The pizza idiot came out slowly with his hands up when police arrived.
The ohio state idiot was running around with a butcher knife trying to stab people.
You're telling me he had his hands up, and they didn't shoot him? That doesn't sound like SOP. Why was he even given the opportunity to surrender himself?
Was he actively trying to hurt people when the police arrived? You are really reaching here...
Since when did this matter?
Lunatic walked into a family establishment in the middle of the afternoon, pointed a gun at an employee, and fired off a round. I thought that was grounds for summary execution on the spot in this country?
The pizza idiot came out slowly with his hands up when police arrived.
The ohio state idiot was running around with a butcher knife trying to stab people.
You're telling me he had his hands up, and they didn't shoot him? That doesn't sound like SOP. Why was he even given the opportunity to surrender himself?
It's because he is white. There. He gave the wink and secret hand gesture and then he and the police went out and had a steak dinner together before they booked him in the secret cell hidden in the nearest Trump Tower.
In fact, I'm not even sure we the cops didn't let him stab a patron with a dinner fork before they went out to dinner ...
The pizza idiot came out slowly with his hands up when police arrived.
The ohio state idiot was running around with a butcher knife trying to stab people.
You're telling me he had his hands up, and they didn't shoot him? That doesn't sound like SOP. Why was he even given the opportunity to surrender himself?
Was he actively trying to hurt people when the police arrived? You are really reaching here...
Since when did this matter?
Lunatic walked into a family establishment in the middle of the afternoon, pointed a gun at an employee, and fired off a round. I thought that was grounds for summary execution on the spot in this country?
The mainstream media has lead you to believe that.
The pizza idiot came out slowly with his hands up when police arrived.
The ohio state idiot was running around with a butcher knife trying to stab people.
You're telling me he had his hands up, and they didn't shoot him? That doesn't sound like SOP. Why was he even given the opportunity to surrender himself?
Was he actively trying to hurt people when the police arrived? You are really reaching here...
Race is always a factor to consider. The hypothetical to ask yourself is that would the pizza guy situation have been different if he was black.
The pizza idiot came out slowly with his hands up when police arrived.
The ohio state idiot was running around with a butcher knife trying to stab people.
You're telling me he had his hands up, and they didn't shoot him? That doesn't sound like SOP. Why was he even given the opportunity to surrender himself?
Was he actively trying to hurt people when the police arrived? You are really reaching here...
Race is always a factor to consider. The hypothetical to ask yourself is that would the pizza guy situation have been different if he was black.
Sure. We can speculate and hypothesize. Based on what we actually know we know that both were committing crimes, that one was actively committing violence against others, while the other was threatening violence, and we know that one was in the middle of slashing and stabbing people as the cops arrived, while the other immediately complied and surrendered. It is not unexpected that the outcomes of those incidents were different since the circumstances were different.
But if we're doing hypotheticals, then sure, in the pizza case, if George Zimmerman was the cop and Trayvon Martin was the dude with the gun in the pizza shop, then I'm betting the cop shoots the perp.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
The pizza idiot came out slowly with his hands up when police arrived.
The ohio state idiot was running around with a butcher knife trying to stab people.
You're telling me he had his hands up, and they didn't shoot him? That doesn't sound like SOP. Why was he even given the opportunity to surrender himself?
Was he actively trying to hurt people when the police arrived? You are really reaching here...
Race is always a factor to consider. The hypothetical to ask yourself is that would the pizza guy situation have been different if he was black.
Sure. We can speculate and hypothesize. Based on what we actually know we know that both were committing crimes, that one was actively committing violence against others, while the other was threatening violence, and we know that one was in the middle of slashing and stabbing people as the cops arrived, while the other immediately complied and surrendered. It is not unexpected that the outcomes of those incidents were different since the circumstances were different.
But if we're doing hypotheticals, then sure, in the pizza case, if George Zimmerman was the cop and Trayvon Martin was the dude with the gun in the pizza shop, then I'm betting the cop shoots the perp.
You don't have to use specific people though. If the pizza guy was black, there would've been a higher likelihood that cops would've shot him.
The pizza idiot came out slowly with his hands up when police arrived.
The ohio state idiot was running around with a butcher knife trying to stab people.
You're telling me he had his hands up, and they didn't shoot him? That doesn't sound like SOP. Why was he even given the opportunity to surrender himself?
Was he actively trying to hurt people when the police arrived? You are really reaching here...
Race is always a factor to consider. The hypothetical to ask yourself is that would the pizza guy situation have been different if he was black.
