threat to democracy? I think you've jumped the shark on this one.
no one becomes violent until they do. My point was it easily could have been interpreted that he MIGHT. the guy who was confronting JT didn't appear to have the same threatening body language. You simply cannot blanket all confrontations into one basket. Every situation is different.
threat to democracy? I think you've jumped the shark on this one.
no one becomes violent until they do. My point was it easily could have been interpreted that he MIGHT. the guy who was confronting JT didn't appear to have the same threatening body language. You simply cannot blanket all confrontations into one basket. Every situation is different.
this argument is becoming rather bizarre.
The threat to democracy is out of Mendacious Mendicino’s mouth (as well as others), I didn’t make it up. I’m just the reporter in that instance.
You’re right, no one is violent until they are. And they can go from calm to violent in the blink of an eye, hence my blanket statement. Who would be a bigger threat, this Edmonton guy or a (hypothetical) 5’2” guy who no one knows has a 10th degree black belt until he starts moving? One or two posts back you suggested that in Edmonton the man should have been tackled to the ground by the (non-existent in this case) security detail BEFORE he became violent. I’m EXTREMELY leery of starting to engage in pre-crime, which is essentially what you were suggesting.
Yes, what I’m suggesting could allow any potential threat to get a shot or two off before security can react, I don’t deny that. You’re asking for anyone who openly displays hostility should be met with violence before they themselves (MAYBE) become violent. While my suggestion could lead to tragedy, at least it’s not borderline authoritarian as I see your suggestion.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
this ape exhibited pre-violent behaviour. if not tackled to the ground, at least detained. this is not strange. security forces do this all the time with threats they deem imminent/possible.
the 5'2" black belt wouldn't exhibit any noticeable imminent threat, so no, he likely wouldn't be "taken down" just because he's mad, and as I said about the guy who confronted JT, it was handled/not handled the way it should have, because he wasn't considered an threat.
I'm sorry I don't know how else to explain this: it was a combination of "massive guy vs smaller woman" and how hostile he seemed, his language, body and verbal. it's not this preposterous notion that "big people can't complain" or whatever it is you're saying my point is.
the guy looked disheveled and unhinged. he should be investigated. he's most likely just a harmless oaf that got off on letting off some steam on someone more powerful than he. but if they find an arsenal in his basement, then...
this ape exhibited pre-violent behaviour. if not tackled to the ground, at least detained. this is not strange. security forces do this all the time with threats they deem imminent/possible.
the 5'2" black belt wouldn't exhibit any noticeable imminent threat, so no, he likely wouldn't be "taken down" just because he's mad, and as I said about the guy who confronted JT, it was handled/not handled the way it should have, because he wasn't considered an threat.
I'm sorry I don't know how else to explain this: it was a combination of "massive guy vs smaller woman" and how hostile he seemed, his language, body and verbal. it's not this preposterous notion that "big people can't complain" or whatever it is you're saying my point is.
the guy looked disheveled and unhinged. he should be investigated. he's most likely just a harmless oaf that got off on letting off some steam on someone more powerful than he. but if they find an arsenal in his basement, then...
Judge a book by its cover. Fair enough I suppose, as long as there’s heavy penalties when the judgment is wrong (as it would have been if the Edmonton man had been tackled preemptively).
Your description of the Edmonton man (nothing about the woman?) speaks volumes to me about why we will never agree on this.
I had hoped to hear more than just one other perspective on this but I’ll just have to be patient. I believe I have explained my own point of view thoroughly and more or less clearly, even if it’s not agreed with.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I had to put the bowl down for a minute to eat a bit of crow here.
I’ll agree that the encounter is problematic, though I remain unbothered by how the confrontation ultimately unfolds.
What could (and maybe should) be looked into is why these people were, by all appearances, trying to track Freeland down. Beyond that, for all we know what we saw in the video is all that was intended (which I’ll still allow for unfortunately). And Hugh’s right, an investigation should be par for the course. If anything criminal is found and provable (such as a kidnapping plot or shooting), I hope my record here shows I’d be fine then with throwing the book at them. Lately I’ve not been given much reason to have faith in the organization but I’ll have to trust to the RCMP (and hopefully Edmonton Police if they’re not already the federal force).
