Canadian Politics Redux

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  • Interesting thing we have learned in Argentina and Chile, after a long periods with socialist/leftist governments their economies are in ruins.
    Argentina is in the middle of elections next month and will be turfing the existing president. Locals I have talked to are hoping things will become better.

    Chile has always been like the "US" of South America. Their flag looks like the flag of Texas. They went left a number of years ago. For forty days the section of the government.responsible for registries has been on an illegal strike. Basically the economy has ground to a halt as the government workers (who make twice as much as the average Chilean) want more money.
    You cannot buy a new car, for instance, because if you did it is impossible to register it and get a licence plate. Want to get married? Same thing.

    It has been a great learning experience, especially here in Argentina. The black eye they have on the international stage for defaulting on their debt is very hard on them. I sensed the embarrassment when I broached the subject delicately. They are a proud people. They are survivors, self-admittedly, and are hoping for a return to an economy (a government) where business can thrive and opportunities exist.

    Keep in mind, these are comments from people I have talked to. I have not had time to research all the information as I am on a vacation. Cheers!

    You might want to talk to people who are a little older and remember when Chile prospered as a 'socialist/leftist' government. When I say 'prospered'... I mean kicked ass in a region where countries 'kicking ass' were slim to none.

    In the early 70s, the US, unable to exploit resources in that country, propped up a militant capitalist, Pinochet, who staged a brutal coup to overtake President Allende and establish what you advocate for.

    A civil war where 1000s are executed in brutal fashion and the implementation of capitalistic policies that exposed the country's natural resources to those with their fangs out is not something a country just bounces back from in a few decades. The pursuit of capitalism damaged Chile beyond repair to this point in time.

    It is here where I would recommend a book to you: The Shock Doctrine. A very, very important read.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 16,136
    PJ_Soul said:

    I haven't researched this enough yet, but on the surface, I'm mildly disappointed in Justin appointing equal genders in the cabinet. you appoint those that are the most qualified, not those simple because they have a vagina. sorry, but that's no different than appointments of yesteryear of those with penises.

    appoint those who are the most qualified, regardless of genitalia.

    I feel like this is more the thinking of mysoginists, which you are not, so I am surprised to see you saying this.
    He DID choose highly qualified, very appropriate people. He had many people to choose from, and it's not a matter of him choosing less qualified people. His problem was more having too many qualified people to choose from. What he did was given women the equal chance as men. To make the numbers even is to ensure a true representation of the Canadian population (among other ways - ethnicity, geography, etc). I think this thought about how equal representation = not a qualified cabinet is pure bullshit.
    Yeah, as I said I need to do some more research on it.

  • TalonTeddTalonTedd TorontoPosts: 799

    Stephane Dion as foreign affairs?......
    oh boy

    Stephane Dion is the perfect liberal for the job. He portrays the stature and demeanor I would like in our foreign affairs minister. Not looking to menace, bully or otherwise tell anyone how to live their lives or conduct their cultural affairs. When the Muslims of the world decide enough is enough they will work out their problems. When the men and women of that region realize that the misogyny, killing, brutality and out right delusions of religious zealots' has gone on long enough; they will deal with those issues, like our European decedents did by way of North American nation building and little items like separation of church and state. the American war of independence. The Canadian Charter of rights....etc.

    Oh, my heads starting to hurt again.

    On the bright side, gonna catch a PJ tribute band tonight in Brantford...birth place of the great one.

    I remember when, yeah. I swore I knew everything, oh yeah.
  • TalonTeddTalonTedd TorontoPosts: 799
    edited November 2015

    Interesting thing we have learned in Argentina and Chile, after a long periods with socialist/leftist governments their economies are in ruins.
    Argentina is in the middle of elections next month and will be turfing the existing president. Locals I have talked to are hoping things will become better.

    Chile has always been like the "US" of South America. Their flag looks like the flag of Texas. They went left a number of years ago. For forty days the section of the government.responsible for registries has been on an illegal strike. Basically the economy has ground to a halt as the government workers (who make twice as much as the average Chilean) want more money.
    You cannot buy a new car, for instance, because if you did it is impossible to register it and get a licence plate. Want to get married? Same thing.

    It has been a great learning experience, especially here in Argentina. The black eye they have on the international stage for defaulting on their debt is very hard on them. I sensed the embarrassment when I broached the subject delicately. They are a proud people. They are survivors, self-admittedly, and are hoping for a return to an economy (a government) where business can thrive and opportunities exist.

    Keep in mind, these are comments from people I have talked to. I have not had time to research all the information as I am on a vacation. Cheers!

    That's because the Jackels in the American CIA and Wall street devote their every breath to destroying anything that remotely resembles a fair and equitable monetary and political system. Capitalism is the greatest evil ever!

