It's a complicated argument, without rehashing the whole thing. There are certainly parallels to Hitler 1933-1936/7 with how rhetoric is used, marginalizing the 'other', attacking the press, treating political opponents as enemies, etc. It goes too far if looking at the whole Third Reich of '33 to '45 which was responsible for the death of 100 million people, 6 million Jews, countless Roma, etc.
It doesn't go to far from '33 to '39 actually. It's still apt at that point. That is exactly when the German government really started attacking and then controlling the press, and when they used all that fake propaganda to get citizens on board with them, and started treating foreigners and minorities as the enemy. There are plenty of parallels going on from '33 to the start of WWII.
Well Hitler instigated Kristallnacht in 38. So that's the lens I have on it when saying we're not there yet. We haven't had a pogrom, and God willing never will. We also haven't annexed any countries ala Sudentland, Rhineland, Austria. But we're really just splitting hairs. I think we both agree that post 39 is a different story, whereas peace time Germany has parallels.
There is plenty that Hitler did throughout his reign that doesn't match what's happening in America now. Like I've had to state over and over and over and OVER before, just because some parallels are drawn, it doesn't mean that EVERYTHING Hitler did is being compared to Trump or vice versa (But yes, generally the parallels end at the start of the war... for now. These migrant detention centres and the kids in cages, and the travel bans as well, have me very very concerned in that context though, and now Trump's starting to pound the war drum in Iran's face, although that is purely a political tactic for him... he'll be perfectly happy going to war with Iran for no reason if he thinks it will help him win 2020... and who knows where a war with Iran could lead America and world. Probably nowhere good).
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Are we really saying you should not compare the Trump Dyansty to the rise of Nazi Germany because the Trump Dynasty has not been responsible for the death to 100 million people? Guess what; at this stage, Hitler had not either. Nobody claims that our dictatorship would look exactly like Hitler's. What they claim is that a) Trump wants to be a dictator, b) the GOP looks like it's ready to get on board, c) the Dems look too weak to stop it, and d) a third of the American people seem to be all-in. It CAN happen here. And if he wins in 2020, it's probably going to. When we don't have checks and balances, when "Lock her/him up" for all Trump opponents becomes reality, when unfriendly news organizations are shut down, and the next President Trump is appointed, rather than elected,* will we still talk about how he hasn't set up concentration camps? This isn't about Trump BEING Hitler. It's about the Trump Dyanasty becoming an authoritarian regime in a similar manner as Hitler's. The comparison are apt and saying it "goes too far" is just calling Trump Bush. And he's not Bush. He's a wannabe dictator. And he has way more support than I ever imagined he'd have.
*And yes, I think these things are all possible in the second term.
1995 Milwaukee 1998 Alpine, Alpine 2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston 2004 Boston, Boston 2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty) 2011 Alpine, Alpine 2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
0
Options
Kat
There's a lot to be said for nowhere. Posts: 4,772
Are we really saying you should not compare the Trump Dyansty to the rise of Nazi Germany because the Trump Dynasty has not been responsible for the death to 100 million people? Guess what; at this stage, Hitler had not either. Nobody claims that our dictatorship would look exactly like Hitler's. What they claim is that a) Trump wants to be a dictator, b) the GOP looks like it's ready to get on board, c) the Dems look too weak to stop it, and d) a third of the American people seem to be all-in. It CAN happen here. And if he wins in 2020, it's probably going to. When we don't have checks and balances, when "Lock her/him up" for all Trump opponents becomes reality, when unfriendly news organizations are shut down, and the next President Trump is appointed, rather than elected,* will we still talk about how he hasn't set up concentration camps? This isn't about Trump BEING Hitler. It's about the Trump Dyanasty becoming an authoritarian regime in a similar manner as Hitler's. The comparison are apt and saying it "goes too far" is just calling Trump Bush. And he's not Bush. He's a wannabe dictator. And he has way more support than I ever imagined he'd have.
*And yes, I think these things are all possible in the second term.
This is what I was thinking about too. Hitler wasn't Evil Monster Hitler at first...that happened later. As each stage became "normalized," he got worse and worse and so did his followers. :(
Oh, so NOW people are agreeing with this. Where were you for the past year?!
Doing my best to stay out of intra-board sqabbles. That said, my concern about authoritarianism has been growing for months.
1995 Milwaukee 1998 Alpine, Alpine 2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston 2004 Boston, Boston 2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty) 2011 Alpine, Alpine 2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
Are we really saying you should not compare the Trump Dyansty to the rise of Nazi Germany because the Trump Dynasty has not been responsible for the death to 100 million people? Guess what; at this stage, Hitler had not either. Nobody claims that our dictatorship would look exactly like Hitler's. What they claim is that a) Trump wants to be a dictator, b) the GOP looks like it's ready to get on board, c) the Dems look too weak to stop it, and d) a third of the American people seem to be all-in. It CAN happen here. And if he wins in 2020, it's probably going to. When we don't have checks and balances, when "Lock her/him up" for all Trump opponents becomes reality, when unfriendly news organizations are shut down, and the next President Trump is appointed, rather than elected,* will we still talk about how he hasn't set up concentration camps? This isn't about Trump BEING Hitler. It's about the Trump Dyanasty becoming an authoritarian regime in a similar manner as Hitler's. The comparison are apt and saying it "goes too far" is just calling Trump Bush. And he's not Bush. He's a wannabe dictator. And he has way more support than I ever imagined he'd have.
