Look, there is no such thing an abortion being performed on a live fetus when the mother is about to give birth. That is called CHILDBIRTH.
Watch the video. Go to 1:50. Then we’ll talk.
so if you think that Trump's take is "spot on", that the baby is born and THEN they kill it, how are they killing it?
no licensed physician who wants to practice medicine would ever "abort" a fetus while the mother is giving birth.
I do not, however, agree with aborting a fetus in the latter stages because of "mental harm". that opens way too many doors.
No, I agree that he was spot on as far as saying exactly what blackface said. I don’t think it happens, not sure the confusion here. Blackface was asked about what kathy Tran said, he confirmed that the bill was to include abortions of babies after they were born. Trump tweeted what he said. Do I think they are performing post birth abortions? No. Do I think that her testimony shows that they would be included in that bill (which was voted down)? Yes, that’s what she said.
Why don't you refer to the Potus as a pussy grabber? You must think blackface in 1984 is worse than sexually assaulting a woman today. Your morals are really fucked up.
Because that’s something he said. This dude did it, and is in a picture with his face painted black next to a dude in a kkk outfit. I know you don’t want to admit it, but people say fucked up shit all the time. Sucks for him it was recorded, but friends of mine and myself say worse shit every day to each other to get a laugh.
not defending trump in this regard, just saying, get me a photo of him grabbing a pussy and I’ll call him a pussy grabber, no question.
Ha! So you don't think he actually made a practice of aggressively coming onto women over the years, whether they wanted it or not? Jesus, are you naive or daft.
For the record, Northam denied it was him. So I guess you should edit your post.
Name a man in power these days who hasn’t! That’s what they all do, they’re all dirtbags, I won’t defend any of them. Just saying, dude has a pee tape of him in blackface. Deny deny, but he got made.
Obama. Kaine. Bush.
Obama is a dirt bag, eh? Okay, whatever is necessary to normalize Trump and your vote.
Jesus bro, relax, why are you so mad? Lol. I rationalize my vote by a good economy. I don’t read about what trump wears, rarely ever what he tweets. Things are going really well for me and that’s a good thing. If you let yourself get mad all the time over stupid stuff that doesn’t affect you, you’re fighting a losing battle. Just worry about the stuff you can do something about. Life’s too short to sweat the small stuff.
How do they it say it in the gun thread again? Oh yeah, thoughts and prayers to your naivety. You're me first and always attitude is the standard Trump voter. If only there was a way for instant karma to come and knock you right on the head...
So you know, I’ve never gotten a penny from anyone. I started with nothing, have never had health care, and paid for my entire bachelors degree and masters degrees with my own money. I believe in busting your ass, not free shit for lazy people. I own two businesses and two houses, have over 70 employees, and have now had 1 day off in the last year. So go ahead and attack me with your wishes of me getting hit in the head. I will never respect laziness. laziness, and if you have enough time to call people names and attack them on a band’s website, all you’re doing is being lazy when you could be working. You tell me I only care about myself but I give away more money in charity to causes for vets and cancer (lots both my rents to cancer when I was in my 20’s) thank you probably ever will. You don’t impress me.
thing is, being a white male (correct me if I'm wrong), maybe you didn't have any literal pennies given to you in your quest for success (much respect to you), but you had figurative ones given to you at every turn. part of what people despise about trump, is that he is giving more figurative pennies to the white and the rich. more so the latter. but he doing absolutely nothing to help minorities or those that didn't have the benefits we have "winning the lottery by being born".
I am white, yep. Grew up in a shitty household in a family with 6 kids. Grew up sharing a bedroom with 3 brothers, moved 5 times by the time I was 11. Not sure I was given a whole lot by being white. Went to an inner city school where there weren’t too many white kids, always got my ass kicked a lot and kept to myself. Not sure what privilege I got. Started washing dishes in a shitty restaurant at 15 and have been on my feet ever since.
again, I respect all that. I'm not trying to take away from what you have accomplished. I'm just saying you got more than you think you did, most times without probably even knowing it. A woman or minority wouldn't have the same opportunities at every step of the way that you did. You don't think you never got job, or even an interview, based on your gender and colour?
I'm in Winnipeg. The so-called most racist Canadian city. I can GUARANTEE you that if it was between me and an aboriginal who had the same credentials as me, no DOUBT I had an advantage. Doesn't matter if it was an office job or a dishwashing job at a shitty restaurant (which I have also done).
I’m sure you’re right, but I’m not the kind of person to feel bad about the Chan’s I’ve been dealt. You play the game or you fold. Making excuses and saying that’s unfair doesn’t get us anywhere. Talking about white privilege is useless, just work your ass off and save your money, that’s all I did. If it doesn’t work then it doesn’t work, shouldn’t mean you start blaming other people for your problems, you know? Isn’t Canada like 75% white by the way?
You don't have to feel bad about the cards you've dealt to want to create a future where everyone's hand stands a chance at winning - even if not the game, at least a round here and there. I feel great about my privilege, but I feel strong when I consider my obligation to contribute towards those with less than me.
I’m sure you’re right, but I’m not the kind of person to feel bad about the Chan’s I’ve been dealt. You play the game or you fold. Making excuses and saying that’s unfair doesn’t get us anywhere. Talking about white privilege is useless, just work your ass off and save your money, that’s all I did. If it doesn’t work then it doesn’t work, shouldn’t mean you start blaming other people for your problems, you know? Isn’t Canada like 75% white by the way?
ok, so first you claimed you got nothing handed to you, literally or figuratively. then you acknowledge you did but now you don't care about it and it's a waste of time talking about it. now you go back to saying just do what you did and you'll be fine, or if you aren't, it's your own problem.
