Paris Attacks

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  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,659
    edited November 2015

    BS44325 said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    dignin said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    But it's a good point. I don't actually find it funny. This whole issue is absolutely 100% infuriating to me.

    Agree with the infuriating as well though for it is a world war and people refuse to recognize...it has been for years. An enemy has engaged globally but we have yet decided to fully label the enemy or respond appropriately. Gunmen have just taken 170 hostages in Mali, American teenager killed in Israel yesterday along with four others, all this on top of the countless number of attacks that began on a regular basis since before this message board even existed. It is time for people on here to wake up to this fact. Until then it is impossible to even discuss solutions.
    Although the Mali attack appears to be Al-Qaeda, not ISIS.
    It's the ideology and not the group we're at war with.
    Exactly, and you can't win a war with ideology with guns and bombs.

    Yes you can
    Didn't work too well in Afghanistan. Or Vietnam.
    Yet it worked extremely well in Germany and Japan so go figure. It is about a commitment to winning and staying to secure the peace. Peace was secured in Iraq but then came withdrawal. If troops stayed ISIS would be on the ropes. This is dubbed the long war for a reason. A commitment to stay is necessary.
    So you would be ok for troops to be there for like the next what 50 yrs cause maybe by then you would change their ideology ....
    Yes
    Living in a country that is occupied with a foreign presence walking around with guns will not work.
    We were only in Japan for 6 years after the war, hardly a sustained presence.

  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    I know you didn't say those words, but that's the reality of it.

    I think anyone who loves their country puts their own people first. I see nothing wrong with this.
    It is this fractured sort of sentiment that allows war to happen over and over.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 25,279
    eddiec said:




    BS44325 said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    dignin said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    But it's a good point. I don't actually find it funny. This whole issue is absolutely 100% infuriating to me.

    Agree with the infuriating as well though for it is a world war and people refuse to recognize...it has been for years. An enemy has engaged globally but we have yet decided to fully label the enemy or respond appropriately. Gunmen have just taken 170 hostages in Mali, American teenager killed in Israel yesterday along with four others, all this on top of the countless number of attacks that began on a regular basis since before this message board even existed. It is time for people on here to wake up to this fact. Until then it is impossible to even discuss solutions.
    Although the Mali attack appears to be Al-Qaeda, not ISIS.
    It's the ideology and not the group we're at war with.
    Exactly, and you can't win a war with ideology with guns and bombs.

    Yes you can
    Didn't work too well in Afghanistan. Or Vietnam.
    Yet it worked extremely well in Germany and Japan so go figure. It is about a commitment to winning and staying to secure the peace. Peace was secured in Iraq but then came withdrawal. If troops stayed ISIS would be on the ropes. This is dubbed the long war for a reason. A commitment to stay is necessary.
    So you would be ok for troops to be there for like the next what 50 yrs cause maybe by then you would change their ideology ....
    Yes
    Living in a country that is occupied with a foreign presence walking around with guns will not work.
    We were only in Japan for 6 years after the war, hardly a sustained presence.

    Can Canada's military sustain such a mission?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    edited November 2015

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    I guess a lot of Americans feel the same way as I do: why do we have to compromise our safety to let even more refugees in, especially one's with possibly terrorist ties (even though it's the vast minority)? Why can't Muslim countries or any other country take these people in? Why does the United states always have to get involved with international problems when we have a plethora of domestic issues to solve? I.e. Thousands of homeless american vets yet we are going to provide housing and education for those emigrating to the united states from the middle east. I guess everyone has their breaking point and this seems to be it.

    The countries in the region are hosting millions of refugees, you are just echoing a right wing disinformation point. It is ironic too, considering it has clearly been the conservatives who block veterans bills every time they come up.
    I m no conservative; I ve voted democrat every time since 1996. However I did live through 9/11 like many other people and have learned not to be so trusting of people. I agree no one is against law abiding Syrian refugees but you can not guarantee an Isis fighter won't slip in with them.
    See by not allowing any of them in you do guarantee that a terrorist won't slip through.
    So let me get this straight... You aren't willing to gamble any American lives, but Syrian lives, they can be gambled with?
    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    Post edited by rgambs on
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PP193448PP193448 Springboro, OHPosts: 4,249
    edited November 2015
    PJ_Soul said:

    dignin said:

    PP193448 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    The correct policy is to take in refugees over here AND kick Islamist ass over there with a long term presence. Doing both is how you win...generosity and might.