I’m guessing the guy that seems to work in the building (that the big guy points out) is getting some shit for tipping off the group. I’d possibly be ok with that guy getting some heat for disclosing the Deputy PM’s potential location (especially with her lack of security). While I’ll admit to looking at Trudeau’s posted itinerary (open and transparent my ass) regularly I haven’t looked at Freeland’s (they were posting hers alongside his for a while and I did look a couple times then, but they removed hers before covid I believe). No doubt he’s part of the investigation as well.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
this ape exhibited pre-violent behaviour. if not tackled to the ground, at least detained. this is not strange. security forces do this all the time with threats they deem imminent/possible.
the 5'2" black belt wouldn't exhibit any noticeable imminent threat, so no, he likely wouldn't be "taken down" just because he's mad, and as I said about the guy who confronted JT, it was handled/not handled the way it should have, because he wasn't considered an threat.
I'm sorry I don't know how else to explain this: it was a combination of "massive guy vs smaller woman" and how hostile he seemed, his language, body and verbal. it's not this preposterous notion that "big people can't complain" or whatever it is you're saying my point is.
the guy looked disheveled and unhinged. he should be investigated. he's most likely just a harmless oaf that got off on letting off some steam on someone more powerful than he. but if they find an arsenal in his basement, then...
Judge a book by its cover. Fair enough I suppose, as long as there’s heavy penalties when the judgment is wrong (as it would have been if the Edmonton man had been tackled preemptively).
Your description of the Edmonton man (nothing about the woman?) speaks volumes to me about why we will never agree on this.
I had hoped to hear more than just one other perspective on this but I’ll just have to be patient. I believe I have explained my own point of view thoroughly and more or less clearly, even if it’s not agreed with.
why does my description of him speak volumes about why we'll never agree?
this ape exhibited pre-violent behaviour. if not tackled to the ground, at least detained. this is not strange. security forces do this all the time with threats they deem imminent/possible.
the 5'2" black belt wouldn't exhibit any noticeable imminent threat, so no, he likely wouldn't be "taken down" just because he's mad, and as I said about the guy who confronted JT, it was handled/not handled the way it should have, because he wasn't considered an threat.
I'm sorry I don't know how else to explain this: it was a combination of "massive guy vs smaller woman" and how hostile he seemed, his language, body and verbal. it's not this preposterous notion that "big people can't complain" or whatever it is you're saying my point is.
the guy looked disheveled and unhinged. he should be investigated. he's most likely just a harmless oaf that got off on letting off some steam on someone more powerful than he. but if they find an arsenal in his basement, then...
Judge a book by its cover. Fair enough I suppose, as long as there’s heavy penalties when the judgment is wrong (as it would have been if the Edmonton man had been tackled preemptively).
Your description of the Edmonton man (nothing about the woman?) speaks volumes to me about why we will never agree on this.
I had hoped to hear more than just one other perspective on this but I’ll just have to be patient. I believe I have explained my own point of view thoroughly and more or less clearly, even if it’s not agreed with.
why does my description of him speak volumes about why we'll never agree?
You’re incredibly condescending to the guy without giving him any benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he’s disheveled and unhinged because he’s been living in his truck for the last 6 months in part due to Trudeau government policies?
And calling him an ape is disgusting. Try doing that with someone who has darker skin, I’m quite sure the condemnation would be almost universal.
To me that tells me you’re unwilling to even consider the other side in this, hence we won’t be arriving at any sort of compromise or agreement.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
why would I give someone who calls a woman a C*NT any benefit of the doubt? hahaha. seriously.
condemnation would be warranted in that context. but not here. one is racist, one is describing how I see him act and how he comes off intellectually in the video. not even in the same universe.
Fair enough, it’s cool to look down our noses at our fellow humans, the standard has been set and accepted (not by me though, sorry). So much for tolerance and any attempt at understanding. I make a suggestion that might explain this man’s anger and it’s apparently ignored because he used dirty words and looked a certain way.
I was hoping my late night post might have changed the tenor of the discussion but it clearly hasn’t (since many of my suggestions and assertions were seemingly ignored in favour of focusing on the man’s appearance).
And for the record I do feel that she’s a **** based on everything I’ve seen and heard from her over the years. So I suppose that makes me a Neanderthal to many, and that is their choice.
I think I’m done here since I’ve done more to shift my perspective than any of the discussion here.
Edited to bleep a word I apologize for using in full given how offensive it is to women. I hope the edit carries through any quotes of this post.
Post edited by DarthMaeglin on
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I focused on his appearance as ONE of the factors to illustrate why she might have been fearful ONLY (the other being his actions).
what tenor? all I have said all along was this guy acted like an oaf and there is good reason he should be investigated. that's it.
interesting you can call her a c*nt based on her actions and then make note of us "looking down our noses" at the oaf based on his actions.