Easy to say when you’re the one getting the benefits of the system.
But what should a white guy do? Not work hard? Turn down a promotion? This is a vexing argument. I also come from a very poor background. I worked through college, got an entry level job at a bank (customer service) and took off from there. Where I started my career, we had a very diverse population, and it was very gay friendly (extremely so for the late 90's). There were lots of people of all backgrounds that worked hard, but even more that were lazy. Didn't do OT, didn't look for new opportunities, etc. I did and it paid off. I don't think I need to apologize for that. I have no idea how much being a white male helped, but maybe it did. That's hard to quantify. But what does one do?
What do you do? Recognize the reality of the situation and the benefits you’ve accrued with something you had no control over, and be open to the fact that what you’ve experienced isn’t the default.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Look, there is no such thing an abortion being performed on a live fetus when the mother is about to give birth. That is called CHILDBIRTH.
Watch the video. Go to 1:50. Then we’ll talk.
so if you think that Trump's take is "spot on", that the baby is born and THEN they kill it, how are they killing it?
no licensed physician who wants to practice medicine would ever "abort" a fetus while the mother is giving birth.
I do not, however, agree with aborting a fetus in the latter stages because of "mental harm". that opens way too many doors.
No, I agree that he was spot on as far as saying exactly what blackface said. I don’t think it happens, not sure the confusion here. Blackface was asked about what kathy Tran said, he confirmed that the bill was to include abortions of babies after they were born. Trump tweeted what he said. Do I think they are performing post birth abortions? No. Do I think that her testimony shows that they would be included in that bill (which was voted down)? Yes, that’s what she said.
Why don't you refer to the Potus as a pussy grabber? You must think blackface in 1984 is worse than sexually assaulting a woman today. Your morals are really fucked up.
Because that’s something he said. This dude did it, and is in a picture with his face painted black next to a dude in a kkk outfit. I know you don’t want to admit it, but people say fucked up shit all the time. Sucks for him it was recorded, but friends of mine and myself say worse shit every day to each other to get a laugh.
not defending trump in this regard, just saying, get me a photo of him grabbing a pussy and I’ll call him a pussy grabber, no question.
Ha! So you don't think he actually made a practice of aggressively coming onto women over the years, whether they wanted it or not? Jesus, are you naive or daft.
For the record, Northam denied it was him. So I guess you should edit your post.
Name a man in power these days who hasn’t! That’s what they all do, they’re all dirtbags, I won’t defend any of them. Just saying, dude has a pee tape of him in blackface. Deny deny, but he got made.
Obama. Kaine. Bush.
Obama is a dirt bag, eh? Okay, whatever is necessary to normalize Trump and your vote.
Jesus bro, relax, why are you so mad? Lol. I rationalize my vote by a good economy. I don’t read about what trump wears, rarely ever what he tweets. Things are going really well for me and that’s a good thing. If you let yourself get mad all the time over stupid stuff that doesn’t affect you, you’re fighting a losing battle. Just worry about the stuff you can do something about. Life’s too short to sweat the small stuff.
How do they it say it in the gun thread again? Oh yeah, thoughts and prayers to your naivety. You're me first and always attitude is the standard Trump voter. If only there was a way for instant karma to come and knock you right on the head...
So you know, I’ve never gotten a penny from anyone. I started with nothing, have never had health care, and paid for my entire bachelors degree and masters degrees with my own money. I believe in busting your ass, not free shit for lazy people. I own two businesses and two houses, have over 70 employees, and have now had 1 day off in the last year. So go ahead and attack me with your wishes of me getting hit in the head. I will never respect laziness. laziness, and if you have enough time to call people names and attack them on a band’s website, all you’re doing is being lazy when you could be working. You tell me I only care about myself but I give away more money in charity to causes for vets and cancer (lots both my rents to cancer when I was in my 20’s) thank you probably ever will. You don’t impress me.
thing is, being a white male (correct me if I'm wrong), maybe you didn't have any literal pennies given to you in your quest for success (much respect to you), but you had figurative ones given to you at every turn. part of what people despise about trump, is that he is giving more figurative pennies to the white and the rich. more so the latter. but he doing absolutely nothing to help minorities or those that didn't have the benefits we have "winning the lottery by being born".
I am white, yep. Grew up in a shitty household in a family with 6 kids. Grew up sharing a bedroom with 3 brothers, moved 5 times by the time I was 11. Not sure I was given a whole lot by being white. Went to an inner city school where there weren’t too many white kids, always got my ass kicked a lot and kept to myself. Not sure what privilege I got. Started washing dishes in a shitty restaurant at 15 and have been on my feet ever since.
again, I respect all that. I'm not trying to take away from what you have accomplished. I'm just saying you got more than you think you did, most times without probably even knowing it. A woman or minority wouldn't have the same opportunities at every step of the way that you did. You don't think you never got job, or even an interview, based on your gender and colour?
I'm in Winnipeg. The so-called most racist Canadian city. I can GUARANTEE you that if it was between me and an aboriginal who had the same credentials as me, no DOUBT I had an advantage. Doesn't matter if it was an office job or a dishwashing job at a shitty restaurant (which I have also done).