*And yes, I think these things are all possible in the second term.
When you start comparing someone to Hitler, everyone is going to naturally think of the war and the genocide. They aren't going to think about the Reichstag, the press, the brown shirts and all the thins leading up to 39. So it becomes a very divisive statement unless you're having a long, nuanced conversation. You'll notice that I was specific in speaking of the parallels during the pre-war period, but not after the pograms started. There are other authoritarian figures you could point to that get the job done as well, without invoking the most evil man in history. My 2 hands cents
But I don't understand not wanting to think about all the terrible shit that was done during the war either TBH. Because that's a view of just how bad things could get if people are dismissive of Trump's tactics now. WWII and the holocaust should ALWAYS be viewed as warnings for us in the present, since it would be extremely naive to think it or something similar in various ways, to a greater or lesser extent, can't happen again. When you see the warning signs in Trump that Hitler displayed as well in the years leading up to WWII, why would you assume that it might not get just as bad in America as it did in Nazi Germany (or even a fraction as bad, which is beyond bad enough!)? This is why I have always found this knee-jerk aversion to Hitler comparisons disturbing. It's like setting America up for terrible things by means of denial.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
But I don't understand not wanting to think about all the terrible shit that was done during the war either TBH. Because that's a view of just how bad things could get if people are dismissive of Trump's tactics now. WWII and the holocaust should ALWAYS be viewed as warnings for us in the present, since it would be extremely naive to think it or something similar in various ways, to a greater or lesser extent, can't happen again. When you see the warning signs in Trump that Hitler displayed as well in the years leading up to WWII, why would you assume that it might not get just as bad in America as it did in Nazi Germany (or even a fraction as bad, which is beyond bad enough!)? This is why I have always found this knee-jerk aversion to Hitler comparisons disturbing. It's like setting America up for terrible things my means of denial.
I think the 33% are susceptible to his bullshit but the majority of the country is not. Personally, I'm concerned about the long term health of our democracy and the checks and balances that require commitment to the Constitution to work. In other words, the most disturbing thing he has done so far is fighting the congressional oversight. So often his rhetoric does not match his actions. In fact, on the world stage, Trump comes off as toothless even with his saber rattling. The most meaningful thing he has done is refuse to honor the JCPOA. Everything else has been just noise. Domestically, most of the immigration stuff is fairly appalling other than that, he continues to fold when the going gets tough. It's always been his MO personally and professionally, to make a bunch of noise, but be a bore.
But I don't understand not wanting to think about all the terrible shit that was done during the war either TBH. Because that's a view of just how bad things could get if people are dismissive of Trump's tactics now. WWII and the holocaust should ALWAYS be viewed as warnings for us in the present, since it would be extremely naive to think it or something similar in various ways, to a greater or lesser extent, can't happen again. When you see the warning signs in Trump that Hitler displayed as well in the years leading up to WWII, why would you assume that it might not get just as bad in America as it did in Nazi Germany (or even a fraction as bad, which is beyond bad enough!)? This is why I have always found this knee-jerk aversion to Hitler comparisons disturbing. It's like setting America up for terrible things my means of denial.
I think the 33% are susceptible to his bullshit but the majority of the country is not. Personally, I'm concerned about the long term health of our democracy and the checks and balances that require commitment to the Constitution to work. In other words, the most disturbing thing he has done so far is fighting the congressional oversight. So often his rhetoric does not match his actions. In fact, on the world stage, Trump comes off as toothless even with his saber rattling. The most meaningful thing he has done is refuse to honor the JCPOA. Everything else has been just noise. Domestically, most of the immigration stuff is fairly appalling other than that, he continues to fold when the going gets tough. It's always been his MO personally and professionally, to make a bunch of noise, but be a bore.
