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  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    But you taking offense really isn't the issue, is it? That black Americans take offense is. I 100% support their perspective. I also don't particularly care for the idea of a shoe bearing a symbol that will appeal to white nationalists. It's actually pretty simple IMO. As for Nike... Obviously they would be a LOT more concerned about alienating black Americans - a massive portion of their shoe market - than they are white people who suddenly give a shit about a flag they never gave a shit about until today.
    Me taking offense over what?  I'm not one to get offended at all.  If a white nationalist starts displaying the current flag, should we change the official flag (spoiler alert, they already do).  Should we change the name of our capital because Washington was a slave owner?  Should we change the name of the Roosevelt Bridge and pull him off the dime because he didn't do enough (or anything) to stop Jim Crow laws?  And how do you know what I gave a shit about until today?  That seems awfully presumptuous.  

    Again, this is totally different than celebrating the confederacy and those statutes.  
    You taking offense to the rejection of this obsolete flag. Okay, if you don't like the word offended, fill in whatever word you like, it doesn't matter to me. I think I've been pretty clear and simplistic is explaining where I'm coming from, so don't really have much more to say on the subject TBH.
    It's not just about the flag.  It's all sorts of things that the left allows to be co-oped.  That's my point.  The left is weak and doesn't know how to fight on these important topics.  One of the things I like most about Mayor Pete is that he's fighting to take back what the teachings of Jesus are really about.  I love that about him.  I want more of that.  
    I'm don't care about the left in this case. I'm going with what black Americans think about it, that's all. It actually has nothing to do with politics for me.
    But I don't think the left is weak in this context either. I think that perspective is getting pretty cozy with gaslighting.
    So I'm gaslighting people because I speak my beliefs.  Got it.  Makes perfect sense.  

    Is Colin speaking for all black Americans?  Does he have that right because he's black?  If so, awesome.  I'd like to speak for all white Americans.  Then I can really gaslight the fuck out of people.  
    I'm curious to know why you seem to be rather pissed off.
    I already said why.. thrice.  I'm aggravated that we allow the right wingers to co-op important symbols and religion, and then we concede that now those things are racist or whatever.  It's annoying as hell.  I get that you don't care about the flag, but I'm a history guy.  I care.  I care about the teachings of Jesus.  These things are important to me and I'm not going to give them up easily.  It's that freakin' simple.  
    (I'm a history gal, so that has nothing to do with it - being into history doesn't mean we have to "cherish" everything out of history. We can hate shit out of history too, and that is often the case for me when it comes to American history, since it's such an appalling history). So why don't you get mad at the alt-right who co-opted the symbols instead of the ones who are simply putting that into modern context because of the injustices they have experienced throughout American history? You are apparently mad at the left, and not the alt-right, who is who you should be mad at.
    As for the religious thing... that has nothing to do with this IMO. Religion has always and will always have a huge number of crazy fucking fanatics who are a blight on society, and there have always been those who think this world would be far better off without religion at all, and that, if Jesus were real, he'd be rolling in his grave over ALL the organized religion. Nothing new there.
    Ugh, I don't even know what you're arguing here.  I want the left to fight and not abdicate.  Sure, I'm mad at the alt-right, but I hate them so what's the point of that?  I expect nothing less than shitty from them.  
    And Jesus was real.  There's no debate on the historical Jesus in antiquity academic circles.  Whether you believe he is the Son of God or not, his philosophical teachings provide an invaluable guide to leading a life of good works and charity.  And that's why it's important not to concede him to the right as well.  
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,650
    edited July 2019
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    You taking offense to the rejection of this obsolete flag. Okay, if you don't like the word offended, fill in whatever word you like, it doesn't matter to me. I think I've been pretty clear and simplistic is explaining where I'm coming from, so don't really have much more to say on the subject TBH.
    It's not just about the flag.  It's all sorts of things that the left allows to be co-oped.  That's my point.  The left is weak and doesn't know how to fight on these important topics.  One of the things I like most about Mayor Pete is that he's fighting to take back what the teachings of Jesus are really about.  I love that about him.  I want more of that.  
    I'm don't care about the left in this case. I'm going with what black Americans think about it, that's all. It actually has nothing to do with politics for me.
    But I don't think the left is weak in this context either. I think that perspective is getting pretty cozy with gaslighting.
    So I'm gaslighting people because I speak my beliefs.  Got it.  Makes perfect sense.  