    PS. Have a great time on your vacation. I/m so jealous.
    Post edited by TalonTedd on
    I remember when, yeah. I swore I knew everything, oh yeah.
  • So what is the wager at now for 25 000 Syrian refugees by xmas?
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • So what is the wager at now for 25 000 Syrian refugees by xmas?

    I realize those who didn't get their way are busying themselves trying to undermine our elected leadership and continue to fragment the country as Harper had been managing to do, but I'm still ecstatic with the election results- dumping Harper on his head- to be overly critical or praiseworthy at this very moment.

    I guess what I'm saying is I'm not going to judge our newly elected government by the minute. I'll give them some time before I rush to judgement. Kind of like how we gave Harper a decade to accomplish something before we had enough failure and said, "Buh Bye... Jackass."
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 44,241

    So what is the wager at now for 25 000 Syrian refugees by xmas?

    I realize those who didn't get their way are busying themselves trying to undermine our elected leadership and continue to fragment the country as Harper had been managing to do, but I'm still ecstatic with the election results- dumping Harper on his head- to be overly critical or praiseworthy at this very moment.

    I guess what I'm saying is I'm not going to judge our newly elected government by the minute. I'll give them some time before I rush to judgement. Kind of like how we gave Harper a decade to accomplish something before we had enough failure and said, "Buh Bye... Jackass."
    Yes.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited December 2015
    .
    Post edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • 1ThoughtKnown1ThoughtKnown Calgary ABPosts: 1,247

    Interesting thing we have learned in Argentina and Chile, after a long periods with socialist/leftist governments their economies are in ruins.
    Argentina is in the middle of elections next month and will be turfing the existing president. Locals I have talked to are hoping things will become better.

    Chile has always been like the "US" of South America. Their flag looks like the flag of Texas. They went left a number of years ago. For forty days the section of the government.responsible for registries has been on an illegal strike. Basically the economy has ground to a halt as the government workers (who make twice as much as the average Chilean) want more money.
    You cannot buy a new car, for instance, because if you did it is impossible to register it and get a licence plate. Want to get married? Same thing.

    It has been a great learning experience, especially here in Argentina. The black eye they have on the international stage for defaulting on their debt is very hard on them. I sensed the embarrassment when I broached the subject delicately. They are a proud people. They are survivors, self-admittedly, and are hoping for a return to an economy (a government) where business can thrive and opportunities exist.

    Keep in mind, these are comments from people I have talked to. I have not had time to research all the information as I am on a vacation. Cheers!

    You might want to talk to people who are a little older and remember when Chile prospered as a 'socialist/leftist' government. When I say 'prospered'... I mean kicked ass in a region where countries 'kicking ass' were slim to none.

    In the early 70s, the US, unable to exploit resources in that country, propped up a militant capitalist, Pinochet, who staged a brutal coup to overtake President Allende and establish what you advocate for.

    A civil war where 1000s are executed in brutal fashion and the implementation of capitalistic policies that exposed the country's natural resources to those with their fangs out is not something a country just bounces back from in a few decades. The pursuit of capitalism damaged Chile beyond repair to this point in time.

    It is here where I would recommend a book to you: The Shock Doctrine. A very, very important read.

    Interesting thing we have learned in Argentina and Chile, after a long periods with socialist/leftist governments their economies are in ruins.
    Argentina is in the middle of elections next month and will be turfing the existing president. Locals I have talked to are hoping things will become better.

    Chile has always been like the "US" of South America. Their flag looks like the flag of Texas. They went left a number of years ago. For forty days the section of the government.responsible for registries has been on an illegal strike. Basically the economy has ground to a halt as the government workers (who make twice as much as the average Chilean) want more money.
    You cannot buy a new car, for instance, because if you did it is impossible to register it and get a licence plate. Want to get married? Same thing.

    It has been a great learning experience, especially here in Argentina. The black eye they have on the international stage for defaulting on their debt is very hard on them. I sensed the embarrassment when I broached the subject delicately. They are a proud people. They are survivors, self-admittedly, and are hoping for a return to an economy (a government) where business can thrive and opportunities exist.

    Keep in mind, these are comments from people I have talked to. I have not had time to research all the information as I am on a vacation. Cheers!

    You might want to talk to people who are a little older and remember when Chile prospered as a 'socialist/leftist' government. When I say 'prospered'... I mean kicked ass in a region where countries 'kicking ass' were slim to none.

    In the early 70s, the US, unable to exploit resources in that country, propped up a militant capitalist, Pinochet, who staged a brutal coup to overtake President Allende and establish what you advocate for.

    A civil war where 1000s are executed in brutal fashion and the implementation of capitalistic policies that exposed the country's natural resources to those with their fangs out is not something a country just bounces back from in a few decades. The pursuit of capitalism damaged Chile beyond repair to this point in time.