    I agree in theory. I'm not sure about the ass kicking part though. I want ISIS's ass kicked obviously. Of course. Bunch if motherfuckers.... I'm just not convinced that waging the same kind of war that keeps failing is the way to do that. In fact, I suspect it will just make things worse (again). I don't know if there is any way to do it at all in terms of military action. Seems more like a massive social problem to me. Plus prevention, which is especially tough when we value freedom.
    It doesn't keep failing. It is just not the same as getting fast food. The problem with society today is we expect instant results. We want "peace" as fast as it takes to load this webpage. Change takes time. Security takes time. Osama bin laden called this the 100 Year War. Those who share his ideology understand this and we need to understand it as well.
    So you are advocating a perpetual, indefinite state of war and occupation. Mmmmkaaayy. Can't really say anything if that is where your head is.
    Do you think it will be possible for Syria to become a safe country without Western involvement? Unfortunately the West is going to need to come in, secure the region for 100 years while these punk-ass bitches die off, and reasonable Muslims can then have their land back when they have demonstrated for a few decades that they won't blow each other up. An old fashioned 'timeout' from the parents.
    Reasonable Muslims can have their land (their homelamd, their independent nations) back when they promise to do what they're told by Father Knows West? Oh gee, how generous. Can they also get some chocolate ice cream if they eat up all their spinach?
    The US just might get itself nuked if it does what you guys are talking about. The people in the middle east aren't fucking going to stand for that shit. You are talking about World War III. I don't see that as a good solution at all. It is the kind of xenophobic thinking that ISIS depends on to keep growing.
    That is an incorrect understanding of how ISIS keeps growing. It grows because it proselytizes about what is "Allah's will" and it uses its victories as evidence that they and their followers are on the right path. Victories over the west results in recruitment. As bin laden said people will tend to follow the "strong horse". When ISIS is handed losses through direct engagement numbers dry up...the surge and the anbar awakening proved this point.
    But dude, ISIS isn't going to dry up if the US swoops in and starts another disastrous war like that. They will spread out even more, building independent cells, and attracting alienated Muslim youth (and Muslim converts) from all over the world. It's pretty fucking easy to have "victories" over the west when a victory is a handful of homegrown guys strapping on homemade bombs and walking into some Starbucks during the morning rush.
    You know your comment can probably be used as concern for taking in refugees into other countries, especially Western, right??
    Not if your informed and have a basic understanding of how the refugee process works.
    Exactly. And also, I said homegrown. That specifically means not refugees by definition. So I suppose it could be used as concern if the person in question is refusing to use basic reasoning skills.
    So I guess if you apply those non reasoning skills you would also say that there would never ever be a refugee to make terror in your country. Great completely naive reasoning. So you blindly trust your government vetting process. I live in the US and don't trust the US government to do its job correctly. Example: Maybe explain to me why the IRS can't stop billions of dollars distributed to fraudulent tax claims, with so many identity theft issues where my local county sheriff dept actually carries tax ID theft forms in the police cars. How do I know... Cause my wife and I were victims. Now what kind of fucking IRS idiot would not red flag the fact that we haven't filed an EZ form in the past 12 years and that we have never direct deposited any refund. We had to prove to them that we didn't file a fraudulent claim. We spent more money to our CPA, more lost time filing forms and waiting in IRS office than worth the measly $350 tax return.
    Plus no one is held to blame for incompetence in government here. There is so much waste in the US government. Just keep throwing tax money into programs that are not working properly, increase more government jobs, spend spend spend. Politicians are corrupt. People are paid off by lobbyists for votes Democratic and Republican alike. So I'm supposed to believe that the US government vetting process will be done the way they say it will, even if on paper it looks like overkill. Give me a fucking break.
    Plus I never said that I wouldn't take refugees because of humanitarian issues. Take them all in Canada if you believe so strongly about it.
    Post edited by PP193448 on
    2006 Clev,Pitt; 2008 NY MSGx2; 2010 Columbus; 2012 Missoula; 2013 Phoenix,Vancouver,Seattle; 2014 Cincy; 2016 Lex, Wrigley 1&2; 2018 Wrigley 1&2
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,659
    PP193448 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    dignin said:

    PP193448 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    The correct policy is to take in refugees over here AND kick Islamist ass over there with a long term presence. Doing both is how you win...generosity and might.

    I agree in theory. I'm not sure about the ass kicking part though. I want ISIS's ass kicked obviously. Of course. Bunch if motherfuckers.... I'm just not convinced that waging the same kind of war that keeps failing is the way to do that. In fact, I suspect it will just make things worse (again). I don't know if there is any way to do it at all in terms of military action. Seems more like a massive social problem to me. Plus prevention, which is especially tough when we value freedom.
    It doesn't keep failing. It is just not the same as getting fast food. The problem with society today is we expect instant results. We want "peace" as fast as it takes to load this webpage. Change takes time. Security takes time. Osama bin laden called this the 100 Year War. Those who share his ideology understand this and we need to understand it as well.
    So you are advocating a perpetual, indefinite state of war and occupation. Mmmmkaaayy. Can't really say anything if that is where your head is.
    Do you think it will be possible for Syria to become a safe country without Western involvement? Unfortunately the West is going to need to come in, secure the region for 100 years while these punk-ass bitches die off, and reasonable Muslims can then have their land back when they have demonstrated for a few decades that they won't blow each other up. An old fashioned 'timeout' from the parents.
    Reasonable Muslims can have their land (their homelamd, their independent nations) back when they promise to do what they're told by Father Knows West? Oh gee, how generous. Can they also get some chocolate ice cream if they eat up all their spinach?
    The US just might get itself nuked if it does what you guys are talking about. The people in the middle east aren't fucking going to stand for that shit. You are talking about World War III. I don't see that as a good solution at all. It is the kind of xenophobic thinking that ISIS depends on to keep growing.
    That is an incorrect understanding of how ISIS keeps growing. It grows because it proselytizes about what is "Allah's will" and it uses its victories as evidence that they and their followers are on the right path. Victories over the west results in recruitment. As bin laden said people will tend to follow the "strong horse". When ISIS is handed losses through direct engagement numbers dry up...the surge and the anbar awakening proved this point.
    But dude, ISIS isn't going to dry up if the US swoops in and starts another disastrous war like that. They will spread out even more, building independent cells, and attracting alienated Muslim youth (and Muslim converts) from all over the world. It's pretty fucking easy to have "victories" over the west when a victory is a handful of homegrown guys strapping on homemade bombs and walking into some Starbucks during the morning rush.
    You know your comment can probably be used as concern for taking in refugees into other countries, especially Western, right??
    Not if your informed and have a basic understanding of how the refugee process works.
    Exactly. And also, I said homegrown. That specifically means not refugees by definition. So I suppose it could be used as concern if the person in question is refusing to use basic reasoning skills.
    So I guess if you apply those non reasoning skills you would also say that there would never ever be a refugee to make terror in your country. Great completely naive reasoning. So you blindly trust your government vetting process. I live in the US and don't trust the US government to do its job correctly. Example: Maybe explain to me why the IRS can't stop billions of dollars distributed to fraudulent tax claims, with so many identity theft issues where my local county sheriff dept actually carries tax ID theft forms in the police cars. How do I know... Cause my wife and I were victims. Now what kind of fucking IRS idiot would not red flag the fact that we haven't filed an EZ form in the past 12 years and that we have never direct deposited any refund. We had to prove to them that we didn't file a fraudulent claim. We spent more money to our CPA, more lost time filing forms and waiting in IRS office than worth the measly $350 tax return.
    Plus no one is held to blame for incompetence in government here. There is so much waste in the US government. Just keep throwing tax money into programs that are not working properly, increase more government jobs, spend spend spend. Politicians are corrupt. People are paid off by lobbyists for votes Democratic and Republican alike. So I'm supposed to believe that the US government vetting process will be done the way they say it will, even if on paper it looks like overkill. Give me a fucking break.
    Plus I never said that I wouldn't take refugees because of humanitarian issues. Take them all in Canada if you believe so strongly about it.
    But at this moment in time there hasn't been a flaw in the vetting process and 35% of our refugees last year came from Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq. Should we stop taking those refugees as well? Loads of terrorists in those countries last time I checked.

