Canadian Politics Redux

Parksy

Zod said:

Why do they have to put the waste in a populated area?  Can't they find somewhere remote, build an access road, and keep it away from a populated area?

Comes down to money and quite possibly feasibility....  this project will take many years and lot of people.  The closer to an existing infrastructure and labour pool, the better. 

What I find very interesting about this...  is A: They NEED to figure something out by law.  B: What happens if both communities strike it down? 

If I'm a leader in either community, the smart play is to reject this currently.  Treat it like a union negotiation if you have leverage. 

Parksy

DarthMaeglin said:

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

I called it unfortunate simply because I truly believe in equality before the law for all, so in many ways I do see all protests as equal (but again, I do understand what you’re saying). Having said that, though, the worst laws are absolute (though there needs to be some sort of common starting point), so I think we agree on that?

As far as students being “paying customers”, that’s not wrong, except as I see it they’re paying for access to the school’s facilities (teachers, labs, libraries), paying tuition doesn’t give them the right to camp out on the institution’s property (why would anyone pay for residence or outside housing then?). From what I’ve observed U of T is following the law by giving more than appropriate notice (as I understand the law, the police could have been asked to enforce the law yesterday at 4pm). And the actual students in the camp are subject to academic penalties as well, the fact the university has raised this point strongly suggests the occupiers are in violation of the student code of conduct.

 I suppose my next step should be to read U of T’s code of conduct for its students and faculty (since faculty are involved in the occupation as well).

If you understand what I'm saying...  how do you still see all protests as equal? 

To me, your existential 'belief' in equality before the law contradicts the fundamental understanding that properties and people are all not the same.  Actions are not all the same. Speech... is not all the same. 

The 'paying customers' example is just describing the difference. Which.. IS a difference.  

I should have been clearer in stating that for me the starting point needs to be one of equality,  I believe I said above that the worst laws are absolute however there should be a common standard to start with. 

No one has yet addressed the reported incidents tied to the encampment,  which needs to be examined.  At every turn the encampment has blamed these on outside agitators but that requires some sort of corroboration. 

I stand by everyone's ability to understand a point but not agree with or accept it. I also accept that I'm nothing if not a ball of contradictions. 

As far as students being "paying customers", if I purchase something in a store that doesn't give me the right to set up camp in the store to engage in a protest,  and I don't really see this as much different.  I already said that I'm ok with giving the students (faculty is different and stickier) some extra leash to play with but they had their time, which now makes it time for a grown-up lesson. 

The faculty at U of T just held a press conference and they clearly disagree with me in that they asserted repeatedly that THEY (with the students) are the university,  not the institution itself.  Guess the courts will get to decide. 

I also want to say that I'd have a much easier time with the protests if they weren't blatantly one-sided and there hadn't (at last reporting) been more than one problematic incident every day. 

Just out of curiosity... are you willing and able to criticize the Freedom Convoy for the same things? 

The paying customer example was one of citing a difference between a city street and private property, to be clear. 

These incidents that haven't been addressed... what are they? 

As I see it I'm applying the standards that were seemingly settled on as a result of the Freedom Convoy,  it's that simple. I still don't agree with how that protest was handled,  at least with the university protests the administration (government) is engaging in dialogue instead of insulting the protesters. But consensus was that the Ottawa protest was overboard and that should set the precedent for future protests.

As far as the reports of incidents at the U of T protest,  the reporting hasn't been more specific than numbers (I believe it was 38 reports over 21 days) and vague descriptions of hateful comments,  intimidation and denial of access. There was a clip I saw yesterday of a masked protester openly praising Hitler.  However the fact that the individual was asked/told to leave by the main group makes me disassociate that individual from the larger protest.  If the students want to claim that all the problematic incidents can be traced to outside agitators then I do feel it's on them to either prove their assertion or else wait for the outcome of the investigations.  But these incidents should not be ignored or glossed over.

So... in a long form you're saying "no." 

I'll take this away from this discussion...  a person like you seems to act similarly to Trudeau and the Liberals (some of them).

They cherry picked certain things from the Freedom Convoy and focused the public's attention on that and that alone. Became super political for obvious reasons.

Going back to the start of this issue...  my point is that comparing the two can be done certainly... but after comparing.. they're most certainly not the same and shouldn't be judged upon the same. 

Spunkie

Zod said:

Why do they have to put the waste in a populated area?  Can't they find somewhere remote, build an access road, and keep it away from a populated area?

I find the area, close to the great lakes, a bit iffy for the States, but good for Canada.

Spunkie

Also it's interesting how First Nations might not want this waste to pass through their area moving there. But as we've seen with the latest pipeline, that doesn't matter.

PJ_Soul

Robert Pickton is dead! Good news.

DarthMaeglin

PJ_Soul said:

Robert Pickton is dead! Good news.