I agree white privilege exists, but not in the way that you describe. It exists in that when my grandfather had opportunities to get educated and better jobs the blacks did not. It would be foolish to think that does not trickle down to me, that I don't benefit from the advantages my grandparents and beyond had. As a result of that my parents were better off, better educated and had better jobs and then me. I wouldn't deny that.
But I would say with very high confidence that I, and probably almost no one else, never got a job because I was white. Maybe we got a job because we were better educated, and we were better educated because my grandfather was white, sure. But I never got jobs, handouts, loans, etc directly because I was white. On the other hand I have had more than 1 employer openly admit if they have the opportunity to chose between 2 candidates they will always chose the minority. There may be examples like yours, but I believe that is the exception, not the norm in most places.
You would be wrong with your assertion that you have never gotten a job or other opportunity due to your race.
Edit for clarity: I should have said you would be "almost certainly wrong". I don't know your work history. Maybe you've only ever worked for a family business? But if you've been in the competitive job market, your very high confidence is misplaced. Research has shown that, time and time again.
Post edited by oftenreading on
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
The dude just explained he’s worked his ass off for everything he’s accomplished. Why the need to shit all over him? He’s self employed. He didn’t get handed a corner office job because he’s white. These negative comments are ridiculous and disgusting, frankly.
he has worked his ass off. no, he didn't get a corner office because of being white. but he did say he supports trump because of the individual effects of the economy for his own benefit, and he really has no regard for the others that it doesn't affect or affects in a negative way.
claiming he worked his ass off and others are lazy being the sole reason he is successful and others are not is incorrect. it is a fact that most of us start the race halfway down the track. no one starts their working life self-employed. he has had opportunities 'lazy people' have not.
Look, there is no such thing an abortion being performed on a live fetus when the mother is about to give birth. That is called CHILDBIRTH.
Watch the video. Go to 1:50. Then we’ll talk.
so if you think that Trump's take is "spot on", that the baby is born and THEN they kill it, how are they killing it?
no licensed physician who wants to practice medicine would ever "abort" a fetus while the mother is giving birth.
I do not, however, agree with aborting a fetus in the latter stages because of "mental harm". that opens way too many doors.
No, I agree that he was spot on as far as saying exactly what blackface said. I don’t think it happens, not sure the confusion here. Blackface was asked about what kathy Tran said, he confirmed that the bill was to include abortions of babies after they were born. Trump tweeted what he said. Do I think they are performing post birth abortions? No. Do I think that her testimony shows that they would be included in that bill (which was voted down)? Yes, that’s what she said.
Why don't you refer to the Potus as a pussy grabber? You must think blackface in 1984 is worse than sexually assaulting a woman today. Your morals are really fucked up.
Because that’s something he said. This dude did it, and is in a picture with his face painted black next to a dude in a kkk outfit. I know you don’t want to admit it, but people say fucked up shit all the time. Sucks for him it was recorded, but friends of mine and myself say worse shit every day to each other to get a laugh.
not defending trump in this regard, just saying, get me a photo of him grabbing a pussy and I’ll call him a pussy grabber, no question.
Ha! So you don't think he actually made a practice of aggressively coming onto women over the years, whether they wanted it or not? Jesus, are you naive or daft.
For the record, Northam denied it was him. So I guess you should edit your post.
Name a man in power these days who hasn’t! That’s what they all do, they’re all dirtbags, I won’t defend any of them. Just saying, dude has a pee tape of him in blackface. Deny deny, but he got made.
Obama. Kaine. Bush.
Obama is a dirt bag, eh? Okay, whatever is necessary to normalize Trump and your vote.
Jesus bro, relax, why are you so mad? Lol. I rationalize my vote by a good economy. I don’t read about what trump wears, rarely ever what he tweets. Things are going really well for me and that’s a good thing. If you let yourself get mad all the time over stupid stuff that doesn’t affect you, you’re fighting a losing battle. Just worry about the stuff you can do something about. Life’s too short to sweat the small stuff.
not so sure the economy is significantly better under trump by himself that it was under obama.
my sense is its a continuation that saw a real bump with threats of tariffs coming.
I drive a truck for a living. I made .603cpm first quarter last year. grossed just under 20k. by a couple hundred dollars.
THIS year I make .674cpm and saw just over 20k gross in the 1st quarter. by a couple hundred dollars.
so based on a 125k miles driven year that raise should translate to just north of 7k per year extra So far its not. tell me again how great the economy is?
The poster above just stated that things are going well for him, that the economy is the only determinant of a good or bad President, and where the economy isn't helping others, he doesn't care. That's the kind of person who's not going to be swayed by any goodwill based argument, nor any other except his own financial challenges (which to be clear, I hope don't develop, but I suspect will based on factors out of his control but within his President's).
RoleModelsinBlood31, out of curiosity, has there ever been a time for you where anything other than the economy was an important pursuit from a POTUS? I can respect that everyone has different priorities, and some weight many things materially, others say that these one or two issues matter a great deal.