    It is here where I would recommend a book to you: The Shock Doctrine. A very, very important read.
    That book again.

    Listen bud, once again because I don't totally agree with your ideologies you basically take us back to 1974 to 1990 and Pinochet.

    I'm talking about what is going on NOW and what the people THAT LIVE THERE are telling me. I'm experiencing and learning about the country by actually talking to some of the people there.
    Whatever the US did with Pinochet, or any other dictator for that matter. Was not the point of my post.

    Why it had me thinking is that whenever a country goes a little to far left or a little too far right, after a while a correction is required.

    On a side note, I find it still hilarious that you continue to believe I am a straight capitalist who doesn't believe in a social safety net. I mean, I think Donald Trump is a nightmare, the Tea Party is scary as shit, and said repeatedly I was no Stephen Harper fan.

    When I post, talk about the issues don't make assumptions about what I do or don't believe. With all due respect, it causes me to brush off any intelligent comments you may have made. :smile:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2013 Calgary Seattle
    2014 Amsterdam1 Trieste Vienna Moline St. Paul
    2015 Santiago Buenos Aires
    2018 Prague Kraków Seattle2 Missoula 
    It's egg rollin' thick and heavy...all the past we carry...
    Oh, I could be new...you underestimate me..
  • 1ThoughtKnown1ThoughtKnown Calgary ABPosts: 1,247
    TalonTedd said:

    Interesting thing we have learned in Argentina and Chile, after a long periods with socialist/leftist governments their economies are in ruins.
    Argentina is in the middle of elections next month and will be turfing the existing president. Locals I have talked to are hoping things will become better.

    Chile has always been like the "US" of South America. Their flag looks like the flag of Texas. They went left a number of years ago. For forty days the section of the government.responsible for registries has been on an illegal strike. Basically the economy has ground to a halt as the government workers (who make twice as much as the average Chilean) want more money.
    You cannot buy a new car, for instance, because if you did it is impossible to register it and get a licence plate. Want to get married? Same thing.

    It has been a great learning experience, especially here in Argentina. The black eye they have on the international stage for defaulting on their debt is very hard on them. I sensed the embarrassment when I broached the subject delicately. They are a proud people. They are survivors, self-admittedly, and are hoping for a return to an economy (a government) where business can thrive and opportunities exist.

    Keep in mind, these are comments from people I have talked to. I have not had time to research all the information as I am on a vacation. Cheers!

    That's because the Jackels in the American CIA and Wall street devote their every breath to destroying anything that remotely resembles a fair and equitable monetary and political system. Capitalism is the greatest evil ever!

    PS. Have a great time on your vacation. I/m so jealous.
    Thanks man!

    I have to say, it is ironic that everyone is against capitalism when Pearl Jam is a rich entity because they sell their talents. Pearl Jam is a business.
    I wish people were not overtaxed so, like PJ, we could give our money to causes we want to, not the government to put it where they want. It is too much like a nanny state.
    The more they tax us, the less disposable income we have to help the less fortunate
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2013 Calgary Seattle
    2014 Amsterdam1 Trieste Vienna Moline St. Paul
    2015 Santiago Buenos Aires
    2018 Prague Kraków Seattle2 Missoula 
    It's egg rollin' thick and heavy...all the past we carry...
    Oh, I could be new...you underestimate me..
  • Hey man.

    I responded with respect. I suggested the book in as sincere form as I might have been able to given out recent exchanges.

    Their current reality has been shaped by their past. If they are shrugging their shoulders and lamenting their condition to you without any understanding of their past and how it contributed to their current state, I would suggest you aren't talking to the brightest people their country has to offer.

    As a side note... I'm envious as hell of you right now.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 16,136

    TalonTedd said:

    Interesting thing we have learned in Argentina and Chile, after a long periods with socialist/leftist governments their economies are in ruins.
    Argentina is in the middle of elections next month and will be turfing the existing president. Locals I have talked to are hoping things will become better.

    Chile has always been like the "US" of South America. Their flag looks like the flag of Texas. They went left a number of years ago. For forty days the section of the government.responsible for registries has been on an illegal strike. Basically the economy has ground to a halt as the government workers (who make twice as much as the average Chilean) want more money.
    You cannot buy a new car, for instance, because if you did it is impossible to register it and get a licence plate. Want to get married? Same thing.

    It has been a great learning experience, especially here in Argentina. The black eye they have on the international stage for defaulting on their debt is very hard on them. I sensed the embarrassment when I broached the subject delicately. They are a proud people. They are survivors, self-admittedly, and are hoping for a return to an economy (a government) where business can thrive and opportunities exist.

    Keep in mind, these are comments from people I have talked to. I have not had time to research all the information as I am on a vacation. Cheers!