Sure. We can speculate and hypothesize. Based on what we actually know we know that both were committing crimes, that one was actively committing violence against others, while the other was threatening violence, and we know that one was in the middle of slashing and stabbing people as the cops arrived, while the other immediately complied and surrendered. It is not unexpected that the outcomes of those incidents were different since the circumstances were different.
But if we're doing hypotheticals, then sure, in the pizza case, if George Zimmerman was the cop and Trayvon Martin was the dude with the gun in the pizza shop, then I'm betting the cop shoots the perp.
You don't have to use specific people though. If the pizza guy was black, there would've been a higher likelihood that cops would've shot him.
Even so your question was "would it have been different?" You just pointed to a higher likelihood of getting shot, but that doesn't mean it would have been different. This tangent started because of some sort of false equivalency proffered by CM. He based the dissimilar outcomes solely on race completely ignoring the myriad actual, important differences between the two cases.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
That's it. It's a burkini, as it says in the link. Personally, I find this much more beautiful than some lady with overdone hair in a bikini. But really, any woman who would be in a contest like this should be ashamed of herself.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
The pizza idiot came out slowly with his hands up when police arrived.
The ohio state idiot was running around with a butcher knife trying to stab people.
You're telling me he had his hands up, and they didn't shoot him? That doesn't sound like SOP. Why was he even given the opportunity to surrender himself?
It's because he is white. There. He gave the wink and secret hand gesture and then he and the police went out and had a steak dinner together before they booked him in the secret cell hidden in the nearest Trump Tower.
In fact, I'm not even sure we the cops didn't let him stab a patron with a dinner fork before they went out to dinner ...
The gun was empty and the man was trying to commit "suicide by cop" — Officer Mader didn't shoot. Police get trained on de-escalation, but in that moment Mader was leaning more on training from the Marine Corps and experience in Afghanistan. That knowledge can be a key difference between police officers with military backgrounds and those without. The Marines had taught him to wait for clear hostile intent before opening fire, something he didn't see from Williams. "For me, it wasn't enough to kind of take someone's life because they're holding a gun that's not pointed at me," Mader said.
In Afghanistan, the rules of engagement sometimes were stricter than use-of-force rules for civilian police in America.
But then Mader's backup arrived. All they knew is that the dispatcher said there was a weapon. Mader remembers that Williams walked toward them as they drove up and got out of their cars. "Their weapons are drawn, and they're screaming at him to drop the gun," Mader said. "At that point he starts waving the gun, back and forth between us." One of the officers fired four shots, and a bullet hit Williams in the side of the head, leaving him on the pavement.
The pizza idiot came out slowly with his hands up when police arrived.
The ohio state idiot was running around with a butcher knife trying to stab people.
You're telling me he had his hands up, and they didn't shoot him? That doesn't sound like SOP. Why was he even given the opportunity to surrender himself?
It's because he is white. There. He gave the wink and secret hand gesture and then he and the police went out and had a steak dinner together before they booked him in the secret cell hidden in the nearest Trump Tower.
In fact, I'm not even sure we the cops didn't let him stab a patron with a dinner fork before they went out to dinner ...
The gun was empty and the man was trying to commit "suicide by cop" — Officer Mader didn't shoot. Police get trained on de-escalation, but in that moment Mader was leaning more on training from the Marine Corps and experience in Afghanistan. That knowledge can be a key difference between police officers with military backgrounds and those without. The Marines had taught him to wait for clear hostile intent before opening fire, something he didn't see from Williams. "For me, it wasn't enough to kind of take someone's life because they're holding a gun that's not pointed at me," Mader said.
In Afghanistan, the rules of engagement sometimes were stricter than use-of-force rules for civilian police in America.
But then Mader's backup arrived. All they knew is that the dispatcher said there was a weapon. Mader remembers that Williams walked toward them as they drove up and got out of their cars. "Their weapons are drawn, and they're screaming at him to drop the gun," Mader said. "At that point he starts waving the gun, back and forth between us." One of the officers fired four shots, and a bullet hit Williams in the side of the head, leaving him on the pavement.
Me thinks there may possibly be more to this story. From the article: "But in Weirton, officials said it wasn't just Mader's failure to shoot that got him fired. City Manager Travis Blosser said other reasons included "illegal searches in a vehicle, to the use of profanity with citizens and then also contaminating a crime scene of a potential homicide investigation."
I'm not sure what the argument is, other than white dude is alive and black dude is dead.... Is the argument here that the pizza-dude should have been shot, or the knife-dude should not have been and instead allowed to keep stabbing people? In your view, where did the cops go wrong? Shooting someone stabbing people, or not shooting someone with a gun?
Yes, but in your article you clearly missed that the student was wearing a shirt with a European flag logo on it. Italy I think? Which clearly makes him open game for police.