I know far more (and guess most here do as well) about Freeland than any of us knows about the guy. We are allowed to make judgments based on a fulsome picture, which there’s nothing approaching that in regards to the guy. Does anyone know anything about this guy other than one 2 minute clip? That’s nothing near the fulsome picture I mentioned. Freeland’s been in the public eye (BY CHOICE) over 7 years now and has made enough statements and been part of a controversial (to many) government whose policies have had a direct negative impact in the province she was doing business in (not on her personal time). That’s why I feel qualified to pass some degree of judgment on her but need quite a bit more information to judge him. I really needed to explain this?
The days of pieing our politicians (or anyone I suppose) are dead and gone as well.
Now I’m done and won’t comment further (unless addressed directly as in this case) until the RCMP update the public on any investigation. Of course if nothing arises from the investigation we may never hear about it again from them.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I focused on his appearance as ONE of the factors to illustrate why she might have been fearful ONLY (the other being his actions).
what tenor? all I have said all along was this guy acted like an oaf and there is good reason he should be investigated. that's it.
interesting you can call her a c*nt based on her actions and then make note of us "looking down our noses" at the oaf based on his actions.
I know far more (and guess most here do as well) about Freeland than any of us knows about the guy. We are allowed to make judgments based on a fulsome picture, which there’s nothing approaching that in regards to the guy. Does anyone know anything about this guy other than one 2 minute clip? That’s nothing near the fulsome picture I mentioned. Freeland’s been in the public eye (BY CHOICE) over 7 years now and has made enough statements and been part of a controversial (to many) government whose policies have had a direct negative impact in the province she was doing business in (not on her personal time). That’s why I feel qualified to pass some degree of judgment on her but need quite a bit more information to judge him. I really needed to explain this?
The days of pieing our politicians (or anyone I suppose) are dead and gone as well.
Now I’m done and won’t comment further (unless addressed directly as in this case) until the RCMP update the public on any investigation. Of course if nothing arises from the investigation we may never hear about it again from them.
I’m just bouncing through to acknowledge that I am in the wrong and shouldn’t call her what I did. Thanks to this conversation (and my own statements) I’ll work to remember the gender-neutral “asshole” (am I allowed the joke that it’s because everyone has one?).
For what it’s worth I do feel stupid and ashamed for so blatantly not following my own words here. And I do sincerely apologize for that.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Hopefully this will, in fact, be my last post for a bit.
I want to apologize to the women out there who read my post using a word you consider incredibly offensive. I have no excuse for this because there isn’t one. Vulgarity is one thing but as I understand it that word is the verbal equivalent of kick in the nuts, one can’t get lower (which I realize is an ironic statement given my above posts supporting the Edmonton group).
Rarely do I remove words from my posts beyond for grammatical reasons but this time I blanked it out, trusting it carries through any quotes of the post. I’ve written this post for any women that read my post but won’t see the edit.
This is absolutely not intended to throw shade at Hugh for alluding to it (as I was typing it occurred to me this could be seen as doing so). Not in any way, so please don’t misunderstand me. This is about my personal responsibility for typing the word in full and leaving it there. I feel genuinely badly (as I should).
Thank you for listening (reading).
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Ok, I know I’ll be drawing a fair bit of heat for saying this, and I am, in fact, just trying to understand this.
What is so wrong with what happened to Chrystia Freeland over the weekend?
Now I’ll attempt to explain why these reactions are over the top to me. First, there was seemingly nothing planned about the encounter. The people literally just happened to be in the building when Freeland walked in. Yes, they used vulgarities and called her names, but I’ll suggest we’ve all been aware of equal or stronger expressions on both sides of the aisle.
Further, none of the clips I’ve seen show anything approaching any sort of threat and neither did they make her gender part of the “attack”.
If the problem is the differences in stature (the implied intimidation), are we then saying only short people can express anger directly to our elected representatives? That’s not equal rights to me.
She’s a public figure, accosted in public, and she is (supposedly) second-in-command of a controversial government (to put it mildly), and where said government has seemingly been pissing on that region, such receptions should almost be expected (wasn’t it Trudeau the First that gave us the West Coast Salute as a reaction to hostile crowds?). As a public figure I feel it’s on her to develop thicker skin than most since as a public figure I feel she’s game for public criticism (politicians have zero problems with public affection).
Personally, the only way lines would have been crossed is if they had showed up at Freeland’s personal residence, a practice I find reprehensible, but that’s not what happened here.
If there’s footage of the encounter that shows verbal threats or attempts at an assault I will eat crow and change my stance but at the moment this feels like we’re being told we can’t express ourselves directly to our elected officials, something I do see as a cornerstone of an open democracy. There is also the possible angle that this is problematic in part because it was white right-wingers.