Boy, I think you're really underestimating how dangerous Trump is TBH, and the actual harm he is doing, if you think "everything else is just noise". What about the deregulation of environmental protections, his trade war with China, the very real threat to women's rights, the impact of the travel bans, and the very serious and damaging impact he's having on the public as far as the free press goes? And just the rhetoric alone will also have a long-lasting negative impact on America, both socially and politically. I know what you mean about the 33%. The problem is that some of the bullshit actually affects the rest of the population as well, slowly but surely. That is how Hitler got the majority of Germans to go along eventually, and to at least be apathetic, and not just the minority that straight up supported him and his crazier viewpoints. The psychological affects of this shit gets under the skin. Plus, some of what you're calling noise really isn't, as Jose just suggested as well. I think you shouldn't be so dismissive of his "noise". It carries meaning. And even if a lot of it does turn out to be bullshit or impossible, don't you think it's better to be overly cautious and take it more seriously, just in case? That is a lot better than looking back and thinking, "holy fuck, I didn't think he was serious!" or "Hey, I thought there were checks and balances for that!" Especially when you look at how Congress is behaving now. And how a lot of Americans are voting and behaving. Or not voting.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
But I don't understand not wanting to think about all the terrible shit that was done during the war either TBH. Because that's a view of just how bad things could get if people are dismissive of Trump's tactics now. WWII and the holocaust should ALWAYS be viewed as warnings for us in the present, since it would be extremely naive to think it or something similar in various ways, to a greater or lesser extent, can't happen again. When you see the warning signs in Trump that Hitler displayed as well in the years leading up to WWII, why would you assume that it might not get just as bad in America as it did in Nazi Germany (or even a fraction as bad, which is beyond bad enough!)? This is why I have always found this knee-jerk aversion to Hitler comparisons disturbing. It's like setting America up for terrible things my means of denial.
I think the 33% are susceptible to his bullshit but the majority of the country is not. Personally, I'm concerned about the long term health of our democracy and the checks and balances that require commitment to the Constitution to work. In other words, the most disturbing thing he has done so far is fighting the congressional oversight. So often his rhetoric does not match his actions. In fact, on the world stage, Trump comes off as toothless even with his saber rattling. The most meaningful thing he has done is refuse to honor the JCPOA. Everything else has been just noise. Domestically, most of the immigration stuff is fairly appalling other than that, he continues to fold when the going gets tough. It's always been his MO personally and professionally, to make a bunch of noise, but be a bore.
Boy, I think you're really underestimating how dangerous Trump is TBH, and the actual harm he is doing, if you think "everything else is just noise". What about the deregulation of environmental protections, his trade war with China, the very real threat to women's rights, the impact of the travel bans, and the very serious and damaging impact he's having on the public as far as the free press goes? And just the rhetoric alone will also have a long-lasting negative impact on America, both socially and politically. I know what you mean about the 33%. The problem is that some of the bullshit actually affects the rest of the population as well, slowly but surely. That is how Hitler got the majority of Germans to go along eventually, and to at least be apathetic, and not just the minority that straight up supported him and his crazier viewpoints. The psychological affects of this shit gets under the skin. Plus, some of what you're calling noise really isn't, as Jose just suggested as well. I think you shouldn't be so dismissive of his "noise". It carries meaning.
The policies, while misguided and generally diabolical, are legal. I'm against just about every one of them. But they don't threaten our democracy. Now do they harm individuals and environment? Yes, absolutely. But I am drawing a distinction between legal policies that I despise and someone moving towards a true dictatorship. And you're right, it carries meaning and I think he means what he says, but he has the gift of the cult of personality. Fortunately he's an old man and his children are even more of a bore than him, and without a personality. That's why the family isn't as concerning to me long term.
But I don't understand not wanting to think about all the terrible shit that was done during the war either TBH. Because that's a view of just how bad things could get if people are dismissive of Trump's tactics now. WWII and the holocaust should ALWAYS be viewed as warnings for us in the present, since it would be extremely naive to think it or something similar in various ways, to a greater or lesser extent, can't happen again. When you see the warning signs in Trump that Hitler displayed as well in the years leading up to WWII, why would you assume that it might not get just as bad in America as it did in Nazi Germany (or even a fraction as bad, which is beyond bad enough!)? This is why I have always found this knee-jerk aversion to Hitler comparisons disturbing. It's like setting America up for terrible things my means of denial.
I think the 33% are susceptible to his bullshit but the majority of the country is not. Personally, I'm concerned about the long term health of our democracy and the checks and balances that require commitment to the Constitution to work. In other words, the most disturbing thing he has done so far is fighting the congressional oversight. So often his rhetoric does not match his actions. In fact, on the world stage, Trump comes off as toothless even with his saber rattling. The most meaningful thing he has done is refuse to honor the JCPOA. Everything else has been just noise. Domestically, most of the immigration stuff is fairly appalling other than that, he continues to fold when the going gets tough. It's always been his MO personally and professionally, to make a bunch of noise, but be a bore.
Boy, I think you're really underestimating how dangerous Trump is TBH, and the actual harm he is doing, if you think "everything else is just noise". What about the deregulation of environmental protections, his trade war with China, the very real threat to women's rights, the impact of the travel bans, and the very serious and damaging impact he's having on the public as far as the free press goes? And just the rhetoric alone will also have a long-lasting negative impact on America, both socially and politically. I know what you mean about the 33%. The problem is that some of the bullshit actually affects the rest of the population as well, slowly but surely. That is how Hitler got the majority of Germans to go along eventually, and to at least be apathetic, and not just the minority that straight up supported him and his crazier viewpoints. The psychological affects of this shit gets under the skin. Plus, some of what you're calling noise really isn't, as Jose just suggested as well. I think you shouldn't be so dismissive of his "noise". It carries meaning.
