clinton lied under oath. full stop. just because trump is a corrupt and potentially treasonous POS doesn't mean every other person less corrupt than him gets a pass. that's not how this works.
Except one was a real witch hunt and one is not. I don’t remember “sexual assault” being one of the articles of impeachment against Clinton. Regardless, impeachment is not a legal process, and as Juggler stated, it’s a political process, which ultimately means it’s a “popularity” contest. Lying about a sexual affair during an investigation that started out as an investigation of a land deal isn’t the same degree of perjury as lying about a quid pro quo to influence an election, not to compare. At least a majority of elected senators thought so.
If it’s not being “compared,” then why did you bring up Clinton’s impeachment in the Team Trump Treason thread?
I fully understand it's not a legal process. it seems to be a political/popularity issue, but it's not supposed to be.
Yes it is. Presidents can't be charged with crimes while in office so the founders gave this political process power to congress to hold the president accountable.
ok, we're just not understanding each other here. I KNOW A PRESIDENT CANNOT BE CHARGED WHILE IN OFFICE. I KNOW IT'S NOT A CRIMINAL PROCEEDING. When I stated it shouldn't be a political process, I suppose I should have said it shouldn't be a partisan process. but it is.
But....the reason Nixon resigned was because REPUBLICAN congressmen went to him and told him he would be impeached and convicted in the senate. There is literally no way a president can be convicted in the senate without bipartisan support--unless one party, some day, gains control of 2/3's of the senate which will never happen.
So I believe your original point about checks and balances never having been there is inherently flawed and just not true.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I've seen John Kennedy do a number of interviews and he always seems nice, reasonable, and pretty gregarious. But to your point about "souleater", Trump just corrupts everyone and brings out the worst in them. I would have never have guessed him to say something like this, but he does it at a Trump rally of course. It's really very sad.
You know, I got that tag from James Comey. He wrote an article a number of months ago and talked about how the soul-eater just eats the souls of those around him. He noticed it and I thought it was right...so that's the name he deserves. It's insane how people are afraid of him and allow themselves to be bullied by him. I really don't get it at all.
So glad for VA, mrussel1.
Added: I think it was this article but I can't access it now.
impeachment is partisan. at least the 2 in my lifetime has been.
i think what is going to happen is all of this is going to become public in hearings. republicans will distract and bring obama and the clintons into it because their MO is whataboutism. they have nothing else. everyone knows they would have impeached obama for much less, and the dems will point that out and make that case to the public. the dems will point out that the gop was once the law and order party and they are abdicating that, and that will hurt the gop. once the whataboutism fails and the polls show 55-60% of americans favor impeachment and removal from office, the sane gop senators are going to start having conversations about how their own voters will vote for unnamed democrats over incumbant senators, and then the gop senators will begin to pull away. i now believe that once trump loses 2 or 3 sane gop senators it will be over. he will resign before he is voted out of office. he will try to make a deal with a country with no extradition so he can try to avoid being arrested the moment he is no longer president.
stone will not flip on him because he has been promised a pardon. but trump will resign and either pence will pardon stone, or stone will have been betrayed by the trump administration.
Nixon wasn't impeached....he would have been had he not resigned
Impeachment shouldn't be partisan. If the tRump is impeached and the GOP Senators don't vote to convict him they are just as complicit.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
James Comey: How Trump Co-opts Leaders Like Bill Barr
Accomplished people lacking inner strength can’t resist the compromises necessary to survive this president.
By James Comey
Mr. Comey is the former F.B.I. director.
May 1, 2019
Credit...Sarah Silbiger/The New York Times
People
have been asking me hard questions. What happened to the leaders in the
Trump administration, especially the attorney general, Bill Barr, who I
have said was due the benefit of the doubt?
How
could Mr. Barr, a bright and accomplished lawyer, start channeling the
president in using words like “no collusion” and F.B.I. “spying”? And
downplaying acts of obstruction of justice as products of the
president’s being “frustrated and angry,” something he would never say
to justify the thousands of crimes prosecuted every day that are the
product of frustration and anger?
How
could he write and say things about the report by Robert Mueller, the
special counsel, that were apparently so misleading that they prompted written protest from the special counsel himself?
