Making a Murderer (Crime-Docu similar to West Memphis Three case)

dignin

jerparker20 said:

If you think this case was fucked up check out the case of Cameron Willingham. At least Avery wasn't executed.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/news-events-exonerations/cameron-todd-willingham-wrongfully-convicted-and-executed-in-texas

I'm sure these cases are a dime a dozen.

What blows my mind is how a system could be set up so when you file your initial appeals it's done before the same judge that oversaw the initial trial. That seems very counter intuitive.

dignin

I'm also interested to hear if thirty's faith in the death penalty has been eroded by watching the american justice system work its magic up close.

polaris_x

dignin said:

polaris_x said:

dignin said:

I think we can all agree that the confession that Brandon gave was complete cohersed bullshit. So lets throw the hole rape, stabbing and throat slit scenario right out the window.

So if that didn't happen, there would probably be no blood in Avery's home.

I'm going to play devils advocate here and say Avery is guilty. Maybe another scenario is possible, maybe he followed her out of his property and murdered her elsewhere......you know, in broad daylight. After killing her somewhere else, he brought her body back to the salvage yard in her RAV 4. Explaining her blood being in the back of the vehicle. Somewhere other than the garage and his trailer, he cut her body apart.....and burned her in the bonfire.

I know that whole scenario is a stretch...but it is still more plausible than the official story.

is this your devils advocate position or personal opinion?

your scenario is not plausible because:
* he would have had to track her down without the means of a vehicle because he would of had to go retrieve the vehicle from where he tracked her down ... wouldn't fit the timeline ...
* plus if he really was in the Rav 4 - he would have left hair fibres and way more dna ... the fact they scrub the car and find his trace in a few specific spots is beyond suspect ...
* the burning in the bonfire i think has also been refuted as not being possible to reduce the bone to that state ...

I thought I made it very clear I was playing devils advocate by saying it.

*There is no real timeline here. The prosecutions timeline was out of whack to begin with. The bus drivers testimony proved that. So we can throw the timeline out, we have no idea what the timeline could be. He could have killed her somewhere and retrieved here body the next day for all we know. There was a lot of time that passed from when she went missing and when her vehicle was found.

*I agree it would be hard not to leave any of his DNA in the vehicle if he got in and was driving it.

*I haven't heard anything about it not being possible for a bonfire to burn her body down to the condition in which it was found. Do you have a link to any of these sources? And did the defense try and make that point in the trial?

sorry ... i asked because i want to know if i should slag you incessantly for your thoughts ... haha ... just kidding ...

ya ... the timeline is out of whack but the primary contention of the prosecution is that he killed her the night or day when she visited ... if there was any evidence pointing to any other scenario involving avery - pretty sure they would have gone down that path than the absurdity of the one they used in the trial ...

if you google the bones and burning ... most experts cast doubt on that segment of evidence ...

polaris_x

MayDay10 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I do wonder why anyone (other than Steven Avery) would have put branches, etc. on the vehicle.

If the vehicle was planted there by someone else to implicate Steven they would have just left it there.

It looked it was hidden by someone who wanted to cartoonishly make it look like someone was hiding it.

amateur hour

dignin

polaris_x said:

dignin said:

polaris_x said:

dignin said:

I think we can all agree that the confession that Brandon gave was complete cohersed bullshit. So lets throw the hole rape, stabbing and throat slit scenario right out the window.

So if that didn't happen, there would probably be no blood in Avery's home.

I'm going to play devils advocate here and say Avery is guilty. Maybe another scenario is possible, maybe he followed her out of his property and murdered her elsewhere......you know, in broad daylight. After killing her somewhere else, he brought her body back to the salvage yard in her RAV 4. Explaining her blood being in the back of the vehicle. Somewhere other than the garage and his trailer, he cut her body apart.....and burned her in the bonfire.

I know that whole scenario is a stretch...but it is still more plausible than the official story.

is this your devils advocate position or personal opinion?

your scenario is not plausible because:
* he would have had to track her down without the means of a vehicle because he would of had to go retrieve the vehicle from where he tracked her down ... wouldn't fit the timeline ...
* plus if he really was in the Rav 4 - he would have left hair fibres and way more dna ... the fact they scrub the car and find his trace in a few specific spots is beyond suspect ...
* the burning in the bonfire i think has also been refuted as not being possible to reduce the bone to that state ...

