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Paris Attacks

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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,714
    mickeyrat said:

    eddiec said:




    BS44325 said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    dignin said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    But it's a good point. I don't actually find it funny. This whole issue is absolutely 100% infuriating to me.

    Agree with the infuriating as well though for it is a world war and people refuse to recognize...it has been for years. An enemy has engaged globally but we have yet decided to fully label the enemy or respond appropriately. Gunmen have just taken 170 hostages in Mali, American teenager killed in Israel yesterday along with four others, all this on top of the countless number of attacks that began on a regular basis since before this message board even existed. It is time for people on here to wake up to this fact. Until then it is impossible to even discuss solutions.
    Although the Mali attack appears to be Al-Qaeda, not ISIS.
    It's the ideology and not the group we're at war with.
    Exactly, and you can't win a war with ideology with guns and bombs.

    Yes you can
    Didn't work too well in Afghanistan. Or Vietnam.
    Yet it worked extremely well in Germany and Japan so go figure. It is about a commitment to winning and staying to secure the peace. Peace was secured in Iraq but then came withdrawal. If troops stayed ISIS would be on the ropes. This is dubbed the long war for a reason. A commitment to stay is necessary.
    So you would be ok for troops to be there for like the next what 50 yrs cause maybe by then you would change their ideology ....
    Yes
    Living in a country that is occupied with a foreign presence walking around with guns will not work.
    We were only in Japan for 6 years after the war, hardly a sustained presence.

    Can Canada's military sustain such a mission?
    BS come back!!! Does Canada's military stand ready to meet this "50 yr" mission?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited December 2015
    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    eddiec said:




    BS44325 said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    dignin said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    But it's a good point. I don't actually find it funny. This whole issue is absolutely 100% infuriating to me.

    Agree with the infuriating as well though for it is a world war and people refuse to recognize...it has been for years. An enemy has engaged globally but we have yet decided to fully label the enemy or respond appropriately. Gunmen have just taken 170 hostages in Mali, American teenager killed in Israel yesterday along with four others, all this on top of the countless number of attacks that began on a regular basis since before this message board even existed. It is time for people on here to wake up to this fact. Until then it is impossible to even discuss solutions.
    Although the Mali attack appears to be Al-Qaeda, not ISIS.
    It's the ideology and not the group we're at war with.
    Exactly, and you can't win a war with ideology with guns and bombs.

    Yes you can
    Didn't work too well in Afghanistan. Or Vietnam.
    Yet it worked extremely well in Germany and Japan so go figure. It is about a commitment to winning and staying to secure the peace. Peace was secured in Iraq but then came withdrawal. If troops stayed ISIS would be on the ropes. This is dubbed the long war for a reason. A commitment to stay is necessary.
    So you would be ok for troops to be there for like the next what 50 yrs cause maybe by then you would change their ideology ....
    Yes
    Living in a country that is occupied with a foreign presence walking around with guns will not work.
    We were only in Japan for 6 years after the war, hardly a sustained presence.

    Can Canada's military sustain such a mission?
    Does Canada's military stand ready to meet this "50 yr" mission?
    .
    Post edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,039

    PJ_Soul said:

    If ye don't mind me diverging for a minute. What kind of shite security allows them to get a bomb onto a plane?!

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/russian-plane-crash-picture-shows-6884828

    Could have been put there by someone with security clearance. There isn't much anyone can do about a person who has security clearance and then decides to become a terrorist, or has a crystal clear record and references, etc, but decides to be a terrorist after being hired and developing trust. No matter what precautions are taken, there will ALWAYS be ways for terrorists to do their thing.
    That said, who knows how this specific bomb got there. It sounds like it was big, so it seem likely that it had to have been done pre-flight by someone who had access to the empty plane.
    Great, even more reasons for me to be wary of flying, think I should be fairly safe with Aer Lingus staff at least!
    I don't fly anymore myself but mainly due to issues other than fear of sabotage or terrorism. It's worth bearing in mind that flying is still far safer than being on the road in an automobile.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • jnimhaoileoinjnimhaoileoin Baile Átha CliathPosts: 2,682
    brianlux said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    If ye don't mind me diverging for a minute. What kind of shite security allows them to get a bomb onto a plane?!

