Canadian Politics Redux

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

What is wrong with taking one single day out of the year to CELEBRATE a great country without the need to beat ourselves up over any issues in our history? We spend virtually every other day talking about how bad the European colonists were (btw, aren’t the First Nations truly the first COLONISTS?), but only through a highly selective lens.

Are we perfect? No, but no country is. But we don’t throw homosexuals off roofs and the like so I honestly believe that we have built a country we can be proud of. For one single day.

Edit: If we truly are a genocidal people here in Canada, we are definitely amongst the worst practitioners in the world, or is that maybe a gross mischaracterization of a (through the lens of hindsight) misguided policy?

This is my take for what it's worth......   and there is a good chance it applies to handful of issues of late. 

Keeping in mind this may or may not have to do with any individuals here.. but as a disclaimer... none of what I'm about to type is aimed at anyone here in particular. 

We're at a tipping point in society... an 'awakening' if you will... thus the term "woke."  

On one hand... you have folks who are coming to realize a handful of things... most of which are the atrocities that have been committed not only in our country but BY our country and our governments.  That same government has successfully pulled the wool over a lot of people's eyes through ignorance and mis-education. This WAS a coordinated and purposeful effort.  Of those people, some are passionate and are genuinely pissed off about it. To the point where yes, they want to cancel Canada Day.  Personally... I am very pissed off about it. In particular... I hate that truth and facts were never part of the history that was taught to us. 

On the other hand... you have folks who are comfortable not acknowledging those atrocities and who think Canada is the best, and they won't listen to any other opinions. (Don Cherry comes to mind.) The thought of cancelling Canada Day is so absurd that it borders on offensive in their world view. 

Enter the term.... Truth and Reconciliation. 

I imagine that the folks who want to cancel Canada Day would be a lot more apt to welcome the idea of bringing those celebrations back AFTER the Don Cherry's of the country can openly admit that as a country we have fucked things up real bad. They would be more apt to celebrate Canada Day AFTER one of our awful governments finally started checking off the boxes set forth in the Truth and Reconciliation report. 

That said... for the folks who want to cancel Canada Day... it would also be important for them to understand that we have indeed come a very long way and that a lot of our mistakes were made because we were only following suit of America (which we do a lot).

Me personally.. I love the things that make Canada.... Canada. That includes each and every stereotype that comes along with being Canadian. I love our music and our musicians / singers. I love our geography. I love Terry Fox.. I love Gord Downie. I love the Group of Seven.  I hate aspects of our history... but I also love aspects of our history.  I hate what we did (and continue to do) to Indigenous Peoples amongst other ethnic minorities... but I also love that we were the first country to put into law that we were legally multi cultural.  I personally celebrate Canada Day but understand we have work to do. It's slow work unfortunately. And while I celebrate it..  I also completely understand and respect those who don't. 

I think I agree with pretty much every word you wrote there.

Now that I’m not so hot about it, I need to say that I have no problem examining our country’s shortcomings and mistakes, I’m just disappointed that a simple greeting and well wishes needed to be twisted and denigrated. To be fair though, I did post my message in a political thread instead of AET so I should have been better prepared to take some lumps.

However I still feel that in the balance of things Canada is still a great country and a worthwhile project and don’t see why, just for one day, we can’t simply sing our country’s praises.

because you're celebrating the country's "founding" i.e. slaughter of the inhabitants of this land and the subsequent genocide. Imagine for one second what "happy canada day" means to the Indigenous; to those directly and indirectly affected by those atrocities, and the generational trauma that followed it. Maybe you think it's harmless, and in certain company, of course it is, but on a public message board, I'd say it's in poor taste. 

I'll celebrate canada day when we're not comparing it to other nations we look down on, declaring "see, we ain't so bad", but when we collectively set that bar higher, much, much higher. Trudeau said he would. He did some of it. But there's a LONG way to go. 

Fair enough party pooper, that’s your right of course, just as it’s my right (and one I suggest the majority of the country embrace) to NOT feel any guilt or shame on the one day of the year set aside for celebrating our country.

Calling anyone who celebrates Canada Day uncanadian is in pretty poor taste as well and thanks for telling me again how I should post.