The policies, while misguided and generally diabolical, are legal. I'm against just about every one of them. But they don't threaten our democracy. Now do they harm individuals and environment? Yes, absolutely. But I am drawing a distinction between legal policies that I despise and someone moving towards a true dictatorship. And you're right, it carries meaning and I think he means what he says, but he has the gift of the cult of personality. Fortunately he's an old man and his children are even more of a bore than him, and without a personality. That's why the family isn't as concerning to me long term.
The abortion bills aren't legal. They are unconstitutional. So are a lot of the other things he's doing. Not to mention all of his illegal activity, lol, particularly when it comes to his profiting from the presidency, and the obstruction of justice, and his urging to ignore subpoenas... etc. How many investigations are still going on against him right now? Several, no? Like a dozen at least?
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
But I don't understand not wanting to think about all the terrible shit that was done during the war either TBH. Because that's a view of just how bad things could get if people are dismissive of Trump's tactics now. WWII and the holocaust should ALWAYS be viewed as warnings for us in the present, since it would be extremely naive to think it or something similar in various ways, to a greater or lesser extent, can't happen again. When you see the warning signs in Trump that Hitler displayed as well in the years leading up to WWII, why would you assume that it might not get just as bad in America as it did in Nazi Germany (or even a fraction as bad, which is beyond bad enough!)? This is why I have always found this knee-jerk aversion to Hitler comparisons disturbing. It's like setting America up for terrible things my means of denial.
I think the 33% are susceptible to his bullshit but the majority of the country is not. Personally, I'm concerned about the long term health of our democracy and the checks and balances that require commitment to the Constitution to work. In other words, the most disturbing thing he has done so far is fighting the congressional oversight. So often his rhetoric does not match his actions. In fact, on the world stage, Trump comes off as toothless even with his saber rattling. The most meaningful thing he has done is refuse to honor the JCPOA. Everything else has been just noise. Domestically, most of the immigration stuff is fairly appalling other than that, he continues to fold when the going gets tough. It's always been his MO personally and professionally, to make a bunch of noise, but be a bore.
Boy, I think you're really underestimating how dangerous Trump is TBH, and the actual harm he is doing, if you think "everything else is just noise". What about the deregulation of environmental protections, his trade war with China, the very real threat to women's rights, the impact of the travel bans, and the very serious and damaging impact he's having on the public as far as the free press goes? And just the rhetoric alone will also have a long-lasting negative impact on America, both socially and politically. I know what you mean about the 33%. The problem is that some of the bullshit actually affects the rest of the population as well, slowly but surely. That is how Hitler got the majority of Germans to go along eventually, and to at least be apathetic, and not just the minority that straight up supported him and his crazier viewpoints. The psychological affects of this shit gets under the skin. Plus, some of what you're calling noise really isn't, as Jose just suggested as well. I think you shouldn't be so dismissive of his "noise". It carries meaning.
The policies, while misguided and generally diabolical, are legal. I'm against just about every one of them. But they don't threaten our democracy. Now do they harm individuals and environment? Yes, absolutely. But I am drawing a distinction between legal policies that I despise and someone moving towards a true dictatorship. And you're right, it carries meaning and I think he means what he says, but he has the gift of the cult of personality. Fortunately he's an old man and his children are even more of a bore than him, and without a personality. That's why the family isn't as concerning to me long term.
trump and the republicans are pissing on the constitution right now. that's a bad precedent. I also agree with PJ Soul that the rhetoric and attitudes being planted during this administration with take decades to recover from.
But I don't understand not wanting to think about all the terrible shit that was done during the war either TBH. Because that's a view of just how bad things could get if people are dismissive of Trump's tactics now. WWII and the holocaust should ALWAYS be viewed as warnings for us in the present, since it would be extremely naive to think it or something similar in various ways, to a greater or lesser extent, can't happen again. When you see the warning signs in Trump that Hitler displayed as well in the years leading up to WWII, why would you assume that it might not get just as bad in America as it did in Nazi Germany (or even a fraction as bad, which is beyond bad enough!)? This is why I have always found this knee-jerk aversion to Hitler comparisons disturbing. It's like setting America up for terrible things my means of denial.
I think the 33% are susceptible to his bullshit but the majority of the country is not. Personally, I'm concerned about the long term health of our democracy and the checks and balances that require commitment to the Constitution to work. In other words, the most disturbing thing he has done so far is fighting the congressional oversight. So often his rhetoric does not match his actions. In fact, on the world stage, Trump comes off as toothless even with his saber rattling. The most meaningful thing he has done is refuse to honor the JCPOA. Everything else has been just noise. Domestically, most of the immigration stuff is fairly appalling other than that, he continues to fold when the going gets tough. It's always been his MO personally and professionally, to make a bunch of noise, but be a bore.