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 25,279
    post just because . Didnt like where we were on the comment count/
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,106
    edited November 2015
    BS44325 said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    dignin said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    But it's a good point. I don't actually find it funny. This whole issue is absolutely 100% infuriating to me.

    Agree with the infuriating as well though for it is a world war and people refuse to recognize...it has been for years. An enemy has engaged globally but we have yet decided to fully label the enemy or respond appropriately. Gunmen have just taken 170 hostages in Mali, American teenager killed in Israel yesterday along with four others, all this on top of the countless number of attacks that began on a regular basis since before this message board even existed. It is time for people on here to wake up to this fact. Until then it is impossible to even discuss solutions.
    Although the Mali attack appears to be Al-Qaeda, not ISIS.
    It's the ideology and not the group we're at war with.
    Exactly, and you can't win a war with ideology with guns and bombs.

    Yes you can
    Didn't work too well in Afghanistan. Or Vietnam.
    Yet it worked extremely well in Germany and Japan so go figure. It is about a commitment to winning and staying to secure the peace. Peace was secured in Iraq but then came withdrawal. If troops stayed ISIS would be on the ropes. This is dubbed the long war for a reason. A commitment to stay is necessary.
    So you would be ok for troops to be there for like the next what 50 yrs cause maybe by then you would change their ideology ....
    Yes
    Living in a country that is occupied with a foreign presence walking around with guns will not work.
    We were only in Japan for 6 years after the war, hardly a sustained presence.



    You are aware that the US currently has approximately 23 military bases in Japan right now?
    Post edited by BS44325 on
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,106
    This article should be read in full by anyone who wants a real in depth look at the current crisis.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-crisis-of-world-order-1448052095

    The author isn't Canadian so maybe it won't offend you to read it.
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 3,659
    edited November 2015
    BS44325 said:



    BS44325 said:



    You are aware that the US currently has approximately 23 military bases in Japan right now?
    And we had one in Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. So what?
    Are you implying that we have bases there in case Japan wants to attack again?

    Post edited by eddiec on
  • PP193448PP193448 Springboro, OHPosts: 4,249
    eddiec said:

    PP193448 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    dignin said:

    PP193448 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    The correct policy is to take in refugees over here AND kick Islamist ass over there with a long term presence. Doing both is how you win...generosity and might.

    I agree in theory. I'm not sure about the ass kicking part though. I want ISIS's ass kicked obviously. Of course. Bunch if motherfuckers.... I'm just not convinced that waging the same kind of war that keeps failing is the way to do that. In fact, I suspect it will just make things worse (again). I don't know if there is any way to do it at all in terms of military action. Seems more like a massive social problem to me. Plus prevention, which is especially tough when we value freedom.
    It doesn't keep failing. It is just not the same as getting fast food. The problem with society today is we expect instant results. We want "peace" as fast as it takes to load this webpage. Change takes time. Security takes time. Osama bin laden called this the 100 Year War. Those who share his ideology understand this and we need to understand it as well.
    So you are advocating a perpetual, indefinite state of war and occupation. Mmmmkaaayy. Can't really say anything if that is where your head is.
    Do you think it will be possible for Syria to become a safe country without Western involvement? Unfortunately the West is going to need to come in, secure the region for 100 years while these punk-ass bitches die off, and reasonable Muslims can then have their land back when they have demonstrated for a few decades that they won't blow each other up. An old fashioned 'timeout' from the parents.
    Reasonable Muslims can have their land (their homelamd, their independent nations) back when they promise to do what they're told by Father Knows West? Oh gee, how generous. Can they also get some chocolate ice cream if they eat up all their spinach?
    The US just might get itself nuked if it does what you guys are talking about. The people in the middle east aren't fucking going to stand for that shit. You are talking about World War III. I don't see that as a good solution at all. It is the kind of xenophobic thinking that ISIS depends on to keep growing.
    That is an incorrect understanding of how ISIS keeps growing. It grows because it proselytizes about what is "Allah's will" and it uses its victories as evidence that they and their followers are on the right path. Victories over the west results in recruitment. As bin laden said people will tend to follow the "strong horse". When ISIS is handed losses through direct engagement numbers dry up...the surge and the anbar awakening proved this point.
    But dude, ISIS isn't going to dry up if the US swoops in and starts another disastrous war like that. They will spread out even more, building independent cells, and attracting alienated Muslim youth (and Muslim converts) from all over the world. It's pretty fucking easy to have "victories" over the west when a victory is a handful of homegrown guys strapping on homemade bombs and walking into some Starbucks during the morning rush.
    You know your comment can probably be used as concern for taking in refugees into other countries, especially Western, right??
    Not if your informed and have a basic understanding of how the refugee process works.
    Exactly. And also, I said homegrown. That specifically means not refugees by definition. So I suppose it could be used as concern if the person in question is refusing to use basic reasoning skills.
    So I guess if you apply those non reasoning skills you would also say that there would never ever be a refugee to make terror in your country. Great completely naive reasoning. So you blindly trust your government vetting process. I live in the US and don't trust the US government to do its job correctly. Example: Maybe explain to me why the IRS can't stop billions of dollars distributed to fraudulent tax claims, with so many identity theft issues where my local county sheriff dept actually carries tax ID theft forms in the police cars. How do I know... Cause my wife and I were victims. Now what kind of fucking IRS idiot would not red flag the fact that we haven't filed an EZ form in the past 12 years and that we have never direct deposited any refund. We had to prove to them that we didn't file a fraudulent claim. We spent more money to our CPA, more lost time filing forms and waiting in IRS office than worth the measly $350 tax return.
    Plus no one is held to blame for incompetence in government here. There is so much waste in the US government. Just keep throwing tax money into programs that are not working properly, increase more government jobs, spend spend spend. Politicians are corrupt. People are paid off by lobbyists for votes Democratic and Republican alike. So I'm supposed to believe that the US government vetting process will be done the way they say it will, even if on paper it looks like overkill. Give me a fucking break.
    Plus I never said that I wouldn't take refugees because of humanitarian issues. Take them all in Canada if you believe so strongly about it.
    But at this moment in time there hasn't been a flaw in the vetting process and 35% of our refugees last year came from Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq. Should we stop taking those refugees as well? Loads of terrorists in those countries last time I checked.