How
could Mr. Barr go before the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday
and downplay President Trump’s attempt to fire Mr. Mueller before he
completed his work?
And
how could Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, after the
release of Mr. Mueller’s report that detailed Mr. Trump’s determined
efforts to obstruct justice, give a speech quoting the president on the
importance of the rule of law? Or on resigning, thank a president who
relentlessly attacked both him and the Department of Justice he led for
“the courtesy and humor you often display in our personal
conversations”?
What happened to these people?
I
don’t know for sure. People are complicated, so the answer is most
likely complicated. But I have some idea from four months of working
close to Mr. Trump and many more months of watching him shape others.
Amoral
leaders have a way of revealing the character of those around them.
Sometimes what they reveal is inspiring. For example, James Mattis, the
former secretary of defense, resigned over principle, a concept so alien
to Mr. Trump that it took days for the president to realize what had
happened, before he could start lying about the man.
But
more often, proximity to an amoral leader reveals something depressing.
I think that’s at least part of what we’ve seen with Bill Barr and Rod
Rosenstein. Accomplished people lacking inner strength can’t resist the
compromises necessary to survive Mr. Trump and that adds up to something
they will never recover from. It takes character like Mr. Mattis’s to
avoid the damage, because Mr. Trump eats your soul in small bites.
It
starts with your sitting silent while he lies, both in public and
private, making you complicit by your silence. In meetings with him, his
assertions about what “everyone thinks” and what is “obviously true”
wash over you, unchallenged, as they did at our private dinner on Jan.
27, 2017, because he’s the president and he rarely stops talking. As a
result, Mr. Trump pulls all of those present into a silent circle of
assent.
Speaking
rapid-fire with no spot for others to jump into the conversation, Mr.
Trump makes everyone a co-conspirator to his preferred set of facts, or
delusions. I have felt it — this president building with his words a web
of alternative reality and busily wrapping it around all of us in the
room.
I must have agreed that he had
the largest inauguration crowd in history because I didn’t challenge
that. Everyone must agree that he has been treated very unfairly. The
web building never stops.
From the
private circle of assent, it moves to public displays of personal fealty
at places like cabinet meetings. While the entire world is watching,
you do what everyone else around the table does — you talk about how
amazing the leader is and what an honor it is to be associated with him.
Sure, you notice that Mr. Mattis
never actually praises the president, always speaking instead of the
honor of representing the men and women of our military. But he’s a
special case, right? Former Marine general and all. No way the rest of
us could get away with that. So you praise, while the world watches, and
the web gets tighter.
Next comes Mr.
Trump attacking institutions and values you hold dear — things you have
always said must be protected and which you criticized past leaders for
not supporting strongly enough. Yet you are silent. Because, after all,
what are you supposed to say? He’s the president of the United States.
You
feel this happening. It bothers you, at least to some extent. But his
outrageous conduct convinces you that you simply must stay, to preserve
and protect the people and institutions and values you hold dear. Along
with Republican members of Congress, you tell yourself you are too
important for this nation to lose, especially now.
You
can’t say this out loud — maybe not even to your family — but in a time
of emergency, with the nation led by a deeply unethical person, this
will be your contribution, your personal sacrifice for America. You are
smarter than Donald Trump, and you are playing a long game for your
country, so you can pull it off where lesser leaders have failed and
gotten fired by tweet.
Of
course, to stay, you must be seen as on his team, so you make further
compromises. You use his language, praise his leadership, tout his
commitment to values.
And then you are lost. He has eaten your soul.
James Comey is the former F.B.I. director and author of “A Higher Loyalty: Truth, Lies, and Leadership.”
The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: letters@nytimes.com.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
this will amount to yet another nothing. unfortunately.
maybe. but the phone records corroborate at least a portion of her story. lends credence to the rest.
what I fail to understand is , is not just her but other women also continuing contact or pursuit of business or job opportunities with the same men who assualt them.
there has been innumerable reasons he should have been taken down by now. but the checks and balances just aren't there. to be honest, they have never been there. i was reading up on clinton's impeachment. he got off when he absolutely shouldn't have. almost all senators voted along party lines, not with non-partisan facts. he should have been removed easily. it's all a sham.
unfortunately, in today's climate, most women have no choice, they normalize it to themselves that this is just how it is, they feel as if they did something to deserve it, endless reasons.
