Kaepernick

PJ_Soul

mcgruff10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Obama's second inauguration. 

This should end the conversation and prove that this whole thing is nonsense. 

Obviously it doesn't.

mcgruff10

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Obama's second inauguration. 

This should end the conversation and prove that this whole thing is nonsense. 

Obviously it doesn't.

Fake outrage as usual. 

mrussel1

Obama should check his white privilege at the door and get woke.  

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 

Maybe before Trump nobody cared - probably never occurred to anyone back in 2012. Things have actually changed quite a bit since then. And I'm not sure calling it a "racist flag" is exactly right. "Problematic" or something might be better? For now, anyway. After this, a lot more white nationalists will probably start using it!

seems a bit odd if "nobody cared" prior to trump. does that not say something to you?

Yes, that America is fucked thanks to Trump. And that perspectives change through time.

over courses of decades, yes. but to go from:

2012: ok to hang behind the first black president on his inauguration
2016: we can't put it on a running shoe

that's not a change of perspective. that's a change of who's (or more significantly, who's NOT) in power. 

F Me In The Brain

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 

Maybe before Trump nobody cared - probably never occurred to anyone back in 2012. Things have actually changed quite a bit since then. And I'm not sure calling it a "racist flag" is exactly right. "Problematic" or something might be better? For now, anyway. After this, a lot more white nationalists will probably start using it!

seems a bit odd if "nobody cared" prior to trump. does that not say something to you?

Yes, that America is fucked thanks to Trump. And that perspectives change through time.

over courses of decades, yes. but to go from:

2012: ok to hang behind the first black president on his inauguration
2016: we can't put it on a running shoe

that's not a change of perspective. that's a change of who's (or more significantly, who's NOT) in power. 

Pssst -- It is 2019. 

dignin

HughFreakingDillon said:

Obama's second inauguration. 

What's your point? Flying flags in government from a historical perspective is far different than a private company choosing what they want to put on their product. Nobody is saying we should pretend the flag doesn't exist.

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 

Maybe before Trump nobody cared - probably never occurred to anyone back in 2012. Things have actually changed quite a bit since then. And I'm not sure calling it a "racist flag" is exactly right. "Problematic" or something might be better? For now, anyway. After this, a lot more white nationalists will probably start using it!

seems a bit odd if "nobody cared" prior to trump. does that not say something to you?

Yes, that America is fucked thanks to Trump. And that perspectives change through time.

over courses of decades, yes. but to go from:

2012: ok to hang behind the first black president on his inauguration
2016: we can't put it on a running shoe

that's not a change of perspective. that's a change of who's (or more significantly, who's NOT) in power. 

I really really disagree with this (and add 3 years to your point). Normally you might be right, but not in times when extremes are in play. But not now. Things have RADICALLY changed since Trump gained office - surely you will acknowledge that. Some things change everything very quickly. Wars, depressions, revolutions... and when fascist sexual predators win the White House and empowers all the racists and assholes in the country, and calls the free press enemies of the people.

PJ_Soul

dignin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Obama's second inauguration. 

What's your point? Flying flags in government from a historical perspective is far different than a private company choosing what they want to put on their product. Nobody is saying we should pretend the flag doesn't exist.

That too. Same applies to Scruffy's joke(??) about the civil war reenactment.

mrussel1

dignin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Obama's second inauguration. 

What's your point? Flying flags in government from a historical perspective is far different than a private company choosing what they want to put on their product. Nobody is saying we should pretend the flag doesn't exist.

I think the point is clear.  No one is arguing that Nike can't/shouldn't make the decision they want to make.  I personally don't care about Nike's actual decision, although I'm sure they lost some bucks on the sunk cost of the whole thing, but it's probably just a rounding error on the P&L.  

The point is though, was it not a symbol of racism in 2012?  Nothing about the past has changed since then.  We didn't learn anything new about Betsy Ross or the founding fathers that we didn't know in 2012.  Yet Obama had no issue standing in front of the flag.  But now it's a symbol of a racist time.  That just seems so odd.  Now if you say it's because of the white nationalists adopting it, then it gets back to my whole argument that we are letting them win by folding on the issue.  

PJ_Soul

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Obama's second inauguration. 

What's your point? Flying flags in government from a historical perspective is far different than a private company choosing what they want to put on their product. Nobody is saying we should pretend the flag doesn't exist.

I think the point is clear.  No one is arguing that Nike can't/shouldn't make the decision they want to make.  I personally don't care about Nike's actual decision, although I'm sure they lost some bucks on the sunk cost of the whole thing, but it's probably just a rounding error on the P&L.  

The point is though, was it not a symbol of racism in 2012?  Nothing about the past has changed since then.  We didn't learn anything new about Betsy Ross or the founding fathers that we didn't know in 2012.  Yet Obama had no issue standing in front of the flag.  But now it's a symbol of a racist time.  That just seems so odd.  Now if you say it's because of the white nationalists adopting it, then it gets back to my whole argument that we are letting them win by folding on the issue.  