If I thought for a second that Freeland would have given these people a couple minutes of her time (instead of rushing into the elevator and hiding behind the other women present) that would change my view on this as well.
And to wrap up, for clarity, I’m calling for the maintenance of the right to yell “Fuck Trudeau” to his face right along with your right to yell “Fuck Poilievre” to his face. It cuts both ways and both sides are equally responsible for any deterioration of the political climate.
To start.. there is a line in the sand here between what is considered illegal and worthy of investigation and what is considered just poor behaviour.
I've had this discussion for many years now with regards to 'free speech.' Interestingly, my boss and I were discussing the Woodstock '99 documentary and I said to him: "That documentary shows what society becomes without order and law."
I immediately thought of the whole 'freedom' BS. No one has absolute freedom.. and that's exactly how I personally want it. The same laws and regulations that ought to prevent that fellow from doing what he did... are the same laws that prevent me from being able to kick his teeth in for doing it.
So I look at this D-Bag who followed Freeland to an elevator yelling at her and yes absolutely intimidating her. And without getting too complicated I ask myself... should this be allowed? My answer is no, absolutely not. So therefore, what mechanisms do we have to prevent this stuff? Does it mean we have to deny this asshole his freedom to do that crap? Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm sorry, but I'm very much willing to sacrifice that D-Bag's freedom to approach a woman like a large barking dog to protect HER freedom to NOT have to deal with it. Simple as that.
Maybe the next time, a server at a restaurant accidentally forgets an order. He now what? Has the right to yell at her abusively because of freedom of speech? Hell no.
Respect is respect. Whether it's a politician or a hockey referee. Simply because they are in a particular position does not make them any less human. You wanna speak up against a politician? Peaceful protest and voting. Write to their office. But keep it peaceful.. keep it dignified.
Now.. I highly doubt the Capt. Alberta D-Bag would be perfectly ok... totally... absolutely fine and dandy if I went to his wife's workplace or his daughter's school and spoke to them and approached them the way he did to Freeland.
So to your point about this behaviour being expected... that is disgusting. We have elections for this indifference. That is a just, fair, and decent society. I will never... ever... consider that to be acceptable. Not to any politician and not to any political party.
Ask not... what your country can do for you... but what you can do for your country.
Be the better people. Don't constantly look at politicians as the benchmark for what Canada is. Be the people that Canada is. Be courteous. Be kind. Be respectful. Be peaceful.
If folks 'on the right' or the freedom convoy types or the Pierre Polievre fans out there... if they consider this behaviour OK.. and 'expected' then my hope and my honest belief is that they will never see power in Canada. Ever.
Freedom to do and say whatever you want wherever you want whenever you want to whomever you want.. is not the cornerstone of democracy.
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and no, I don't agree that any public figure should "grow a thicker skin" to deal with this stuff. when you normalize this, then the next incident will be an escalation (assault, etc). This shit needs to be snuffed out.
100%
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and no, I don't agree that any public figure should "grow a thicker skin" to deal with this stuff. when you normalize this, then the next incident will be an escalation (assault, etc). This shit needs to be snuffed out.
Then why hasn’t the escalation been called out along the way? I won’t give an inch on blaming both sides, sorry.
And I do feel that anyone who CHOOSES to put themselves in the public light (including entertainers and sports figures) then they need to prepare themselves to deal with the criticisms as well as the worship.
and no, I don't agree that any public figure should "grow a thicker skin" to deal with this stuff. when you normalize this, then the next incident will be an escalation (assault, etc). This shit needs to be snuffed out.
Then why hasn’t the escalation been called out along the way? I won’t give an inch on blaming both sides, sorry.
And I do feel that anyone who CHOOSES to put themselves in the public light (including entertainers and sports figures) then they need to prepare themselves to deal with the criticisms as well as the worship.
Dude.. this is so beyond criticism. So beyond. I hadn't even seen the whole thing until now and while I thought maybe what I saw the other day was blown out of proportion a bit.. now I see the whole thing and this is absolutely harassment and intimidation. My goodness graciousness. How can any Canadian condone this or consider it expected? That's disturbing.
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Since America and Canada both share this 'freedom' and 'democracy' ... Are you Darth suggesting that Trump should have expected and tolerated this kind of behaviour from Americans, majority of whom did NOT vote for him?
Ask yourself... in fact... picture it in your mind... what would have happened to any person who approached Trump like that.
Take a minute... picture it... substitute Freeland for Trump ... picture it.