Boy, I think you're really underestimating how dangerous Trump is TBH, and the actual harm he is doing, if you think "everything else is just noise". What about the deregulation of environmental protections, his trade war with China, the very real threat to women's rights, the impact of the travel bans, and the very serious and damaging impact he's having on the public as far as the free press goes? And just the rhetoric alone will also have a long-lasting negative impact on America, both socially and politically. I know what you mean about the 33%. The problem is that some of the bullshit actually affects the rest of the population as well, slowly but surely. That is how Hitler got the majority of Germans to go along eventually, and to at least be apathetic, and not just the minority that straight up supported him and his crazier viewpoints. The psychological affects of this shit gets under the skin. Plus, some of what you're calling noise really isn't, as Jose just suggested as well. I think you shouldn't be so dismissive of his "noise". It carries meaning.
The policies, while misguided and generally diabolical, are legal. I'm against just about every one of them. But they don't threaten our democracy. Now do they harm individuals and environment? Yes, absolutely. But I am drawing a distinction between legal policies that I despise and someone moving towards a true dictatorship. And you're right, it carries meaning and I think he means what he says, but he has the gift of the cult of personality. Fortunately he's an old man and his children are even more of a bore than him, and without a personality. That's why the family isn't as concerning to me long term.
trump and the republicans are pissing on the constitution right now. that's a bad precedent. I also agree with PJ Soul that the rhetoric and attitudes being planted during this administration with take decades to recover from.
You're making my point. The fact that they are fighting oversight is the biggest risk he has posed. That's the long term, Constitutional risk. The checks and balances work so long as they are honored by the parties and people. Now if the courts, up to the SCOTUS, rule against the executive branch and they STILL won't allow oversight, then we are in a full blown crisis.
But I don't understand not wanting to think about all the terrible shit that was done during the war either TBH. Because that's a view of just how bad things could get if people are dismissive of Trump's tactics now. WWII and the holocaust should ALWAYS be viewed as warnings for us in the present, since it would be extremely naive to think it or something similar in various ways, to a greater or lesser extent, can't happen again. When you see the warning signs in Trump that Hitler displayed as well in the years leading up to WWII, why would you assume that it might not get just as bad in America as it did in Nazi Germany (or even a fraction as bad, which is beyond bad enough!)? This is why I have always found this knee-jerk aversion to Hitler comparisons disturbing. It's like setting America up for terrible things my means of denial.
I think the 33% are susceptible to his bullshit but the majority of the country is not. Personally, I'm concerned about the long term health of our democracy and the checks and balances that require commitment to the Constitution to work. In other words, the most disturbing thing he has done so far is fighting the congressional oversight. So often his rhetoric does not match his actions. In fact, on the world stage, Trump comes off as toothless even with his saber rattling. The most meaningful thing he has done is refuse to honor the JCPOA. Everything else has been just noise. Domestically, most of the immigration stuff is fairly appalling other than that, he continues to fold when the going gets tough. It's always been his MO personally and professionally, to make a bunch of noise, but be a bore.
Boy, I think you're really underestimating how dangerous Trump is TBH, and the actual harm he is doing, if you think "everything else is just noise". What about the deregulation of environmental protections, his trade war with China, the very real threat to women's rights, the impact of the travel bans, and the very serious and damaging impact he's having on the public as far as the free press goes? And just the rhetoric alone will also have a long-lasting negative impact on America, both socially and politically. I know what you mean about the 33%. The problem is that some of the bullshit actually affects the rest of the population as well, slowly but surely. That is how Hitler got the majority of Germans to go along eventually, and to at least be apathetic, and not just the minority that straight up supported him and his crazier viewpoints. The psychological affects of this shit gets under the skin. Plus, some of what you're calling noise really isn't, as Jose just suggested as well. I think you shouldn't be so dismissive of his "noise". It carries meaning.
The policies, while misguided and generally diabolical, are legal. I'm against just about every one of them. But they don't threaten our democracy. Now do they harm individuals and environment? Yes, absolutely. But I am drawing a distinction between legal policies that I despise and someone moving towards a true dictatorship. And you're right, it carries meaning and I think he means what he says, but he has the gift of the cult of personality. Fortunately he's an old man and his children are even more of a bore than him, and without a personality. That's why the family isn't as concerning to me long term.
The abortion bills aren't legal. They are unconstitutional. So are a lot of the other things he's doing. Not to mention all of his illegal activity, lol, particularly when it comes to his profiting from the presidency, and the obstruction of justice, and his urging to ignore subpoenas... etc. How many investigations are still going on against him right now? Several, no? Like a dozen at least?
The bills will likely be stayed until they go to the SCOTUS. And your secondary points are exactly what I have talked about, lack of adherence to congressional oversight. All of your criticisms fall into that bucket.
