Separation of church and state! Separation of religious discussion and Bernie running for president!
GO BERNIE!
Curious then, that his supporters are making a big deal about this Vatican visit. Is it pandering to the Catholic vote in NY?
It's pandering to everyone who is on the Pope Train. That's a lot of people. The Vatican's PR campaign is highly effective, and Catholics and non-Catholics alike are largely in love with the fuckin' guy. It's very smart for Bernie to accept the invitation. Nothing wrong with it either, IMO. It never even occurred to me to link this to Bernie's personal religious position, especially since he's not even Catholic. It's just a good opportunity for some solid publicity for a huge audience that has a very positive feeling about the Pope right now.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Separation of church and state! Separation of religious discussion and Bernie running for president!
GO BERNIE!
Curious then, that his supporters are making a big deal about this Vatican visit. Is it pandering to the Catholic vote in NY?
It's pandering to everyone who is on the Pope Train. That's a lot of people. The Vatican's PR campaign is highly effective, and Catholics and non-Catholics alike are largely in love with the fuckin' guy. It's very smart for Bernie to accept the invitation. Nothing wrong with it either, IMO. It never even occurred to me to link this to Bernie's personal religious position, especially since he's not even Catholic. It's just a good opportunity for some solid publicity for a huge audience that has a very positive feeling about the Pope right now.
Yeah, I have no issue with politicians appealing to certain blocs or segments of the population. It's a natural part of politics in my mind. Some call it micro targeting, other identity politics. My point was to Brian I think or others that say "keep religion out of politics" on one hand and "vote Bernie" on the other. I'm just saying here.... there's a lot of criticizing of certain normal political activities but then when Bernie does it, it's okay. This is one, the active courting of the super delegates is another... there's many more.
Separation of church and state! Separation of religious discussion and Bernie running for president!
GO BERNIE!
Curious then, that his supporters are making a big deal about this Vatican visit. Is it pandering to the Catholic vote in NY?
It's pandering to everyone who is on the Pope Train. That's a lot of people. The Vatican's PR campaign is highly effective, and Catholics and non-Catholics alike are largely in love with the fuckin' guy. It's very smart for Bernie to accept the invitation. Nothing wrong with it either, IMO. It never even occurred to me to link this to Bernie's personal religious position, especially since he's not even Catholic. It's just a good opportunity for some solid publicity for a huge audience that has a very positive feeling about the Pope right now.
Yeah, I have no issue with politicians appealing to certain blocs or segments of the population. It's a natural part of politics in my mind. Some call it micro targeting, other identity politics. My point was to Brian I think or others that say "keep religion out of politics" on one hand and "vote Bernie" on the other. I'm just saying here.... there's a lot of criticizing of certain normal political activities but then when Bernie does it, it's okay. This is one, the active courting of the super delegates is another... there's many more.
Well, okay... althought the Pope, to me, is a lot more than just religion. He is a political figure in his own right (could even be considered a dictatorial leader). As for Bernie's methods in the campaign... I feel like people have taken his message about electoral reform and run with it. There seems to be this assumption that Bernie is very black and white as far as this goes, and I don't know why. To me, Bernie comes of as a very complicated political character, where black and white doesn't exist.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Separation of church and state! Separation of religious discussion and Bernie running for president!
GO BERNIE!
Curious then, that his supporters are making a big deal about this Vatican visit. Is it pandering to the Catholic vote in NY?
It's pandering to everyone who is on the Pope Train. That's a lot of people. The Vatican's PR campaign is highly effective, and Catholics and non-Catholics alike are largely in love with the fuckin' guy. It's very smart for Bernie to accept the invitation. Nothing wrong with it either, IMO. It never even occurred to me to link this to Bernie's personal religious position, especially since he's not even Catholic. It's just a good opportunity for some solid publicity for a huge audience that has a very positive feeling about the Pope right now.
Yeah, I have no issue with politicians appealing to certain blocs or segments of the population. It's a natural part of politics in my mind. Some call it micro targeting, other identity politics. My point was to Brian I think or others that say "keep religion out of politics" on one hand and "vote Bernie" on the other. I'm just saying here.... there's a lot of criticizing of certain normal political activities but then when Bernie does it, it's okay. This is one, the active courting of the super delegates is another... there's many more.
Well, okay... althought the Pope, to me, is a lot more than just religion. He is a political figure in his own right (could even be considered a dictatorial leader). As for Bernie's methods in the campaign... I feel like people have taken his message about electoral reform and run with it. There seems to be this assumption that Bernie is very black and white as far as this goes, and I don't know why. To me, Bernie comes of as a very complicated political character, where black and white doesn't exist.
Well it is interesting that when JFK (first Catholic president) was running, there was a smear campaign against him that the Vatican would be calling the shots if he was President. That was a real fear during a time when the political structure was 100% WASP. So your point is valid (not sure about dictator though) regarding what he represents.