Now picture what would happen to that person.. who in your mind was expressing their rights to complain about a government.
And then surmise what the public opinion would be in regards to that person who more than likely has since been arrested and roughed up a bit?
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My apologies because like.. my blood almost boils at this.
There is a section of a the population of Canada... I'm going to wishfully call it a FRINGE MINORITY because I honestly hope these types of people are a fringe minority...
This section of people.. not only condone what this fellow did... but they are sitting at home watching this and cheering this man on. They're saying "fuckin eh.. wish I could have been there."
That's not Canada. That's not Canadian.
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Since America and Canada both share this 'freedom' and 'democracy' ... Are you Darth suggesting that Trump should have expected and tolerated this kind of behaviour from Americans, majority of whom did NOT vote for him?
Ask yourself... in fact... picture it in your mind... what would have happened to any person who approached Trump like that.
Take a minute... picture it... substitute Freeland for Trump ... picture it.
Now picture what would happen to that person.. who in your mind was expressing their rights to complain about a government.
And then surmise what the public opinion would be in regards to that person who more than likely has since been arrested and roughed up a bit?
Thank you for sharing your perspective.
I had intentionally tried not to reference events south of the border, but I do recall hearing of several instances of people associated with the Trump administration being similarly harassed in public. If there had been the same (loud) universal condemnation of those incidents I would have an easier time condemning this man. But I believe many of the arguments I’ve put forward were used at the time to justify those interactions. The lines can’t shift just because we don’t like who is doing it, which is what I keep observing unfortunately.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Since America and Canada both share this 'freedom' and 'democracy' ... Are you Darth suggesting that Trump should have expected and tolerated this kind of behaviour from Americans, majority of whom did NOT vote for him?
Ask yourself... in fact... picture it in your mind... what would have happened to any person who approached Trump like that.
Take a minute... picture it... substitute Freeland for Trump ... picture it.
Now picture what would happen to that person.. who in your mind was expressing their rights to complain about a government.
And then surmise what the public opinion would be in regards to that person who more than likely has since been arrested and roughed up a bit?
Thank you for sharing your perspective.
I had intentionally tried not to reference events south of the border, but I do recall hearing of several instances of people associated with the Trump administration being similarly harassed in public. If there had been the same (loud) universal condemnation of those incidents I would have an easier time condemning this man. But I believe many of the arguments I’ve put forward were used at the time to justify those interactions. The lines can’t shift just because we don’t like who is doing it, which is what I keep observing unfortunately.
Also trying not to do this... any evidence to support that claim that anything remotely close to what happened to Freeland happened to Trump? I'll eat crow if you have some.
These aren't one size fits all situations. Last night at Biden's speech you had a fellow on a bullhorn yelling "Let's Go Brandon" during his speech and "Fuck Joe Biden." So there's that. Is that different than him following Biden... cursing and yelling at him, pointing at him, screaming that he doesn't belong here? Well... yes in my opinion, very, very, much so.
And this illustrates my point about freedoms... up to and including Charter protected and fundamental freedoms. They're all limited. Every one of them.
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In this article what Pence was faced with I wouldn’t consider harassment or abuse but a protest. Unfortunately many of the examples cited here involve people being accosted on what could be their personal time (which I do object to, which isn’t always obvious to the masses), and protesting at another’s house (another of my firm lines).
On a separate note, I’ll go back and check my posts but I’m not sure if I’ve actually been crystal clear that, while I’m supporting this guy’s choice to say and act as he did, I do find his words objectionable and unfortunate but not as extremely as most clearly do. I say unfortunate because while I likely do support his reasons for doing what he did (they never identify any specific grievances) it’s also true his words do nothing to advance the cause or make it appealing to others. I liked to think I wouldn’t do as he did but clearly still have work to do myself.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
In this article what Pence was faced with I wouldn’t consider harassment or abuse but a protest. Unfortunately many of the examples cited here involve people being accosted on what could be their personal time (which I do object to, which isn’t always obvious to the masses), and protesting at another’s house (another of my firm lines).
On a separate note, I’ll go back and check my posts but I’m not sure if I’ve actually been crystal clear that, while I’m supporting this guy’s choice to say and act as he did, I do find his words objectionable and unfortunate but not as extremely as most clearly do. I say unfortunate because while I likely do support his reasons for doing what he did (they never identify any specific grievances) it’s also true his words do nothing to advance the cause or make it appealing to others. I liked to think I wouldn’t do as he did but clearly still have work to do myself.
The bolded above is what I remarkably disagree with. It is harassment and intimidation and should not be tolerated in any office, street, or elevator.