Did you watch the video and notice that instead of running and hiding, all the students just formed a circle and started recording with their phones? Fucking weird and creepy, the new generation is.
Did you watch the video and notice that instead of running and hiding, all the students just formed a circle and started recording with their phones? Fucking weird and creepy, the new generation is.
Or maybe they didn't perceive him as much of a threat.
I'm not sure what the argument is, other than white dude is alive and black dude is dead.... Is the argument here that the pizza-dude should have been shot, or the knife-dude should not have been and instead allowed to keep stabbing people? In your view, where did the cops go wrong? Shooting someone stabbing people, or not shooting someone with a gun?
These discussions go sideways often because people have a hard time talking about race and racism.
Did you watch the video and notice that instead of running and hiding, all the students just formed a circle and started recording with their phones? Fucking weird and creepy, the new generation is.
Everyone wants to be famous. It is actually pretty creepy. Isn't people finding entertainment in the misery of others one of the signs of societal collapse? Akin to the gladiators of Rome?
I'm not sure what the argument is, other than white dude is alive and black dude is dead.... Is the argument here that the pizza-dude should have been shot, or the knife-dude should not have been and instead allowed to keep stabbing people? In your view, where did the cops go wrong? Shooting someone stabbing people, or not shooting someone with a gun?
These discussions go sideways often because people have a hard time talking about race and racism.
These discussions also go sideways when one tries to interject race when it likely wasn't the relevant or deciding factor in the outcome as CM did on the previous page.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I'm not sure what the argument is, other than white dude is alive and black dude is dead.... Is the argument here that the pizza-dude should have been shot, or the knife-dude should not have been and instead allowed to keep stabbing people? In your view, where did the cops go wrong? Shooting someone stabbing people, or not shooting someone with a gun?
These discussions go sideways often because people have a hard time talking about race and racism.
And sometimes because people look to plant their flag where it has no relevance.
I'm not sure what the argument is, other than white dude is alive and black dude is dead.... Is the argument here that the pizza-dude should have been shot, or the knife-dude should not have been and instead allowed to keep stabbing people? In your view, where did the cops go wrong? Shooting someone stabbing people, or not shooting someone with a gun?
These discussions go sideways often because people have a hard time talking about race and racism.
And sometimes because people look to plant their flag where it has no relevance.
Race is always relevant in every interaction. Sometimes less, sometimes more relevant, but it's always there. Moreso in high stress interactions, too.
Did you watch the video and notice that instead of running and hiding, all the students just formed a circle and started recording with their phones? Fucking weird and creepy, the new generation is.
Everyone wants to be famous. It is actually pretty creepy. Isn't people finding entertainment in the misery of others one of the signs of societal collapse? Akin to the gladiators of Rome?
People have always gathered around someone acting up, especially in school.
I'm not sure what the argument is, other than white dude is alive and black dude is dead.... Is the argument here that the pizza-dude should have been shot, or the knife-dude should not have been and instead allowed to keep stabbing people? In your view, where did the cops go wrong? Shooting someone stabbing people, or not shooting someone with a gun?
These discussions go sideways often because people have a hard time talking about race and racism.
These discussions also go sideways when one tries to interject race when it likely wasn't the relevant or deciding factor in the outcome as CM did on the previous page.
Wow, a lot of police apologists in here. Black man gets shot & killed by police, no problems there - he had it coming. White man walks out of a similar situation alive, time and time again, suddenly we need to examine every detail and try to justify it. Race is part of it, yes. So is our militarized police force. And excessive gun culture. There's a lot of factors that go into every one of these incidents that contributes to the outcome, which somehow inevitably leads to the reoccurring headline: "black man shot by police officer, again".
One question might be: why are the police killing so many black men? A better question might be: why are we letting the police kill so many people at all?
When we live in a world where the rules of engagement are more strict for a Marine in Afghanistan, then they are for a cop in here in America, that's a big problem.
I think everyone has acknowledged the racial bias evident in policing work.
Its just funny that some try so hard to make race an issue when it isn't. Take color of skin out of the equation: one idiot is driving into people and slashing at them with a knife and being uncooperative... another idiot has a gun, released a round and shits his pants when the cops come being completely cooperative.
I'm not sure what the argument is, other than white dude is alive and black dude is dead.... Is the argument here that the pizza-dude should have been shot, or the knife-dude should not have been and instead allowed to keep stabbing people? In your view, where did the cops go wrong? Shooting someone stabbing people, or not shooting someone with a gun?
These discussions go sideways often because people have a hard time talking about race and racism.