And you are right and I think we are saying the same thing, although I'm a bit more critical. Bernie's backers have created this 'purity' thing around him that really does not exist. He has lots of warts like everyone else. It's easy to find hypocritical issues espoused more by his followers than the candidate himself. I'm not sure B&W exists for any issue or any candidate. There's almost always some merit to a counterpoint (other than really sensitive issues like racism, etc.).
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,074
Separation of church and state! Separation of religious discussion and Bernie running for president!
GO BERNIE!
But it (Vatican visit) was brought up in this thread? I found the overall discussion interesting though still trying to follow some of the rationales.
Oh well!
To me it's just not that big a deal. Bernie visits with Pope. Bernie is running for president- to many, an important job and influential job. Francis is the Pope- to many, an important job and influential job. Important person meets with important person. No big deal- end of story.
That's how I see it anyway. No biggie either way.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Separation of church and state! Separation of religious discussion and Bernie running for president!
GO BERNIE!
But it (Vatican visit) was brought up in this thread? I found the overall discussion interesting though still trying to follow some of the rationales.
Oh well!
To me it's just not that big a deal. Bernie visits with Pope. Bernie is running for president- to many, an important job and influential job. Francis is the Pope- to many, an important job and influential job. Important person meets with important person. No big deal- end of story.
That's how I see it anyway. No biggie either way.
It may be for some, doesn't bother me but I'd imagine it may mean something more (or less, or just different) if it were another politician or leader. I only commented because the article about it was specifically placed in the thread. And religion does tend to tie into politics/politicians in many ways, so it's not really irrelevant or something that shouldn't be discussed in the same breath.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,074
It's true, religion does tend to tie into politics. But should it? Debatable for sure but I think there was a good reason Thomas Jefferson came up with the notion of "Separation of church and state". Bernie meeting with the Pope is likely to be more about the influence of their ties to groups of people and relevant social matters. I can't see Bernie and Francis sitting down and discussing Augustine's views on dispensation or the rapture or magic underwear. Well, ok, maybe magic underwear.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
The reason why the Pope invited Bernie Sanders ( and it's in the article I believe, so check it out ), is because they have similar interest on their outlooks on the world: they both are passionate about economical inequality and environmental justice. Both require world leaders, they are talking about world leadership.
I'm sure it would have a much bigger impact on me if the politician in question were Catholic. But with Bernie being Jewish but not particularly religious in the traditional sense ... meh. I dunno. They're just going to talk about the environment, so great. But Hedo's right about religion tying into politics in many ways in the US.... which horrified the fuck out of me. It's just that I don't really feel it in this case. At any rate, this is a great opportunity for Bernie.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
The reason why the Pope invited Bernie Sanders ( and it's in the article I believe, so check it out ), is because they have similar interest on their outlooks on the world: they both are passionate about economical inequality and environmental justice. Both require world leaders, they are talking about world leadership.
To be clear, Bernie is not meeting the Pope. The Pontifical academy (not the Holy See himself) invited Bernie to speak at a conference celebrating the 25 year anniversary of the encyclical that spoke to the evils of Capitalism. The Pope will not be in attendance. According to the Daily Beast:
The Vatican spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi, told The Daily Beast that it wasn’t the pope who personally invited the politician. “The invitation was made on behalf of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, not by Pope Francis,” he said. “There is no expectation that the pope will meet Mr. Sanders.” He then added that he could not completely exclude the possibility, but that nothing was on the agenda at the moment
Anyways, not that it matters. I think we all agree that it's much ado about not much. Considering the timing (leading up to the NY primary), I think it's an effort to curry favor with the Catholic vote. Can't blame the guy.
Oh. I thought the Pope would be there. Well never mind then. This is not a complete non-story, lol. I personally don't think most Catholics would give a crap about this if the Pope isn't involved.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,074
Well there goes the whole frickin' discussion down the drain.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Oh. I thought the Pope would be there. Well never mind then. This is not a complete non-story, lol. I personally don't think most Catholics would give a crap about this if the Pope isn't involved.
But you have to wonder if his staff misunderstood when they accepted. It's a topic that would certainly interest him, but it's curious to leave the country the weekend before the NY primary which is really make/break for him. A photo-op with the Pope is a lot more significant than attending a seminar.
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Oh. I thought the Pope would be there. Well never mind then. This is not a complete non-story, lol. I personally don't think most Catholics would give a crap about this if the Pope isn't involved.
But you have to wonder if his staff misunderstood when they accepted. It's a topic that would certainly interest him, but it's curious to leave the country the weekend before the NY primary which is really make/break for him. A photo-op with the Pope is a lot more significant than attending a seminar.
I wouldn't be surprised. It wouldn't be the first time that the Pope's "people" gave the wrong impression.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Oh. I thought the Pope would be there. Well never mind then. This is not a complete non-story, lol. I personally don't think most Catholics would give a crap about this if the Pope isn't involved.
But you have to wonder if his staff misunderstood when they accepted. It's a topic that would certainly interest him, but it's curious to leave the country the weekend before the NY primary which is really make/break for him. A photo-op with the Pope is a lot more significant than attending a seminar.
