Something about teacher's pay...

what dreams

pjhawks said:

what dreams said:

pjhawks said:

what dreams said:

It's conversations like these that have turned me into a teacher who never takes work home and leaves within the hour of the dismissal bell. I work my 200 contracted days for the hours I'm required (7:00-3:00) and that's it. I discovered very quickly that my putting in extra hours "for the children" made absolutely no difference on their bottom line -- grades, test scores, satisfaction with the class. Nothing. All it did was make me miserable, and then angry, about the wage theft. And then I would get involved in dumb conversations with disgruntled strangers who probably hated school when they were in school, probably weren't successful at it either which is why they hated it, so now they are adults who hate teachers just like they hated teachers when they were 12. These disgruntled adults go on and on about how I never work, and the paid holidays (which are NOT PAID), and I finally said, wait a minute, you are absolutely correct . . . I'm a professional under contract. My contract says 200 days, 7:00-3:00. That's all they're getting from me.  I became this way at around year 15. I'm now at year 26. Over a thousand kids have passed through my class since I began taking this stance, and they are fine. They're in college, working, starting families, etc. Nothing I did or didn't do as a teacher in my 200 day/8 hour a day job kept them from living their dream. I'm just not that powerful.
If I do happen to spend any extra time, which is rare to non-existent, it is because I choose to, not because I feel like I'm some kind of superhero for toiling away at my kitchen table grading papers that students will just stuff in the trash anyway once I hand them back. 
If every teacher did what I do, give the people what they're paying for -- in general, 193-200 days for 7.5-8 hours -- it would be fine. Trust me. Nobody would notice the difference. Teachers would get better at focusing their time on what matters. The things that don't get done are the things that don't matter. I have a lesson plan, I do the lesson, the grading gets done when it gets done. I'm not earning anything extra for being a superhero, nor do I have any desire to be a superhero, quite honestly. I have taken all these arguments to heart, and I absolutely agree -- teaching is a job just like any other, we all have to deal with stresses and demands -- and if I signed the same contract in any other field, I wouldn't be expected to work any more than what the contract states. No employer in any other field would write such a contract unless it were the expectation to work only those hours and days. Otherwise they would be in breach of contract. If my school board/state wanted me to work additional days and hours, they would have written a different contract. They didn't. I'm meeting the expectations of the contract.
I encourage all teachers across America to jump on board. WORK TO CONTRACT. It's liberating.
#RED4ED

while I understand your point, and at times have take the same attitude for short periods of time at my job, be thankful you are in a union that basically, unless you sleep with a student, keeps you from ever being fired.  in the business world this attitude in most companies doesn't take you too far. 

Again: bullshit.

I teach in one of the 38 right to work states where there is NO collective bargaining or protection against arbitrary firing. After 26 years, right now as I type, I have a letter in my personnel file threatening termination if I do not "build better relationships with students." Right before Christmas, nine 7th graders complained about how they don't like me. And now I am tasked with being liked -- by a bunch of 12 year olds -- or being fired. It's the damn truth. I can be fired if KIDS report they don't like me.

Please stop drinking the kool aid. You have no idea what you're talking about. Get informed. Actually read the teacher contracts in all 50 states. They are public documents. None of them guarantee a job for life.

oh so your saying your job is pretty much the same as most peoples...but you do the bare minimum to get by.  must be tough to have be liked. i mean it's not like others who work in other jobs have to be, you know, liked by people; clients, co-workers, bosses etc.  good to know.

Sure, a group of 12-year old boys don't like the way I grade, don't like that they have to give a speech in front of the class, don't like that that they can't talk while others are talking, don't like that I offered one extra help in front of everybody (oh, the humiliation to be offered help). . . but in today's world, these little boys go CRY LIKE PANSIES to the principal and a teacher's entire career is threatened. It makes a lot of sense that you would support that, as you sound like you were a 12-year old crybaby yourself and haven't outgrown it
And FYI, I don't do the bare minimum "to get by." That is not what I said. My students perform as well as, and in many cases better, than everyone else's in my department. I'm that good. I've figured out how to work an 8 hour day and still get top results. 

what dreams

pjhawks said:

brianlux said:

Why do some of you folks have such strong negative feelings for teachers?  Did you have a shitty teacher when you were a kid?  We're you abused by a teacher?  I don't understand the hate.

hate really? discussing their schedule is hate? why do people react so irrationally when bringing up a teacher schedule and days off? what other professions do people get so damn defensive about? and this thread is proof of the defensiveness.

