Russia's Influence On The American Election

Halifax2TheMax

JC29856 said:

Smellyman said:

Link

We are past the point of innocent explanations on Trump and Russia

Imagine if the Clintons had done what the Trumps did on Russia.

Updated by Ezra Klein@ezraklein Jul 11, 2017, 11:41am EDT

Imagine Chelsea Clinton had taken Bill Clinton and campaign chair John Podesta to a meeting set up by a Chinese government intermediary who claimed to have damaging information about Donald Trump’s tax returns and said over email they were willing to share the information in a bid to defeat Trump. Imagine emails emerged in which Chelsea, Bill and Podesta were all told the meeting was with a lawyer for the Chinese government and “is part of China and its government’s support for Ms. Clinton.”

Imagine this information came out mere weeks after stories revealing a major Democratic funder, acting on the behest of prospective National Security Adviser Susan Rice, had been trying to work with Chinese hackers to steal copies of Trump’s tax returns.

Imagine, during all of this, that Hillary Clinton herself had gotten on a stage and begged the Chinese government to release Trump’s tax returns. “China, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the tax returns,” Clinton said in Florida. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

Imagine that these stories were not isolated. They came alongside dozens of strange meetings between Clinton campaign aides and Chinese staffers — contacts left off security clearance forms and “forgotten” during sworn congressional testimony — and were buttressed by Clinton herself lurching toward a strangely pro-China policy and an unusual, and repeatedly articulated, affection for China’s leader.

good question my guess...I'm guessing there would be an investigation and in the face of mountains of evidence the justice department would rule that laws were broken but there was "no intent" of criminality, therefore no prosecution.

Kinda like  Comet Pizza and Hillary's email servers? 

JC29856

Yesterday the buzz words were treason collusion
https://www.fec.gov/updates/foreign-nationals/
Today the buzz word is emoluments.

The Juggler

^
Tomorrow it could be "obstruction."


There are many roads that can lead to impeachment...

mfc2006

The Juggler said:

^
Tomorrow it could be "obstruction."


There are many roads that can lead to impeachment...

Yup. It's almost like a "Choose Your Own Impeachment" book. Which path will they take?

JC29856

The Juggler said:

^
Tomorrow it could be "obstruction."


There are many roads that can lead to impeachment...

new theory on Jr email release?

Halifax2TheMax

JC29856 said:

The Juggler said:

^
Tomorrow it could be "obstruction."


There are many roads that can lead to impeachment...

new theory on Jr email release?

It's not a conspiracy. Just amateur hour, bigly.

mrussel1

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe I'm new to this...but how is this treasonous? using information against your opponent, gathered from whomever, is not treason. treason is going against your own country. this is all, so far, just for personal political gain. unless it can be proven that russia somehow benefited from this exchange directly from the trump admin, which we have seen no evidence of yet, this is just a "gift". however, it does show how much this admin has lied through their stinking teeth this whole time.  

if hillary's campaign had been offered and received the PTAPE and released it, would that have been considered treason?

or just awesome?

If a foreign power provided the tape to the campaign, and the campaign knew the origin and released it (vs going to the FBI with the information), then yes they would be in the exact position DJT sits right now.  

Whether it's treason or not would be decided by the prosecutor and then jury.  From what we know so far, that's a hyperbolic word I would say.  It's certainly very UnAmerican and probably a violation of campaign finance laws to say the least.  And those are felonies.  

Which campaign finance laws were violated?

 52 USC 30121, 36 USC 510

mrussel1

Merkin Baller said:

Sure...... it's believable to think Trump didn't know about this meeting at all. 

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/884900796957171712

I know this isn't a smoking gun, but it sure it powerful in my eyes..
The publisher put in his email "This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin."
DTJ replies...Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some time and if it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?