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/russian-plane-crash-picture-shows-6884828

    Could have been put there by someone with security clearance. There isn't much anyone can do about a person who has security clearance and then decides to become a terrorist, or has a crystal clear record and references, etc, but decides to be a terrorist after being hired and developing trust. No matter what precautions are taken, there will ALWAYS be ways for terrorists to do their thing.
    That said, who knows how this specific bomb got there. It sounds like it was big, so it seem likely that it had to have been done pre-flight by someone who had access to the empty plane.
    Great, even more reasons for me to be wary of flying, think I should be fairly safe with Aer Lingus staff at least!
    I don't fly anymore myself but mainly due to issues other than fear of sabotage or terrorism. It's worth bearing in mind that flying is still far safer than being on the road in an automobile.
    So they say but at least I feel I have some control in my own car!
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,083
    mickeyrat said:

    mickeyrat said:

    eddiec said:




    BS44325 said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    dignin said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    But it's a good point. I don't actually find it funny. This whole issue is absolutely 100% infuriating to me.

    Agree with the infuriating as well though for it is a world war and people refuse to recognize...it has been for years. An enemy has engaged globally but we have yet decided to fully label the enemy or respond appropriately. Gunmen have just taken 170 hostages in Mali, American teenager killed in Israel yesterday along with four others, all this on top of the countless number of attacks that began on a regular basis since before this message board even existed. It is time for people on here to wake up to this fact. Until then it is impossible to even discuss solutions.
    Although the Mali attack appears to be Al-Qaeda, not ISIS.
    It's the ideology and not the group we're at war with.
    Exactly, and you can't win a war with ideology with guns and bombs.

    Yes you can
    Didn't work too well in Afghanistan. Or Vietnam.
    Yet it worked extremely well in Germany and Japan so go figure. It is about a commitment to winning and staying to secure the peace. Peace was secured in Iraq but then came withdrawal. If troops stayed ISIS would be on the ropes. This is dubbed the long war for a reason. A commitment to stay is necessary.
    So you would be ok for troops to be there for like the next what 50 yrs cause maybe by then you would change their ideology ....
    Yes
    Living in a country that is occupied with a foreign presence walking around with guns will not work.
    We were only in Japan for 6 years after the war, hardly a sustained presence.

    Can Canada's military sustain such a mission?
    BS come back!!! Does Canada's military stand ready to meet this "50 yr" mission?
    Not with Trudeau in charge. But don't blame me...I voted for the other guy!
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,714

    brianlux said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    If ye don't mind me diverging for a minute. What kind of shite security allows them to get a bomb onto a plane?!

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/russian-plane-crash-picture-shows-6884828

    Could have been put there by someone with security clearance. There isn't much anyone can do about a person who has security clearance and then decides to become a terrorist, or has a crystal clear record and references, etc, but decides to be a terrorist after being hired and developing trust. No matter what precautions are taken, there will ALWAYS be ways for terrorists to do their thing.
    That said, who knows how this specific bomb got there. It sounds like it was big, so it seem likely that it had to have been done pre-flight by someone who had access to the empty plane.
    Great, even more reasons for me to be wary of flying, think I should be fairly safe with Aer Lingus staff at least!
    I don't fly anymore myself but mainly due to issues other than fear of sabotage or terrorism. It's worth bearing in mind that flying is still far safer than being on the road in an automobile.
    So they say but at least I feel I have some control in my own car!
    But in comparison to all the other vehicles just how much control do you have?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 48,211
    edited November 2015

    PJ_Soul said:

    If ye don't mind me diverging for a minute. What kind of shite security allows them to get a bomb onto a plane?!