NOBODY obsesses about anybody else's work schedule the way they obsess about teachers. When was the last time you read a post on the AMT:  "Mechanics are Never There on Sundays."  "My Doctors Take Every Friday Off."  "Cleaning Ladies are Never On Time." I simply just don't understand the obsession. This thread was dead for over a YEAR, and all of a sudden, it's President's Day and you have some thorn up your ass again about teachers. And another by the way -- MY SCHOOL DIVISION WAS OPEN ON PRESIDENT'S DAY.

what dreams

Keep it up, America. Pretty soon, nobody will be there for your kids on any days of the year:

https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/

mcgruff10

what dreams said:

pjhawks said:

brianlux said:

Why do some of you folks have such strong negative feelings for teachers?  Did you have a shitty teacher when you were a kid?  We're you abused by a teacher?  I don't understand the hate.

hate really? discussing their schedule is hate? why do people react so irrationally when bringing up a teacher schedule and days off? what other professions do people get so damn defensive about? and this thread is proof of the defensiveness.

NOBODY obsesses about anybody else's work schedule the way they obsess about teachers. When was the last time you read a post on the AMT:  "Mechanics are Never There on Sundays."  "My Doctors Take Every Friday Off."  "Cleaning Ladies are Never On Time." I simply just don't understand the obsession. This thread was dead for over a YEAR, and all of a sudden, it's President's Day and you have some thorn up your ass again about teachers. And another by the way -- MY SCHOOL DIVISION WAS OPEN ON PRESIDENT'S DAY.

This is 100% true. 

brianlux

mcgruff10 said:

what dreams said:

pjhawks said:

brianlux said:

Why do some of you folks have such strong negative feelings for teachers?  Did you have a shitty teacher when you were a kid?  We're you abused by a teacher?  I don't understand the hate.

hate really? discussing their schedule is hate? why do people react so irrationally when bringing up a teacher schedule and days off? what other professions do people get so damn defensive about? and this thread is proof of the defensiveness.

NOBODY obsesses about anybody else's work schedule the way they obsess about teachers. When was the last time you read a post on the AMT:  "Mechanics are Never There on Sundays."  "My Doctors Take Every Friday Off."  "Cleaning Ladies are Never On Time." I simply just don't understand the obsession. This thread was dead for over a YEAR, and all of a sudden, it's President's Day and you have some thorn up your ass again about teachers. And another by the way -- MY SCHOOL DIVISION WAS OPEN ON PRESIDENT'S DAY.

This is 100% true. 

Agreed!

I am grateful to you teachers who are still out there doing it.  Thank you!

pjhawks

what dreams said:

pjhawks said:

brianlux said:

Why do some of you folks have such strong negative feelings for teachers?  Did you have a shitty teacher when you were a kid?  We're you abused by a teacher?  I don't understand the hate.

hate really? discussing their schedule is hate? why do people react so irrationally when bringing up a teacher schedule and days off? what other professions do people get so damn defensive about? and this thread is proof of the defensiveness.

NOBODY obsesses about anybody else's work schedule the way they obsess about teachers. When was the last time you read a post on the AMT:  "Mechanics are Never There on Sundays."  "My Doctors Take Every Friday Off."  "Cleaning Ladies are Never On Time." I simply just don't understand the obsession. This thread was dead for over a YEAR, and all of a sudden, it's President's Day and you have some thorn up your ass again about teachers. And another by the way -- MY SCHOOL DIVISION WAS OPEN ON PRESIDENT'S DAY.

know what else is 100% true? no one , other than seasonal workers, have the schedule that teachers do.  #factsmatter

mace1229

pjhawks said:

mcgruff10 said:

pjhawks said:

cincybearcat said:

mcgruff10 said:

pjhawks said:

mcgruff10 said:

What gets disputed?

number of days off. i literally posted the schedule of my school district previously and people disputed it. like how do you dispute actual facts? yet they did.

you seem like a good dude so don't think i'm trying to pick on you or call you out personally here.