    Great. So far so good over 1 year then. Maybe it takes little longer to plan multi site terrorist attacks. Maybe it's mass hysteria and not one refugee will ever be connected to any terrorist plot. I'm not saying that I think it's not the right thing to do. All I'm saying is that I don't trust the US government to not cut corners and hold people responsible for errors.
    2006 Clev,Pitt; 2008 NY MSGx2; 2010 Columbus; 2012 Missoula; 2013 Phoenix,Vancouver,Seattle; 2014 Cincy; 2016 Lex, Wrigley 1&2; 2018 Wrigley 1&2
  • rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    I guess a lot of Americans feel the same way as I do: why do we have to compromise our safety to let even more refugees in, especially one's with possibly terrorist ties (even though it's the vast minority)? Why can't Muslim countries or any other country take these people in? Why does the United states always have to get involved with international problems when we have a plethora of domestic issues to solve? I.e. Thousands of homeless american vets yet we are going to provide housing and education for those emigrating to the united states from the middle east. I guess everyone has their breaking point and this seems to be it.

    The countries in the region are hosting millions of refugees, you are just echoing a right wing disinformation point. It is ironic too, considering it has clearly been the conservatives who block veterans bills every time they come up.
    I m no conservative; I ve voted democrat every time since 1996. However I did live through 9/11 like many other people and have learned not to be so trusting of people. I agree no one is against law abiding Syrian refugees but you can not guarantee an Isis fighter won't slip in with them.
    See by not allowing any of them in you do guarantee that a terrorist won't slip through.
    So let me get this straight... You aren't willing to gamble any American lives, but Syrian lives, they can be gambled with?
    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,289

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    I guess a lot of Americans feel the same way as I do: why do we have to compromise our safety to let even more refugees in, especially one's with possibly terrorist ties (even though it's the vast minority)? Why can't Muslim countries or any other country take these people in? Why does the United states always have to get involved with international problems when we have a plethora of domestic issues to solve? I.e. Thousands of homeless american vets yet we are going to provide housing and education for those emigrating to the united states from the middle east. I guess everyone has their breaking point and this seems to be it.

    The countries in the region are hosting millions of refugees, you are just echoing a right wing disinformation point. It is ironic too, considering it has clearly been the conservatives who block veterans bills every time they come up.
    I m no conservative; I ve voted democrat every time since 1996. However I did live through 9/11 like many other people and have learned not to be so trusting of people. I agree no one is against law abiding Syrian refugees but you can not guarantee an Isis fighter won't slip in with them.
    See by not allowing any of them in you do guarantee that a terrorist won't slip through.
    So let me get this straight... You aren't willing to gamble any American lives, but Syrian lives, they can be gambled with?
    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    I shouldn't even have to tell you how ridiculous this argument is.
  • dignin said:


    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    I guess a lot of Americans feel the same way as I do: why do we have to compromise our safety to let even more refugees in, especially one's with possibly terrorist ties (even though it's the vast minority)? Why can't Muslim countries or any other country take these people in? Why does the United states always have to get involved with international problems when we have a plethora of domestic issues to solve? I.e. Thousands of homeless american vets yet we are going to provide housing and education for those emigrating to the united states from the middle east. I guess everyone has their breaking point and this seems to be it.

    The countries in the region are hosting millions of refugees, you are just echoing a right wing disinformation point. It is ironic too, considering it has clearly been the conservatives who block veterans bills every time they come up.
    I m no conservative; I ve voted democrat every time since 1996. However I did live through 9/11 like many other people and have learned not to be so trusting of people. I agree no one is against law abiding Syrian refugees but you can not guarantee an Isis fighter won't slip in with them.
    See by not allowing any of them in you do guarantee that a terrorist won't slip through.
    So let me get this straight... You aren't willing to gamble any American lives, but Syrian lives, they can be gambled with?
    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    I shouldn't even have to tell you how ridiculous this argument is.
    You probably don't understand what's being said, Dig.

    In the event you don't... I'm just speaking to the slight hypocrisy in RG's rather pompous post that made Scruffy out to be an asshole.

    Lately... any counter position to the Liberal left free flow is met with scorn and disdain. I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with the sentiments behind what is being expressed from the aforementioned... I'm more saying I disagree with the lack of efforts to understand and acknowledge the varying perspectives.

    Who's right in this discussion? I feel it is the side advocating for meaningful assistance, but I'm not so arrogant to think that any position to the contrary is completely out to lunch (excluding the extreme nonsense that pokes its head out periodically- which Scruffy's wasn't).
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,289
    This is the most detailed account I have read about the attack on the Bataclan.