But I don't understand not wanting to think about all the terrible shit that was done during the war either TBH. Because that's a view of just how bad things could get if people are dismissive of Trump's tactics now. WWII and the holocaust should ALWAYS be viewed as warnings for us in the present, since it would be extremely naive to think it or something similar in various ways, to a greater or lesser extent, can't happen again. When you see the warning signs in Trump that Hitler displayed as well in the years leading up to WWII, why would you assume that it might not get just as bad in America as it did in Nazi Germany (or even a fraction as bad, which is beyond bad enough!)? This is why I have always found this knee-jerk aversion to Hitler comparisons disturbing. It's like setting America up for terrible things my means of denial.
I think the 33% are susceptible to his bullshit but the majority of the country is not. Personally, I'm concerned about the long term health of our democracy and the checks and balances that require commitment to the Constitution to work. In other words, the most disturbing thing he has done so far is fighting the congressional oversight. So often his rhetoric does not match his actions. In fact, on the world stage, Trump comes off as toothless even with his saber rattling. The most meaningful thing he has done is refuse to honor the JCPOA. Everything else has been just noise. Domestically, most of the immigration stuff is fairly appalling other than that, he continues to fold when the going gets tough. It's always been his MO personally and professionally, to make a bunch of noise, but be a bore.
Boy, I think you're really underestimating how dangerous Trump is TBH, and the actual harm he is doing, if you think "everything else is just noise". What about the deregulation of environmental protections, his trade war with China, the very real threat to women's rights, the impact of the travel bans, and the very serious and damaging impact he's having on the public as far as the free press goes? And just the rhetoric alone will also have a long-lasting negative impact on America, both socially and politically. I know what you mean about the 33%. The problem is that some of the bullshit actually affects the rest of the population as well, slowly but surely. That is how Hitler got the majority of Germans to go along eventually, and to at least be apathetic, and not just the minority that straight up supported him and his crazier viewpoints. The psychological affects of this shit gets under the skin. Plus, some of what you're calling noise really isn't, as Jose just suggested as well. I think you shouldn't be so dismissive of his "noise". It carries meaning.
The policies, while misguided and generally diabolical, are legal. I'm against just about every one of them. But they don't threaten our democracy. Now do they harm individuals and environment? Yes, absolutely. But I am drawing a distinction between legal policies that I despise and someone moving towards a true dictatorship. And you're right, it carries meaning and I think he means what he says, but he has the gift of the cult of personality. Fortunately he's an old man and his children are even more of a bore than him, and without a personality. That's why the family isn't as concerning to me long term.
The abortion bills aren't legal. They are unconstitutional. So are a lot of the other things he's doing. Not to mention all of his illegal activity, lol, particularly when it comes to his profiting from the presidency, and the obstruction of justice, and his urging to ignore subpoenas... etc. How many investigations are still going on against him right now? Several, no? Like a dozen at least?
The bills will likely be stayed until they go to the SCOTUS. And your secondary points are exactly what I have talked about, lack of adherence to congressional oversight. All of your criticisms fall into that bucket.
But you seem to be trusting that he's not going to get away with it... I think many disagree, and that is obviously why people are so worried, and why I think you should be more worried. You still seem to have total faith in those checks and balances that everyone was talking about in 2016... But I see a lot of good reasons not to have very much faith in them because of how Trump operates. That is the whole point I think. That Constitution of yours isn't actually infallible. Also, there are still kids in cages and still thousands of kids who were kidnapped by the government and still missing. Obviously checks and balances are not working.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
But I don't understand not wanting to think about all the terrible shit that was done during the war either TBH. Because that's a view of just how bad things could get if people are dismissive of Trump's tactics now. WWII and the holocaust should ALWAYS be viewed as warnings for us in the present, since it would be extremely naive to think it or something similar in various ways, to a greater or lesser extent, can't happen again. When you see the warning signs in Trump that Hitler displayed as well in the years leading up to WWII, why would you assume that it might not get just as bad in America as it did in Nazi Germany (or even a fraction as bad, which is beyond bad enough!)? This is why I have always found this knee-jerk aversion to Hitler comparisons disturbing. It's like setting America up for terrible things my means of denial.
I think the 33% are susceptible to his bullshit but the majority of the country is not. Personally, I'm concerned about the long term health of our democracy and the checks and balances that require commitment to the Constitution to work. In other words, the most disturbing thing he has done so far is fighting the congressional oversight. So often his rhetoric does not match his actions. In fact, on the world stage, Trump comes off as toothless even with his saber rattling. The most meaningful thing he has done is refuse to honor the JCPOA. Everything else has been just noise. Domestically, most of the immigration stuff is fairly appalling other than that, he continues to fold when the going gets tough. It's always been his MO personally and professionally, to make a bunch of noise, but be a bore.