Cool cool. Beers on you.

we’ll obviously, you can’t afford beers on your salary!

ok now this is funny.  you have to laugh at this one McGruff right?

Oh hell yeah, that was a good one!!

McGruff not sure what age group you teach but what are your thoughts on moving the high school start back to later in the morning. Studies show that would be better for the students.  District near me wants to move to later start for high school but big push back from parents on it.

I've taught high school my whole career until this year (middle school).
There are studies that go both ways, there are some that show students still don't get enough sleep starting later. My school actually switched to an earlier start time a few years ago. They had started later for this reason, but then sports and clubs weren't getting out until 6:00 from practice, meaning students weren't getting home until 7 or later in many cases. It was tougher for my district because most students ride the bus. So being bussed home after practice, getting home at 7:00 or later means they leave the house at 7 AM to make it to the bus. It was tough for parents and families to have dinner, allow time for HW and do anything as a family before it was bed time.

mickeyrat

pjhawks said:

what dreams said:

pjhawks said:

brianlux said:

Why do some of you folks have such strong negative feelings for teachers?  Did you have a shitty teacher when you were a kid?  We're you abused by a teacher?  I don't understand the hate.

hate really? discussing their schedule is hate? why do people react so irrationally when bringing up a teacher schedule and days off? what other professions do people get so damn defensive about? and this thread is proof of the defensiveness.

NOBODY obsesses about anybody else's work schedule the way they obsess about teachers. When was the last time you read a post on the AMT:  "Mechanics are Never There on Sundays."  "My Doctors Take Every Friday Off."  "Cleaning Ladies are Never On Time." I simply just don't understand the obsession. This thread was dead for over a YEAR, and all of a sudden, it's President's Day and you have some thorn up your ass again about teachers. And another by the way -- MY SCHOOL DIVISION WAS OPEN ON PRESIDENT'S DAY.

know what else is 100% true? no one , other than seasonal workers, have the schedule that teachers do.  #factsmatter

because facts do matter.......was it teachers that dictated this schedule? hmm?

mace1229

pjhawks said:

brianlux said:

cincybearcat said:

brianlux said:

cincybearcat said:

brianlux said:

cincybearcat said:

brianlux said:

I don't believe anyone who has not been a teacher or at least has spent a good deal of time working in a classroom (not as a student) can fully understand the stress of the job.  I did it for five years.  It's one of the toughest jobs around, honestly.

I think every job has their own stress. 

True, but I can tell you that having done ... let me count them... 18 different types of work (and many more jobs as some, such as retail and bookstore work, occurred in different places), teaching (three different teaching jobs) was by far one of the most stressful. 

(P.S.  I've had something like 35 different jobs but have never been fired.  I just want to experience as much in life as possible 'cause ya only go around once!)

I gotta admit, working in manufacturing, I cannot imagine a teachers stress level being higher. And once you achieve a certain level, I cannot imagine a teachers workload being greater or even equal. But again, people make choices. Can be a teacher knowing you get more time off but pay is lower generally and ability to rise in pay in stifled.  You also have your vacation days all picked out for you and less flexibility throughout the year.  There are trade-offs. 

Also, teachers in most states are required to take continuing education classes. 

And so are lawyers, engineers, etc.  Not to mention the annual/b-annual re-certification requirements for EPA, etc in those fields. 

Yeah, those underpaid lawyers and engineers.  Sad, ain't it?!

teachers who complain about their salary are just dumb. why would you go into a field knowing how low the salaries can be...then complain about the salary?

I hate this argument. 16 years ago when I graduated college and started this career I didn't know the market was going to crash and teacher's salaries would be one of the biggest hit and slowest to recover. I didn't know that due to Obamacare and many other factors that my cost of health insurance would go up while coverage got worse. I didn't know that I would have to work about 8 years longer than teachers who are retiring today, and still get less of a pension. 
So your statement isn't true at all, things were different when most of us started. That is why in many states there is a teacher shortage because new teachers hear and see these complaints and find something else to do.
I moved to a new district about an hour away because of pay. My old school I was a 13-year veteran with an MA. My salary was 56k. After taxes, pension and healthcare and all the other deductions my take-home pay was about 35k. That was due to years of pay freezes while they hiked up the cost of benefits and pension contributions. 15 years ago would have thought things would be drastically different.

mickeyrat

mace1229 said:

pjhawks said:

brianlux said:

cincybearcat said:

brianlux said:

cincybearcat said:

brianlux said:

cincybearcat said:

brianlux said:

I don't believe anyone who has not been a teacher or at least has spent a good deal of time working in a classroom (not as a student) can fully understand the stress of the job.  I did it for five years.  It's one of the toughest jobs around, honestly.