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/abf1356f6b9743518a302da14fbf44eb/horror-panic-heroism-bataclan-nexus-paris-attacks
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    I guess a lot of Americans feel the same way as I do: why do we have to compromise our safety to let even more refugees in, especially one's with possibly terrorist ties (even though it's the vast minority)? Why can't Muslim countries or any other country take these people in? Why does the United states always have to get involved with international problems when we have a plethora of domestic issues to solve? I.e. Thousands of homeless american vets yet we are going to provide housing and education for those emigrating to the united states from the middle east. I guess everyone has their breaking point and this seems to be it.

    The countries in the region are hosting millions of refugees, you are just echoing a right wing disinformation point. It is ironic too, considering it has clearly been the conservatives who block veterans bills every time they come up.
    I m no conservative; I ve voted democrat every time since 1996. However I did live through 9/11 like many other people and have learned not to be so trusting of people. I agree no one is against law abiding Syrian refugees but you can not guarantee an Isis fighter won't slip in with them.
    See by not allowing any of them in you do guarantee that a terrorist won't slip through.
    So let me get this straight... You aren't willing to gamble any American lives, but Syrian lives, they can be gambled with?
    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    That's a fair assessment, but I think the distinction you made makes all the difference. We are talking about lives hanging in the balance, denying all refugees entry will surely cause death and massive suffering of them, letting them in might cause death and suffering for us.
    The risk to us is a risk that many are willing to take, and many others are not willing to risk American lives but they don't seem to have a problem with the inevitabilcity of suffering among Syrians.
    I think it's fair to point out this is inherently placing less value on foreign lives, especially since most of the people I have seen expressing this sentiment don't seem to have thought it through to it's conclusion.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 26,395
    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    I guess a lot of Americans feel the same way as I do: why do we have to compromise our safety to let even more refugees in, especially one's with possibly terrorist ties (even though it's the vast minority)? Why can't Muslim countries or any other country take these people in? Why does the United states always have to get involved with international problems when we have a plethora of domestic issues to solve? I.e. Thousands of homeless american vets yet we are going to provide housing and education for those emigrating to the united states from the middle east. I guess everyone has their breaking point and this seems to be it.

    The countries in the region are hosting millions of refugees, you are just echoing a right wing disinformation point. It is ironic too, considering it has clearly been the conservatives who block veterans bills every time they come up.
    I m no conservative; I ve voted democrat every time since 1996. However I did live through 9/11 like many other people and have learned not to be so trusting of people. I agree no one is against law abiding Syrian refugees but you can not guarantee an Isis fighter won't slip in with them.
    See by not allowing any of them in you do guarantee that a terrorist won't slip through.
    So let me get this straight... You aren't willing to gamble any American lives, but Syrian lives, they can be gambled with?
    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    That's a fair assessment, but I think the distinction you made makes all the difference. We are talking about lives hanging in the balance, denying all refugees entry will surely cause death and massive suffering of them, letting them in might cause death and suffering for us.
    The risk to us is a risk that many are willing to take, and many others are not willing to risk American lives but they don't seem to have a problem with the inevitabilcity of suffering among Syrians.
    I think it's fair to point out this is inherently placing less value on foreign lives, especially since most of the people I have seen expressing this sentiment don't seem to have thought it through to it's conclusion.
    How exactly are Syrian refugees suffering or dying If they are settling in another country that is willing to take them in?
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 25,279
    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    I guess a lot of Americans feel the same way as I do: why do we have to compromise our safety to let even more refugees in, especially one's with possibly terrorist ties (even though it's the vast minority)? Why can't Muslim countries or any other country take these people in? Why does the United states always have to get involved with international problems when we have a plethora of domestic issues to solve? I.e. Thousands of homeless american vets yet we are going to provide housing and education for those emigrating to the united states from the middle east. I guess everyone has their breaking point and this seems to be it.

    The countries in the region are hosting millions of refugees, you are just echoing a right wing disinformation point. It is ironic too, considering it has clearly been the conservatives who block veterans bills every time they come up.
    I m no conservative; I ve voted democrat every time since 1996. However I did live through 9/11 like many other people and have learned not to be so trusting of people. I agree no one is against law abiding Syrian refugees but you can not guarantee an Isis fighter won't slip in with them.
    See by not allowing any of them in you do guarantee that a terrorist won't slip through.
    So let me get this straight... You aren't willing to gamble any American lives, but Syrian lives, they can be gambled with?
    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    That's a fair assessment, but I think the distinction you made makes all the difference. We are talking about lives hanging in the balance, denying all refugees entry will surely cause death and massive suffering of them, letting them in might cause death and suffering for us.
    The risk to us is a risk that many are willing to take, and many others are not willing to risk American lives but they don't seem to have a problem with the inevitabilcity of suffering among Syrians.
    I think it's fair to point out this is inherently placing less value on foreign lives, especially since most of the people I have seen expressing this sentiment don't seem to have thought it through to it's conclusion.
    How exactly are Syrian refugees suffering or dying If they are settling in another country that is willing to take them in?
    Lets see..2 million in Turkey , where the pool of people are we are begining the process of vetting for resettlement.

    Est 3 million more on the move mostly to Europe. Another est 7 million more internally displaced within Syria.

    So considering those in Turkey where they have been under armed guard for quite some time for settlement seems dangerous?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 48,582
    edited November 2015
    PP193448 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    dignin said:

    PP193448 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    The correct policy is to take in refugees over here AND kick Islamist ass over there with a long term presence. Doing both is how you win...generosity and might.