Boy, I think you're really underestimating how dangerous Trump is TBH, and the actual harm he is doing, if you think "everything else is just noise". What about the deregulation of environmental protections, his trade war with China, the very real threat to women's rights, the impact of the travel bans, and the very serious and damaging impact he's having on the public as far as the free press goes? And just the rhetoric alone will also have a long-lasting negative impact on America, both socially and politically. I know what you mean about the 33%. The problem is that some of the bullshit actually affects the rest of the population as well, slowly but surely. That is how Hitler got the majority of Germans to go along eventually, and to at least be apathetic, and not just the minority that straight up supported him and his crazier viewpoints. The psychological affects of this shit gets under the skin. Plus, some of what you're calling noise really isn't, as Jose just suggested as well. I think you shouldn't be so dismissive of his "noise". It carries meaning.
The policies, while misguided and generally diabolical, are legal. I'm against just about every one of them. But they don't threaten our democracy. Now do they harm individuals and environment? Yes, absolutely. But I am drawing a distinction between legal policies that I despise and someone moving towards a true dictatorship. And you're right, it carries meaning and I think he means what he says, but he has the gift of the cult of personality. Fortunately he's an old man and his children are even more of a bore than him, and without a personality. That's why the family isn't as concerning to me long term.
The abortion bills aren't legal. They are unconstitutional. So are a lot of the other things he's doing. Not to mention all of his illegal activity, lol, particularly when it comes to his profiting from the presidency, and the obstruction of justice, and his urging to ignore subpoenas... etc. How many investigations are still going on against him right now? Several, no? Like a dozen at least?
The bills will likely be stayed until they go to the SCOTUS. And your secondary points are exactly what I have talked about, lack of adherence to congressional oversight. All of your criticisms fall into that bucket.
But you seem to be trusting that he's not going to get away with it... I think many disagree, and that is obviously why people are so worried, and why I think you should be more worried. You still seem to have total faith in those checks and balances that everyone was talking about in 2016... But I see a lot of good reasons not to have very much faith in them because of how Trump operates. That is the whole point I think. That Constitution of yours isn't actually infallible. Also, there are still kids in cages and still thousands of kids who were kidnapped by the government and still missing. Obviously checks and balances are not working.
Allie - I absolutely am worried about hte checks and balances because they fundamentally rely on the belief that the Constitution is more important than any one individual or party. I am worried that he is going to get away with it. I'm saying that much of his other noise on the world stage is just noise, but refusing the oversight is a huge problem. It is THE problem in my view. Much of his crazy ass EO's, including the JCPOA, the tariffs, the wall, all that bullshit can be deconstructed and put back by President Any Other Functioning Adult. But if breaks the faith in the institutions and respect for the Constitution, that's the long term damage. It's up to the courts now. And if he refuses after the courts, then it's truly impeachable, and unassailably so.
Okay, good! (well not good, but...).... It also does work if someone can fill the supreme court with partisan creeps obviously, nor when the majority of congress is corrupt. Sigh.
I still also wouldn't be surprised if he starts a war to try and stay in office though.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Okay, good! (well not good, but...).... It also does work if someone can fill the supreme court with partisan creeps obviously, nor when the majority of congress is corrupt. Sigh.
I still also wouldn't be surprised if he starts a war to try and stay in office though.
He's definitely saber rattling on Iran. But he won't do anything. He's full of shit 24/7
Okay, good! (well not good, but...).... It also does work if someone can fill the supreme court with partisan creeps obviously, nor when the majority of congress is corrupt. Sigh.
I still also wouldn't be surprised if he starts a war to try and stay in office though.
He's definitely saber rattling on Iran. But he won't do anything. He's full of shit 24/7
He actually doesn't have to do much more. It's Iran, and the middle east. Saber rattling can be the difference between war and peace, and will at the very least create terrorist attacks. But why do you think war with Iran is impossible, when the motivation is Trump staying in office? That isn't unrealistic at all IMO, especially not when he's replacing military leaders in his administration with fucking corporate CEOs.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Okay, good! (well not good, but...).... It also does work if someone can fill the supreme court with partisan creeps obviously, nor when the majority of congress is corrupt. Sigh.
I still also wouldn't be surprised if he starts a war to try and stay in office though.
He's definitely saber rattling on Iran. But he won't do anything. He's full of shit 24/7
He actually doesn't have to do much more. It's Iran, and the middle east. Saber rattling can be the difference between war and peace, and will at the very least create terrorist attacks. But why do you think war with Iran is impossible, when the motivation is Trump staying in office? That isn't unrealistic at all IMO, especially not when he's replacing military leaders in his administration with fucking corporate CEOs.
I think it's a hard sell to go to war with Iran without some specific action by the Iranian gov't, using soldiers to attack us. I don't think the Iranians will provoke that. He campaigned on pulling out of the middle east. It just doesn't make sense, even for him. I think he'd like some escalated situation, but a full out war and invasion, I don't know. It seems too far out even for him.
0
Options
The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,279
But I don't understand not wanting to think about all the terrible shit that was done during the war either TBH. Because that's a view of just how bad things could get if people are dismissive of Trump's tactics now. WWII and the holocaust should ALWAYS be viewed as warnings for us in the present, since it would be extremely naive to think it or something similar in various ways, to a greater or lesser extent, can't happen again. When you see the warning signs in Trump that Hitler displayed as well in the years leading up to WWII, why would you assume that it might not get just as bad in America as it did in Nazi Germany (or even a fraction as bad, which is beyond bad enough!)? This is why I have always found this knee-jerk aversion to Hitler comparisons disturbing. It's like setting America up for terrible things my means of denial.