I think every job has their own stress. 

True, but I can tell you that having done ... let me count them... 18 different types of work (and many more jobs as some, such as retail and bookstore work, occurred in different places), teaching (three different teaching jobs) was by far one of the most stressful. 

(P.S.  I've had something like 35 different jobs but have never been fired.  I just want to experience as much in life as possible 'cause ya only go around once!)

I gotta admit, working in manufacturing, I cannot imagine a teachers stress level being higher. And once you achieve a certain level, I cannot imagine a teachers workload being greater or even equal. But again, people make choices. Can be a teacher knowing you get more time off but pay is lower generally and ability to rise in pay in stifled.  You also have your vacation days all picked out for you and less flexibility throughout the year.  There are trade-offs. 

Also, teachers in most states are required to take continuing education classes. 

And so are lawyers, engineers, etc.  Not to mention the annual/b-annual re-certification requirements for EPA, etc in those fields. 

Yeah, those underpaid lawyers and engineers.  Sad, ain't it?!

teachers who complain about their salary are just dumb. why would you go into a field knowing how low the salaries can be...then complain about the salary?

I hate this argument. 16 years ago when I graduated college and started this career I didn't know the market was going to crash and teacher's salaries would be one of the biggest hit and slowest to recover. I didn't know that due to Obamacare and many other factors that my cost of health insurance would go up while coverage got worse. I didn't know that I would have to work about 8 years longer than teachers who are retiring today, and still get less of a pension. 
So your statement isn't true at all, things were different when most of us started. That is why in many states there is a teacher shortage because new teachers hear and see these complaints and find something else to do.
I moved to a new district about an hour away because of pay. My old school I was a 13-year veteran with an MA. My salary was 56k. After taxes, pension and healthcare and all the other deductions my take-home pay was about 35k. That was due to years of pay freezes while they hiked up the cost of benefits and pension contributions. 15 years ago would have thought things would be drastically different.

so it seems pjhawks is getting his way....

mcgruff10

I just never understood why people care so much about my salary and schedule.  I definitely think it is a little jealously and the old "I pay taxes so I pay your salary."

Bentleyspop

mcgruff10 said:

I just never understood why people care so much about my salary and schedule.  I definitely think it is a little jealously and the old "I pay taxes so I pay your salary."

It is definitely jealousy with a side of ignorance

PJPOWER

Correct me if I’m wrong, but a teacher’s yearly salary is only based off the number of actual work days on their contracts (they don’t technically get payed for Summers).  So a teacher wage of $40000/year does not actually represent a full year that includes Summer.  Summer days are essentially non-employment days, not paid holidays.

My wife works payroll for several schools in TX and says this always confuses teachers because they spread the actual paychecks out throughout the whole year instead of just giving bigger checks during the school year and no paycheck during the Summer (which would better represent what they get paid for).
Now, you could argue that teachers should or should not get paid more, but it is important to know how the pay scale works before comparing hourly/daily/yearly wage calculations.

mcgruff10

PJPOWER said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but a teacher’s yearly salary is only based off the number of actual work days on their contracts (they don’t technically get payed for Summers).  So a teacher wage of $40000/year does not actually represent a full year that includes Summer.  Summer days are essentially non-employment days, not paid holidays.

My wife works payroll for several schools in TX and says this always confuses teachers because they spread the actual paychecks out throughout the whole year instead of just giving bigger checks during the school year and no paycheck during the Summer (which would better represent what they get paid for).

Correct, I do not get paid in the summer, my contract is from september 1 to june 30. (20 paychecks)

PJPOWER

mcgruff10 said:

PJPOWER said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but a teacher’s yearly salary is only based off the number of actual work days on their contracts (they don’t technically get payed for Summers).  So a teacher wage of $40000/year does not actually represent a full year that includes Summer.  Summer days are essentially non-employment days, not paid holidays.