    I agree in theory. I'm not sure about the ass kicking part though. I want ISIS's ass kicked obviously. Of course. Bunch if motherfuckers.... I'm just not convinced that waging the same kind of war that keeps failing is the way to do that. In fact, I suspect it will just make things worse (again). I don't know if there is any way to do it at all in terms of military action. Seems more like a massive social problem to me. Plus prevention, which is especially tough when we value freedom.
    It doesn't keep failing. It is just not the same as getting fast food. The problem with society today is we expect instant results. We want "peace" as fast as it takes to load this webpage. Change takes time. Security takes time. Osama bin laden called this the 100 Year War. Those who share his ideology understand this and we need to understand it as well.
    So you are advocating a perpetual, indefinite state of war and occupation. Mmmmkaaayy. Can't really say anything if that is where your head is.
    Do you think it will be possible for Syria to become a safe country without Western involvement? Unfortunately the West is going to need to come in, secure the region for 100 years while these punk-ass bitches die off, and reasonable Muslims can then have their land back when they have demonstrated for a few decades that they won't blow each other up. An old fashioned 'timeout' from the parents.
    Reasonable Muslims can have their land (their homelamd, their independent nations) back when they promise to do what they're told by Father Knows West? Oh gee, how generous. Can they also get some chocolate ice cream if they eat up all their spinach?
    The US just might get itself nuked if it does what you guys are talking about. The people in the middle east aren't fucking going to stand for that shit. You are talking about World War III. I don't see that as a good solution at all. It is the kind of xenophobic thinking that ISIS depends on to keep growing.
    That is an incorrect understanding of how ISIS keeps growing. It grows because it proselytizes about what is "Allah's will" and it uses its victories as evidence that they and their followers are on the right path. Victories over the west results in recruitment. As bin laden said people will tend to follow the "strong horse". When ISIS is handed losses through direct engagement numbers dry up...the surge and the anbar awakening proved this point.
    But dude, ISIS isn't going to dry up if the US swoops in and starts another disastrous war like that. They will spread out even more, building independent cells, and attracting alienated Muslim youth (and Muslim converts) from all over the world. It's pretty fucking easy to have "victories" over the west when a victory is a handful of homegrown guys strapping on homemade bombs and walking into some Starbucks during the morning rush.
    You know your comment can probably be used as concern for taking in refugees into other countries, especially Western, right??
    Not if your informed and have a basic understanding of how the refugee process works.
    Exactly. And also, I said homegrown. That specifically means not refugees by definition. So I suppose it could be used as concern if the person in question is refusing to use basic reasoning skills.
    So I guess if you apply those non reasoning skills you would also say that there would never ever be a refugee to make terror in your country. Great completely naive reasoning. So you blindly trust your government vetting process. I live in the US and don't trust the US government to do its job correctly. Example: Maybe explain to me why the IRS can't stop billions of dollars distributed to fraudulent tax claims, with so many identity theft issues where my local county sheriff dept actually carries tax ID theft forms in the police cars. How do I know... Cause my wife and I were victims. Now what kind of fucking IRS idiot would not red flag the fact that we haven't filed an EZ form in the past 12 years and that we have never direct deposited any refund. We had to prove to them that we didn't file a fraudulent claim. We spent more money to our CPA, more lost time filing forms and waiting in IRS office than worth the measly $350 tax return.
    Plus no one is held to blame for incompetence in government here. There is so much waste in the US government. Just keep throwing tax money into programs that are not working properly, increase more government jobs, spend spend spend. Politicians are corrupt. People are paid off by lobbyists for votes Democratic and Republican alike. So I'm supposed to believe that the US government vetting process will be done the way they say it will, even if on paper it looks like overkill. Give me a fucking break.
    Plus I never said that I wouldn't take refugees because of humanitarian issues. Take them all in Canada if you believe so strongly about it.
    Nope, never said any of that and you guess wrong (and i have to assume you aren't paying any attention). As rgambs has been discussing, I don't put Canadian lies over the loves of non-Canadians. I have also already said that IF bringing in refugees somehow results in any of them being involved in a terror attack, I would have absolutely no regrets, because I know that if t hadn't happened that way, it would have been done some other way. Blocking refugees will prevent nothing. It will only increase suffering.

    Of course, I have no direct hand in refugees coming to Canada, so don't know why you would suggest that I take them all in, but I completely support and champion the 25,000 that are coming before the new year (although I think they'll get backed up and will still be working on it come Jan 1st, despite all efforts), and I believe Canada will welcome more after that.

    Oh, and sorry, there is no way getting around this being a humanitarian issue, no matter how you try to make yourself feel better about rejecting people in need.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 26,395
    mickeyrat said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    I guess a lot of Americans feel the same way as I do: why do we have to compromise our safety to let even more refugees in, especially one's with possibly terrorist ties (even though it's the vast minority)? Why can't Muslim countries or any other country take these people in? Why does the United states always have to get involved with international problems when we have a plethora of domestic issues to solve? I.e. Thousands of homeless american vets yet we are going to provide housing and education for those emigrating to the united states from the middle east. I guess everyone has their breaking point and this seems to be it.

    The countries in the region are hosting millions of refugees, you are just echoing a right wing disinformation point. It is ironic too, considering it has clearly been the conservatives who block veterans bills every time they come up.
    I m no conservative; I ve voted democrat every time since 1996. However I did live through 9/11 like many other people and have learned not to be so trusting of people. I agree no one is against law abiding Syrian refugees but you can not guarantee an Isis fighter won't slip in with them.
    See by not allowing any of them in you do guarantee that a terrorist won't slip through.
    So let me get this straight... You aren't willing to gamble any American lives, but Syrian lives, they can be gambled with?
    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    That's a fair assessment, but I think the distinction you made makes all the difference. We are talking about lives hanging in the balance, denying all refugees entry will surely cause death and massive suffering of them, letting them in might cause death and suffering for us.
    The risk to us is a risk that many are willing to take, and many others are not willing to risk American lives but they don't seem to have a problem with the inevitabilcity of suffering among Syrians.
    I think it's fair to point out this is inherently placing less value on foreign lives, especially since most of the people I have seen expressing this sentiment don't seem to have thought it through to it's conclusion.
    How exactly are Syrian refugees suffering or dying If they are settling in another country that is willing to take them in?
    Lets see..2 million in Turkey , where the pool of people are we are begining the process of vetting for resettlement.

    Est 3 million more on the move mostly to Europe. Another est 7 million more internally displaced within Syria.