Wait....you think Clinton deserved to be removed from office?
Impeachment is about politics. Clinton was a popular president so he wasn't convicted in the senate. Nixon's popularity plunged after the tapes were released and he resigned to avoid embarrasment. Trump is historically unpopular, gotta see where his numbers are by the time this goes to the senate.
Clinton also sat for a video taped deposition, of which his perjury charge emanated, for lying about consensual sex during an investigation that began with a failed land deal in Arkansas. Team Trump Treason potentially committed ten acts of obstruction of justice in providing written answers to questions provided by Team Mueller. Imagine Team Trump Treason’s perjury charges if he were to be deposed on camera. The current Ukraine impeachment centers around election interference, which is what the Team Mueller investigation centered around. Can’t even compare the two investigations, from the reason that initiated them, cooperation of witnesses and justice department involvement, to how they were conducted and the ultimate result (we’re still waiting on that piece but it ain’t gonna be the same).
not everything is "being compared" to. trump is not the benchmark for every other incident in history. clinton lied under oath. full stop. just because trump is a corrupt and potentially treasonous POS doesn't mean every other person less corrupt than him gets a pass. that's not how this works.
Except one was a real witch hunt and one is not. I don’t remember “sexual assault” being one of the articles of impeachment against Clinton. Regardless, impeachment is not a legal process, and as Juggler stated, it’s a political process, which ultimately means it’s a “popularity” contest. Lying about a sexual affair during an investigation that started out as an investigation of a land deal isn’t the same degree of perjury as lying about a quid pro quo to influence an election, not to compare. At least a majority of elected senators thought so.
If it’s not being “compared,” then why did you bring up Clinton’s impeachment in the Team Trump Treason thread?
I fully understand it's not a legal process. it seems to be a political/popularity issue, but it's not supposed to be.
Yes it is. Presidents can't be charged with crimes while in office so the founders gave this political process power to congress to hold the president accountable.
ok, we're just not understanding each other here. I KNOW A PRESIDENT CANNOT BE CHARGED WHILE IN OFFICE. I KNOW IT'S NOT A CRIMINAL PROCEEDING. When I stated it shouldn't be a political process, I suppose I should have said it shouldn't be a partisan process. but it is.
But....the reason Nixon resigned was because REPUBLICAN congressmen went to him and told him he would be impeached and convicted in the senate. There is literally no way a president can be convicted in the senate without bipartisan support--unless one party, some day, gains control of 2/3's of the senate which will never happen.
So I believe your original point about checks and balances never having been there is inherently flawed and just not true.
Correct but I don't think there were the votes in the Senate to convict until the hearings started. I think we will be in the same boat with Trump. No matter what those fuckers say right now, once the hearings start it will be damaging and hell and much harder for the GOP to side step it.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I do give Barr a small amount of credit for not doing the "Trump did nothing wrong" speech that was requested
Barr will try to go nuclear on the impeachment process, so him refusing to not follow the Baffoon request is only a distraction for what he really is up too ..
I do give Barr a small amount of credit for not doing the "Trump did nothing wrong" speech that was requested
Barr will try to go nuclear on the impeachment process, so him refusing to not follow the Baffoon request is only a distraction for what he really is up too ..
I do give Barr a small amount of credit for not doing the "Trump did nothing wrong" speech that was requested
Barr will try to go nuclear on the impeachment process, so him refusing to not follow the Baffoon request is only a distraction for what he really is up too ..
BINGO
This administration specializes in corruption and everyone that he has tapped for jobs is complicit...
James Comey: How Trump Co-opts Leaders Like Bill Barr
Accomplished people lacking inner strength can’t resist the compromises necessary to survive this president.
By James Comey
Mr. Comey is the former F.B.I. director.
May 1, 2019
Credit...Sarah Silbiger/The New York Times
People
have been asking me hard questions. What happened to the leaders in the
Trump administration, especially the attorney general, Bill Barr, who I
have said was due the benefit of the doubt?