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Buffalo 2013 Toronto I&II 2016 10C: 220xxx
In this article what Pence was faced with I wouldn’t consider harassment or abuse but a protest. Unfortunately many of the examples cited here involve people being accosted on what could be their personal time (which I do object to, which isn’t always obvious to the masses), and protesting at another’s house (another of my firm lines).
On a separate note, I’ll go back and check my posts but I’m not sure if I’ve actually been crystal clear that, while I’m supporting this guy’s choice to say and act as he did, I do find his words objectionable and unfortunate but not as extremely as most clearly do. I say unfortunate because while I likely do support his reasons for doing what he did (they never identify any specific grievances) it’s also true his words do nothing to advance the cause or make it appealing to others. I liked to think I wouldn’t do as he did but clearly still have work to do myself.
The bolded above is what I remarkably disagree with. It is harassment and intimidation and should not be tolerated in any office, street, or elevator.
And I do understand that that is the majority view here, fair enough.
One of the worst parts of my having brought up the Edmonton encounter is that none of us were talking about the Laith Marouf business where the federal government hired someone to draw up an anti-racism strategy who it turns out is a raging anti-Semite (and possible racist) himself (all of which would have been found with a simple google search apparently).
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
What does the Laith Marouf issue have to do with the clown accosting Freeland? I'm confused.
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What does the Laith Marouf issue have to do with the clown accosting Freeland? I'm confused.
No reason we shouldn’t be talking about both is my point. I wasn’t going to introduce a second topic when I was having difficulty defending my point of view on the first subject. I’d been hoping someone else might have brought it up, since the Marouf business is far more troubling (to me) than a single goof in Alberta. Marouf’s language on public internet forums was just as offensive as anything Edmonton guy said (still confused why the women are rarely mentioned). And Marouf received hundreds of thousands of dollars from the federal government.
I own my own part in giving a good smokescreen to distract from this government’s incompetence (a google would have found what a piece of shit Marouf is, but I suspect he ticked too many diversity boxes to warrant close inspection).
Seriously (and this is a general question not directed only at you Parksy), what will it take for people to be critical of this Trudeau’s government? SNC was downplayed and excused, there’s a climate hypocrite in the top job, we’ve had several recent allegations about Lucki being too close to the PMO, hell, we had a terrorist attack happen during the Occupation of Ottawa that we’ve heard far less about, and here, more often than not, there’s crickets. It’s just more than a bit confusing to me, in all honesty.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
there's plenty wrong with the trudeau government, as you pointed out. But as I've said many, many times, the other options, in my eyes, are much, much worse. I will happily vote for someone else who doesn't seem to be a bigger buffoon than JT.
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no one becomes violent until they do. My point was it easily could have been interpreted that he MIGHT. the guy who was confronting JT didn't appear to have the same threatening body language. You simply cannot blanket all confrontations into one basket. Every situation is different.
this argument is becoming rather bizarre.
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You’re right, no one is violent until they are. And they can go from calm to violent in the blink of an eye, hence my blanket statement. Who would be a bigger threat, this Edmonton guy or a (hypothetical) 5’2” guy who no one knows has a 10th degree black belt until he starts moving? One or two posts back you suggested that in Edmonton the man should have been tackled to the ground by the (non-existent in this case) security detail BEFORE he became violent. I’m EXTREMELY leery of starting to engage in pre-crime, which is essentially what you were suggesting.
Yes, what I’m suggesting could allow any potential threat to get a shot or two off before security can react, I don’t deny that. You’re asking for anyone who openly displays hostility should be met with violence before they themselves (MAYBE) become violent. While my suggestion could lead to tragedy, at least it’s not borderline authoritarian as I see your suggestion.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
the 5'2" black belt wouldn't exhibit any noticeable imminent threat, so no, he likely wouldn't be "taken down" just because he's mad, and as I said about the guy who confronted JT, it was handled/not handled the way it should have, because he wasn't considered an threat.
I'm sorry I don't know how else to explain this: it was a combination of "massive guy vs smaller woman" and how hostile he seemed, his language, body and verbal. it's not this preposterous notion that "big people can't complain" or whatever it is you're saying my point is.
the guy looked disheveled and unhinged. he should be investigated. he's most likely just a harmless oaf that got off on letting off some steam on someone more powerful than he. but if they find an arsenal in his basement, then...
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Your description of the Edmonton man (nothing about the woman?) speaks volumes to me about why we will never agree on this.