I thought I made it very clear I was playing devils advocate by saying it.

*There is no real timeline here. The prosecutions timeline was out of whack to begin with. The bus drivers testimony proved that. So we can throw the timeline out, we have no idea what the timeline could be. He could have killed her somewhere and retrieved here body the next day for all we know. There was a lot of time that passed from when she went missing and when her vehicle was found.

*I agree it would be hard not to leave any of his DNA in the vehicle if he got in and was driving it.

*I haven't heard anything about it not being possible for a bonfire to burn her body down to the condition in which it was found. Do you have a link to any of these sources? And did the defense try and make that point in the trial?

sorry ... i asked because i want to know if i should slag you incessantly for your thoughts ... haha ... just kidding ...

Haha.

When I have the time, I will look into burning bodies.....what a weird thing to say.

Gern Blansten

dignin said:

I'm also interested to hear if thirty's faith in the death penalty has been eroded by watching the american justice system work its magic up close.

Ever since the WM3 I've been leaning toward only allowing the death penalty when there is an admission of guilt.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

dignin said:

I'm also interested to hear if thirty's faith in the death penalty has been eroded by watching the american justice system work its magic up close.

The DP is fitting for some people. I still support it in some cases.

polaris_x

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

I'm also interested to hear if thirty's faith in the death penalty has been eroded by watching the american justice system work its magic up close.

Ever since the WM3 I've been leaning toward only allowing the death penalty when there is an admission of guilt.

have never supported the DP ... which has been debated forever on here ...

still ... both WM3 and this case has an admission of guilt ... frig ... there is a case in indonesia about a pedophile ring ... bunch of people admitted stuff but they were tortured ...

Gern Blansten

polaris_x said:

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

I'm also interested to hear if thirty's faith in the death penalty has been eroded by watching the american justice system work its magic up close.

Ever since the WM3 I've been leaning toward only allowing the death penalty when there is an admission of guilt.

have never supported the DP ... which has been debated forever on here ...

still ... both WM3 and this case has an admission of guilt ... frig ... there is a case in indonesia about a pedophile ring ... bunch of people admitted stuff but they were tortured ...

Avery didn't plead guilty....WM3 didn't plead guilty except for Alford Plea

Dassey didn't plead guilty. Not sure what you mean

dignin

Gern Blansten said:

polaris_x said:

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

I'm also interested to hear if thirty's faith in the death penalty has been eroded by watching the american justice system work its magic up close.

Ever since the WM3 I've been leaning toward only allowing the death penalty when there is an admission of guilt.

have never supported the DP ... which has been debated forever on here ...

still ... both WM3 and this case has an admission of guilt ... frig ... there is a case in indonesia about a pedophile ring ... bunch of people admitted stuff but they were tortured ...

Avery didn't plead guilty....WM3 didn't plead guilty except for Alford Plea

Dassey didn't plead guilty. Not sure what you mean

There were confessions in both cases.

Gern Blansten

dignin said:

Gern Blansten said:

polaris_x said:

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

I'm also interested to hear if thirty's faith in the death penalty has been eroded by watching the american justice system work its magic up close.

Ever since the WM3 I've been leaning toward only allowing the death penalty when there is an admission of guilt.

have never supported the DP ... which has been debated forever on here ...

still ... both WM3 and this case has an admission of guilt ... frig ... there is a case in indonesia about a pedophile ring ... bunch of people admitted stuff but they were tortured ...

Avery didn't plead guilty....WM3 didn't plead guilty except for Alford Plea

Dassey didn't plead guilty. Not sure what you mean

There were confessions in both cases.

right but they didn't plead guilty...my comment was no death penalty unless they plead guilty

dignin

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

Gern Blansten said:

polaris_x said:

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

I'm also interested to hear if thirty's faith in the death penalty has been eroded by watching the american justice system work its magic up close.