Of course. I’m pretty liberal socially but conservative fiscally. When I heard him say he wanted to build a wall back a few years ago I thought it was a great idea, same with bussing them to sanctuary cities. As far as abortion, I’m pro choice, I own a few guns but rarely ever even go to a range anymore. Politics pretty much rules by fear I find, both sides just scare their bases with fake threats and nothing really changes. The only thing that really has ever affected me personally was/is the economy, so that’s important to me. The environment is as well, I don’t see it as apocalyptic as many do but I try to do my part and have all the water barrels and solar panels and all that stuff that I can. Anyway, these are all broken thoughts, sorry, I’m busy as usual so I just add a thought here and there when I can come back to my phone.
I, for one, outside of high school have always worked under women bosses and was in the minority regarding gender/race in the particular field. The boss I work under now is a female and a minority. I didn’t realize I was hired due to my white manliness all along. Oh, the overwhelming white guiltiness! I recognize many aspects of privilege in other aspects of society, and overall, but don’t be a dick to someone who pulled himself up from poverty. Still plenty of homeless white men last time I checked, too bad they didn’t just ride the easy white privilege train...
again, I respect all that. I'm not trying to take away from what you have accomplished. I'm just saying you got more than you think you did, most times without probably even knowing it. A woman or minority wouldn't have the same opportunities at every step of the way that you did. You don't think you never got job, or even an interview, based on your gender and colour?
I'm in Winnipeg. The so-called most racist Canadian city. I can GUARANTEE you that if it was between me and an aboriginal who had the same credentials as me, no DOUBT I had an advantage. Doesn't matter if it was an office job or a dishwashing job at a shitty restaurant (which I have also done).
I agree white privilege exists, but not in the way that you describe. It exists in that when my grandfather had opportunities to get educated and better jobs the blacks did not. It would be foolish to think that does not trickle down to me, that I don't benefit from the advantages my grandparents and beyond had. As a result of that my parents were better off, better educated and had better jobs and then me. I wouldn't deny that.
But I would say with very high confidence that I, and probably almost no one else, never got a job because I was white. Maybe we got a job because we were better educated, and we were better educated because my grandfather was white, sure. But I never got jobs, handouts, loans, etc directly because I was white. On the other hand I have had more than 1 employer openly admit if they have the opportunity to chose between 2 candidates they will always chose the minority. There may be examples like yours, but I believe that is the exception, not the norm in most places.
You would be wrong with your assertion that you have never gotten a job or other opportunity due to your race.
Edit for clarity: I should have said you would be "almost certainly wrong". I don't know your work history. Maybe you've only ever worked for a family business? But if you've been in the competitive job market, your very high confidence is misplaced. Research has shown that, time and time again.
I worked for a small family business in college of about 3 (non-family) employees, the other 2 were Hispanic. I've worked at 3 schools since then, 2 of those schools have openly said they prefer to hire minorities over whites when given the chance.
I, for one, outside of high school have always worked under women bosses and was in the minority regarding gender/race in the particular field. The boss I work under now is a female and a minority. I didn’t realize I was hired due to my white manliness all along. Oh, the overwhelming white guiltiness!
it's obviously not 100%. it's just highly likely that at some point in your life, and most likely multiple times, you have experienced it.
I would really like to know where this "white guilt" saying came from. no one is saying anyone needs to feel guilty about it. just acknowledge it and act accordingly.
Easy to say when you’re the one getting the benefits of the system.
But what should a white guy do? Not work hard? Turn down a promotion? This is a vexing argument. I also come from a very poor background. I worked through college, got an entry level job at a bank (customer service) and took off from there. Where I started my career, we had a very diverse population, and it was very gay friendly (extremely so for the late 90's). There were lots of people of all backgrounds that worked hard, but even more that were lazy. Didn't do OT, didn't look for new opportunities, etc. I did and it paid off. I don't think I need to apologize for that. I have no idea how much being a white male helped, but maybe it did. That's hard to quantify. But what does one do?
What do you do? Recognize the reality of the situation and the benefits you’ve accrued with something you had no control over, and be open to the fact that what you’ve experienced isn’t the default.
I already do that. I also vote liberal. I think it was Mace that said the legacy effect is real, and I completely agree with that. It wasn't my situation since my dad was an immigrant, and died poor, but I can see how that legacy money really makes a difference.
I, for one, outside of high school have always worked under women bosses and was in the minority regarding gender/race in the particular field. The boss I work under now is a female and a minority. I didn’t realize I was hired due to my white manliness all along. Oh, the overwhelming white guiltiness!
it's obviously not 100%. it's just highly likely that at some point in your life, and most likely multiple times, you have experienced it.
I would really like to know where this "white guilt" saying came from. no one is saying anyone needs to feel guilty about it. just acknowledge it and act accordingly.
Oh, I totally agree overall and I know I have experienced it to some extent throughout my life, but I get the impression some here think that the only way white men get jobs is “white privilege”. That is definitely not 100% I have definitely seen examples of privileged vs not and it is not always about race or gender. Sometimes it is merely the way someone presents themselves, I have seen people turned away because of tattoos, clothing (not being able to afford nice clothes), piercings, etc in the job market, but never directly saw this happen due specifically to race or gender. Could just be the market I am in...
The dude just explained he’s worked his ass off for everything he’s accomplished. Why the need to shit all over him? He’s self employed. He didn’t get handed a corner office job because he’s white. These negative comments are ridiculous and disgusting, frankly.
he has worked his ass off. no, he didn't get a corner office because of being white. but he did say he supports trump because of the individual effects of the economy for his own benefit, and he really has no regard for the others that it doesn't affect or affects in a negative way.
claiming he worked his ass off and others are lazy being the sole reason he is successful and others are not is incorrect. it is a fact that most of us start the race halfway down the track. no one starts their working life self-employed. he has had opportunities 'lazy people' have not.
the criticism is warranted.