    So considering those in Turkey where they have been under armed guard for quite some time for settlement seems dangerous?
    Why exactly are they under armed guard? And again, where s the death and suffering in all these countries you speak of?
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 48,582
    edited November 2015
    mickeyrat said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    I guess a lot of Americans feel the same way as I do: why do we have to compromise our safety to let even more refugees in, especially one's with possibly terrorist ties (even though it's the vast minority)? Why can't Muslim countries or any other country take these people in? Why does the United states always have to get involved with international problems when we have a plethora of domestic issues to solve? I.e. Thousands of homeless american vets yet we are going to provide housing and education for those emigrating to the united states from the middle east. I guess everyone has their breaking point and this seems to be it.

    The countries in the region are hosting millions of refugees, you are just echoing a right wing disinformation point. It is ironic too, considering it has clearly been the conservatives who block veterans bills every time they come up.
    I m no conservative; I ve voted democrat every time since 1996. However I did live through 9/11 like many other people and have learned not to be so trusting of people. I agree no one is against law abiding Syrian refugees but you can not guarantee an Isis fighter won't slip in with them.
    See by not allowing any of them in you do guarantee that a terrorist won't slip through.
    So let me get this straight... You aren't willing to gamble any American lives, but Syrian lives, they can be gambled with?
    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    That's a fair assessment, but I think the distinction you made makes all the difference. We are talking about lives hanging in the balance, denying all refugees entry will surely cause death and massive suffering of them, letting them in might cause death and suffering for us.
    The risk to us is a risk that many are willing to take, and many others are not willing to risk American lives but they don't seem to have a problem with the inevitabilcity of suffering among Syrians.
    I think it's fair to point out this is inherently placing less value on foreign lives, especially since most of the people I have seen expressing this sentiment don't seem to have thought it through to it's conclusion.
    How exactly are Syrian refugees suffering or dying If they are settling in another country that is willing to take them in?
    Lets see..2 million in Turkey , where the pool of people are we are begining the process of vetting for resettlement.

    Est 3 million more on the move mostly to Europe. Another est 7 million more internally displaced within Syria.

    So considering those in Turkey where they have been under armed guard for quite some time for settlement seems dangerous?
    It's not just dangerous. There are food shortages. Children are becoming malnourished, and now Turkey has been forced to withdraw free medical services, while the refugees have no money at all and zero opportunity to work, so people are now literally dying because of simple lack of medical care. Meanwhile, more refugees arrive every day, with no space for them, now no medical care, not even for children who have been trekking on foot for god knows how long... plus it is now winter, and they are starting to freeze.
    Oh yeah, no biggie. No need to get them the fuck ot of there NOW to relieve their fear, stress, and suffering. They're just Syrians after all.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PP193448PP193448 Springboro, OHPosts: 4,249
    Good luck in here Mcgruff... To many people riding around on their self righteous high horses acting like no one with any opinion other than theirs give a rats ass about humanitarianism. No one knows anything at all about what each other donates, votes, or even does for a living. But yet comment like you are a better person. Ridiculous. Later.
    2006 Clev,Pitt; 2008 NY MSGx2; 2010 Columbus; 2012 Missoula; 2013 Phoenix,Vancouver,Seattle; 2014 Cincy; 2016 Lex, Wrigley 1&2; 2018 Wrigley 1&2
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,276
    edited November 2015
    PP193448 said:

    Good luck in here Mcgruff... To many people riding around on their self righteous high horses acting like no one with any opinion other than theirs give a rats ass about humanitarianism. No one knows anything at all about what each other donates, votes, or even does for a living. But yet comment like you are a better person. Ridiculous. Later.

    Really? I would say the vast majority of those who post here have concern for others but show or express it in different ways. Just as one example, Mr. McGruff and I have had differing opinions on issues here on AMT but we do show respect for each others opinions.

    I don't see the usefulness is harshly bashing a group of people with one broad stroke of the brush.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 48,582
    FWIW, I don't always respect the opinions of others - that depends on the opinion in question. But i ALWAYS respect others' right to their opinion, and their right to express it any way they see fit. That includes opinions about opinions about opinions about opinions.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,276
    PJ_Soul said:

    FWIW, I don't always respect the opinions of others - that depends on the opinion in question. But i ALWAYS respect others' right to their opinion, and their right to express it any way they see fit. That includes opinions about opinions about opinions about opinions.

    Yes, that's even closer to what I was trying to get to. Thank you for keeping me on my toes, YET AGAIN! PJ_Soul. :plus_one: :lol:
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 26,395
    edited November 2015
    PJ_Soul said:

    mickeyrat said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    I guess a lot of Americans feel the same way as I do: why do we have to compromise our safety to let even more refugees in, especially one's with possibly terrorist ties (even though it's the vast minority)? Why can't Muslim countries or any other country take these people in? Why does the United states always have to get involved with international problems when we have a plethora of domestic issues to solve? I.e. Thousands of homeless american vets yet we are going to provide housing and education for those emigrating to the united states from the middle east. I guess everyone has their breaking point and this seems to be it.

    The countries in the region are hosting millions of refugees, you are just echoing a right wing disinformation point. It is ironic too, considering it has clearly been the conservatives who block veterans bills every time they come up.
    I m no conservative; I ve voted democrat every time since 1996. However I did live through 9/11 like many other people and have learned not to be so trusting of people. I agree no one is against law abiding Syrian refugees but you can not guarantee an Isis fighter won't slip in with them.
    See by not allowing any of them in you do guarantee that a terrorist won't slip through.
    So let me get this straight... You aren't willing to gamble any American lives, but Syrian lives, they can be gambled with?
    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    That's a fair assessment, but I think the distinction you made makes all the difference. We are talking about lives hanging in the balance, denying all refugees entry will surely cause death and massive suffering of them, letting them in might cause death and suffering for us.
    The risk to us is a risk that many are willing to take, and many others are not willing to risk American lives but they don't seem to have a problem with the inevitabilcity of suffering among Syrians.
    I think it's fair to point out this is inherently placing less value on foreign lives, especially since most of the people I have seen expressing this sentiment don't seem to have thought it through to it's conclusion.
    How exactly are Syrian refugees suffering or dying If they are settling in another country that is willing to take them in?
    Lets see..2 million in Turkey , where the pool of people are we are begining the process of vetting for resettlement.