I think the 33% are susceptible to his bullshit but the majority of the country is not. Personally, I'm concerned about the long term health of our democracy and the checks and balances that require commitment to the Constitution to work. In other words, the most disturbing thing he has done so far is fighting the congressional oversight. So often his rhetoric does not match his actions. In fact, on the world stage, Trump comes off as toothless even with his saber rattling. The most meaningful thing he has done is refuse to honor the JCPOA. Everything else has been just noise. Domestically, most of the immigration stuff is fairly appalling other than that, he continues to fold when the going gets tough. It's always been his MO personally and professionally, to make a bunch of noise, but be a bore.
Boy, I think you're really underestimating how dangerous Trump is TBH, and the actual harm he is doing, if you think "everything else is just noise". What about the deregulation of environmental protections, his trade war with China, the very real threat to women's rights, the impact of the travel bans, and the very serious and damaging impact he's having on the public as far as the free press goes? And just the rhetoric alone will also have a long-lasting negative impact on America, both socially and politically. I know what you mean about the 33%. The problem is that some of the bullshit actually affects the rest of the population as well, slowly but surely. That is how Hitler got the majority of Germans to go along eventually, and to at least be apathetic, and not just the minority that straight up supported him and his crazier viewpoints. The psychological affects of this shit gets under the skin. Plus, some of what you're calling noise really isn't, as Jose just suggested as well. I think you shouldn't be so dismissive of his "noise". It carries meaning.
The policies, while misguided and generally diabolical, are legal. I'm against just about every one of them. But they don't threaten our democracy. Now do they harm individuals and environment? Yes, absolutely. But I am drawing a distinction between legal policies that I despise and someone moving towards a true dictatorship. And you're right, it carries meaning and I think he means what he says, but he has the gift of the cult of personality. Fortunately he's an old man and his children are even more of a bore than him, and without a personality. That's why the family isn't as concerning to me long term.
The abortion bills aren't legal. They are unconstitutional. So are a lot of the other things he's doing. Not to mention all of his illegal activity, lol, particularly when it comes to his profiting from the presidency, and the obstruction of justice, and his urging to ignore subpoenas... etc. How many investigations are still going on against him right now? Several, no? Like a dozen at least?
The bills will likely be stayed until they go to the SCOTUS. And your secondary points are exactly what I have talked about, lack of adherence to congressional oversight. All of your criticisms fall into that bucket.
But you seem to be trusting that he's not going to get away with it... I think many disagree, and that is obviously why people are so worried, and why I think you should be more worried. You still seem to have total faith in those checks and balances that everyone was talking about in 2016... But I see a lot of good reasons not to have very much faith in them because of how Trump operates. That is the whole point I think. That Constitution of yours isn't actually infallible. Also, there are still kids in cages and still thousands of kids who were kidnapped by the government and still missing. Obviously checks and balances are not working.
Allie - I absolutely am worried about hte checks and balances because they fundamentally rely on the belief that the Constitution is more important than any one individual or party. I am worried that he is going to get away with it. I'm saying that much of his other noise on the world stage is just noise, but refusing the oversight is a huge problem. It is THE problem in my view. Much of his crazy ass EO's, including the JCPOA, the tariffs, the wall, all that bullshit can be deconstructed and put back by President Any Other Functioning Adult. But if breaks the faith in the institutions and respect for the Constitution, that's the long term damage. It's up to the courts now. And if he refuses after the courts, then it's truly impeachable, and unassailably so.
I think I am with you on this. But let's say it goes to SCOTUS and he loses, which is the likely scenario and then he still refuses to provide the info requested..........what happens?
0
Options
The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,279
edited May 2019
Only Jimmy Carter had a lower overall approval rating at this point in his tenure than Trump and his economy was in the crapper. Imagine how low Trump's would be in that scenario combined with everything else?
Just wanted to remind folks that this is still an historically unpopular president:
He actually broke the law when he had those Sanctions are Coming posters made and laid them on the table and then of course didn't mention that they were there.
It the same shit he says China does intellectual property.
Comments
*And yes, I think these things are all possible in the second term.
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
Without question Don Trump is a Hitler wannabe. He ends up looking and sounding more like Eddie Money.
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
My 2 hands cents
he’s been joking about this for the past yr when will he be taken seriously!
I think I am with you on this. But let's say it goes to SCOTUS and he loses, which is the likely scenario and then he still refuses to provide the info requested..........what happens?
Just wanted to remind folks that this is still an historically unpopular president:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo
He actually broke the law when he had those Sanctions are Coming posters made and laid them on the table and then of course didn't mention that they were there.
It the same shit he says China does intellectual property.