To me, this important because DTJ wrote his response 15 MINUTES after receiving it, and seems not at all surprised that the Russians want to help Trump.  This calls into serious question (and we know the answer) that Trump Sr. was unaware of the dealings with the Russians.  If this was the first contact about such a subject, wouldn't he be taken aback?  Wouldn't he want to talk to the old man?  Of course.  Yet he rolls right into the meeting.  No one is that colossally stupid.  

JC29856

mrussel1 said:

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe I'm new to this...but how is this treasonous? using information against your opponent, gathered from whomever, is not treason. treason is going against your own country. this is all, so far, just for personal political gain. unless it can be proven that russia somehow benefited from this exchange directly from the trump admin, which we have seen no evidence of yet, this is just a "gift". however, it does show how much this admin has lied through their stinking teeth this whole time.  

if hillary's campaign had been offered and received the PTAPE and released it, would that have been considered treason?

or just awesome?

If a foreign power provided the tape to the campaign, and the campaign knew the origin and released it (vs going to the FBI with the information), then yes they would be in the exact position DJT sits right now.  

Whether it's treason or not would be decided by the prosecutor and then jury.  From what we know so far, that's a hyperbolic word I would say.  It's certainly very UnAmerican and probably a violation of campaign finance laws to say the least.  And those are felonies.  

Which campaign finance laws were violated?

 52 USC 30121, 36 USC 510

litigation would certainly be interesting. obstacles for prosecution would be is the promise of info a campaign configuration, establishing "value of contribution" and "campaign". What was Jrs capacity in his father's "campaign"? 

JC29856

can someone send this to Harvard law grad VP nominee Tim Kaine?

Some other critics of the administration, including Sen. Tim Kaine, a Virginia Democrat who was Clinton's running mate, have suggested the President's son might have engaged in treason by dealing with a foreign adversary -- but that is a possibility that many legal analysts reject.

Both Constitution and federal law covering treason provide the United States be actively at war with the foreign adversary for such a charge.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/07/11/politics/trump-jr-legal-problems/index.html

mrussel1

JC29856 said:

can someone send this to Harvard law grad VP nominee Tim Kaine?

Some other critics of the administration, including Sen. Tim Kaine, a Virginia Democrat who was Clinton's running mate, have suggested the President's son might have engaged in treason by dealing with a foreign adversary -- but that is a possibility that many legal analysts reject.

Both Constitution and federal law covering treason provide the United States be actively at war with the foreign adversary for such a charge.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/07/11/politics/trump-jr-legal-problems/index.html

Amazing how much time you are spending on the junior Senator from Virginia's statement.  
For someone that "vote swapped", you seem awfully defensive of Trump Jr.  

HughFreakingDillon

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe I'm new to this...but how is this treasonous? using information against your opponent, gathered from whomever, is not treason. treason is going against your own country. this is all, so far, just for personal political gain. unless it can be proven that russia somehow benefited from this exchange directly from the trump admin, which we have seen no evidence of yet, this is just a "gift". however, it does show how much this admin has lied through their stinking teeth this whole time.  

if hillary's campaign had been offered and received the PTAPE and released it, would that have been considered treason?

or just awesome?

If a foreign power provided the tape to the campaign, and the campaign knew the origin and released it (vs going to the FBI with the information), then yes they would be in the exact position DJT sits right now.  

Whether it's treason or not would be decided by the prosecutor and then jury.  From what we know so far, that's a hyperbolic word I would say.  It's certainly very UnAmerican and probably a violation of campaign finance laws to say the least.  And those are felonies.  

yes, but we have no proof yet that Putin got anything directly in return. if that can be proven, then fine. But to throw around the "treason" word so indiscriminately and this early, it's kinda, well, the same MO of the democrats the last few months: something happens, and let's go on tv and take it to the extreme before we have all the facts. it undermines the issue. if all of a sudden it's not treason, well, the drama is gone, and the issue disappears, like everything else so far. 

the democrats need to learn how to be patient. doing what they are doing is just going to keep shooting themselves in the foot. 