How
could Mr. Barr, a bright and accomplished lawyer, start channeling the
president in using words like “no collusion” and F.B.I. “spying”? And
downplaying acts of obstruction of justice as products of the
president’s being “frustrated and angry,” something he would never say
to justify the thousands of crimes prosecuted every day that are the
product of frustration and anger?
How
could he write and say things about the report by Robert Mueller, the
special counsel, that were apparently so misleading that they prompted written protest from the special counsel himself?
How
could Mr. Barr go before the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday
and downplay President Trump’s attempt to fire Mr. Mueller before he
completed his work?
And
how could Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, after the
release of Mr. Mueller’s report that detailed Mr. Trump’s determined
efforts to obstruct justice, give a speech quoting the president on the
importance of the rule of law? Or on resigning, thank a president who
relentlessly attacked both him and the Department of Justice he led for
“the courtesy and humor you often display in our personal
conversations”?
What happened to these people?
I
don’t know for sure. People are complicated, so the answer is most
likely complicated. But I have some idea from four months of working
close to Mr. Trump and many more months of watching him shape others.
Amoral
leaders have a way of revealing the character of those around them.
Sometimes what they reveal is inspiring. For example, James Mattis, the
former secretary of defense, resigned over principle, a concept so alien
to Mr. Trump that it took days for the president to realize what had
happened, before he could start lying about the man.
But
more often, proximity to an amoral leader reveals something depressing.
I think that’s at least part of what we’ve seen with Bill Barr and Rod
Rosenstein. Accomplished people lacking inner strength can’t resist the
compromises necessary to survive Mr. Trump and that adds up to something
they will never recover from. It takes character like Mr. Mattis’s to
avoid the damage, because Mr. Trump eats your soul in small bites.
It
starts with your sitting silent while he lies, both in public and
private, making you complicit by your silence. In meetings with him, his
assertions about what “everyone thinks” and what is “obviously true”
wash over you, unchallenged, as they did at our private dinner on Jan.
27, 2017, because he’s the president and he rarely stops talking. As a
result, Mr. Trump pulls all of those present into a silent circle of
assent.
Speaking
rapid-fire with no spot for others to jump into the conversation, Mr.
Trump makes everyone a co-conspirator to his preferred set of facts, or
delusions. I have felt it — this president building with his words a web
of alternative reality and busily wrapping it around all of us in the
room.
I must have agreed that he had
the largest inauguration crowd in history because I didn’t challenge
that. Everyone must agree that he has been treated very unfairly. The
web building never stops.
From the
private circle of assent, it moves to public displays of personal fealty
at places like cabinet meetings. While the entire world is watching,
you do what everyone else around the table does — you talk about how
amazing the leader is and what an honor it is to be associated with him.
Sure, you notice that Mr. Mattis
never actually praises the president, always speaking instead of the
honor of representing the men and women of our military. But he’s a
special case, right? Former Marine general and all. No way the rest of
us could get away with that. So you praise, while the world watches, and
the web gets tighter.
Next comes Mr.
Trump attacking institutions and values you hold dear — things you have
always said must be protected and which you criticized past leaders for
not supporting strongly enough. Yet you are silent. Because, after all,
what are you supposed to say? He’s the president of the United States.
You
feel this happening. It bothers you, at least to some extent. But his
outrageous conduct convinces you that you simply must stay, to preserve
and protect the people and institutions and values you hold dear. Along
with Republican members of Congress, you tell yourself you are too
important for this nation to lose, especially now.
You
can’t say this out loud — maybe not even to your family — but in a time
of emergency, with the nation led by a deeply unethical person, this
will be your contribution, your personal sacrifice for America. You are
smarter than Donald Trump, and you are playing a long game for your
country, so you can pull it off where lesser leaders have failed and
gotten fired by tweet.
Of
course, to stay, you must be seen as on his team, so you make further
compromises. You use his language, praise his leadership, tout his
commitment to values.
And then you are lost. He has eaten your soul.
James Comey is the former F.B.I. director and author of “A Higher Loyalty: Truth, Lies, and Leadership.”