It may well have been a symbol for racists in 2012. But in 2012 American society wasn't where it is now and most wouldn't have been aware if it was. Again, things have changed since then. The past never changes. That is nobody's argument. What changes is how we view the past, and perceptions about what it means now. THINGS CHANGE.

jeffbr

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 

I don't see one of those flags, myself.  

it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag. 

I know.  I don't see a racist flag behind Obama.  And my guess is he didn't either.  

It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.

Is the Betsy Ross flag racist? Nike listened to Colin Kaepernick, but hate group monitors say no, conservatives push back.

 The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes. "We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."

The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.

PJ_Soul

jeffbr said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 

I don't see one of those flags, myself.  

it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag. 

I know.  I don't see a racist flag behind Obama.  And my guess is he didn't either.  

It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.

Is the Betsy Ross flag racist? Nike listened to Colin Kaepernick, but hate group monitors say no, conservatives push back.

 The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes. "We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."

The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.

"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male) American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’ symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”

mcgruff10

jeffbr said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 

I don't see one of those flags, myself.  

it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag. 

I know.  I don't see a racist flag behind Obama.  And my guess is he didn't either.  

It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.

Is the Betsy Ross flag racist? Nike listened to Colin Kaepernick, but hate group monitors say no, conservatives push back.

 The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes. "We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."

The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.

Second mic drop. 

HughFreakingDillon

dignin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Obama's second inauguration. 

What's your point? Flying flags in government from a historical perspective is far different than a private company choosing what they want to put on their product. Nobody is saying we should pretend the flag doesn't exist.

that's funny, since you just stated the exact same argument folks had for keeping monuments and confederate flags from the civil war era in government. 

"historical perspective". 

PJ_Soul

I don't understand wtf faux outrage is supposed to be... I would think that means it is literally fake, completely contrived, for some ulterior motive. Is that what you're claiming some people are reacting with? That they are literally faking their feelings about this just to... what? Stir up the right? Stir up the left? Both? I feel like their sentiments about it are real, not faked. If they want their feelings about it to be heard by others, that doesn't make it fake, does it?

mrussel1

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 

I don't see one of those flags, myself.  

it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag. 

I know.  I don't see a racist flag behind Obama.  And my guess is he didn't either.  

It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.

Is the Betsy Ross flag racist? Nike listened to Colin Kaepernick, but hate group monitors say no, conservatives push back.

 The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes. "We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."

The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.

"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male) American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’ symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”

So every time a hate group tries to take something from us, we need to let them have it and move on.  No thanks.  

PJ_Soul

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 

I don't see one of those flags, myself.  

it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag. 

I know.  I don't see a racist flag behind Obama.  And my guess is he didn't either.  

It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.

Is the Betsy Ross flag racist? Nike listened to Colin Kaepernick, but hate group monitors say no, conservatives push back.

 The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes. "We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."

The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.

Second mic drop. 

"To be clear, the Betsy Ross flag is not nearly as recognizable a symbol of white supremacy as, say, the Confederate flag. “This is not a flag I see waving at events or seeing displayed on their websites,” Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow at the Center of Extremism at the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), tells Rolling Stone. It has, however, been associated with the Patriot Movement, an anti-government, extremist right-wing movement that encompasses smaller fringe movements such as the militia movement, the sovereign citizen movement, and the tax protest movement. (Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh was highly influenced by militia movement ideology.) The militia movement, says Pitcavage, is the youngest of the three, dating from about the mid-1990s, and has been using the Betsy Ross flag, among other Revolutionary War-era symbols, since its inception. “Because they view themselves as analogous to American revolutionaries, they love to use old flags from that era,” he says, citing the Revolutionary War-era “don’t tread on me” flag as another example. The Betsy Ross flag is apparently so closely identified with the Patriot Movement that until this morning, it was the main image of its Wikipedia page, according to reporter Charles Robinson. (It has since been removed, but is viewable on a cached version of the webpage.)

While the white supremacist movement and the Patriot movement are not synonymous, there is some overlap between the two. The flag has also been used or reinterpreted by groups like the American Identity Movement (formerly Identity Evropa) and Patriot Front, both of which have been classified as hate groups by the SPLC and were founded within the past few years. Pitcavage says that the Knight Riders, a now-defunct West Virginia-based Ku Klux Klan group, at one point required that every chapter of the group had to use either the Confederate flag or the Betsy Ross flag to cover the “altar” during meetings with Klan rituals; most recently, the Betsy Ross flag was depicted in a 2018 flier allegedly distributed in upstate New York for the United Northern & Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which depicts a Klansman on horseback carrying a Confederate flag in one hand and a Betsy Ross flag in another. Such groups “[brand] themselves in the trappings of Americana with the aim of creating a more marketable image for their dedication to creating an all-white nation,” says Hankes."

jeffbr

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 

I don't see one of those flags, myself.  

it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag. 

I know.  I don't see a racist flag behind Obama.  And my guess is he didn't either.  

It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.

Is the Betsy Ross flag racist? Nike listened to Colin Kaepernick, but hate group monitors say no, conservatives push back.

 The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes. "We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."

The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.