    That's because the Jackels in the American CIA and Wall street devote their every breath to destroying anything that remotely resembles a fair and equitable monetary and political system. Capitalism is the greatest evil ever!

    PS. Have a great time on your vacation. I/m so jealous.
    Thanks man!

    I have to say, it is ironic that everyone is against capitalism when Pearl Jam is a rich entity because they sell their talents. Pearl Jam is a business.
    I wish people were not overtaxed so, like PJ, we could give our money to causes we want to, not the government to put it where they want. It is too much like a nanny state.
    The more they tax us, the less disposable income we have to help the less fortunate
    Oh stop it already. No one is against capitalism. No one is assuming you love harper, but if they do, its because you keep defending him and/or continue to keep it a big secret who you do support. Guess what? No one gives a shit.
  • TalonTeddTalonTedd TorontoPosts: 799

    TalonTedd said:

    Interesting thing we have learned in Argentina and Chile, after a long periods with socialist/leftist governments their economies are in ruins.
    Argentina is in the middle of elections next month and will be turfing the existing president. Locals I have talked to are hoping things will become better.

    Chile has always been like the "US" of South America. Their flag looks like the flag of Texas. They went left a number of years ago. For forty days the section of the government.responsible for registries has been on an illegal strike. Basically the economy has ground to a halt as the government workers (who make twice as much as the average Chilean) want more money.
    You cannot buy a new car, for instance, because if you did it is impossible to register it and get a licence plate. Want to get married? Same thing.

    It has been a great learning experience, especially here in Argentina. The black eye they have on the international stage for defaulting on their debt is very hard on them. I sensed the embarrassment when I broached the subject delicately. They are a proud people. They are survivors, self-admittedly, and are hoping for a return to an economy (a government) where business can thrive and opportunities exist.

    Keep in mind, these are comments from people I have talked to. I have not had time to research all the information as I am on a vacation. Cheers!

    That's because the Jackels in the American CIA and Wall street devote their every breath to destroying anything that remotely resembles a fair and equitable monetary and political system. Capitalism is the greatest evil ever!

    PS. Have a great time on your vacation. I/m so jealous.
    Thanks man!

    I have to say, it is ironic that everyone is against capitalism when Pearl Jam is a rich entity because they sell their talents. Pearl Jam is a business.
    I wish people were not overtaxed so, like PJ, we could give our money to causes we want to, not the government to put it where they want. It is too much like a nanny state.
    The more they tax us, the less disposable income we have to help the less fortunate
    The world we all operate in, is what it is, for now. Things change. I for one would have less problem with the level of taxation we burden under if wages were more equitable to the workforce and profits were less sheltered from re-disbursement back into general population through increased wages and taxes.

    As to charity. The mere fact that charity even exists fortifies my belief that the system is unfair, privileged, and unsustainable. That the inequity has been growing and will continue to grow. There should be no poverty in Canada.

    Peace
    I remember when, yeah. I swore I knew everything, oh yeah.
  • 1ThoughtKnown1ThoughtKnown Calgary ABPosts: 1,247
    edited November 2015
    TalonTedd said:

    TalonTedd said:

    Interesting thing we have learned in Argentina and Chile, after a long periods with socialist/leftist governments their economies are in ruins.
    Argentina is in the middle of elections next month and will be turfing the existing president. Locals I have talked to are hoping things will become better.

    Chile has always been like the "US" of South America. Their flag looks like the flag of Texas. They went left a number of years ago. For forty days the section of the government.responsible for registries has been on an illegal strike. Basically the economy has ground to a halt as the government workers (who make twice as much as the average Chilean) want more money.
    You cannot buy a new car, for instance, because if you did it is impossible to register it and get a licence plate. Want to get married? Same thing.

    It has been a great learning experience, especially here in Argentina. The black eye they have on the international stage for defaulting on their debt is very hard on them. I sensed the embarrassment when I broached the subject delicately. They are a proud people. They are survivors, self-admittedly, and are hoping for a return to an economy (a government) where business can thrive and opportunities exist.

    Keep in mind, these are comments from people I have talked to. I have not had time to research all the information as I am on a vacation. Cheers!

    That's because the Jackels in the American CIA and Wall street devote their every breath to destroying anything that remotely resembles a fair and equitable monetary and political system. Capitalism is the greatest evil ever!

    PS. Have a great time on your vacation. I/m so jealous.
    Thanks man!

    I have to say, it is ironic that everyone is against capitalism when Pearl Jam is a rich entity because they sell their talents. Pearl Jam is a business.
    I wish people were not overtaxed so, like PJ, we could give our money to causes we want to, not the government to put it where they want. It is too much like a nanny state.
    The more they tax us, the less disposable income we have to help the less fortunate
    The world we all operate in, is what it is, for now. Things change. I for one would have less problem with the level of taxation we burden under if wages were more equitable to the workforce and profits were less sheltered from re-disbursement back into general population through increased wages and taxes.