The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: letters@nytimes.com.
Comments
If Senate R's remove Trumpito, ("We had no choice...") they'd still have an R in the executive, someone WAY closer to "traditional" (ie awful) R policy, and someone who wouldn't embarrass the snot out of them on twitter every day, pulling troops out of places they should stay and slamming NATO allies while figuratively BLOWING dictators. Mike Pence would NEVER.
Oh, turns out Pence is COMPLICIT and INVOLVED. Up above his chest in it.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
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i think what is going to happen is all of this is going to become public in hearings. republicans will distract and bring obama and the clintons into it because their MO is whataboutism. they have nothing else. everyone knows they would have impeached obama for much less, and the dems will point that out and make that case to the public. the dems will point out that the gop was once the law and order party and they are abdicating that, and that will hurt the gop. once the whataboutism fails and the polls show 55-60% of americans favor impeachment and removal from office, the sane gop senators are going to start having conversations about how their own voters will vote for unnamed democrats over incumbant senators, and then the gop senators will begin to pull away. i now believe that once trump loses 2 or 3 sane gop senators it will be over. he will resign before he is voted out of office. he will try to make a deal with a country with no extradition so he can try to avoid being arrested the moment he is no longer president.
stone will not flip on him because he has been promised a pardon. but trump will resign and either pence will pardon stone, or stone will have been betrayed by the trump administration.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
no, I don't think the impeachment process is easy. it's long and drawn out as it should be. it shouldn't be a cake walk to impeach or remove a sitting president. when I said "easily", I didn't mean it literally as in on a whim. I meant easily as in "lied under oath, so it's a slam dunk to me" easily. I don't think everything is black and white. But I don't constantly give dems a pass just because the other side is worse.
And trump won't be removed because the elected representatives will refuse to fire trump as well. the majority of clinton's "bosses" were dems, and the majority of trump's "bosses" are republicans. obviously not a coincidence. that's what I meant about the process being a sham, and the only reason I mentioned clinton's impeachment. it was designed with the thought that senators would vote what's good for the country, not for their party. that doesn't happen. hasn't in a long time.
you don't control me? then explain to me why I keep waking up in a cold sweat shouting:
Follow the money from Russia with love and a PTape all the way to impeachment every night?
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
* had to delete posts to post
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
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Trump More Closely to 2016 Effort to Obtain Stolen Emails
Newly revealed calls between President Trump and Roger Stone dovetailed with key developments in the theft of Democratic emails, prosecutors said.
WASHINGTON — President Trump was more personally involved in his campaign’s effort to obtain Democratic emails stolen by Russian operatives in 2016 than was previously known, phone records introduced in federal court on Wednesday suggested.
Federal prosecutors disclosed the calls at the start of the criminal trial of Roger J. Stone Jr., Mr. Trump’s longtime friend, who faces charges of lying to federal investigators about his efforts to contact WikiLeaks during the 2016 campaign. Russian intelligence officers had funneled tens of thousands of emails they stole from Democratic computers to WikiLeaks, which released them at critical points during the presidential race.
The records suggest that Mr. Trump spoke to Mr. Stone repeatedly during the summer of 2016, at a time when Mr. Stone was aggressively seeking to obtain the stolen emails from Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks. The prosecutors noted that they did not know what Mr. Stone and Mr. Trump had discussed. But they stressed that the timing of their calls dovetailed with other key developments related to the theft and release of the Democratic emails.
The phone records are the first concrete suggestion that Mr. Trump may have had a direct role in his campaign’s effort to benefit from Russia’s hidden hand in the election. At the very least, the calls and other evidence underscored the eagerness of senior campaign officials and other Trump associates to reap the rewards of what the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, later called a sophisticated and alarming covert Russian influence operation.
continues.....
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
So I believe your original point about checks and balances never having been there is inherently flawed and just not true.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
The POTUS is always under oath.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Impeachment shouldn't be partisan. If the tRump is impeached and the GOP Senators don't vote to convict him they are just as complicit.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
James Comey: How Trump Co-opts Leaders Like Bill Barr
Accomplished people lacking inner strength can’t resist the compromises necessary to survive this president.