I had hoped to hear more than just one other perspective on this but I’ll just have to be patient. I believe I have explained my own point of view thoroughly and more or less clearly, even if it’s not agreed with.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I’ll agree that the encounter is problematic, though I remain unbothered by how the confrontation ultimately unfolds.
What could (and maybe should) be looked into is why these people were, by all appearances, trying to track Freeland down. Beyond that, for all we know what we saw in the video is all that was intended (which I’ll still allow for unfortunately). And Hugh’s right, an investigation should be par for the course. If anything criminal is found and provable (such as a kidnapping plot or shooting), I hope my record here shows I’d be fine then with throwing the book at them. Lately I’ve not been given much reason to have faith in the organization but I’ll have to trust to the RCMP (and hopefully Edmonton Police if they’re not already the federal force).
I’m guessing the guy that seems to work in the building (that the big guy points out) is getting some shit for tipping off the group. I’d possibly be ok with that guy getting some heat for disclosing the Deputy PM’s potential location (especially with her lack of security). While I’ll admit to looking at Trudeau’s posted itinerary (open and transparent my ass) regularly I haven’t looked at Freeland’s (they were posting hers alongside his for a while and I did look a couple times then, but they removed hers before covid I believe). No doubt he’s part of the investigation as well.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
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And calling him an ape is disgusting. Try doing that with someone who has darker skin, I’m quite sure the condemnation would be almost universal.
To me that tells me you’re unwilling to even consider the other side in this, hence we won’t be arriving at any sort of compromise or agreement.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
condemnation would be warranted in that context. but not here. one is racist, one is describing how I see him act and how he comes off intellectually in the video. not even in the same universe.
www.headstonesband.com
Fuck that sack of shit.
I was hoping my late night post might have changed the tenor of the discussion but it clearly hasn’t (since many of my suggestions and assertions were seemingly ignored in favour of focusing on the man’s appearance).
And for the record I do feel that she’s a **** based on everything I’ve seen and heard from her over the years. So I suppose that makes me a Neanderthal to many, and that is their choice.
I think I’m done here since I’ve done more to shift my perspective than any of the discussion here.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
what tenor? all I have said all along was this guy acted like an oaf and there is good reason he should be investigated. that's it.
interesting you can call her a c*nt based on her actions and then make note of us "looking down our noses" at the oaf based on his actions.
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The days of pieing our politicians (or anyone I suppose) are dead and gone as well.
Now I’m done and won’t comment further (unless addressed directly as in this case) until the RCMP update the public on any investigation. Of course if nothing arises from the investigation we may never hear about it again from them.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
www.headstonesband.com
Seriously. It seems pretty ridiculous.
For what it’s worth I do feel stupid and ashamed for so blatantly not following my own words here. And I do sincerely apologize for that.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I want to apologize to the women out there who read my post using a word you consider incredibly offensive. I have no excuse for this because there isn’t one. Vulgarity is one thing but as I understand it that word is the verbal equivalent of kick in the nuts, one can’t get lower (which I realize is an ironic statement given my above posts supporting the Edmonton group).
Rarely do I remove words from my posts beyond for grammatical reasons but this time I blanked it out, trusting it carries through any quotes of the post. I’ve written this post for any women that read my post but won’t see the edit.
This is absolutely not intended to throw shade at Hugh for alluding to it (as I was typing it occurred to me this could be seen as doing so). Not in any way, so please don’t misunderstand me. This is about my personal responsibility for typing the word in full and leaving it there. I feel genuinely badly (as I should).
Thank you for listening (reading).
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I've had this discussion for many years now with regards to 'free speech.' Interestingly, my boss and I were discussing the Woodstock '99 documentary and I said to him: "That documentary shows what society becomes without order and law."
I immediately thought of the whole 'freedom' BS. No one has absolute freedom.. and that's exactly how I personally want it. The same laws and regulations that ought to prevent that fellow from doing what he did... are the same laws that prevent me from being able to kick his teeth in for doing it.
So I look at this D-Bag who followed Freeland to an elevator yelling at her and yes absolutely intimidating her. And without getting too complicated I ask myself... should this be allowed? My answer is no, absolutely not. So therefore, what mechanisms do we have to prevent this stuff? Does it mean we have to deny this asshole his freedom to do that crap? Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm sorry, but I'm very much willing to sacrifice that D-Bag's freedom to approach a woman like a large barking dog to protect HER freedom to NOT have to deal with it. Simple as that.
Maybe the next time, a server at a restaurant accidentally forgets an order. He now what? Has the right to yell at her abusively because of freedom of speech? Hell no.