Merkin Baller

mrussel1 said:

JC29856 said:

can someone send this to Harvard law grad VP nominee Tim Kaine?

Some other critics of the administration, including Sen. Tim Kaine, a Virginia Democrat who was Clinton's running mate, have suggested the President's son might have engaged in treason by dealing with a foreign adversary -- but that is a possibility that many legal analysts reject.

Both Constitution and federal law covering treason provide the United States be actively at war with the foreign adversary for such a charge.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/07/11/politics/trump-jr-legal-problems/index.html

Amazing how much time you are spending on the junior Senator from Virginia's statement.  
For someone that "vote swapped", you seem awfully defensive of Trump Jr.  

It's almost as much time as he spent on Pizzagate.

JC29856

if you read the email chain that Jr released in order to beat the NYT to it, on June 3 Goldstone tells Jr, Emin has information on Hillary not the Russian lawyer (with ties to the Kremlin). also interesting is that in June, June 3rd, Jr along with everyone in the Trump campaign who is/are living and breathing to treasonously collude with Russia Russia Russia to subvert our elections says "later in the summer". when does summer officially begin? Jr was so anxious to get his hands on this treasonous collusionous info that on June 3rd he suggests "later in the summer".

Last night on Hannity Jr made a point twice to say, Kushner immediately walked out when it was obvious there was no information forthcoming and Manafort was on the phone. Obvious attempts to provide cover for Kushner.

mrussel1

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe I'm new to this...but how is this treasonous? using information against your opponent, gathered from whomever, is not treason. treason is going against your own country. this is all, so far, just for personal political gain. unless it can be proven that russia somehow benefited from this exchange directly from the trump admin, which we have seen no evidence of yet, this is just a "gift". however, it does show how much this admin has lied through their stinking teeth this whole time.  

if hillary's campaign had been offered and received the PTAPE and released it, would that have been considered treason?

or just awesome?

If a foreign power provided the tape to the campaign, and the campaign knew the origin and released it (vs going to the FBI with the information), then yes they would be in the exact position DJT sits right now.  

Whether it's treason or not would be decided by the prosecutor and then jury.  From what we know so far, that's a hyperbolic word I would say.  It's certainly very UnAmerican and probably a violation of campaign finance laws to say the least.  And those are felonies.  

yes, but we have no proof yet that Putin got anything directly in return. if that can be proven, then fine. But to throw around the "treason" word so indiscriminately and this early, it's kinda, well, the same MO of the democrats the last few months: something happens, and let's go on tv and take it to the extreme before we have all the facts. it undermines the issue. if all of a sudden it's not treason, well, the drama is gone, and the issue disappears, like everything else so far. 

the democrats need to learn how to be patient. doing what they are doing is just going to keep shooting themselves in the foot. 

The Russians don't have to receive anything in return for it to be illegal.  
I agree that treason is too strong of a word, but I'm not sure I agree with the strategy of being patient before going on TV and levying the charges.  The reason I say it is that the Democrats are immobilizing Trump on almost every part of his domestic and foreign strategies.  Whether you agree with it or not, attempting to de-legitimize his victory paralyzes his ability to implement any foreign policy change (at a minimum) and it also damages the health care bill, tax reform and other things.  

JC29856

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe I'm new to this...but how is this treasonous? using information against your opponent, gathered from whomever, is not treason. treason is going against your own country. this is all, so far, just for personal political gain. unless it can be proven that russia somehow benefited from this exchange directly from the trump admin, which we have seen no evidence of yet, this is just a "gift". however, it does show how much this admin has lied through their stinking teeth this whole time.  

if hillary's campaign had been offered and received the PTAPE and released it, would that have been considered treason?

or just awesome?

If a foreign power provided the tape to the campaign, and the campaign knew the origin and released it (vs going to the FBI with the information), then yes they would be in the exact position DJT sits right now.  