These discussions also go sideways when one tries to interject race when it likely wasn't the relevant or deciding factor in the outcome as CM did on the previous page.
Wow, a lot of police apologists in here. Black man gets shot & killed by police, no problems there - he had it coming. White man walks out of a similar situation alive, time and time again, suddenly we need to examine every detail and try to justify it. Race is part of it, yes. So is our militarized police force. And excessive gun culture. There's a lot of factors that go into every one of these incidents that contributes to the outcome, which somehow inevitably leads to the reoccurring headline: "black man shot by police officer, again".
One question might be: why are the police killing so many black men? A better question might be: why are we letting the police kill so many people at all?
When we live in a world where the rules of engagement are more strict for a Marine in Afghanistan, then they are for a cop in here in America, that's a big problem.
Sure, I'm an apologist. I'm an apologist for a cop who properly did his job and likely saved lives. You made an indefensible comparison between to very dissimilar events and got called on it. The cop who shot the mass attacker in Ohio did his job, and saved lives. In the process he had to kill a deranged dude. The community is better off, and the cop should be praised for his quick action. That doesn't mean all shootings by cops should be rewarded, and cops should be held to a very high standard. But you picked the wrong cart to hitch your horse to with this one. Just like the Michael Brown BLM apologists did. It doesn't help your case. There are far better examples of police abuse out there that would be relevant and important to discuss. By lumping this situation into your big bucket of evil white cops killing poor defenseless black men you devalue your position.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I'm not sure what the argument is, other than white dude is alive and black dude is dead.... Is the argument here that the pizza-dude should have been shot, or the knife-dude should not have been and instead allowed to keep stabbing people? In your view, where did the cops go wrong? Shooting someone stabbing people, or not shooting someone with a gun?
These discussions go sideways often because people have a hard time talking about race and racism.
These discussions also go sideways when one tries to interject race when it likely wasn't the relevant or deciding factor in the outcome as CM did on the previous page.
Wow, a lot of police apologists in here. Black man gets shot & killed by police, no problems there - he had it coming. White man walks out of a similar situation alive, time and time again, suddenly we need to examine every detail and try to justify it. Race is part of it, yes. So is our militarized police force. And excessive gun culture. There's a lot of factors that go into every one of these incidents that contributes to the outcome, which somehow inevitably leads to the reoccurring headline: "black man shot by police officer, again".
One question might be: why are the police killing so many black men? A better question might be: why are we letting the police kill so many people at all?
When we live in a world where the rules of engagement are more strict for a Marine in Afghanistan, then they are for a cop in here in America, that's a big problem.
Sure, I'm an apologist. I'm an apologist for a cop who properly did his job and likely saved lives. You made an indefensible comparison between to very dissimilar events and got called on it. The cop who shot the mass attacker in Ohio did his job, and saved lives. In the process he had to kill a deranged dude. The community is better off, and the cop should be praised for his quick action. That doesn't mean all shootings by cops should be rewarded, and cops should be held to a very high standard. But you picked the wrong cart to hitch your horse to with this one. Just like the Michael Brown BLM apologists did. It doesn't help your case. There are far better examples of police abuse out there that would be relevant and important to discuss. By lumping this situation into your big bucket of evil white cops killing poor defenseless black men you devalue your position.
I'm not sure what the argument is, other than white dude is alive and black dude is dead.... Is the argument here that the pizza-dude should have been shot, or the knife-dude should not have been and instead allowed to keep stabbing people? In your view, where did the cops go wrong? Shooting someone stabbing people, or not shooting someone with a gun?
These discussions go sideways often because people have a hard time talking about race and racism.
These discussions also go sideways when one tries to interject race when it likely wasn't the relevant or deciding factor in the outcome as CM did on the previous page.
Wow, a lot of police apologists in here. Black man gets shot & killed by police, no problems there - he had it coming. White man walks out of a similar situation alive, time and time again, suddenly we need to examine every detail and try to justify it. Race is part of it, yes. So is our militarized police force. And excessive gun culture. There's a lot of factors that go into every one of these incidents that contributes to the outcome, which somehow inevitably leads to the reoccurring headline: "black man shot by police officer, again".
One question might be: why are the police killing so many black men? A better question might be: why are we letting the police kill so many people at all?
When we live in a world where the rules of engagement are more strict for a Marine in Afghanistan, then they are for a cop in here in America, that's a big problem.