Right or wrong, a large percentage of voters vote with their pocket book in mind. That may be looked upon as self-serving, but it doesn’t necessarily mean those people have a complete disregard for everyone else. Some might. Not all.
Just curious, what's wrong with voting for who makes the country better for you? If everyone did that, wouldn't what is best for the masses always win? I mean, obviously aside from genocide or something. But just from an economy standpoint, why shouldn't that be the case?
I don't want to doubt the truth/accomplishments of someone I don't know anything about.
But I legitimately believe that the desire people have to believe they did everything they did because of their own hard work and intelligence is detrimental. It makes it easier to dismiss the plights of others as their own fault. It's not that black and white. In fact, it's about as nuanced of an issue as there is.
So taking RollModels at face value, he's in a very tiny minority. A tiny minority of people that "had nothing" getting to his place in life (and tiny a minority of people in his place in life that started with nothing).
I have a friend that believes this whole-heartedly. He graduated high school (needed summer school to do it) and now makes $150,000 per year because his uncle hired him out of high school. I'm not saying he doesn't work hard, but to think he would have found a way to where he is now if he didn't have the right relative is just naive. He thinks he did it all by himself, though. Probably because it's easier than wrestling with the notion that he was lucky. And he was. I don't begrudge him that...but I admit that I wish he at least understood.
And I'd love, love, love to have a nickel for for every middle-class person that said "I busted my ASS..." I'm not even saying that this isn't true. That's not the point. The point is that our fairly capitalistic society is set up for people to succeed and fail across a spectrum and I'd be surprised if the biggest indicator of success (i.e., income) is where you start in life. You're more likely to succeed if you start with certain advantages than if you don't. The question is, do we consider that a flaw that we want to correct?
(As for me...grew up upper-middle class, good public school system, only child so parents paid for college. While I didn't have a rich uncle to give me a cushy job or a $25,000 per year high school education, I certainly overcame very little to get to upper-middle-class. My wife's a far more interesting story...grew up in poverty (on welfare for a couple of years)...parents could pay for no school or much else, for that matter. So she took loans out for college and grad school. We talk about this sometimes, how she had economic/future anxiety in college while accumulating loans; I did not. But she acknowledges that she went to a middle/upper school system and she was at least well-prepared academically...an advantage that white poor seem to have over black poor quite often. It's layered and it's nuanced. Almost no two people have the exact same hurdles and advantages. But we tend to talk about it in black and white.)
Ands then there's the anecdotes of the person who truly had nothing. Great stories...but I think they do more harm than good.
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I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing. But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in? I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.
Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's right morally and ethically. And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.
I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing. But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in? I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.
Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's right morally and ethically. And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.
Absolutely, and I think that it happens far more than one would think. Look how close the votes are by income level. You can see that it's not a primary factor, that there are issues much deeper that divide us, more so than income.
I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing. But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in? I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.
Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's right morally and ethically. And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.
Agreed. I know plenty of people that voted for him in ‘16 that will not in ‘20. I do see a lot of shade thrown on those folks around here though. It’s like you’re forever branded if you voted for the guy, even if your moral compass spun in another direction after seeing his true colors.
Easy to say when you’re the one getting the benefits of the system.
But what should a white guy do? Not work hard? Turn down a promotion? This is a vexing argument. I also come from a very poor background. I worked through college, got an entry level job at a bank (customer service) and took off from there. Where I started my career, we had a very diverse population, and it was very gay friendly (extremely so for the late 90's). There were lots of people of all backgrounds that worked hard, but even more that were lazy. Didn't do OT, didn't look for new opportunities, etc. I did and it paid off. I don't think I need to apologize for that. I have no idea how much being a white male helped, but maybe it did. That's hard to quantify. But what does one do?
What do you do? Recognize the reality of the situation and the benefits you’ve accrued with something you had no control over, and be open to the fact that what you’ve experienced isn’t the default.
I already do that. I also vote liberal. I think it was Mace that said the legacy effect is real, and I completely agree with that. It wasn't my situation since my dad was an immigrant, and died poor, but I can see how that legacy money really makes a difference.
I didn’t mean it to come across that I think you aren’t. I mean “you” in the general sense. I would hope that everyone would be open enough to recognize the unearned benefits they get.
And as for that, it would be great if everyone recognized the massive benefits those of us born in Canada or the US, completely due to an accident of birth, compared to billions of other people in the world.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing. But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in? I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.
Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's right morally and ethically. And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.
Agreed. I know plenty of people that voted for him in ‘16 that will not in ‘20. I do see a lot of shade thrown on those folks around here though. It’s like you’re forever branded if you voted for the guy, even if your moral compass spun in another direction after seeing his true colors.
His colors was on display from the getgo.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing. But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in? I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.
Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's right morally and ethically. And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.
Agreed. I know plenty of people that voted for him in ‘16 that will not in ‘20. I do see a lot of shade thrown on those folks around here though. It’s like you’re forever branded if you voted for the guy, even if your moral compass spun in another direction after seeing his true colors.
for me personally, judging those would only apply to those that vote for him a second time. I have no issue with someone voting for someone once. as hillary said "let the man govern". and how we have. and he's a fucking disaster.