Whether it's treason or not would be decided by the prosecutor and then jury.  From what we know so far, that's a hyperbolic word I would say.  It's certainly very UnAmerican and probably a violation of campaign finance laws to say the least.  And those are felonies.  

yes, but we have no proof yet that Putin got anything directly in return. if that can be proven, then fine. But to throw around the "treason" word so indiscriminately and this early, it's kinda, well, the same MO of the democrats the last few months: something happens, and let's go on tv and take it to the extreme before we have all the facts. it undermines the issue. if all of a sudden it's not treason, well, the drama is gone, and the issue disappears, like everything else so far. 

the democrats need to learn how to be patient. doing what they are doing is just going to keep shooting themselves in the foot. 

The Russians don't have to receive anything in return for it to be illegal.  
I agree that treason is too strong of a word, but I'm not sure I agree with the strategy of being patient before going on TV and levying the charges.  The reason I say it is that the Democrats are immobilizing Trump on almost every part of his domestic and foreign strategies.  Whether you agree with it or not, attempting to de-legitimize his victory paralyzes his ability to implement any foreign policy change (at a minimum) and it also damages the health care bill, tax reform and other things.  

agree on foreign policy. Here at home I think that is the strategy, obstruct obstruct obstruct but I think it's more giving republicans a taste of their own medicine via turnabout is fair play. the strategy is directed at republicans since they really don't need democrats to push agenda. bog everything down. the longer term strategy is to squash any chance of a 2 term trump.

Halifax2TheMax

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe I'm new to this...but how is this treasonous? using information against your opponent, gathered from whomever, is not treason. treason is going against your own country. this is all, so far, just for personal political gain. unless it can be proven that russia somehow benefited from this exchange directly from the trump admin, which we have seen no evidence of yet, this is just a "gift". however, it does show how much this admin has lied through their stinking teeth this whole time.  

if hillary's campaign had been offered and received the PTAPE and released it, would that have been considered treason?

or just awesome?

If a foreign power provided the tape to the campaign, and the campaign knew the origin and released it (vs going to the FBI with the information), then yes they would be in the exact position DJT sits right now.  

Whether it's treason or not would be decided by the prosecutor and then jury.  From what we know so far, that's a hyperbolic word I would say.  It's certainly very UnAmerican and probably a violation of campaign finance laws to say the least.  And those are felonies.  

yes, but we have no proof yet that Putin got anything directly in return. if that can be proven, then fine. But to throw around the "treason" word so indiscriminately and this early, it's kinda, well, the same MO of the democrats the last few months: something happens, and let's go on tv and take it to the extreme before we have all the facts. it undermines the issue. if all of a sudden it's not treason, well, the drama is gone, and the issue disappears, like everything else so far. 

the democrats need to learn how to be patient. doing what they are doing is just going to keep shooting themselves in the foot. 

Nothing has "disappeared." Except maybe a few connected Russians and an old republican political operative. And for the conspiracy minded, Seth Rich. Hillary, Hillary, Hillary.

Halifax2TheMax

JC29856 said:

if you read the email chain that Jr released in order to beat the NYT to it, on June 3 Goldstone tells Jr, Emin has information on Hillary not the Russian lawyer (with ties to the Kremlin). also interesting is that in June, June 3rd, Jr along with everyone in the Trump campaign who is/are living and breathing to treasonously collude with Russia Russia Russia to subvert our elections says "later in the summer". when does summer officially begin? Jr was so anxious to get his hands on this treasonous collusionous info that on June 3rd he suggests "later in the summer".

Last night on Hannity Jr made a point twice to say, Kushner immediately walked out when it was obvious there was no information forthcoming and Manafort was on the phone. Obvious attempts to provide cover for Kushner.

You don't follow politics and campaigns very closely do you? "Late summer" may very well refer to the timing of the releasing of the "damaging" information on Hillary closer to the election so as to have the greatest polically damaging impact. Releasing the info in June would make it old news by October/November.