    As to charity. The mere fact that charity even exists fortifies my belief that the system is unfair, privileged, and unsustainable. That the inequity has been growing and will continue to grow. There should be no poverty in Canada.

    Peace
    My good man, that was an intelligent and thoughtful response to my post. You gave me a lot to think about there.
    I struggle with the theory of trickle down economics (it is failing and posted about that months ago on the old CDN Politics forum).
    The only thing about the re-disbursement is that those who risk everything to create a business should enjoy the success it may bring, because who is there to help them when it fails? You don't get EI when you close up shop and declare bankruptcy, etc.
    Target, for example, failed miserably with its expansion into Canada and lost billions. The corporatïon suffered, jobs were created and lost.

    I often think about the sawmill south of Westbank just on top of the hill to Peachland in BC.
    The owner was so good to his workers. Huge forest fires threatened the mill and the workers gave their free time to help protect it.
    They also worked a day for nothing as a birthday gift for the owner.
    This mill is non-Union. (This are all stories my grandfather tells and he lives near there).

    There should be no poverty anywhere, you are right. But I stick to my belief that poverty would be virtually eliminated in Canada if money was diverted from some bloated Social programs and into strengthening our mental health system. I would applaud any government who made it a point to do this. Many people with mental health issues are the ones who fall through the cracks and self medicate on alcohol or drugs. Some of these people, sadly, end up on the street.


    Cheers man!
    Post edited by 1ThoughtKnown on
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2013 Calgary Seattle
    2014 Amsterdam1 Trieste Vienna Moline St. Paul
    2015 Santiago Buenos Aires
    2018 Prague Kraków Seattle2 Missoula 
    It's egg rollin' thick and heavy...all the past we carry...
    Oh, I could be new...you underestimate me..
  • TalonTeddTalonTedd TorontoPosts: 799
    1TK
    I think a lot of mental health issues and others like crime and violence grow strong in poverty. I've seen the effects myself,(ran with the wrong crew when i was younger). Poverty is a root cause on too many levels. ie overworked parents have less patients, fun and time for each other and the children; they fly off the handle easy, transmit feelings of inadequacy to loved ones and worse. They deserve better. self esteem, feeling accomplished, time for R/R etc etc etc.

    Yeah....lets rename trickle down to....step on their throats and watch one half of the poor kill the other half economics. What a sick idea; the wealthy must have been laughin their asses off when that lie was coined.

    And those that develop sustainable and useful business should have higher standing in the community. Greater access in the access based society we should be striving for. Access for all, and extra for achievement.

    NLRBE for all and watch happiness grow, not the stress.

    In joyous part.
    I remember when, yeah. I swore I knew everything, oh yeah.
  • PJfanwillneverleave1PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited December 2015
    .
    Post edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on
    Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not. Both ideas are overwhelming. AE
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,553
    not sure if it's the worst thing he's done ... but ...

    all these trade deals do is provide more power and access for large corporations

    https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/balsillie-fears-tpp-could-cost-canada-billions-become-203327302.html

    OTTAWA - Jim Balsillie warns that provisions tucked into the Trans-Pacific Partnership could cost Canada hundreds of billions of dollars — and eventually make signing it the worst public policy decision in the country's history.

    After poring over the treaty's final text, the businessman who helped build Research In Motion into a $20-billion global player said the deal contains "troubling" rules on intellectual property that threaten to make Canada a "permanent underclass" in the economy of selling ideas.

    Last month, in the middle of the election campaign, the Conservative government put Canada's signature on the controversial 12-country pact. The Pacific Rim agreement, which includes the massive American and Japanese economies, has been described as the world's largest-ever trade zone.

    But Balsillie said parts of the deal will harm Canadian innovators by forcing them to play by rules set by the treaty's most-dominant partner: the United States.

    The fallout could prove costly for Canada because technologies created by these entrepreneurs have the potential to create huge amounts of wealth for the economy, he says.

    "I'm not a partisan actor, but I actually think this is the worst thing that the Harper government has done for Canada," the former co-chief executive of RIM said in an interview after studying large sections of the 6,000-page document, released to the public last week.

    "I think in 10 years from now, we'll call that the signature worst thing in policy that Canada's ever done...

    "It's a treaty that structures everything forever — and we can't get out of it."

    Balsillie's concerns about the deal include how it would impose intellectual property standards set by the U.S., the biggest partner in the treaty.

    He fears it would give American firms an edge and cost Canadian companies more money because they would have to pay for someone else's ideas instead their own.

    On top of that, Balsillie believes the structure could prevent Canadian firms from growing as it would also limit how much money they can make from their own products and services.