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/russian-plane-crash-picture-shows-6884828

    Could have been put there by someone with security clearance. There isn't much anyone can do about a person who has security clearance and then decides to become a terrorist, or has a crystal clear record and references, etc, but decides to be a terrorist after being hired and developing trust. No matter what precautions are taken, there will ALWAYS be ways for terrorists to do their thing.
    That said, who knows how this specific bomb got there. It sounds like it was big, so it seem likely that it had to have been done pre-flight by someone who had access to the empty plane.
    Great, even more reasons for me to be wary of flying, think I should be fairly safe with Aer Lingus staff at least!
    Apparently you are still more likely to be struck by lightning than you are to die in a terrorist attack (in the West), let alone dying in a car crash, which is almost infinitely more likely. I wouldn't waste any energy worrying about it.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • jnimhaoileoinjnimhaoileoin Baile Átha CliathPosts: 2,682
    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    If ye don't mind me diverging for a minute. What kind of shite security allows them to get a bomb onto a plane?!

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/russian-plane-crash-picture-shows-6884828

    Could have been put there by someone with security clearance. There isn't much anyone can do about a person who has security clearance and then decides to become a terrorist, or has a crystal clear record and references, etc, but decides to be a terrorist after being hired and developing trust. No matter what precautions are taken, there will ALWAYS be ways for terrorists to do their thing.
    That said, who knows how this specific bomb got there. It sounds like it was big, so it seem likely that it had to have been done pre-flight by someone who had access to the empty plane.
    Great, even more reasons for me to be wary of flying, think I should be fairly safe with Aer Lingus staff at least!
    Apparently you are still more likely to be struck by lightning than you are to die in a terrorist attack (in the West), let alone dying in a car crash, which is almost infinitely more likely. I wouldn't waste any energy worrying about it.
    Good point!
  • jnimhaoileoinjnimhaoileoin Baile Átha CliathPosts: 2,682
    On a lighter note...seems Ireland could be next in their sights

    http://www.theslicedpan.com/nonsense/why-is-ireland-targeting-ireland/317263
  • dignindignin Posts: 8,992
    Eagles of Death Metal Discuss Paris Terror Attacks

    http://www.vice.com/read/eagles-of-death-metal-discuss-paris-terror-attacks
  • Leezestarr313Leezestarr313 Temple of the catPosts: 14,107
    That video made me well up. But it was good of them to talk about it, get it out. The whole thing is still surreal to me. I hope everyone who was there can somehow live a normal life again at one point. I hope they get help and support.
    It makes my heart boom to see how strong their connection to the fans is. It always was, because they are not a huge band, but this probably tightened bonds even more. Rock 'n' roll :rock_on: I'd love if PJ covered the EoDM song, too.
  • That video made me well up. But it was good of them to talk about it, get it out. The whole thing is still surreal to me. I hope everyone who was there can somehow live a normal life again at one point. I hope they get help and support.
    It makes my heart boom to see how strong their connection to the fans is. It always was, because they are not a huge band, but this probably tightened bonds even more. Rock 'n' roll :rock_on: I'd love if PJ covered the EoDM song, too.

    Every time I think of a terror attack in a modernized country I think of Megadeth's song Holy Wars. This song was years ahead of it's time.
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited December 2015
    .
    Post edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 23,719
    Not sure if or how it's subsided - do you mean discussion of it? - but fuck if I'm up for contemplating what could come. Not willing or wanting to visit that side of my imagination.

    Just hoping people can have peace. Some semblance of it.
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited December 2015
    .
    Post edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 7,362
    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    If ye don't mind me diverging for a minute. What kind of shite security allows them to get a bomb onto a plane?!

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/russian-plane-crash-picture-shows-6884828

    Could have been put there by someone with security clearance. There isn't much anyone can do about a person who has security clearance and then decides to become a terrorist, or has a crystal clear record and references, etc, but decides to be a terrorist after being hired and developing trust. No matter what precautions are taken, there will ALWAYS be ways for terrorists to do their thing.
    That said, who knows how this specific bomb got there. It sounds like it was big, so it seem likely that it had to have been done pre-flight by someone who had access to the empty plane.
    Great, even more reasons for me to be wary of flying, think I should be fairly safe with Aer Lingus staff at least!
    Apparently you are still more likely to be struck by lightning than you are to die in a terrorist attack (in the West), let alone dying in a car crash, which is almost infinitely more likely. I wouldn't waste any energy worrying about it.
    And I wish people would match their fear and anxiety with the actual risk or what's going on. The person who's terrified of a home invasion or a terrorist attack jumps in their car without much thought, playing and talking on their phone and in general, not paying much attention.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,572

    So now that the Paris Attack stuff has dwindled what do you think the next horror will be?