Remember the altered campaign plank. A signal that Trump could deliver and would deliver more upon assuming office. Except for those damn emails and recorded phone conversations because, hey, who listens in on the Russian ambassadors phone conversations anyway?

Halifax2TheMax

JC29856 said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

maybe I'm new to this...but how is this treasonous? using information against your opponent, gathered from whomever, is not treason. treason is going against your own country. this is all, so far, just for personal political gain. unless it can be proven that russia somehow benefited from this exchange directly from the trump admin, which we have seen no evidence of yet, this is just a "gift". however, it does show how much this admin has lied through their stinking teeth this whole time.  

if hillary's campaign had been offered and received the PTAPE and released it, would that have been considered treason?

or just awesome?

If a foreign power provided the tape to the campaign, and the campaign knew the origin and released it (vs going to the FBI with the information), then yes they would be in the exact position DJT sits right now.  

Whether it's treason or not would be decided by the prosecutor and then jury.  From what we know so far, that's a hyperbolic word I would say.  It's certainly very UnAmerican and probably a violation of campaign finance laws to say the least.  And those are felonies.  

yes, but we have no proof yet that Putin got anything directly in return. if that can be proven, then fine. But to throw around the "treason" word so indiscriminately and this early, it's kinda, well, the same MO of the democrats the last few months: something happens, and let's go on tv and take it to the extreme before we have all the facts. it undermines the issue. if all of a sudden it's not treason, well, the drama is gone, and the issue disappears, like everything else so far. 

the democrats need to learn how to be patient. doing what they are doing is just going to keep shooting themselves in the foot. 

The Russians don't have to receive anything in return for it to be illegal.  
I agree that treason is too strong of a word, but I'm not sure I agree with the strategy of being patient before going on TV and levying the charges.  The reason I say it is that the Democrats are immobilizing Trump on almost every part of his domestic and foreign strategies.  Whether you agree with it or not, attempting to de-legitimize his victory paralyzes his ability to implement any foreign policy change (at a minimum) and it also damages the health care bill, tax reform and other things.  

agree on foreign policy. Here at home I think that is the strategy, obstruct obstruct obstruct but I think it's more giving republicans a taste of their own medicine via turnabout is fair play. the strategy is directed at republicans since they really don't need democrats to push agenda. bog everything down. the longer term strategy is to squash any chance of a 2 term trump.

How many indictments were handed down in during the Obama Administration against Obama Administration officials for violation of the law?

mrussel1

Halifax2TheMax said:

JC29856 said:

if you read the email chain that Jr released in order to beat the NYT to it, on June 3 Goldstone tells Jr, Emin has information on Hillary not the Russian lawyer (with ties to the Kremlin). also interesting is that in June, June 3rd, Jr along with everyone in the Trump campaign who is/are living and breathing to treasonously collude with Russia Russia Russia to subvert our elections says "later in the summer". when does summer officially begin? Jr was so anxious to get his hands on this treasonous collusionous info that on June 3rd he suggests "later in the summer".

Last night on Hannity Jr made a point twice to say, Kushner immediately walked out when it was obvious there was no information forthcoming and Manafort was on the phone. Obvious attempts to provide cover for Kushner.

You don't follow politics and campaigns very closely do you? "Late summer" may very well refer to the timing of the releasing of the "damaging" information on Hillary closer to the election so as to have the greatest polically damaging impact. Releasing the info in June would make it old news by October/November.

Remember the altered campaign plank. A signal that Trump could deliver and would deliver more upon assuming office. Except for those damn emails and recorded phone conversations because, hey, who listens in on the Russian ambassadors phone conversations anyway?

I love the defense that it's fine because the Russian had nothing to provide..  That seems to be the second angle that the Trump team is trying.  
I guess they would be supportive of not prosecuting terrorists that were caught during the plot planning stage.  I mean, they hadn't committed the terrorism yet, right?  Seems a bit premature.