    Balsillie, who spent much of his time building RIM by negotiating agreements around the world, called the comprehensive final text a "brilliant piece of literature."

    "It's such brilliantly systemic encirclement. I'm just in awe at its powerful purity by the Americans...

    "We've been outfoxed."

    And unlike legislation passed in Parliament, he noted treaties like this one set rules that must be followed forever. This deal, he added, also features "iron-clad" dispute mechanisms.

    "I'm worried and I don't know how we can get out of this," said Balsillie, who's also helping guide the creation of a lobby group that would press for the needs of Canada's innovation sector.

    "I think our trade negotiators have profoundly failed Canadians and our future innovators. I really lament it."

    He said the government should have dispatched a more-sophisticated negotiating team.

    Harper had hailed the agreement as a means of ensuring Canadian access to a market of nearly 800 million people and before it was signed, warned Canada couldn't afford not to take part.

    The deal must be ratified by all 12 countries, and then it would come into force six months later. It would require a parliamentary vote in Canada.

    Alternatively, the treaty can also take effect if it's ratified by half the countries representing 85 per cent of the zone's economy. A country can withdraw any time, on six months' notice.

    The Liberal government has yet to say how it will proceed.

    International Trade Minister Chrystia Freeland, named to cabinet a day before the finalized treaty was made public, reiterated that the Liberals believe in trade, but she was careful to note the deal was negotiated by the Conservative government.

    After the text was released, Freeland told reporters she wanted Canadians to send her comments about it.

    "I'm going to take that seriously — we're going to review it," she said Thursday.

    The government, she added, is committed to a full parliamentary debate on the deal and a vote in the House of Commons, though she had yet to set a deadline.

    She declined to answer questions whether the Liberals would be prepared to walk away from the deal.

    Balsillie warned that the Liberals' plan to run budgetary deficits of up to $10 billion in each of the next three years could pale in comparison to what could be lost in the country's ideas economy because of the TPP.

    "These provisions are more important by far — times 10 — than anything else in the agreement," he said.

    "But we're having no discussion on it."

    Follow @AndyBlatchford on Twitter
  • "It's such brilliantly systemic encirclement. I'm just in awe at its powerful purity by the Americans...

    "We've been outfoxed."

    And unlike legislation passed in Parliament, he noted treaties like this one set rules that must be followed forever. This deal, he added, also features "iron-clad" dispute mechanisms.

    "I'm worried and I don't know how we can get out of this," said Balsillie, who's also helping guide the creation of a lobby group that would press for the needs of Canada's innovation sector.

    "I think our trade negotiators have profoundly failed Canadians and our future innovators. I really lament it."


    Outfoxed. That might be one way to frame it.
    Cheated. Might be another. Harper... the US lap dog was always eager to lick Uncle Sam's boots.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,508
    Sorry guys, we tried to stop it but Obama wasn't on our side and the cons were with him.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • dignindignin Posts: 6,636
    Thankfully we're still a long way from signing on to the TPP......and we threw out Harper, who would have backed this deal 100%.

    This is where a Liberal minority propped up by the NDP would have really come in handy.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 44,241
    Yeah, not too late yet.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,036



    Thanks man!

    I have to say, it is ironic that everyone is against capitalism when Pearl Jam is a rich entity because they sell their talents. Pearl Jam is a business.
    I wish people were not overtaxed so, like PJ, we could give our money to causes we want to, not the government to put it where they want. It is too much like a nanny state.
    The more they tax us, the less disposable income we have to help the less fortunate

    Oh stop it already. No one is against capitalism. No one is assuming you love harper, but if they do, its because you keep defending him and/or continue to keep it a big secret who you do support. Guess what? No one gives a shit.
    I def wouldn't say no one is against capitalism....personally, I think we all should be against it in the form it takes now....Does that mean PJ is wrong for being a part of it? No....because we all are. The part people should 'stop', IMO, is the presumption that anyone thinks PJ is not a business - we all know that, so it shouldn't be constantly thrown in leftist's faces as if we don't understand how it works (yes, there are some people who think the PJ posturing of the early 90's translates into current practice, but they're usually people who have barely followed the band over the last 20 years).....Also, I wish people (1TK in this case) would stop with the libertarian thought line of acceptance that trickle down economics just doesn't work....but for some reason it would work in regards to charity....

    Also....since we're talking ideology, and 1TK and Thirty are talking Argentina and Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine...I'll bring up another Klein work that I've mentioned here a few times (I've never had anyone mention that they've actually watched it yet)....she did an awesome doc in 04 about Argentina's collectivist movement, called La Toma (or The Take)....it's an example of how the movement actually saved people after the chaos of an economy destroyed not by socialist/leftists as 1TK said, but by neoliberalism...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 44,241
    edited November 2015
    I don't think that trickle down economics works either. I think it's complete bullshit. It COULD work, but it doesn't.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata


  • Thanks man!

