Bernie Sanders for President

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  • Free
    Free Posts: 3,562
    Brian, Life is too short. Do what makes you happy. I know I will.
  • Free
    Free Posts: 3,562
    edited May 2016
    The fact that Clinton supporters are angrier at Bernie for being angry at the unfairness of this election than they are at the blatant anti-Sanders bias is extremely telling. One of the many reasons I will not be supporting Hillary in November if she is the Democratic nominee.
    Post edited by Free on
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    Brian - I know you said you weren't posting anymore, but I do recall one thing that I believe you said, which is a 'politically' conservative position. Didn't you say you were conflicted about the minimum wage hike?
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,359
    Free said:

    https://www.facebook.com/ajplusenglish/videos/735052996636210/

    People are hungering for more choices but The American political system excels at suppressing voices of opposition.


    ...much like this place.

    There are lots of criticisms I have about this place - but that it excels at suppressing the voices of opposition certainly doesn't make the list. Not once have I seen your opponents in debate here ask you to stop discussing. The whole point of an effective debate is to have both sides presenting with passion and non-fallacious evidence to back up their points. That is exactly what most wish for on this forum, and while there have been fallacious attacks, I'd hardly say that silencing opponents has been a goal of anyone here. Rather, winning debates has. Which is natural, because otherwise why debate at all? :)
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • Free
    Free Posts: 3,562
    edited May 2016
    benjs said:

    Free said:

    https://www.facebook.com/ajplusenglish/videos/735052996636210/

    People are hungering for more choices but The American political system excels at suppressing voices of opposition.


    ...much like this place.

    There are lots of criticisms I have about this place - but that it excels at suppressing the voices of opposition certainly doesn't make the list. Not once have I seen your opponents in debate here ask you to stop discussing. The whole point of an effective debate is to have both sides presenting with passion and non-fallacious evidence to back up their points. That is exactly what most wish for on this forum, and while there have been fallacious attacks, I'd hardly say that silencing opponents has been a goal of anyone here. Rather, winning debates has. Which is natural, because otherwise why debate at all? :)
    So, you're responding to my last half sentence and not the Jill Stein video?

    The whole point of an effective debate would be both sides stating their cases...w/ supporting evidence.
    Post edited by Free on
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,359
    Free said:

    benjs said:

    Free said:

    https://www.facebook.com/ajplusenglish/videos/735052996636210/

    People are hungering for more choices but The American political system excels at suppressing voices of opposition.


    ...much like this place.

    There are lots of criticisms I have about this place - but that it excels at suppressing the voices of opposition certainly doesn't make the list. Not once have I seen your opponents in debate here ask you to stop discussing. The whole point of an effective debate is to have both sides presenting with passion and non-fallacious evidence to back up their points. That is exactly what most wish for on this forum, and while there have been fallacious attacks, I'd hardly say that silencing opponents has been a goal of anyone here. Rather, winning debates has. Which is natural, because otherwise why debate at all? :)
    So, you're responding to my last half sentence and not the Jill Stein video?

    The whole point of an effective debate would be both sides stating their cases...w/ supporting evidence.
    At this point in time - yes. I have a job, which I quite like, and can't really watch a link until after working hours.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,652
    Just going to leave this here.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/05/a_letter_to_a_bernie_or_bust_voter.html?utm_source=web&utm_medium=twitter
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Kat
    Kat There's a lot to be said for nowhere. Posts: 4,955
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-kentucky-primary-recount_us_574492dce4b0613b512b6db7

    Any election should have an accurate count. :)

    Falling down,...not staying down
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    PJ_Soul said:

    Just going to leave this here.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/05/a_letter_to_a_bernie_or_bust_voter.html?utm_source=web&utm_medium=twitter

    Great article... well stated and the true state of the race.
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,359
    mrussel1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    Just going to leave this here.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/05/a_letter_to_a_bernie_or_bust_voter.html?utm_source=web&utm_medium=twitter

    Great article... well stated and the true state of the race.
    I'm not sure now is the right time for this article. Most Sanders supporters are still in the headspace of doing everything they can to permit Sanders to become the official Democratic nominee - far from the headspace of "if he loses, who will I vote for".
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,652
    benjs said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    Just going to leave this here.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/05/a_letter_to_a_bernie_or_bust_voter.html?utm_source=web&utm_medium=twitter

    Great article... well stated and the true state of the race.
    I'm not sure now is the right time for this article. Most Sanders supporters are still in the headspace of doing everything they can to permit Sanders to become the official Democratic nominee - far from the headspace of "if he loses, who will I vote for".
    Well it's not like he's going to be dragged behind the barn and shot if he doesn't win the nomination. I think it's always a good time to think about these things. No good burying ones head in the sand. I totally understand what you're saying. I would just disagree with such a line of thinking, since I think it is important to consider all possibilities from the beginning. I do believe in strategic voting, so I think it would be useful for Bernie supporters (which I am, as a non-voter) to consider alternatives. That does not mean that their support is lessened at all IMO. I guess some do see it that way though.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Free
    Free Posts: 3,562
    edited May 2016
    PJ_Soul said:

    Just going to leave this here.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/05/a_letter_to_a_bernie_or_bust_voter.html?utm_source=web&utm_medium=twitter

    That op-Ed piece fails to mention the reality of the 2000 race. In placing blame on the third-party candidate so the two-party system can prevail? I don't view it as a failure, more an example of how we are confined to a system that fails us, and failed us big-time that year. It's exactly why Sanders is running the Democratic ticket. Read below how the media influenced outcome, an incredible example of how the media is involved. Popular vote doesn't matter either, another thing proven that year. The 2000 election is the best example of an election being rigged, until this year. There is still argument across the Internet as to who really won that election.

    http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtID=2&psid=3377


    The presidential election of 2000 hinged on the outcome in Florida. First, the television networks said that Vice President Al Gore had carried the state. Then, the state’s election was considered “too close to call.” Then, the networks declared Texas Governor George W. Bush the winner. The presidential election was so close that it took five weeks to determine the winner. Vice President Al Gore carried the East and West Coasts and inland industrial cities, while Texas Governor George W. Bush won much of the Midwest and Plains, as well as the South. Gore gained a half-million more votes than Bush, but Gore lost the Electoral College when he lost Florida. Bush's official margin in Florida was by 537 votes.

    With the presidency hanging on a few hundred votes in a single state, there were lawsuits and requests for recounts. Bitter disputes centered on confusing ballots, missing names from voting rolls, and subjecting minority voters to multiple requests for identification. The punch card ballots posed a major problem--they were vulnerable to voter error. Many ballots were called into question because voters failed to punch a hole all the way through the ballot. In an extraordinary late-night decision, the U.S. Supreme Court halted a recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court. A narrow majority of the Justices said that the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court violated the principle that “all votes must be treated equally.” It also ruled that there was not enough time to conduct a new count that would meet constitutional muster.

    The 2000 presidential election was the first in 112 years in which a president lost the popular vote but captured enough states to win the electoral vote.
    Post edited by Free on
  • Free
    Free Posts: 3,562
    benjs said:

    mrussel1 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    Just going to leave this here.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/05/a_letter_to_a_bernie_or_bust_voter.html?utm_source=web&utm_medium=twitter

    Great article... well stated and the true state of the race.
    I'm not sure now is the right time for this article. Most Sanders supporters are still in the headspace of doing everything they can to permit Sanders to become the official Democratic nominee - far from the headspace of "if he loses, who will I vote for".
    No, while there is still a slim chance, we are realistic. All across the US is the conversation of whether we would settle with Hillary or not.
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    ^^ I lived and voted in Tampa during the 2000 election. The confusion of the butterfly was real. It wasn't just punching it through, rather the alignment was all off. I'm pretty sure I voted for Gore, but I guess you never know.

    I know I didn't vote for Nader who was wholly unqualified to be a President. He was running on grievances and purely domestic issues. But the media confusion did not deliver the election to Bush. It was the Scotus and the 5-4 decision to stop the recount that delivered the election to Bush, considering he won the original counting.

    I have no issues with the loser of the popular vote winning the election. That's not how our democracy was constructed. If someone wants to bitch about the electoral college, call a Constitutional Convention. And although it had been 112 years since this happened, it was the fourth time it happened in our history.

    And Free, I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but if we truly had three parties in this country as Sanders people seem to advocate, three RELEVANT parties, you could have every single election decided in the House. Just keep that in mind when the kids don't show up for mid-terms. You are aware of that right, or do I need to source that information?
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,590
    Kat said:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-kentucky-primary-recount_us_574492dce4b0613b512b6db7

    Any election should have an accurate count. :)

    Hey Kat
    www.myspace.com
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,652
    Yeah, a three or four party system isn't necessarily all it's cracked up to me IMO - it's what got us stuck with Stephen Harper for a decade, which nearly crushed the Canadian spirit (but not quite) ... but it's not worse than a two party system.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Free
    Free Posts: 3,562
    Did you check out that video that Benjs replied to, Soul? It's good.
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,652
    edited May 2016
    Free said:

    Did you check out that video that Benjs replied to, Soul? It's good.

    I did, and it is good. Just saying that a 3+ party system isn't necessarily so hot either. BUT the biggest benefit is that there is definitely more debate and ,more equal representation in government... The US's entire government system would have to change first though. The US has a 2 party system because the structure of the US government feeds into that. Would be great if the US could switch from a Republic to a parliamentary system.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Free
    Free Posts: 3,562
    I say we trade Canada the 2-party system for Trudeau. :wink:
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,652
    Free said:

    I say we trade Canada the 2-party system for Trudeau. :wink:

    Lucky for us, right now we have our cake and we're eating it too, hahaha.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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