I don't often rejoice at the death of a fellow human being,  but when I do it's for pieces of human garbage like this.  (Poor attempt at a riff of the Dos Equis beer ads, lol, apologies. )

When I read that there is a 51 year old suspect,  my thought was "Could we maybe shave a few years off his sentence? "

Spunkie

I was amazed when the cops finally bothered to catch him since he wasn't killing upstanding, white citizens. The news of him inserting various weapons into women and then grinding them up into meat sold and consumed locally was vicious. But still, nobody bothered looking for a killer of mostly Indigenous, sex-trade, substance dependant women for a very long time.The police impeded this investigation as some of them enjoyed his parties.

I was not so surprised that a killer preying on the vulnerable gets killed in prison. The first news story was quick to say the correctional institution had nothing to do with it.

Hopefully survivors and family members of those women killed don't have to be retraumatized by seeing his name in print anymore. I'm going to go take a bath and Wash this Dirt Off. Fortunately, most of the people who ate those women don't know and don't think of this.

DarthMaeglin

I'm so sorry to hear about your experience and just want to express gratitude that you're still here.

For what it's worth if my post was overly callous I apologize and I'll remove it if you want. 

Spunkie

It's ok, DM

PJ_Soul

Oh wow Spunkie. That is terrifying and shocking and I'm so sorry you have to live with those memories. I think it's creepy that I even live within 10km of that place, so I certainly can't imagine how you might feel. I admire you for being so open and sharing that, as it can't be easy.

Spunkie

Go swim across Sasamat for me!

Now back to politics... hmmm....

Zod

We're still stuck with 3 parties and 3 leaders, none of which really have a plan or idea to solve most of the current problems.   I predict that regardless of who wins the 2025 election, when the term ends, they'll have left Canada in worse shape than they inherited it   Mostly because I'm deep in my 40s now, and I don't recall too many of governments actually improving much of anything.

Parksy

Zod said:

We're still stuck with 3 parties and 3 leaders, none of which really have a plan or idea to solve most of the current problems.   I predict that regardless of who wins the 2025 election, when the term ends, they'll have left Canada in worse shape than they inherited it   Mostly because I'm deep in my 40s now, and I don't recall too many of governments actually improving much of anything.

Yep.  I have zero faith. Hope... all lost. To me what is needed is very drastic change. In order for change to happen, sacrifices would need to be made, concessions would need to be made.  Therein lies the problem. No one wants to admit their wrong. No party, no leader, and hardly any citizens these days.  Empathy and understanding... out the window. 

Private sector corporate mentality is no different... if anything kind of worse. Excess wealth, lying, corruption, exploitation... all with one purpose in mind:  Make things better for 'me' or 'us.'  'Us' as in our company. Politically.. 'us' as in party. 

In politics.. leaders lie through their skin daily to hoodwink people for votes. It's become so bad in Canada and on steroids in the States that an authentic politician would be utterly shocking.  They lie so much and so regularly that it has become remarkably accepted by the people.... and amongst other politicians... telling the truth would be way too dangerous to the establishment. 

Tony D'Amato said it best: "either we heal now, as a team... or we will die as individuals." 

erebus

You would think the leader of the opposition would be required and want top security clearance.

PJ_Soul

erebus said:

You would think the leader of the opposition would be required and want top security clearance.

I know it wouldn't exactly be practical, but these days, I think my idea of that would depend on who the leader of the opposition is, lol.

HughFreakingDillon

Canada is preparing for US civil war (msn.com)

DarthMaeglin

Here’s a more fulsome article, odd that we’re not dusting off a file that already wargamed this scenario, but we do have a record of ignoring previous analyses (see SARS and covid).

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/06/11/canada-us-civil-war-00162521

Parksy

I think no matter what, we're in for hard times if Trump is re-elected.   That said... our election would be right around the corner and if Trump wins, I do not want Trudeau as PM under any circumstances.  

I've recently been made aware of some of Trumps platform promises and this fucked up albeit seemingly real Project 2025 stuff.   Full straight up dictatorship stuff. 

If he gets in again... my Pearl Jam fund will become my prepping fund. lol 

HughFreakingDillon

Parksy said:

I think no matter what, we're in for hard times if Trump is re-elected.   That said... our election would be right around the corner and if Trump wins, I do not want Trudeau as PM under any circumstances.  

I've recently been made aware of some of Trumps platform promises and this fucked up albeit seemingly real Project 2025 stuff.   Full straight up dictatorship stuff. 

If he gets in again... my Pearl Jam fund will become my prepping fund. lol 

so you think we'd be more secure with PP if trump gets back in?

DarthMaeglin

Parksy said:

I think no matter what, we're in for hard times if Trump is re-elected.   That said... our election would be right around the corner and if Trump wins, I do not want Trudeau as PM under any circumstances.  

I've recently been made aware of some of Trumps platform promises and this fucked up albeit seemingly real Project 2025 stuff.   Full straight up dictatorship stuff. 

If he gets in again... my Pearl Jam fund will become my prepping fund. lol 

I agree things will get turbulent if Trump gets in again, but American democracy withstood his first Presidency and I personally believe that it would navigate a Trump return.

That said I’m not familiar with the Project 2025 thing so I’ll have to look it up later, I’m nervous about your preview though (lol?).