Ever since the WM3 I've been leaning toward only allowing the death penalty when there is an admission of guilt.

have never supported the DP ... which has been debated forever on here ...

still ... both WM3 and this case has an admission of guilt ... frig ... there is a case in indonesia about a pedophile ring ... bunch of people admitted stuff but they were tortured ...

Avery didn't plead guilty....WM3 didn't plead guilty except for Alford Plea

Dassey didn't plead guilty. Not sure what you mean

There were confessions in both cases.

right but they didn't plead guilty...my comment was no death penalty unless they plead guilty

I see what you're getting at.

polaris_x

Gern Blansten said:

polaris_x said:

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

I'm also interested to hear if thirty's faith in the death penalty has been eroded by watching the american justice system work its magic up close.

Ever since the WM3 I've been leaning toward only allowing the death penalty when there is an admission of guilt.

have never supported the DP ... which has been debated forever on here ...

still ... both WM3 and this case has an admission of guilt ... frig ... there is a case in indonesia about a pedophile ring ... bunch of people admitted stuff but they were tortured ...

Avery didn't plead guilty....WM3 didn't plead guilty except for Alford Plea

Dassey didn't plead guilty. Not sure what you mean

sorry ... i confused admission of guilt with confession ...

still ... if the law dictates that you have no chance of parole if you don't plead guilty ... it's not necessarily a foundation for justice ...

Gern Blansten

polaris_x said:

Gern Blansten said:

polaris_x said:

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

I'm also interested to hear if thirty's faith in the death penalty has been eroded by watching the american justice system work its magic up close.

Ever since the WM3 I've been leaning toward only allowing the death penalty when there is an admission of guilt.

have never supported the DP ... which has been debated forever on here ...

still ... both WM3 and this case has an admission of guilt ... frig ... there is a case in indonesia about a pedophile ring ... bunch of people admitted stuff but they were tortured ...

Avery didn't plead guilty....WM3 didn't plead guilty except for Alford Plea

Dassey didn't plead guilty. Not sure what you mean

sorry ... i confused admission of guilt with confession ...

still ... if the law dictates that you have no chance of parole if you don't plead guilty ... it's not necessarily a foundation for justice ...

First it has to be a capital crime....pleading guilty doesn't always mean you get the death penalty.

polaris_x

Gern Blansten said:

polaris_x said:

Gern Blansten said:

polaris_x said:

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

I'm also interested to hear if thirty's faith in the death penalty has been eroded by watching the american justice system work its magic up close.

Ever since the WM3 I've been leaning toward only allowing the death penalty when there is an admission of guilt.

have never supported the DP ... which has been debated forever on here ...

still ... both WM3 and this case has an admission of guilt ... frig ... there is a case in indonesia about a pedophile ring ... bunch of people admitted stuff but they were tortured ...

Avery didn't plead guilty....WM3 didn't plead guilty except for Alford Plea

Dassey didn't plead guilty. Not sure what you mean

sorry ... i confused admission of guilt with confession ...

still ... if the law dictates that you have no chance of parole if you don't plead guilty ... it's not necessarily a foundation for justice ...

First it has to be a capital crime....pleading guilty doesn't always mean you get the death penalty.

it would appear - many plead guilty to avoid the DP

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/why-innocent-people-plead-guilty-and-often-serve-years-prison-crime-they-didnt

Gern Blansten

rock on

William Wallace

Gern Blansten said:

I do wonder why anyone (other than Steven Avery) would have put branches, etc. on the vehicle.

If the vehicle was planted there by someone else to implicate Steven they would have just left it there.

Since the vehicle was planted there, they wanted it to look like Avery put it there and as if he tried to hide it.
Again, they did it in a most unprofessional way. These few branches do not hide anything, they clearly only make the false impression of someone wanting to hide something.
So it was still possible for the searcher to find the car, surprisingly in just under 20 minutes after entering the property (saying she was led by god).
Avery himself could easily have crushed the vehicle, or placed it somewhere else outside his property.

dimitrispearljam

http://m.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/making-murderer-show-article-1.2489945?cid=bitly&utm_content=buffer7e327&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

William Wallace

dimitrispearljam said:

http://m.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/making-murderer-show-article-1.2489945?cid=bitly&utm_content=buffer7e327&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