By James Comey
Mr. Comey is the former F.B.I. director.
People have been asking me hard questions. What happened to the leaders in the Trump administration, especially the attorney general, Bill Barr, who I have said was due the benefit of the doubt?
How could Mr. Barr, a bright and accomplished lawyer, start channeling the president in using words like “no collusion” and F.B.I. “spying”? And downplaying acts of obstruction of justice as products of the president’s being “frustrated and angry,” something he would never say to justify the thousands of crimes prosecuted every day that are the product of frustration and anger?
How could he write and say things about the report by Robert Mueller, the special counsel, that were apparently so misleading that they prompted written protest from the special counsel himself?
How could Mr. Barr go before the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday and downplay President Trump’s attempt to fire Mr. Mueller before he completed his work?
And how could Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, after the release of Mr. Mueller’s report that detailed Mr. Trump’s determined efforts to obstruct justice, give a speech quoting the president on the importance of the rule of law? Or on resigning, thank a president who relentlessly attacked both him and the Department of Justice he led for “the courtesy and humor you often display in our personal conversations”?
What happened to these people?
I don’t know for sure. People are complicated, so the answer is most likely complicated. But I have some idea from four months of working close to Mr. Trump and many more months of watching him shape others.
Amoral leaders have a way of revealing the character of those around them. Sometimes what they reveal is inspiring. For example, James Mattis, the former secretary of defense, resigned over principle, a concept so alien to Mr. Trump that it took days for the president to realize what had happened, before he could start lying about the man.
But more often, proximity to an amoral leader reveals something depressing. I think that’s at least part of what we’ve seen with Bill Barr and Rod Rosenstein. Accomplished people lacking inner strength can’t resist the compromises necessary to survive Mr. Trump and that adds up to something they will never recover from. It takes character like Mr. Mattis’s to avoid the damage, because Mr. Trump eats your soul in small bites.
It starts with your sitting silent while he lies, both in public and private, making you complicit by your silence. In meetings with him, his assertions about what “everyone thinks” and what is “obviously true” wash over you, unchallenged, as they did at our private dinner on Jan. 27, 2017, because he’s the president and he rarely stops talking. As a result, Mr. Trump pulls all of those present into a silent circle of assent.
Speaking rapid-fire with no spot for others to jump into the conversation, Mr. Trump makes everyone a co-conspirator to his preferred set of facts, or delusions. I have felt it — this president building with his words a web of alternative reality and busily wrapping it around all of us in the room.
I must have agreed that he had the largest inauguration crowd in history because I didn’t challenge that. Everyone must agree that he has been treated very unfairly. The web building never stops.
From the private circle of assent, it moves to public displays of personal fealty at places like cabinet meetings. While the entire world is watching, you do what everyone else around the table does — you talk about how amazing the leader is and what an honor it is to be associated with him.
Sure, you notice that Mr. Mattis never actually praises the president, always speaking instead of the honor of representing the men and women of our military. But he’s a special case, right? Former Marine general and all. No way the rest of us could get away with that. So you praise, while the world watches, and the web gets tighter.
Next comes Mr. Trump attacking institutions and values you hold dear — things you have always said must be protected and which you criticized past leaders for not supporting strongly enough. Yet you are silent. Because, after all, what are you supposed to say? He’s the president of the United States.
You feel this happening. It bothers you, at least to some extent. But his outrageous conduct convinces you that you simply must stay, to preserve and protect the people and institutions and values you hold dear. Along with Republican members of Congress, you tell yourself you are too important for this nation to lose, especially now.
You can’t say this out loud — maybe not even to your family — but in a time of emergency, with the nation led by a deeply unethical person, this will be your contribution, your personal sacrifice for America. You are smarter than Donald Trump, and you are playing a long game for your country, so you can pull it off where lesser leaders have failed and gotten fired by tweet.
Of course, to stay, you must be seen as on his team, so you make further compromises. You use his language, praise his leadership, tout his commitment to values.
And then you are lost. He has eaten your soul.
James Comey is the former F.B.I. director and author of “A Higher Loyalty: Truth, Lies, and Leadership.”
The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: letters@nytimes.com.
Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook, Twitter (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©