    It's come and gone all around the world. Every day is a horror for multitudes of people across the globe.
    American people only tend to care about certain types of horror.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    I watched a great Farheed Zakaria doc on the rise of ISIS on CNN.Really interesting.They really go into the recruitment of the young male disenfranchised masses.Promising wives,money and power.These sheep are eating it up.The leadership is trying to convince them the west is at war with all Muslims.
    These Jack knobs really are twisted.What I found the most interesting was that defeat can be achieved from within as the people they rule over are not happy with the way they govern and rule.This may be the key
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,714
    rr165892 said:

    I watched a great Farheed Zakaria doc on the rise of ISIS on CNN.Really interesting.They really go into the recruitment of the young male disenfranchised masses.Promising wives,money and power.These sheep are eating it up.The leadership is trying to convince them the west is at war with all Muslims.
    These Jack knobs really are twisted.What I found the most interesting was that defeat can be achieved from within as the people they rule over are not happy with the way they govern and rule.This may be the key

    As well cutting off revenue streams. My thought is limit the damage to civilian infrastructure. Impede or destroy the means they use to "govern" , cold hard cash. Look at how and where the weapons systems are coming from (outside of the american shit dropped on the field by retreating forces.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • rr165892 said:

    I watched a great Farheed Zakaria doc on the rise of ISIS on CNN.Really interesting.They really go into the recruitment of the young male disenfranchised masses.Promising wives,money and power.These sheep are eating it up.The leadership is trying to convince them the west is at war with all Muslims.
    These Jack knobs really are twisted.What I found the most interesting was that defeat can be achieved from within as the people they rule over are not happy with the way they govern and rule.This may be the key

    Knowledge and education are key. When I was in the Middle East I noticed that there were many under educated people. My interpreter told me that not being educated is frowned upon.
    There is a very brutal dog eat dog world over there and I can see why the impoverished would gravitate towards ISIS.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    rr165892 said:

    I watched a great Farheed Zakaria doc on the rise of ISIS on CNN.Really interesting.They really go into the recruitment of the young male disenfranchised masses.Promising wives,money and power.These sheep are eating it up.The leadership is trying to convince them the west is at war with all Muslims.
    These Jack knobs really are twisted.What I found the most interesting was that defeat can be achieved from within as the people they rule over are not happy with the way they govern and rule.This may be the key

    USA USA USA!!! Oh we have our sheep as well.

    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    callen said:

    rr165892 said:

    I watched a great Farheed Zakaria doc on the rise of ISIS on CNN.Really interesting.They really go into the recruitment of the young male disenfranchised masses.Promising wives,money and power.These sheep are eating it up.The leadership is trying to convince them the west is at war with all Muslims.
    These Jack knobs really are twisted.What I found the most interesting was that defeat can be achieved from within as the people they rule over are not happy with the way they govern and rule.This may be the key

    USA USA USA!!! Oh we have our sheep as well.

    Cal,you know it's not mandatory when discussing the Islamic wackos to throw ourselves under the bus right?
    These radicals do enough bad shit without our help that we can talk about what's going on without always making it a blame shift.They can and should take full responsibility for their actions,regardless of what power vacuum the west created 15 years ago.
    It's not Americans teaching little kids to behead and kill(I'm aware some in our country do it to ourselves like inner city gang violence and kids committing crimes)
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    mickeyrat said:

    rr165892 said:

    I watched a great Farheed Zakaria doc on the rise of ISIS on CNN.Really interesting.They really go into the recruitment of the young male disenfranchised masses.Promising wives,money and power.These sheep are eating it up.The leadership is trying to convince them the west is at war with all Muslims.
    These Jack knobs really are twisted.What I found the most interesting was that defeat can be achieved from within as the people they rule over are not happy with the way they govern and rule.This may be the key

    As well cutting off revenue streams. My thought is limit the damage to civilian infrastructure. Impede or destroy the means they use to "govern" , cold hard cash. Look at how and where the weapons systems are coming from (outside of the american shit dropped on the field by retreating forces.
    I think you got the other part of it here Mickey.We need this too.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    rr165892 said:

    callen said:

    rr165892 said:

    I watched a great Farheed Zakaria doc on the rise of ISIS on CNN.Really interesting.They really go into the recruitment of the young male disenfranchised masses.Promising wives,money and power.These sheep are eating it up.The leadership is trying to convince them the west is at war with all Muslims.
    These Jack knobs really are twisted.What I found the most interesting was that defeat can be achieved from within as the people they rule over are not happy with the way they govern and rule.This may be the key

    USA USA USA!!! Oh we have our sheep as well.

    Cal,you know it's not mandatory when discussing the Islamic wackos to throw ourselves under the bus right?
    These radicals do enough bad shit without our help that we can talk about what's going on without always making it a blame shift.They can and should take full responsibility for their actions,regardless of what power vacuum the west created 15 years ago.
    It's not Americans teaching little kids to behead and kill(I'm aware some in our country do it to ourselves like inner city gang violence and kids committing crimes)
    Just pointing out we indoctrinate kids as well. And we do bomb and blow up little kids. And we also use religion as reason to kill.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Not the same.We don't indoctrinate them to kill in school and at such a young age.They live by medevil type rules,with barbaric shit.For all our faults We are NOTHING like that.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,714
    edited November 2015
    rr165892 said:

    Not the same.We don't indoctrinate them to kill in school and at such a young age.They live by medevil type rules,with barbaric shit.For all our faults We are NOTHING like that.

    no, we have a group of guys in nevada who go home every night after killing folks with drones.

    we also have a military that garners over 50% of our nations budget and of that , hundreds of millions is spent on advertizing.

    Same barbaric shit, just different clothes.
    Post edited by mickeyrat on
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 48,211
    edited November 2015
    mickeyrat said:

    rr165892 said:

    Not the same.We don't indoctrinate them to kill in school and at such a young age.They live by medevil type rules,with barbaric shit.For all our faults We are NOTHING like that.

    no, we have a group of guys in nevada who go home every night after killing folks with drones.

    we also have a military that garners over 50% of our nations budget and of that , hundreds of millions is spent on advertizing.

    Same barbaric shit, just different clothes.
    I recently learned through John Oliver that the military is actually arranging and paying for many of those live sports presentations where the stadium or arena honours military service. You know when they haul out flags, have soldiers sing national anthems or drop the puck, etc etc? The lottle ceremonies before games and at halftimes that pluck at the heart strings and get the nationalistic American hearts warm? Planned and paid for by Uncle Sam! Not that's some clever propaganda!
    Sick. I believe that the US military and government are in full swing brainwashing of the population mode.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul said:

    mickeyrat said:

    rr165892 said:

    Not the same.We don't indoctrinate them to kill in school and at such a young age.They live by medevil type rules,with barbaric shit.For all our faults We are NOTHING like that.

    no, we have a group of guys in nevada who go home every night after killing folks with drones.

    we also have a military that garners over 50% of our nations budget and of that , hundreds of millions is spent on advertizing.

    Same barbaric shit, just different clothes.
    I recently learned through John Oliver that the military is actually arranging and paying for many of those live sports presentations where the stadium or arena honours military service. You know when they haul out flags, have soldiers sing national anthems or drop the puck, etc etc? The lottle ceremonies before games and at halftimes that pluck at the heart strings and get the nationalistic American hearts warm? Planned and paid for by Uncle Sam! Not that's some clever propaganda!
    Sick. I believe that the US military and government are in full swing brainwashing of the population mode.
    I would love to drop bombs from drones on isis for my day job.
    It would be fantastic.
    I am happy to see the US recognize their military at public events - shows that they are equals.
    I don't believe for a second PJsoul that you would say these things to a service member.
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Mickey,are you fucking kidding me.A drone pilot is not a 7 year old beheading someone.And the human excrement they target are deserving.
    Pretty typical response though for some on here.I should be used to it by now.You guys can't critique the terrorists without coming back with a jab at the Americans.Its almost like you got relative over there or something.Makes me wonder.
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Cmon PJ,your better than that.
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