 You throw around the word genocide quite liberally in regards to our country, you’re going to have to accept that many strongly disagree with that claim. Was the purpose of the various government programs over the years to eliminate the First Nations from the gene pool or was it to embrace their people into our culture? Were they misguided by the THINKING OF THE TIME that the route to do so included elimination of their culture? Absolutely they were wrong to do that by today’s standards but at the time they genuinely believed they were helping the First Nations. That’s one hell of a far cry from herding people into ovens or distributing blankets seeded with disease.

 I straight up refuse to judge the past by today’s morals other than to look back and acknowledge the progress that’s been made. Anyone that does judge those who lived in the past by current values is a dangerous fool (in my opinion).

And what does Trudeau have to do with anything other than as bait, lol? Have you heard how our international reputation has suffered under him, to say nothing of the social damage he’s done to the country he ostensibly governs?

haha. I didn't tell you how to post. I merely stated I thought it was in poor taste. You can post as you like. 

Fine, I'll add "cultural" to genocide. I'd agree, that is more accurate. 

excusing what the government and the church did back then as "trying to help them" is a pretty well known racist trope, I hope you know. It isn't "today's morals". Why is it that conservatives trot out "don't judge yesterday by today's morals" when it suits them at the same time as "today's society lacks morality", depending on the convenience?

Once again, you accuse me of calling you names (I don't) and then you call me a dangerous fool. well done

I mentioned Trudeau because he's the first PM to make a serious pledge to help mend the previous ills (beyond political BS, in my opinion, because he's the first to actually DO something, just not enough). Don't comment on it if you don't want to. I'm not bating you. I couldn't care less if you respond or not. 

Where did I excuse anyone for the wrongs that were done? I didn’t, if you could actually read what I post. I’m honestly starting to think that you deliberately misread me here.

And where did I accuse you of calling me names? I didn’t, I actually called you a name. And yes, if you judge the people of the past based on your own moral code then I will call you and your ilk dangerous fools until they put me in the ground (except if you actually read what I wrote it should be pretty clear that I wasn’t referring to you specifically so am I calling you a name in that case?). A large part of why I call such people dangerous fools is also because of their generally highly selective readings of the historical facts and the misrepresentations that result.

As far as Trudeau and FN goes, how was that first Truth & Reconciliation Day go for him? Is water safe for all FN to drink 9 years after he was first elected PM (and pledged to have it resolved during his first term)? Yeah, he’s done wonders for that group. Tangential to Justin, where are the calls to rename the international airport named for his father, who maintained the residential school system?

 I wonder what the word was in 1867 for genocide? I’m not sure there even was one.

Hugh, I realize you probably couldn’t care less but every time you talk about genocidal colonists you’re shitting on my ancestors. My family traced our roots back to early 1600s Quebec so my family’s been here for almost every step of the slaughter according to you (or does the killing only begin after Canadian Confederation according to you?). You suggested it’s insensitive towards FN people for me to post Canada Day greetings but you are equally blindly insensitive (and when you get called out on it you double down in my experience). I only state this so you understand my offence, nothing else (well, maybe to give Alanis a lesson in irony as well, lol).

Edit:  It turns out the word genocide was created in the aftermath of the Holocaust. Such an abhorrent practice hadn’t been identified yet (I won’t argue that it didn’t happen over the mere millenia of human existence).

Parksy

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

What is wrong with taking one single day out of the year to CELEBRATE a great country without the need to beat ourselves up over any issues in our history? We spend virtually every other day talking about how bad the European colonists were (btw, aren’t the First Nations truly the first COLONISTS?), but only through a highly selective lens.

Are we perfect? No, but no country is. But we don’t throw homosexuals off roofs and the like so I honestly believe that we have built a country we can be proud of. For one single day.

Edit: If we truly are a genocidal people here in Canada, we are definitely amongst the worst practitioners in the world, or is that maybe a gross mischaracterization of a (through the lens of hindsight) misguided policy?

This is my take for what it's worth......   and there is a good chance it applies to handful of issues of late. 

Keeping in mind this may or may not have to do with any individuals here.. but as a disclaimer... none of what I'm about to type is aimed at anyone here in particular. 

We're at a tipping point in society... an 'awakening' if you will... thus the term "woke."  