My wife works payroll for several schools in TX and says this always confuses teachers because they spread the actual paychecks out throughout the whole year instead of just giving bigger checks during the school year and no paycheck during the Summer (which would better represent what they get paid for).

Correct, I do not get paid in the summer, my contract is from september 1 to june 30. (20 paychecks)

Every school does things a little differently, so you don’t get paychecks during summer months?  Most schools still spread the checks out so teachers still get monthly checks in the summer too.  I don’t fully understand the “why” of this...seems to just create confusion.

mcgruff10

PJPOWER said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJPOWER said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but a teacher’s yearly salary is only based off the number of actual work days on their contracts (they don’t technically get payed for Summers).  So a teacher wage of $40000/year does not actually represent a full year that includes Summer.  Summer days are essentially non-employment days, not paid holidays.

My wife works payroll for several schools in TX and says this always confuses teachers because they spread the actual paychecks out throughout the whole year instead of just giving bigger checks during the school year and no paycheck during the Summer (which would better represent what they get paid for).

Correct, I do not get paid in the summer, my contract is from september 1 to june 30. (20 paychecks)

Every school does things a little differently, so you don’t get paychecks during summer months?  Most schools still spread the checks out so teachers still get monthly checks in the summer too.  I don’t fully understand the “why” of this...seems to just create confusion.

zero paychecks in the summer with no option in my district.  I would love if they did that since I start saving for the summer in september.  

cincybearcat

Bentleyspop said:

mcgruff10 said:

I just never understood why people care so much about my salary and schedule.  I definitely think it is a little jealously and the old "I pay taxes so I pay your salary."

It is definitely jealousy with a side of ignorance

I think it's jealousy with a side of always hearing about how teachers are underpaid and a healthy portion of if you don't support teachers/school levies, etc you hate the kids (ala the military).

Definitely jealous of the time off, but not the lack of flexibility throughout the year for vacation days.  

PJPOWER

cincybearcat said:

Bentleyspop said:

mcgruff10 said:

I just never understood why people care so much about my salary and schedule.  I definitely think it is a little jealously and the old "I pay taxes so I pay your salary."

It is definitely jealousy with a side of ignorance

I think it's jealousy with a side of always hearing about how teachers are underpaid and a healthy portion of if you don't support teachers/school levies, etc you hate the kids (ala the military).

Definitely jealous of the time off, but not the lack of flexibility throughout the year for vacation days.  

Most I know will get 2nd jobs during the summer.

hedonist

It may seem inconceivable, but some people don’t hand-wring over teachers’ salaries. 

I find more ridiculous the salaries that many sports stars, musicians, “celebrities “ pull. Teaching isn’t high on my list (not saying the job itself is unimportant). As with anything, do the work and be paid fairly.

...and I do realize that’s a simplistic if not idealistic view. 

mace1229

mcgruff10 said:

PJPOWER said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJPOWER said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but a teacher’s yearly salary is only based off the number of actual work days on their contracts (they don’t technically get payed for Summers).  So a teacher wage of $40000/year does not actually represent a full year that includes Summer.  Summer days are essentially non-employment days, not paid holidays.

My wife works payroll for several schools in TX and says this always confuses teachers because they spread the actual paychecks out throughout the whole year instead of just giving bigger checks during the school year and no paycheck during the Summer (which would better represent what they get paid for).

Correct, I do not get paid in the summer, my contract is from september 1 to june 30. (20 paychecks)

Every school does things a little differently, so you don’t get paychecks during summer months?  Most schools still spread the checks out so teachers still get monthly checks in the summer too.  I don’t fully understand the “why” of this...seems to just create confusion.

zero paychecks in the summer with no option in my district.  I would love if they did that since I start saving for the summer in september.  

That's the first time I've heard not even giving an option (and first I heard of bi-weekly checks to). All of my experiences and friends who are teachers get paid once a month, and have always had the option of 12 checks. Actually since I've been in Colorado 10 checks hasn't even been an option, can only do 12.

Either way it just depends on how you look at it to answer the question. I have a contract, that contract is for 190 days for the year. I've always had 1 paycheck a month year round. I wouldn't say other jobs don't get paid for weekends they have off