    Is Colin speaking for all black Americans?  Does he have that right because he's black?  If so, awesome.  I'd like to speak for all white Americans.  Then I can really gaslight the fuck out of people.  
    I'm curious to know why you seem to be rather pissed off.
    I already said why.. thrice.  I'm aggravated that we allow the right wingers to co-op important symbols and religion, and then we concede that now those things are racist or whatever.  It's annoying as hell.  I get that you don't care about the flag, but I'm a history guy.  I care.  I care about the teachings of Jesus.  These things are important to me and I'm not going to give them up easily.  It's that freakin' simple.  
    (I'm a history gal, so that has nothing to do with it - being into history doesn't mean we have to "cherish" everything out of history. We can hate shit out of history too, and that is often the case for me when it comes to American history, since it's such an appalling history). So why don't you get mad at the alt-right who co-opted the symbols instead of the ones who are simply putting that into modern context because of the injustices they have experienced throughout American history? You are apparently mad at the left, and not the alt-right, who is who you should be mad at.
    As for the religious thing... that has nothing to do with this IMO. Religion has always and will always have a huge number of crazy fucking fanatics who are a blight on society, and there have always been those who think this world would be far better off without religion at all, and that, if Jesus were real, he'd be rolling in his grave over ALL the organized religion. Nothing new there.
    Ugh, I don't even know what you're arguing here.  I want the left to fight and not abdicate.  Sure, I'm mad at the alt-right, but I hate them so what's the point of that?  I expect nothing less than shitty from them.  
    And Jesus was real.  There's no debate on the historical Jesus in antiquity academic circles.  Whether you believe he is the Son of God or not, his philosophical teachings provide an invaluable guide to leading a life of good works and charity.  And that's why it's important not to concede him to the right as well.  
    There actually is a pretty robust debate about whether or not Jesus existed. Google it if you're interested (but it doesn't sound like you would be). Me, I'm undecided - there are good arguments on both sides. Luckily, I don't have to make a decision, since I'm an Atheist.
    Personally, I think the left has better things to do right now than to fight for obsolete flags from the slave days.

    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    Obama's second inauguration. 
    Thanks, HFD. That is interesting and telling to me. I guess Kaep isn't actually the voice of all black people in this country. Who knew?
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,650
    edited July 2019
    jeffbr said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    Obama's second inauguration. 
    Thanks, HFD. That is interesting and telling to me. I guess Kaep isn't actually the voice of all black people in this country. Who knew?
    Everyone knew. For me, if it bothers any of them, good enough.
    I would love to know what Obama has to say about this shoe though.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    PJ_Soul said:
    jeffbr said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    Obama's second inauguration. 
    Thanks, HFD. That is interesting and telling to me. I guess Kaep isn't actually the voice of all black people in this country. Who knew?
    Everyone knew. For me, if it bothers any of them, good enough.
    I would love to know what Obama has to say about this shoe though.
    So would I. I wonder who Nike polled about this? Was it a knee jerk reaction to the opinion of one of the high profile endorsements, or was there some critical mass of opinion from the black community? And why wasn't that point of view known prior to the manufacture of the shoe? 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,111
    I was going to bring my kids to a revolutionary war re-enactment this weekend but after a lot of thought I don’t want them to be exposed to that racist flag the colonists will be waving. 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,111
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    Obama's second inauguration. 
    We all know that Obama was racist. Duh
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,449
    I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 
    Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall




  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 
    I don't see one of those flags, myself.  
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,650
    jeffbr said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    jeffbr said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    Obama's second inauguration. 
    Thanks, HFD. That is interesting and telling to me. I guess Kaep isn't actually the voice of all black people in this country. Who knew?
    Everyone knew. For me, if it bothers any of them, good enough.
    I would love to know what Obama has to say about this shoe though.
    So would I. I wonder who Nike polled about this? Was it a knee jerk reaction to the opinion of one of the high profile endorsements, or was there some critical mass of opinion from the black community? And why wasn't that point of view known prior to the manufacture of the shoe? 
    I'm not really sure it matters now, but I bet Nike doesn't mind, if it wasn't deliberate from the start.

    Rolling Stone actually wrote a pretty decent article about the issue of the symbolism. I agree with it.


    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,449
    mrussel1 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 
    I don't see one of those flags, myself.  
    it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag. 
    Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall




  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    mcgruff10 said:
    I was going to bring my kids to a revolutionary war re-enactment this weekend but after a lot of thought I don’t want them to be exposed to that racist flag the colonists will be waving. 
    Good thinking. You don't want to upset them.  
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,650
    mcgruff10 said:
    I was going to bring my kids to a revolutionary war re-enactment this weekend but after a lot of thought I don’t want them to be exposed to that racist flag the colonists will be waving. 
    Why not? The racists lose, don't they?
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,650
    edited July 2019
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 
    Maybe before Trump nobody cared - probably never occurred to anyone back in 2012. Things have actually changed quite a bit since then. And I'm not sure calling it a "racist flag" is exactly right. "Problematic" or something might be better? For now, anyway. After this, a lot more white nationalists will probably start using it!
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    So interestingly... I noticed yesterday that the English national team was wearing the color/style of St. George's cross.  And then I remembered that it was prevalent in Charlottesville by the right wingers.  I brought up Union Jack earlier, but perhaps this is a perfect corollary.  So I did a quick google and low and behold.. Poppy Noor, a woman of color, wrote an article last year about taking back the St George's cross from the right wing.  https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/sep/12/how-can-we-reclaim-the-st-georges-cross-from-the-far-right  This is very close to how I feel. 

    I want to reclaim the St George’s Cross and St George’s Day. Both the flag and the occasion are things that should represent English people, and it’s sad to see how they have been taken over by the far right for the last couple of decades.

  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,449
    PJ_Soul said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 
    Maybe before Trump nobody cared - probably never occurred to anyone back in 2012. Things have actually changed quite a bit since then. And I'm not sure calling it a "racist flag" is exactly right. "Problematic" or something might be better? For now, anyway. After this, a lot more white nationalists will probably start using it!
    seems a bit odd if "nobody cared" prior to trump. does that not say something to you?
    Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall




  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,650
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 
    Maybe before Trump nobody cared - probably never occurred to anyone back in 2012. Things have actually changed quite a bit since then. And I'm not sure calling it a "racist flag" is exactly right. "Problematic" or something might be better? For now, anyway. After this, a lot more white nationalists will probably start using it!
    seems a bit odd if "nobody cared" prior to trump. does that not say something to you?
    Yes, that America is fucked thanks to Trump. And that perspectives change through time.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    mrussel1 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 
    I don't see one of those flags, myself.  
    it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag. 
    I know.  I don't see a racist flag behind Obama.  And my guess is he didn't either.  
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,111
    mrussel1 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    mrussel1 said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I don't personally care if Obama's level of involvement with his own inauguration decorations (to me that's just giving him a preemptive pass on it if he didn't approve it). it's his inauguration, he should know if he's flying a racist flag behind himself. 
    I don't see one of those flags, myself.  
    it's the same flag as the nike shoe flag. 
    I know.  I don't see a racist flag behind Obama.  And my guess is he didn't either.  
    Definitely not.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,111
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    Obama's second inauguration. 
    This should end the conversation and prove that this whole thing is nonsense. 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......

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