On one hand... you have folks who are coming to realize a handful of things... most of which are the atrocities that have been committed not only in our country but BY our country and our governments.  That same government has successfully pulled the wool over a lot of people's eyes through ignorance and mis-education. This WAS a coordinated and purposeful effort.  Of those people, some are passionate and are genuinely pissed off about it. To the point where yes, they want to cancel Canada Day.  Personally... I am very pissed off about it. In particular... I hate that truth and facts were never part of the history that was taught to us. 

On the other hand... you have folks who are comfortable not acknowledging those atrocities and who think Canada is the best, and they won't listen to any other opinions. (Don Cherry comes to mind.) The thought of cancelling Canada Day is so absurd that it borders on offensive in their world view. 

Enter the term.... Truth and Reconciliation. 

I imagine that the folks who want to cancel Canada Day would be a lot more apt to welcome the idea of bringing those celebrations back AFTER the Don Cherry's of the country can openly admit that as a country we have fucked things up real bad. They would be more apt to celebrate Canada Day AFTER one of our awful governments finally started checking off the boxes set forth in the Truth and Reconciliation report. 

That said... for the folks who want to cancel Canada Day... it would also be important for them to understand that we have indeed come a very long way and that a lot of our mistakes were made because we were only following suit of America (which we do a lot).

Me personally.. I love the things that make Canada.... Canada. That includes each and every stereotype that comes along with being Canadian. I love our music and our musicians / singers. I love our geography. I love Terry Fox.. I love Gord Downie. I love the Group of Seven.  I hate aspects of our history... but I also love aspects of our history.  I hate what we did (and continue to do) to Indigenous Peoples amongst other ethnic minorities... but I also love that we were the first country to put into law that we were legally multi cultural.  I personally celebrate Canada Day but understand we have work to do. It's slow work unfortunately. And while I celebrate it..  I also completely understand and respect those who don't. 

I think I agree with pretty much every word you wrote there.

Now that I’m not so hot about it, I need to say that I have no problem examining our country’s shortcomings and mistakes, I’m just disappointed that a simple greeting and well wishes needed to be twisted and denigrated. To be fair though, I did post my message in a political thread instead of AET so I should have been better prepared to take some lumps.

However I still feel that in the balance of things Canada is still a great country and a worthwhile project and don’t see why, just for one day, we can’t simply sing our country’s praises.

because you're celebrating the country's "founding" i.e. slaughter of the inhabitants of this land and the subsequent genocide. Imagine for one second what "happy canada day" means to the Indigenous; to those directly and indirectly affected by those atrocities, and the generational trauma that followed it. Maybe you think it's harmless, and in certain company, of course it is, but on a public message board, I'd say it's in poor taste. 

I'll celebrate canada day when we're not comparing it to other nations we look down on, declaring "see, we ain't so bad", but when we collectively set that bar higher, much, much higher. Trudeau said he would. He did some of it. But there's a LONG way to go. 

Good point.  And yes Trudeau said he would... and has fumbled. 

HughFreakingDillon

Saying "they were trying to help them" is called excusing their behaviour.

I didn't say YOU were uncanadian. I said the act was. Learn the difference. 

Gee, I'm so sorry to offend the colonizing white people of yore. Reminds me of my Baptist brother whining about being called a bigot because he thinks gays will go to hell. 

Blindly insensitive to those that perpetuated, or participated in, or turned a blind eye to, an atrocity. Wow. I'm crushed. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

Saying "they were trying to help them" is called excusing their behaviour.

I didn't say YOU were uncanadian. I said the act was. Learn the difference. 

Gee, I'm so sorry to offend the colonizing white people of yore. Reminds me of my Baptist brother whining about being called a bigot because he thinks gays will go to hell. 

Blindly insensitive to those that perpetuated, or participated in, or turned a blind eye to, an atrocity. Wow. I'm crushed. 

We’re going to have to agree to strongly disagree that “they were trying to help them” is excusing what happened.

Edit: And there’s the double down too. And I’d even say a triple down. Why?

DarthMaeglin

Am I really the only person that believes one can acknowledge the motivations of the people of the past but doing so doesn’t condone or excuse what was done?

Spunkie

DarthMaeglin said:

Am I really the only person that believes one can acknowledge the motivations of the people of the past but doing so doesn’t condone or excuse what was done?

It's ongoing.

HughFreakingDillon

DarthMaeglin said:

Am I really the only person that believes one can acknowledge the motivations of the people of the past but doing so doesn’t condone or excuse what was done?

good lord. "they were trying to help them" was their way of saying they were fucking savages (ever hear the french term for native americans? sauvage mean anything to you?) who needed to evolve. that's not help. just like americans tried to "help" black people from africa. 