Sure, I'm an apologist. I'm an apologist for a cop who properly did his job and likely saved lives. You made an indefensible comparison between to very dissimilar events and got called on it. The cop who shot the mass attacker in Ohio did his job, and saved lives. In the process he had to kill a deranged dude. The community is better off, and the cop should be praised for his quick action. That doesn't mean all shootings by cops should be rewarded, and cops should be held to a very high standard. But you picked the wrong cart to hitch your horse to with this one. Just like the Michael Brown BLM apologists did. It doesn't help your case. There are far better examples of police abuse out there that would be relevant and important to discuss. By lumping this situation into your big bucket of evil white cops killing poor defenseless black men you devalue your position.
Regardless of merit... cops will never win with some people. Ironic really... telling others they don't see the problem for what it really is while at the same time losing objectivity in the most clear cut cases.
I'm not sure what the argument is, other than white dude is alive and black dude is dead.... Is the argument here that the pizza-dude should have been shot, or the knife-dude should not have been and instead allowed to keep stabbing people? In your view, where did the cops go wrong? Shooting someone stabbing people, or not shooting someone with a gun?
These discussions go sideways often because people have a hard time talking about race and racism.
These discussions also go sideways when one tries to interject race when it likely wasn't the relevant or deciding factor in the outcome as CM did on the previous page.
Wow, a lot of police apologists in here. Black man gets shot & killed by police, no problems there - he had it coming. White man walks out of a similar situation alive, time and time again, suddenly we need to examine every detail and try to justify it. Race is part of it, yes. So is our militarized police force. And excessive gun culture. There's a lot of factors that go into every one of these incidents that contributes to the outcome, which somehow inevitably leads to the reoccurring headline: "black man shot by police officer, again".
One question might be: why are the police killing so many black men? A better question might be: why are we letting the police kill so many people at all?
When we live in a world where the rules of engagement are more strict for a Marine in Afghanistan, then they are for a cop in here in America, that's a big problem.
You seem to think there was a bias between the 2 scenarios brought up. So I'll ask again. Do you think the cops should have let the guy who was actively stabbing people to continue to stab people, or should they have shot the gun with a gun who was "arrested without incident" (which usually means he was no longer shooting and waving a gun around by the time police arrived)? Which one was not right?
Comments
Lunatic walked into a family establishment in the middle of the afternoon, pointed a gun at an employee, and fired off a round. I thought that was grounds for summary execution on the spot in this country?
In fact, I'm not even sure we the cops didn't let him stab a patron with a dinner fork before they went out to dinner ...
But if we're doing hypotheticals, then sure, in the pizza case, if George Zimmerman was the cop and Trayvon Martin was the dude with the gun in the pizza shop, then I'm betting the cop shoots the perp.
The gun was empty and the man was trying to commit "suicide by cop" — Officer Mader didn't shoot. Police get trained on de-escalation, but in that moment Mader was leaning more on training from the Marine Corps and experience in Afghanistan. That knowledge can be a key difference between police officers with military backgrounds and those without. The Marines had taught him to wait for clear hostile intent before opening fire, something he didn't see from Williams. "For me, it wasn't enough to kind of take someone's life because they're holding a gun that's not pointed at me," Mader said.
In Afghanistan, the rules of engagement sometimes were stricter than use-of-force rules for civilian police in America.
But then Mader's backup arrived. All they knew is that the dispatcher said there was a weapon. Mader remembers that Williams walked toward them as they drove up and got out of their cars. "Their weapons are drawn, and they're screaming at him to drop the gun," Mader said. "At that point he starts waving the gun, back and forth between us." One of the officers fired four shots, and a bullet hit Williams in the side of the head, leaving him on the pavement.
From the article: "But in Weirton, officials said it wasn't just Mader's failure to shoot that got him fired. City Manager Travis Blosser said other reasons included "illegal searches in a vehicle, to the use of profanity with citizens and then also contaminating a crime scene of a potential homicide investigation."
So about the narrative that a white person waving a knife around would not be shot...
Is the argument here that the pizza-dude should have been shot, or the knife-dude should not have been and instead allowed to keep stabbing people? In your view, where did the cops go wrong? Shooting someone stabbing people, or not shooting someone with a gun?
One question might be: why are the police killing so many black men?
A better question might be: why are we letting the police kill so many people at all?
When we live in a world where the rules of engagement are more strict for a Marine in Afghanistan, then they are for a cop in here in America, that's a big problem.
Its just funny that some try so hard to make race an issue when it isn't. Take color of skin out of the equation: one idiot is driving into people and slashing at them with a knife and being uncooperative... another idiot has a gun, released a round and shits his pants when the cops come being completely cooperative.
So I'll ask again. Do you think the cops should have let the guy who was actively stabbing people to continue to stab people, or should they have shot the gun with a gun who was "arrested without incident" (which usually means he was no longer shooting and waving a gun around by the time police arrived)? Which one was not right?