So the FOX special will be shown today in the US?
Hope it'll be available outside the US soon...

polaris_x

i just don't buy the impartiality of these shows because as we know - mainstream media's job is to perpetuate the current structure of compliance ... the biggest obstacle to steven avery being released is actually the media attention this case has gotten ...

it's sort of similar to the WM3 where they had to plead guilty for their freedom ... there is no way the justice system will set him free because any admittance of wrongdoing ultimately shows the justice the system for what it is .. which is corrupt and faulty ...

dimitrispearljam

polaris_x said:

i just don't buy the impartiality of these shows because as we know - mainstream media's job is to perpetuate the current structure of compliance ... the biggest obstacle to steven avery being released is actually the media attention this case has gotten ...

it's sort of similar to the WM3 where they had to plead guilty for their freedom ... there is no way the justice system will set him free because any admittance of wrongdoing ultimately shows the justice the system for what it is .. which is corrupt and faulty ...

I AGREE

dignin

Judge Jeanine Pirro on FOX eh ....I'm sure she will give Avery a fair shake.

You want to puke a little in your mouth, watch some of her handywork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATGdlxh2PIg

Gern Blansten

was there even any evidence to show that the bones were actually Halbach's?

I know her phone and pda were found in a burn barrel

Gern Blansten

MayDay10 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I do wonder why anyone (other than Steven Avery) would have put branches, etc. on the vehicle.

If the vehicle was planted there by someone else to implicate Steven they would have just left it there.

It looked it was hidden by someone who wanted to cartoonishly make it look like someone was hiding it.

right and he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed....but assuming he put the vehicle there it still doesn't explain why more dna wasn't in the vehicle, fingerprints, etc.

dimitrispearljam

Gern Blansten said:

was there even any evidence to show that the bones were actually Halbach's?

I know her phone and pda were found in a burn barrel

They found somε tissueον a bone?cant remember

dcrouthamel

My contention is very simple in this case. Thresa Halbachs DNA was found in three separate places; the garage, in the burn pit, and in the in the car. I want you to speak these two sentences and see if they make sense to you. 1) Steven Avery is a forensic expert and can cover up murder without a trace of blood. 2) Steven Avery is unable to dismantle a vehicle down to nothing.

He sure spent a lot of time cleaning up all the blood from the garage. He did have those three days which the prosecution keeps on saying but yeah he chose not to do anything with the vehicle!!!

How Brandon Dassey's testimony wasn't thrown out immediately is beyond me its sick and it's sad.

Gern Blansten

I heard (haven't verified) that in order to crush a car the engine and transmission must be removed. That would require quite a bit of work that someone might not want to mess with.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Gern Blansten said:

I heard (haven't verified) that in order to crush a car the engine and transmission must be removed. That would require quite a bit of work that someone might not want to mess with.

Well... if it meant saving yourself from being discovered for a murder you committed... I'm thinking a person might find the energy to do the work.

Gern Blansten

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Gern Blansten said:

I heard (haven't verified) that in order to crush a car the engine and transmission must be removed. That would require quite a bit of work that someone might not want to mess with.

Well... if it meant saving yourself from being discovered for a murder you committed... I'm thinking a person might find the energy to do the work.

Right but that would mean using some pretty large equipment that seemed to be right in the middle of the Avery Salvage Yard garage. How does one do that in the middle of the night (or day) and be discrete?

dignin

Gern Blansten said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Gern Blansten said:

I heard (haven't verified) that in order to crush a car the engine and transmission must be removed. That would require quite a bit of work that someone might not want to mess with.

Well... if it meant saving yourself from being discovered for a murder you committed... I'm thinking a person might find the energy to do the work.

Right but that would mean using some pretty large equipment that seemed to be right in the middle of the Avery Salvage Yard garage. How does one do that in the middle of the night (or day) and be discrete?

Well, he supposedly kidnapped, raped, murdered her all in daylight on the property. Not to mention dismembering her body.

Using the equipment to dismantle then crush the car in the day would be the least odd or far fetched thing in the whole scenario, considering it's a salvage yard.