Respect is respect. Whether it's a politician or a hockey referee. Simply because they are in a particular position does not make them any less human. You wanna speak up against a politician? Peaceful protest and voting. Write to their office. But keep it peaceful.. keep it dignified.
Now.. I highly doubt the Capt. Alberta D-Bag would be perfectly ok... totally... absolutely fine and dandy if I went to his wife's workplace or his daughter's school and spoke to them and approached them the way he did to Freeland.
So to your point about this behaviour being expected... that is disgusting. We have elections for this indifference. That is a just, fair, and decent society. I will never... ever... consider that to be acceptable. Not to any politician and not to any political party.
Ask not... what your country can do for you... but what you can do for your country.
Be the better people. Don't constantly look at politicians as the benchmark for what Canada is. Be the people that Canada is. Be courteous. Be kind. Be respectful. Be peaceful.
If folks 'on the right' or the freedom convoy types or the Pierre Polievre fans out there... if they consider this behaviour OK.. and 'expected' then my hope and my honest belief is that they will never see power in Canada. Ever.
Freedom to do and say whatever you want wherever you want whenever you want to whomever you want.. is not the cornerstone of democracy.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
Since America and Canada both share this 'freedom' and 'democracy' ... Are you Darth suggesting that Trump should have expected and tolerated this kind of behaviour from Americans, majority of whom did NOT vote for him?
Ask yourself... in fact... picture it in your mind... what would have happened to any person who approached Trump like that.
Take a minute... picture it... substitute Freeland for Trump ... picture it.
Now picture what would happen to that person.. who in your mind was expressing their rights to complain about a government.
And then surmise what the public opinion would be in regards to that person who more than likely has since been arrested and roughed up a bit?
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
There is a section of a the population of Canada... I'm going to wishfully call it a FRINGE MINORITY because I honestly hope these types of people are a fringe minority...
This section of people.. not only condone what this fellow did... but they are sitting at home watching this and cheering this man on. They're saying "fuckin eh.. wish I could have been there."
That's not Canada. That's not Canadian.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
I had intentionally tried not to reference events south of the border, but I do recall hearing of several instances of people associated with the Trump administration being similarly harassed in public. If there had been the same (loud) universal condemnation of those incidents I would have an easier time condemning this man. But I believe many of the arguments I’ve put forward were used at the time to justify those interactions. The lines can’t shift just because we don’t like who is doing it, which is what I keep observing unfortunately.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
These aren't one size fits all situations. Last night at Biden's speech you had a fellow on a bullhorn yelling "Let's Go Brandon" during his speech and "Fuck Joe Biden." So there's that. Is that different than him following Biden... cursing and yelling at him, pointing at him, screaming that he doesn't belong here? Well... yes in my opinion, very, very, much so.
And this illustrates my point about freedoms... up to and including Charter protected and fundamental freedoms. They're all limited. Every one of them.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
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Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/25/politics/maxine-waters-trump-officials/index.html
In this article what Pence was faced with I wouldn’t consider harassment or abuse but a protest. Unfortunately many of the examples cited here involve people being accosted on what could be their personal time (which I do object to, which isn’t always obvious to the masses), and protesting at another’s house (another of my firm lines).
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/06/27/list-trump-officials-harassed/739928002/
On a separate note, I’ll go back and check my posts but I’m not sure if I’ve actually been crystal clear that, while I’m supporting this guy’s choice to say and act as he did, I do find his words objectionable and unfortunate but not as extremely as most clearly do. I say unfortunate because while I likely do support his reasons for doing what he did (they never identify any specific grievances) it’s also true his words do nothing to advance the cause or make it appealing to others. I liked to think I wouldn’t do as he did but clearly still have work to do myself.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
One of the worst parts of my having brought up the Edmonton encounter is that none of us were talking about the Laith Marouf business where the federal government hired someone to draw up an anti-racism strategy who it turns out is a raging anti-Semite (and possible racist) himself (all of which would have been found with a simple google search apparently).
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
I own my own part in giving a good smokescreen to distract from this government’s incompetence (a google would have found what a piece of shit Marouf is, but I suspect he ticked too many diversity boxes to warrant close inspection).
Seriously (and this is a general question not directed only at you Parksy), what will it take for people to be critical of this Trudeau’s government? SNC was downplayed and excused, there’s a climate hypocrite in the top job, we’ve had several recent allegations about Lucki being too close to the PMO, hell, we had a terrorist attack happen during the Occupation of Ottawa that we’ve heard far less about, and here, more often than not, there’s crickets. It’s just more than a bit confusing to me, in all honesty.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
www.headstonesband.com