HughFreakingDillon

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Saying "they were trying to help them" is called excusing their behaviour.

I didn't say YOU were uncanadian. I said the act was. Learn the difference. 

Gee, I'm so sorry to offend the colonizing white people of yore. Reminds me of my Baptist brother whining about being called a bigot because he thinks gays will go to hell. 

Blindly insensitive to those that perpetuated, or participated in, or turned a blind eye to, an atrocity. Wow. I'm crushed. 

We’re going to have to agree to strongly disagree that “they were trying to help them” is excusing what happened.

Edit: And there’s the double down too. And I’d even say a triple down. Why?

why what? you're complaining I'm consistent and whining that I won't agree with you?

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Am I really the only person that believes one can acknowledge the motivations of the people of the past but doing so doesn’t condone or excuse what was done?

good lord. "they were trying to help them" was their way of saying they were fucking savages (ever hear the french term for native americans? sauvage mean anything to you?) who needed to evolve. that's not help. just like americans tried to "help" black people from africa. 

I think you pretty well summed up how the Europeans of the time viewed their world. Isn’t it good that we don’t look at things the same way today? Am I going to judge them for being people of their time? No, but you will with glee it seems. You’ve asked me before to allow for nuance but you won’t allow it whenever it pleases you, I just don’t get it.

If it can’t be acknowledged that there’s a difference between the policies that grew of that thinking (which kept the people alive with the (wrongheaded) goal of assimilation), as opposed to simply gathering them up and slaughtering them, then there’s no point in going any further.

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Saying "they were trying to help them" is called excusing their behaviour.

I didn't say YOU were uncanadian. I said the act was. Learn the difference. 

Gee, I'm so sorry to offend the colonizing white people of yore. Reminds me of my Baptist brother whining about being called a bigot because he thinks gays will go to hell. 

Blindly insensitive to those that perpetuated, or participated in, or turned a blind eye to, an atrocity. Wow. I'm crushed. 

We’re going to have to agree to strongly disagree that “they were trying to help them” is excusing what happened.

Edit: And there’s the double down too. And I’d even say a triple down. Why?

why what? you're complaining I'm consistent and whining that I won't agree with you?

Again you appear to have misread me, is that intentional?

What I was asking was why you insist on doubling down when someone tells you that you’ve offended them?

DarthMaeglin

Spunkie said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Am I really the only person that believes one can acknowledge the motivations of the people of the past but doing so doesn’t condone or excuse what was done?

It's ongoing.

Please make your case.

Spunkie

DarthMaeglin said:

Spunkie said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Am I really the only person that believes one can acknowledge the motivations of the people of the past but doing so doesn’t condone or excuse what was done?

It's ongoing.

Please make your case.

There are class actions like abortion/sterilization and  started opioid crisis and indigenous overrepresentation.

Just now starting to dish out the 23 billion dollars for millenial foster care kids they took and assimilated or denied/delayed social services.

I'm a little tired to go into it but I'm sure you could research these first nation lawsuits to start. 

Spunkie

There's a thread for this one it doesn't have to be in the Canadian politics.

I'm pretty sure all the people that are in jail that are indigenous aren't thriving and repopulating and the fastest growing group of incarcerated people are young FNIM girls

Spunkie

Many would throw in the missing and murdered indigenous woman and girls as ongoing part of genocide.

Systemic racism.

Shouldn't always be the first nation person telling everybody else what the hell is up. you guys are supposed to do your part too.

Spunkie

DarthMaeglin said:

Spunkie said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Am I really the only person that believes one can acknowledge the motivations of the people of the past but doing so doesn’t condone or excuse what was done?

It's ongoing.

Please make your case.

. 

DarthMaeglin

Thank you for your insight, and I do need to admit that there is more I should learn on this issue. You’re absolutely right that it shouldn’t fall on you to inform the rest of us, but I will beg for some patience in this regard as I was educated in a time when the mistreatment of First Nations was only covered minimally (we learned about how treaties weren’t respected but not the residential schools, some of which were still operating at the time). I do follow the news fairly closely so I might call myself somewhat informed (which obviously leaves much room for improvement).