I think it's great that so many have succeeded when being born with so little or nothing. But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in? I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.
Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's right morally and ethically. And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.
Agreed. I know plenty of people that voted for him in ‘16 that will not in ‘20. I do see a lot of shade thrown on those folks around here though. It’s like you’re forever branded if you voted for the guy, even if your moral compass spun in another direction after seeing his true colors.
for me personally, judging those would only apply to those that vote for him a second time. I have no issue with someone voting for someone once. as hillary said "let the man govern". and how we have. and he's a fucking disaster.
Why do you feel the need to insult fucking disasters?
I don't want to doubt the truth/accomplishments of someone I don't know anything about.
But I legitimately believe that the desire people have to believe they did everything they did because of their own hard work and intelligence is detrimental. It makes it easier to dismiss the plights of others as their own fault. It's not that black and white. In fact, it's about as nuanced of an issue as there is.
So taking RollModels at face value, he's in a very tiny minority. A tiny minority of people that "had nothing" getting to his place in life (and tiny a minority of people in his place in life that started with nothing).
I have a friend that believes this whole-heartedly. He graduated high school (needed summer school to do it) and now makes $150,000 per year because his uncle hired him out of high school. I'm not saying he doesn't work hard, but to think he would have found a way to where he is now if he didn't have the right relative is just naive. He thinks he did it all by himself, though. Probably because it's easier than wrestling with the notion that he was lucky. And he was. I don't begrudge him that...but I admit that I wish he at least understood.
And I'd love, love, love to have a nickel for for every middle-class person that said "I busted my ASS..." I'm not even saying that this isn't true. That's not the point. The point is that our fairly capitalistic society is set up for people to succeed and fail across a spectrum and I'd be surprised if the biggest indicator of success (i.e., income) is where you start in life. You're more likely to succeed if you start with certain advantages than if you don't. The question is, do we consider that a flaw that we want to correct?
(As for me...grew up upper-middle class, good public school system, only child so parents paid for college. While I didn't have a rich uncle to give me a cushy job or a $25,000 per year high school education, I certainly overcame very little to get to upper-middle-class. My wife's a far more interesting story...grew up in poverty (on welfare for a couple of years)...parents could pay for no school or much else, for that matter. So she took loans out for college and grad school. We talk about this sometimes, how she had economic/future anxiety in college while accumulating loans; I did not. But she acknowledges that she went to a middle/upper school system and she was at least well-prepared academically...an advantage that white poor seem to have over black poor quite often. It's layered and it's nuanced. Almost no two people have the exact same hurdles and advantages. But we tend to talk about it in black and white.)
Ands then there's the anecdotes of the person who truly had nothing. Great stories...but I think they do more harm than good.
I'd highly recommend reading this article on the role luck plays in life. As soon as I started reading what you'd written, I thought of it. The thing is though, I feel that luck can be manufactured or constrained just like anything (and that's where government can if it so desires step in), even though in many cases it's just luck.
I don't want to doubt the truth/accomplishments of someone I don't know anything about.
But I legitimately believe that the desire people have to believe they did everything they did because of their own hard work and intelligence is detrimental. It makes it easier to dismiss the plights of others as their own fault. It's not that black and white. In fact, it's about as nuanced of an issue as there is.
So taking RollModels at face value, he's in a very tiny minority. A tiny minority of people that "had nothing" getting to his place in life (and tiny a minority of people in his place in life that started with nothing).
I have a friend that believes this whole-heartedly. He graduated high school (needed summer school to do it) and now makes $150,000 per year because his uncle hired him out of high school. I'm not saying he doesn't work hard, but to think he would have found a way to where he is now if he didn't have the right relative is just naive. He thinks he did it all by himself, though. Probably because it's easier than wrestling with the notion that he was lucky. And he was. I don't begrudge him that...but I admit that I wish he at least understood.
And I'd love, love, love to have a nickel for for every middle-class person that said "I busted my ASS..." I'm not even saying that this isn't true. That's not the point. The point is that our fairly capitalistic society is set up for people to succeed and fail across a spectrum and I'd be surprised if the biggest indicator of success (i.e., income) is where you start in life. You're more likely to succeed if you start with certain advantages than if you don't. The question is, do we consider that a flaw that we want to correct?
(As for me...grew up upper-middle class, good public school system, only child so parents paid for college. While I didn't have a rich uncle to give me a cushy job or a $25,000 per year high school education, I certainly overcame very little to get to upper-middle-class. My wife's a far more interesting story...grew up in poverty (on welfare for a couple of years)...parents could pay for no school or much else, for that matter. So she took loans out for college and grad school. We talk about this sometimes, how she had economic/future anxiety in college while accumulating loans; I did not. But she acknowledges that she went to a middle/upper school system and she was at least well-prepared academically...an advantage that white poor seem to have over black poor quite often. It's layered and it's nuanced. Almost no two people have the exact same hurdles and advantages. But we tend to talk about it in black and white.)
Ands then there's the anecdotes of the person who truly had nothing. Great stories...but I think they do more harm than good.
I'd highly recommend reading this article on the role luck plays in life. As soon as I started reading what you'd written, I thought of it. The thing is though, I feel that luck can be manufactured or constrained just like anything (and that's where government can if it so desires step in), even though in many cases it's just luck.
Luck and the unknown play a large part in many people's lives.