I wouldn't be surprised. It wouldn't be the first time that the Pope's "people" gave the wrong impression.
Yeah that issue with the crazy from Kentucky is similar.
I find it interesting that the media, at first, tried to portray Sanders as "inviting himself to the Vatican". It was quickly proven wrong.
Yep, main stream media has been anti-Sanders the whole way. That's given more cause than ever to not trust most off the major U.S. media. I'll stick with The Guardian, sometimes the BBC...and always The Onion.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I find it interesting that the media, at first, tried to portray Sanders as "inviting himself to the Vatican". It was quickly proven wrong.
Yep, main stream media has been anti-Sanders the whole way. That's given more cause than ever to not trust most off the major U.S. media. I'll stick with The Guardian, sometimes the BBC...and always The Onion.
No, two spokespeople for the Pontifical society said two different things:
Margaret Archer, president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, said that Sanders invited himself. “Sanders made the first move, for the obvious reasons,” Archer told Bloomberg. “He may be going for the Catholic vote but this is not the Catholic vote and he should remember that and act accordingly—not that he will.” Not long after, Monsignor Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo, chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences stepped in to dispute Archer’s statements. “I deny that. It was not that way," Sánchez Sorondo told Reuters. “This is not true and she knows it. I invited him with her consensus.”
I find it interesting that the media, at first, tried to portray Sanders as "inviting himself to the Vatican". It was quickly proven wrong.
Yep, main stream media has been anti-Sanders the whole way. That's given more cause than ever to not trust most off the major U.S. media. I'll stick with The Guardian, sometimes the BBC...and always The Onion.
No, two spokespeople for the Pontifical society said two different things:
Margaret Archer, president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, said that Sanders invited himself. “Sanders made the first move, for the obvious reasons,” Archer told Bloomberg. “He may be going for the Catholic vote but this is not the Catholic vote and he should remember that and act accordingly—not that he will.” Not long after, Monsignor Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo, chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences stepped in to dispute Archer’s statements. “I deny that. It was not that way," Sánchez Sorondo told Reuters. “This is not true and she knows it. I invited him with her consensus.”
I find it interesting that the media, at first, tried to portray Sanders as "inviting himself to the Vatican". It was quickly proven wrong.
Yep, main stream media has been anti-Sanders the whole way. That's given more cause than ever to not trust most off the major U.S. media. I'll stick with The Guardian, sometimes the BBC...and always The Onion.
No, two spokespeople for the Pontifical society said two different things:
Margaret Archer, president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, said that Sanders invited himself. “Sanders made the first move, for the obvious reasons,” Archer told Bloomberg. “He may be going for the Catholic vote but this is not the Catholic vote and he should remember that and act accordingly—not that he will.” Not long after, Monsignor Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo, chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences stepped in to dispute Archer’s statements. “I deny that. It was not that way," Sánchez Sorondo told Reuters. “This is not true and she knows it. I invited him with her consensus.”
Comments
GO BERNIE!
Oh well!
As for Bernie's methods in the campaign... I feel like people have taken his message about electoral reform and run with it. There seems to be this assumption that Bernie is very black and white as far as this goes, and I don't know why. To me, Bernie comes of as a very complicated political character, where black and white doesn't exist.
And you are right and I think we are saying the same thing, although I'm a bit more critical. Bernie's backers have created this 'purity' thing around him that really does not exist. He has lots of warts like everyone else. It's easy to find hypocritical issues espoused more by his followers than the candidate himself. I'm not sure B&W exists for any issue or any candidate. There's almost always some merit to a counterpoint (other than really sensitive issues like racism, etc.).
That's how I see it anyway. No biggie either way.
But Hedo's right about religion tying into politics in many ways in the US.... which horrified the fuck out of me. It's just that I don't really feel it in this case. At any rate, this is a great opportunity for Bernie.
The Vatican spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi, told The Daily Beast that it wasn’t the pope who personally invited the politician. “The invitation was made on behalf of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, not by Pope Francis,” he said. “There is no expectation that the pope will meet Mr. Sanders.” He then added that he could not completely exclude the possibility, but that nothing was on the agenda at the moment
Anyways, not that it matters. I think we all agree that it's much ado about not much. Considering the timing (leading up to the NY primary), I think it's an effort to curry favor with the Catholic vote. Can't blame the guy.
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2013- Charlotte, NC
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Margaret Archer, president of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, said that Sanders invited himself. “Sanders made the first move, for the obvious reasons,” Archer told Bloomberg. “He may be going for the Catholic vote but this is not the Catholic vote and he should remember that and act accordingly—not that he will.”
Not long after, Monsignor Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo, chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences stepped in to dispute Archer’s statements. “I deny that. It was not that way," Sánchez Sorondo told Reuters. “This is not true and she knows it. I invited him with her consensus.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/10/vatican-pope-didn-t-invite-bernie-sanders.html
-Lou Reed