Unfortunately I still have to disagree with your view that a genocide is ongoing. Outside of the systematic racism that you mentioned, virtually everything else are acts of the past and not currently happening. If I examine government policy, your culture is frequently celebrated and acknowledged and there are (as I understand it) many programs meant to support the First Nations people (effectiveness obviously open for discussion).

More generally I hope I have never denied that abuses and discrimination have been a large part of the First Nations story and don’t deny that there is still a debt that needs to be paid by Canada. What I would love to see is the involved parties seriously working towards a lasting solution instead of the random patchwork of measures that I see.

A large part of my disagreement stems from 2 factors: the selective readings of history and the liberal use of the word genocide. As I discovered the people of the past are being accused of something that hadn’t yet been conceived (for right or wrong) since the word genocide was created until 1944. I wouldn’t feel it fair if the people of the future judge me guilty of a crime that was in fact common practice for the time I lived in.

DarthMaeglin

Spunkie said:

There's a thread for this one it doesn't have to be in the Canadian politics.

I'm pretty sure all the people that are in jail that are indigenous aren't thriving and repopulating and the fastest growing group of incarcerated people are young FNIM girls

For what it's worth I have followed that thread though I haven't commented and have learned thanks to that thread. 

Parksy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtsz6W1M28M

Along the lines of Canada and it's treatment of Indigenous peoples.... we're again left with two leaders who are either virtue signaling liars (Trudeau)  or robotic dooshbags (Polievre). 

Also interesting is the contrast of two leaders / parties and their solutions to problems using a socialist model (Trudeau) and a capitalist model (Polievre).  To that point, I'm not a believer in either solution as both don't seem to work historically. 

Polievre in this conference remarkably suggests that what is going to help Indigenous people is a better economy and less government red tape... which of course is not defined in any way shape or form.  This is the same argument he makes for solving housing.  What he failed to comment on and what he got called out for ... is his lack of recognizing our past.  And I mean.... truly if he suggests that the solution is that resources taken or used on Indigenous land goes back into their communities.... well.... first I don't believe him and second... doesn't that kind of mean our entire country?  To me it was completely tone deaf... and will likely set him up for failure should he be elected. 

To break it down into crayons... to me he sounded like he was saying:   'Don't look to us to solve your problems... we're going to give you the resources to solve your own problems..'    Meanwhile.. the problem is that the government smashed the shit out of their home, and instead of lending a hand to rebuild.... they just provide a bunch of shovels and mortar and say 'you're welcome.' 

DarthMaeglin

I don’t know if this is pointless or silly but hoping we can have a moment of unity getting behind our Prime Minister’s statement on yesterday’s tragedy in the US and we can show our solidarity with our southern neighbours and friends.

Spunkie

DarthMaeglin said:

Unfortunately I still have to disagree with your view that a genocide is ongoing. Outside of the systematic racism that you mentioned, virtually everything else are acts of the past and not currently happening.

The suit for the opioid class action because of the disproportionate Indigenous people that are killed compared to Canadians hasn't even been created yet. It's definitely not an act of the past. Same goes for the class action that's in the process of being certified about sterilization and forced abortion. This is the present. And yes, women are still being killed. Remember how much fuss there was about having to spend money to dig them out of the garbage dump? 

Therefore, ongoing.

The number of incarcerated Indigenous people are higher than other Canadians - same thing about kids being taken from their families. The latter is presently being addressed with new indigenous government agency over our children and paying off 40 grand each for those who suffered from Indigenous Service Canada removing kids off reserve, etc (class action grew to include off reserve and other poor/delayed/non-existent social services).

You are right the residential schools were in the past. Canada was hoping to be a leader on human rights. I know our BC educational system has new standards (standard 19) for teachers to incorporate FNIM teachings. One out of 10 Indigenous people will receive a tertiary education compared to four of 10 of their Canadian peers.

Whether you want to call this genocide or not, it's ongoing.

I didn't even bring up our healthcare system. Many of those workers are learning to treat us better. My sister got hit on her bike by a car yesterday. The ambulance didn't take her to the hospital. My mom had to take her (bloodied head injury, bruises, and broken collarbone) to the hospital. An Indigenous patient navigator (a job which I once applied for) had to get the nurse to take action, make diagnostic orders, so that might sister would receive proper treatment.

I have personal anecdotes within my immediate family for each one of these atrocities. In the past, my ass.