    I have to say, it is ironic that everyone is against capitalism when Pearl Jam is a rich entity because they sell their talents. Pearl Jam is a business.
    I wish people were not overtaxed so, like PJ, we could give our money to causes we want to, not the government to put it where they want. It is too much like a nanny state.
    The more they tax us, the less disposable income we have to help the less fortunate

    Oh stop it already. No one is against capitalism. No one is assuming you love harper, but if they do, its because you keep defending him and/or continue to keep it a big secret who you do support. Guess what? No one gives a shit.
    I def wouldn't say no one is against capitalism....personally, I think we all should be against it in the form it takes now....Does that mean PJ is wrong for being a part of it? No....because we all are. The part people should 'stop', IMO, is the presumption that anyone thinks PJ is not a business - we all know that, so it shouldn't be constantly thrown in leftist's faces as if we don't understand how it works (yes, there are some people who think the PJ posturing of the early 90's translates into current practice, but they're usually people who have barely followed the band over the last 20 years).....Also, I wish people (1TK in this case) would stop with the libertarian thought line of acceptance that trickle down economics just doesn't work....but for some reason it would work in regards to charity....

    Also....since we're talking ideology, and 1TK and Thirty are talking Argentina and Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine...I'll bring up another Klein work that I've mentioned here a few times (I've never had anyone mention that they've actually watched it yet)....she did an awesome doc in 04 about Argentina's collectivist movement, called La Toma (or The Take)....it's an example of how the movement actually saved people after the chaos of an economy destroyed not by socialist/leftists as 1TK said, but by neoliberalism...
    I'd like to watch that.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,036



    Thanks man!

    I have to say, it is ironic that everyone is against capitalism when Pearl Jam is a rich entity because they sell their talents. Pearl Jam is a business.
    I wish people were not overtaxed so, like PJ, we could give our money to causes we want to, not the government to put it where they want. It is too much like a nanny state.
    The more they tax us, the less disposable income we have to help the less fortunate

    Oh stop it already. No one is against capitalism. No one is assuming you love harper, but if they do, its because you keep defending him and/or continue to keep it a big secret who you do support. Guess what? No one gives a shit.
    I def wouldn't say no one is against capitalism....personally, I think we all should be against it in the form it takes now....Does that mean PJ is wrong for being a part of it? No....because we all are. The part people should 'stop', IMO, is the presumption that anyone thinks PJ is not a business - we all know that, so it shouldn't be constantly thrown in leftist's faces as if we don't understand how it works (yes, there are some people who think the PJ posturing of the early 90's translates into current practice, but they're usually people who have barely followed the band over the last 20 years).....Also, I wish people (1TK in this case) would stop with the libertarian thought line of acceptance that trickle down economics just doesn't work....but for some reason it would work in regards to charity....

    Also....since we're talking ideology, and 1TK and Thirty are talking Argentina and Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine...I'll bring up another Klein work that I've mentioned here a few times (I've never had anyone mention that they've actually watched it yet)....she did an awesome doc in 04 about Argentina's collectivist movement, called La Toma (or The Take)....it's an example of how the movement actually saved people after the chaos of an economy destroyed not by socialist/leftists as 1TK said, but by neoliberalism...
    I'd like to watch that.
    Here ya go:


    (you have to turn the subtitles on)
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,553
    she's got a new movie out called This Changes Everything ... focusing on the relationship between capitalism and global warming ... not the greatest film to be quite honest ...
  • 1ThoughtKnown1ThoughtKnown Calgary ABPosts: 1,247
    All I did was comment how it was interesting as we are going left here, far away in South America they are going the other way (surprisingly according to the people I talked to). I only brought it up because it got me thinking that generally in democratic situations a correction will happen.

    As for contributing to charitable organizations, once again, it is the money I make. I trade my time for money.

    I stand behind my right to contribute it or organizations I want to help, not the government taxing me more to give it to who THEY think should get it. (CBC, NFB,, etc.). I do not believe in a nanny state. The government should stick to infrastructure, education, health care and a social safety net. As an adult, I do not appreciate the government (or anyone else for that matter) telling me where my hard earned money should go.

    You may not agree with my sentiment, but I appreciate those who are respectful in their counter-arguments. I merely throw out things I observe in life, just to get people thinking.
    Most people here were so anti-Harper they would not admit he did anything right in 10 years. That is just irrational! I was ready for a change, however the other options just didn't appeal to me.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2013 Calgary Seattle
    2014 Amsterdam1 Trieste Vienna Moline St. Paul
    2015 Santiago Buenos Aires
    2018 Prague Kraków Seattle2 Missoula 
    It's egg rollin' thick and heavy...all the past we carry...
    Oh, I could be new...you underestimate me..
  • 1ThoughtKnown1ThoughtKnown Calgary ABPosts: 1,247
    edited November 2015



    Thanks man!