I grew up lower middle class, intact family and excelled in school, took out loans for college while working full time in various jobs and excelled in college. I had help from my family as far as a home, food, support, but there were also problems at home and I was lucky enough to have been born with work ethic and smarts and did what I had to in order to get my BA, first in my family to graduate college, and then took a year off so I could 'just' work full time as a waitress and get my driver's license and a car and insurance (on my own) and then took my first career job that would lead to a career in Advertising Research in the City and rose to head of my department working insane hours and at home on weekends It was my career though and I put everything into it.
I was rewarded with bonuses and allowed to hire more people for our department and my next step within that company would have been VP. I was good at whatever I tried to do and people noticed. And then I got sick out of nowhere. I tried to ignore it for awhile but it became something that made it impossible for me to function as I had always functioned. I was reeling because I went on short term disability with all expectations to return to my position but I didn't get better, I continued to get worse for awhile. I was dealing with something that I had no experience with and it messed me up because I was always able to accomplish what I set my mind to do.
I also stopped drinking at the same time, because it was a problem that I had to face in order to get better. My husband of a few years left me when I didn't stop drinking in a year (he being a lover of drinking himself). And my father died. So within 2 years, I went from having a straight road of succeeding in whatever I set my mind to no matter what I set out to accomplish to losing my great job and future to a disabling disease, while dealing with getting sober, having my husband leave me, losing my dad, going bankrupt and having my income plummet which, naturally impacted how I lived and what I could do. I did get sober, I learned to live with my disability but was declared permanently disabled by an admin law judge and there were more shoes waiting to drop in my future. And those aren't excuses or blaming, those are facts.
I hate being disabled, I worked too hard to be in this position, but I didn't get to choose when a hidden disease within my genes decided to pop up and disrupt my entire life. I have learned all kinds of talents through the years and raised a child with extremely modest means. I have attempted to begin part time work several times and each time an extremely serious situation has occurred which set me back. I am not where I thought I would be at my age, far from it.
I am not lazy, I was a driven person from as early as I can remember. My disability has changed my ability to be a go-getter. I would still be working as hard as possible in whatever job I had risen to with a nice 401K for my retirement. An abusive partner siphoned the 401K I did have. I wish that I was living the life that I always imagined. Or was productive in some sort of financially and personally satisfactory way.
But luck did not work in my favor and my entire life was changed due to something that was completely out of my control. This is what happens to a lot of people who are hard workers. You don't get to choose the hand you're dealt sometimes and it can be devastating.
So lazy is not a word that applies to a lot of people with varying stories about how their working life was changed for the worse. Sometimes life just happens and you deal with it as best you can. Those of you who are working hard and living a good life, I envy you, that was supposed to be me.
The dude just explained he’s worked his ass off for everything he’s accomplished. Why the need to shit all over him? He’s self employed. He didn’t get handed a corner office job because he’s white. These negative comments are ridiculous and disgusting, frankly.
Everything he's accomplished? He gave his reason for being a VICTIM and a Trump knobslob. I rationalize my vote by a good economy.
Comments
And no, we're incredibly diverse by ethnicity (the way our census polls us), which is strongly correlated with skin colour, if access to opportunity must be distilled to that fact. https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/hlt-fst/imm/Table.cfm?Lang=E&T=31&Geo=01&SO=4D
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
then you acknowledge you did but now you don't care about it and it's a waste of time talking about it.
now you go back to saying just do what you did and you'll be fine, or if you aren't, it's your own problem.
you don't see any issues with that attitude?
what are "the Chan's"?
www.headstonesband.com
Edit for clarity: I should have said you would be "almost certainly wrong". I don't know your work history. Maybe you've only ever worked for a family business? But if you've been in the competitive job market, your very high confidence is misplaced. Research has shown that, time and time again.
claiming he worked his ass off and others are lazy being the sole reason he is successful and others are not is incorrect. it is a fact that most of us start the race halfway down the track. no one starts their working life self-employed. he has had opportunities 'lazy people' have not.
the criticism is warranted.
www.headstonesband.com
to my phone.
I recognize many aspects of privilege in other aspects of society, and overall, but don’t be a dick to someone who pulled himself up from poverty. Still plenty of homeless white men last time I checked, too bad they didn’t just ride the easy white privilege train...
I would really like to know where this "white guilt" saying came from. no one is saying anyone needs to feel guilty about it. just acknowledge it and act accordingly.
www.headstonesband.com
I have definitely seen examples of privileged vs not and it is not always about race or gender. Sometimes it is merely the way someone presents themselves, I have seen people turned away because of tattoos, clothing (not being able to afford nice clothes), piercings, etc in the job market, but never directly saw this happen due specifically to race or gender. Could just be the market I am in...
If everyone did that, wouldn't what is best for the masses always win?
I mean, obviously aside from genocide or something. But just from an economy standpoint, why shouldn't that be the case?
But I legitimately believe that the desire people have to believe they did everything they did because of their own hard work and intelligence is detrimental. It makes it easier to dismiss the plights of others as their own fault. It's not that black and white. In fact, it's about as nuanced of an issue as there is.
So taking RollModels at face value, he's in a very tiny minority. A tiny minority of people that "had nothing" getting to his place in life (and tiny a minority of people in his place in life that started with nothing).