"It has been used by some extremist groups as a means of telegraphing a return to more traditionalist (re: predominantly white and male) American ideals. “Under the guise of ‘heritage,’ symbols of early U.S. history have long been adopted by hate groups set on returning to a time when all non-white people were viewed as subhuman and un-American,” says Keegan Hankes, research analyst for the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). “Historically, these symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”

Yeah, the SPLC lost all credibility over the past year. They're a bunch of racist, women haters. That entire organization just got a smack down. I'll dismiss them just as I would any other group of crazies.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 

Maybe before Trump nobody cared - probably never occurred to anyone back in 2012. Things have actually changed quite a bit since then. And I'm not sure calling it a "racist flag" is exactly right. "Problematic" or something might be better? For now, anyway. After this, a lot more white nationalists will probably start using it!

seems a bit odd if "nobody cared" prior to trump. does that not say something to you?

Yes, that America is fucked thanks to Trump. And that perspectives change through time.

over courses of decades, yes. but to go from:

2012: ok to hang behind the first black president on his inauguration
2016: we can't put it on a running shoe

that's not a change of perspective. that's a change of who's (or more significantly, who's NOT) in power. 

I really really disagree with this (and add 3 years to your point). Normally you might be right, but not in times when extremes are in play. But not now. Things have RADICALLY changed since Trump gained office - surely you will acknowledge that. Some things change everything very quickly. Wars, depressions, revolutions... and when fascist sexual predators win the White House and empowers all the racists and assholes in the country, and calls the free press enemies of the people.

yeah, it's 2019. but this stuff you folks are claiming started with trump started well before he was even elected, so I just used the election time. so the time frame is even shorter. but i guess you can move the goal posts all you want. 

you guys are really reaching with this. 

7 years. 

SEVEN YEARS. 

seven years difference is what you are saying goes from hanging behind a president being inaugurated and being offended/outraged/annoyed/slightly perplexed at it being put on a running shoe. utter nonsense I tells ya. 

jeffbr

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 

I don't see one of those flags, myself.  

it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag. 

I know.  I don't see a racist flag behind Obama.  And my guess is he didn't either.  

It clearly isn't a racist flag. That is Kaep's faux outrage. He exists to stir the pot.

Is the Betsy Ross flag racist? Nike listened to Colin Kaepernick, but hate group monitors say no, conservatives push back.

 The Anti-Defamation League does not include it in its database of hate symbols. Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow for the ADL's Center on Extremism, said extremist groups have occasionally used it, but the flag is most commonly used by people for patriotic purposes. "We view it as essentially an innocuous historical flag," Pitcavage said. "It's not a thing in the white supremacist movement."

The ADL would be quick to call it out as racist if it actually was. This entire thing is contrived outrage. It's working, I guess. And it is fucking stupid.

Second mic drop. 

To be clear, the Betsy Ross flag is not nearly as recognizable a symbol of white supremacy as, say, the Confederate flag. “This is not a flag I see waving at events or seeing displayed on their websites,” Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow at the Center of Extremism at the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), tells Rolling Stone. It has, however, been associated with the Patriot Movement, an anti-government, extremist right-wing movement that encompasses smaller fringe movements such as the militia movement, the sovereign citizen movement, and the tax protest movement. (Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh was highly influenced by militia movement ideology.) The militia movement, says Pitcavage, is the youngest of the three, dating from about the mid-1990s, and has been using the Betsy Ross flag, among other Revolutionary War-era symbols, since its inception. “Because they view themselves as analogous to American revolutionaries, they love to use old flags from that era,” he says, citing the Revolutionary War-era “don’t tread on me” flag as another example. The Betsy Ross flag is apparently so closely identified with the Patriot Movement that until this morning, it was the main image of its Wikipedia page, according to reporter Charles Robinson. (It has since been removed, but is viewable on a cached version of the webpage.)

While the white supremacist movement and the Patriot movement are not synonymous, there is some overlap between the two. The flag has also been used or reinterpreted by groups like the American Identity Movement (formerly Identity Evropa) and Patriot Front, both of which have been classified as hate groups by the SPLC and were founded within the past few years. Pitcavage says that the Knight Riders, a now-defunct West Virginia-based Ku Klux Klan group, at one point required that every chapter of the group had to use either the Confederate flag or the Betsy Ross flag to cover the “altar” during meetings with Klan rituals; most recently, the Betsy Ross flag was depicted in a 2018 flier allegedly distributed in upstate New York for the United Northern & Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which depicts a Klansman on horseback carrying a Confederate flag in one hand and a Betsy Ross flag in another. Such groups “[brand] themselves in the trappings of Americana with the aim of creating a more marketable image for their dedication to creating an all-white nation,” says Hankes.

Well, the current flag is often used by "patriots" as well. But that doesn't mean that it is their symbol. Every iteration of the flag has likely had some scummy group using it as a symbol. But the point is that the Betsy Ross flag is NOT generally considered a symbol of racism by anyone except those looking for a reason to make noise. It is fairly innocuous. This entire thing is much ado 'bout nothing. Except to drive traffic to Nike.