    I have to say, it is ironic that everyone is against capitalism when Pearl Jam is a rich entity because they sell their talents. Pearl Jam is a business.
    I wish people were not overtaxed so, like PJ, we could give our money to causes we want to, not the government to put it where they want. It is too much like a nanny state.
    The more they tax us, the less disposable income we have to help the less fortunate

    Oh stop it already. No one is against capitalism. No one is assuming you love harper, but if they do, its because you keep defending him and/or continue to keep it a big secret who you do support. Guess what? No one gives a shit.
    I def wouldn't say no one is against capitalism....personally, I think we all should be against it in the form it takes now....Does that mean PJ is wrong for being a part of it? No....because we all are. The part people should 'stop', IMO, is the presumption that anyone thinks PJ is not a business - we all know that, so it shouldn't be constantly thrown in leftist's faces as if we don't understand how it works (yes, there are some people who think the PJ posturing of the early 90's translates into current practice, but they're usually people who have barely followed the band over the last 20 years).....Also, I wish people (1TK in this case) would stop with the libertarian thought line of acceptance that trickle down economics just doesn't work....but for some reason it would work in regards to charity....

    Also....since we're talking ideology, and 1TK and Thirty are talking Argentina and Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine...I'll bring up another Klein work that I've mentioned here a few times (I've never had anyone mention that they've actually watched it yet)....she did an awesome doc in 04 about Argentina's collectivist movement, called La Toma (or The Take)....it's an example of how the movement actually saved people after the chaos of an economy destroyed not by socialist/leftists as 1TK said, but by neoliberalism...
    2004 is ten years ago bud, I was talking to Argentines today, in 2015. I was simply relaying what I heard.
    I couldn't walk 50 feet in some places in BA without someone saying "Cambio, Cambio" to me (I think that's what they were saying haha).

    They are trying to get all the US currency they can get (and offering 16 pesos to the dollar for it on the "blue market") because they are afraid their money is going to become worthless.

    Do you believe the socialist movement driving the country into debt has nothing to do with this? We are going to blame people running hedge funds for this? Argentina sold their debt and now the hedge fund investors want their money back.


    Post edited by 1ThoughtKnown on
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2013 Calgary Seattle
    2014 Amsterdam1 Trieste Vienna Moline St. Paul
    2015 Santiago Buenos Aires
    2018 Prague Kraków Seattle2 Missoula 
    It's egg rollin' thick and heavy...all the past we carry...
    Oh, I could be new...you underestimate me..


  • Thanks man!

    I have to say, it is ironic that everyone is against capitalism when Pearl Jam is a rich entity because they sell their talents. Pearl Jam is a business.
    I wish people were not overtaxed so, like PJ, we could give our money to causes we want to, not the government to put it where they want. It is too much like a nanny state.
    The more they tax us, the less disposable income we have to help the less fortunate

    Oh stop it already. No one is against capitalism. No one is assuming you love harper, but if they do, its because you keep defending him and/or continue to keep it a big secret who you do support. Guess what? No one gives a shit.
    I def wouldn't say no one is against capitalism....personally, I think we all should be against it in the form it takes now....Does that mean PJ is wrong for being a part of it? No....because we all are. The part people should 'stop', IMO, is the presumption that anyone thinks PJ is not a business - we all know that, so it shouldn't be constantly thrown in leftist's faces as if we don't understand how it works (yes, there are some people who think the PJ posturing of the early 90's translates into current practice, but they're usually people who have barely followed the band over the last 20 years).....Also, I wish people (1TK in this case) would stop with the libertarian thought line of acceptance that trickle down economics just doesn't work....but for some reason it would work in regards to charity....

    Also....since we're talking ideology, and 1TK and Thirty are talking Argentina and Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine...I'll bring up another Klein work that I've mentioned here a few times (I've never had anyone mention that they've actually watched it yet)....she did an awesome doc in 04 about Argentina's collectivist movement, called La Toma (or The Take)....it's an example of how the movement actually saved people after the chaos of an economy destroyed not by socialist/leftists as 1TK said, but by neoliberalism...
    I'd like to watch that.
    Here ya go:


    (you have to turn the subtitles on)
    Good job!

    Just gotta find some time to sit and watch. I'll let you know when I do.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • TalonTeddTalonTedd TorontoPosts: 799
    I am completely on line for treaty agreements that bring people around the world together. Not ones that give corporations more power over people. I hope PMJT takes a serious look at the document and heeds its' criticism from people like Balsillie and others
    I remember when, yeah. I swore I knew everything, oh yeah.
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