    Est 3 million more on the move mostly to Europe. Another est 7 million more internally displaced within Syria.

    So considering those in Turkey where they have been under armed guard for quite some time for settlement seems dangerous?
    It's not just dangerous. There are food shortages. Children are becoming malnourished, and now Turkey has been forced to withdraw free medical services, while the refugees have no money at all and zero opportunity to work, so people are now literally dying because of simple lack of medical care. Meanwhile, more refugees arrive every day, with no space for them, now no medical care, not even for children who have been trekking on foot for god knows how long... plus it is now winter, and they are starting to freeze.
    Oh yeah, no biggie. No need to get them the fuck ot of there NOW to relieve their fear, stress, and suffering. They're just Syrians after all.
    Hey Rachel Maddows, I want you to read an article my high school buddy sent to me. I am not a veteran but this guy was a navy seal for around ten years. He was in afghanistan, iraq and every other shit hole on this planet and he says the author is spot on. it's definitely a good read and gives a point of view that many of us have not experienced.
    http://www.unprecedentedmediocrity.com/what-gwot-veterans-really-think-about-middle-eastern-refugees/
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,289
    edited November 2015

    dignin said:


    rgambs said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    rgambs said:

    mcgruff10 said:

    I guess a lot of Americans feel the same way as I do: why do we have to compromise our safety to let even more refugees in, especially one's with possibly terrorist ties (even though it's the vast minority)? Why can't Muslim countries or any other country take these people in? Why does the United states always have to get involved with international problems when we have a plethora of domestic issues to solve? I.e. Thousands of homeless american vets yet we are going to provide housing and education for those emigrating to the united states from the middle east. I guess everyone has their breaking point and this seems to be it.

    The countries in the region are hosting millions of refugees, you are just echoing a right wing disinformation point. It is ironic too, considering it has clearly been the conservatives who block veterans bills every time they come up.
    I m no conservative; I ve voted democrat every time since 1996. However I did live through 9/11 like many other people and have learned not to be so trusting of people. I agree no one is against law abiding Syrian refugees but you can not guarantee an Isis fighter won't slip in with them.
    See by not allowing any of them in you do guarantee that a terrorist won't slip through.
    So let me get this straight... You aren't willing to gamble any American lives, but Syrian lives, they can be gambled with?
    This makes no sense- its an unfair question.

    Not that 'gambling' is the operative term for this situation... would you flip a coin to determine the well being of your child versus another, RG? Does your child hold a special place in your heart?

    I'm assuming from this post that your child holds no more value than any other child. This is why I ask. If I am wrong... you should retract your rather arrogant statement where you challenged another for holding such a selfish position.
    Of course it makes sense. Refusing to accept any refugees makes a virtual certainty that some Syrian lives (children?) that would have been saved will be lost, that refusal, on the chance that some strangers might be killed as a result in this country, is a gamble on Syrian lives.
    That is placing less value on Syrian lives than American lives any way you slice it.

    The business of flipping a coin over my child is the unfair question that lacks sense. In an acute scenario where I have to choose my child over another, of course I won't flip the coin. That has nothing to do with flipping the coin to allow refugee children into this country with the infinitesimally small chance that another refugee will harm my son... I will flip that coin all day long.
    Yes, my own son takes precedence, but strangers sons are all of equal value to me, whatever color and origin they happen to have.
    So you and McScruffy feel the same- instinctually protective of your own versus another: you in more 'acute' scenarios... him in more 'broader' scenarios.
    I shouldn't even have to tell you how ridiculous this argument is.
    You probably don't understand what's being said, Dig.

    In the event you don't... I'm just speaking to the slight hypocrisy in RG's rather pompous post that made Scruffy out to be an asshole.

    Lately... any counter position to the Liberal left free flow is met with scorn and disdain. I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with the sentiments behind what is being expressed from the aforementioned... I'm more saying I disagree with the lack of efforts to understand and acknowledge the varying perspectives.

    Who's right in this discussion? I feel it is the side advocating for meaningful assistance, but I'm not so arrogant to think that any position to the contrary is completely out to lunch (excluding the extreme nonsense that pokes its head out periodically- which Scruffy's wasn't).
    Maybe I missed the gist of what was being said. If I did, I apologize.

    I don't see how this is a Liberal vs. Conservative issue. I know a lot of conservatives (religious) who see this as a humanitarian issue and they want to help. Most of the organizations sponsoring refugees in my area are religious ones.

    I see people getting pissed at the misinformation happening around here and everywhere. I am always willing to discuss in a polite way with someone who has an informed opinion. It's frustrating discussing an issue with someone when they are not informed.

    I understand that is a very emotional issue. But I still find it hard to believe that someone, given all the facts, can still be rationally afraid of these refugees. I can see where this irrational fear comes from, the media and politicians with an agenda. I'm just disappointed that so many fall for it. It reminds of just after 9/11. How that shock and fear after the attacks was used to make bad decisions.
    Post edited by dignin on
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 26,395
    edited November 2015
    PP193448 said:

    Good luck in here Mcgruff... To many people riding around on their self righteous high horses acting like no one with any opinion other than theirs give a rats ass about humanitarianism. No one knows anything at all about what each other donates, votes, or even does for a living. But yet comment like you are a better person. Ridiculous. Later.

    thanks bud. This thread reminds me of the "america's gun violence" thread. there's definitely some really cool people that I'd love to sit down with and actually discuss an issue in an intellectual way (brian, del, bad brains!, PP) and there's other's that are simply not worth replying to. They are the The kind that you present evidence too but they ignore it or it's their way or the high way or you are an obvious racist with no compassion. Actually my favorite is when people counter a question with a question.
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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