I have a friend that believes this whole-heartedly. He graduated high school (needed summer school to do it) and now makes $150,000 per year because his uncle hired him out of high school. I'm not saying he doesn't work hard, but to think he would have found a way to where he is now if he didn't have the right relative is just naive. He thinks he did it all by himself, though. Probably because it's easier than wrestling with the notion that he was lucky. And he was. I don't begrudge him that...but I admit that I wish he at least understood.
And I'd love, love, love to have a nickel for for every middle-class person that said "I busted my ASS..." I'm not even saying that this isn't true. That's not the point. The point is that our fairly capitalistic society is set up for people to succeed and fail across a spectrum and I'd be surprised if the biggest indicator of success (i.e., income) is where you start in life. You're more likely to succeed if you start with certain advantages than if you don't. The question is, do we consider that a flaw that we want to correct?
(As for me...grew up upper-middle class, good public school system, only child so parents paid for college. While I didn't have a rich uncle to give me a cushy job or a $25,000 per year high school education, I certainly overcame very little to get to upper-middle-class. My wife's a far more interesting story...grew up in poverty (on welfare for a couple of years)...parents could pay for no school or much else, for that matter. So she took loans out for college and grad school. We talk about this sometimes, how she had economic/future anxiety in college while accumulating loans; I did not. But she acknowledges that she went to a middle/upper school system and she was at least well-prepared academically...an advantage that white poor seem to have over black poor quite often. It's layered and it's nuanced. Almost no two people have the exact same hurdles and advantages. But we tend to talk about it in black and white.)
Ands then there's the anecdotes of the person who truly had nothing. Great stories...but I think they do more harm than good.
2013 Wrigley 2014 St. Paul 2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley 2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley 2021 Asbury Park 2022 St Louis 2023 Austin, Austin
But where does ethics, morals, and doing the right thing come in?
I know a handful of one percenters who voted for the current president, have done very well financially the last 2 years (they don't credit him), but have said they will not vote for him a second time. Mainly because of his constant lying and because of how hateful and racist this regime is.
Sometimes no matter how successful you are financially you have to do what's right morally and ethically.
And being successful isnt always about money and what you buy with it.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/631244/voter-turnout-of-the-exit-polls-of-the-2016-elections-by-income/
And as for that, it would be great if everyone recognized the massive benefits those of us born in Canada or the US, completely due to an accident of birth, compared to billions of other people in the world.
www.headstonesband.com
http://nautil.us/issue/44/luck/dont-tell-your-friends-theyre-lucky
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I grew up lower middle class, intact family and excelled in school, took out loans for college while working full time in various jobs and excelled in college. I had help from my family as far as a home, food, support, but there were also problems at home and I was lucky enough to have been born with work ethic and smarts and did what I had to in order to get my BA, first in my family to graduate college, and then took a year off so I could 'just' work full time as a waitress and get my driver's license and a car and insurance (on my own) and then took my first career job that would lead to a career in Advertising Research in the City and rose to head of my department working insane hours and at home on weekends It was my career though and I put everything into it.
I was rewarded with bonuses and allowed to hire more people for our department and my next step within that company would have been VP. I was good at whatever I tried to do and people noticed. And then I got sick out of nowhere. I tried to ignore it for awhile but it became something that made it impossible for me to function as I had always functioned. I was reeling because I went on short term disability with all expectations to return to my position but I didn't get better, I continued to get worse for awhile. I was dealing with something that I had no experience with and it messed me up because I was always able to accomplish what I set my mind to do.
I also stopped drinking at the same time, because it was a problem that I had to face in order to get better. My husband of a few years left me when I didn't stop drinking in a year (he being a lover of drinking himself). And my father died. So within 2 years, I went from having a straight road of succeeding in whatever I set my mind to no matter what I set out to accomplish to losing my great job and future to a disabling disease, while dealing with getting sober, having my husband leave me, losing my dad, going bankrupt and having my income plummet which, naturally impacted how I lived and what I could do. I did get sober, I learned to live with my disability but was declared permanently disabled by an admin law judge and there were more shoes waiting to drop in my future. And those aren't excuses or blaming, those are facts.
I hate being disabled, I worked too hard to be in this position, but I didn't get to choose when a hidden disease within my genes decided to pop up and disrupt my entire life. I have learned all kinds of talents through the years and raised a child with extremely modest means. I have attempted to begin part time work several times and each time an extremely serious situation has occurred which set me back. I am not where I thought I would be at my age, far from it.
I am not lazy, I was a driven person from as early as I can remember. My disability has changed my ability to be a go-getter. I would still be working as hard as possible in whatever job I had risen to with a nice 401K for my retirement. An abusive partner siphoned the 401K I did have. I wish that I was living the life that I always imagined. Or was productive in some sort of financially and personally satisfactory way.
But luck did not work in my favor and my entire life was changed due to something that was completely out of my control. This is what happens to a lot of people who are hard workers. You don't get to choose the hand you're dealt sometimes and it can be devastating.
So lazy is not a word that applies to a lot of people with varying stories about how their working life was changed for the worse. Sometimes life just happens and you deal with it as best you can. Those of you who are working hard and living a good life, I envy you, that was supposed to be me.
I rationalize my vote by a good economy.
That makes you complicit.
Carry on.
Carry on...
Don Trump has WAY LESS to do with "the economy" than anyone gives him credit for. Phony tax cuts and Tariffs...what a dipshit.
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/441071-juan-williams-the-reality-of-the-trump-economy?jwsource=cl
He's MAD full of shit. Stop defending him. Just stop.