I’ve obviously been supportive of the dreaded Freedom Convoy but this is one of the ways they lose some of that support. I just generally don’t like when one protest tries to hijack another.
I've obviously been thoroughly against the Freedom Convoy... and for obvious reasons.
Keep in mind... their original agenda was never protest. Ever. Nor was in democratic in any way. We're learning recently that the organizers had every intention to plug Ottawa and disrupt the city (and it's residents).
To each their own with whatever cause they have... I don't agree at all with their particular cause.. but that aside... I liken their tactics to cabbies and truckers who protest by plugging up roadways. I never understood how inconveniencing the public could gain any support especially when you have social media to get messages to thousands of people etc.
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I do realize many here are fine with not dialogueing with those protesters, for me the problem arises from all the other protesters and occupations that were tolerated and engaged with.
More and more as we learn what transpired within the government I do have to wonder at what point criminal charges might apply (not that I have any faith in Lucki).
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
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honestly, I don't think you can compare engaging with this convoy and any other group. Has any other group held an international border hostage? an entire city's downtown? not that I'm aware of.
honestly, I don't think you can compare engaging with this convoy and any other group. Has any other group held an international border hostage? an entire city's downtown? not that I'm aware of.
The rail blockades were having a sizeable economic impact for one, and I do remember quite a number of local residents being very upset with the Occupy movement.
As far as criminal charges against the government, I actually doubt there’s anything that would apply. I guess I still think there need to be penalties applied if the EMA was enacted recklessly. Again, I want to stress that a large part of my concern here is for the precedent that is being set in this case with a very low bar. I’m not just trying to look out for the groups I agree with but also (maybe even especially) those I don’t agree with. And I do continue to look at how previous protests were handled because I don’t see the disconnect that you and others do.
I guess I’ll say if a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, then a protest is a protest is a protest (as opposed to the G20 riots I watched live on tv one weekend).
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
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And as French suggests in the article, what was the harm in waiting a couple days to see if anything material came out of the negotiations? This looks and smells to me like Trudeau pouring gasoline on the fire instead of giving suppresants a chance.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
well, to say it again, I think he was under immense pressure from the US admin to solve the problem.
Honestly, if that’s truly what happened then Trudeau should just come clean as to his motivations and begin the process of making us the 51st state (or would we be allowed to join as 13 states perhaps?).
By the time the EMA was brought into effect, the borders were either fully open or well on their way to being so. The EMA was used at a time when it truly was a local protest. And again, what would the harm have been in waiting 2-3 days to see if the negotiations bore any fruit?
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I don't think that bowing to political pressure of a neighbouring country that is your biggest ally leads to becoming part of that country. this happens all the time. just not always in the news.
I don't think that bowing to political pressure of a neighbouring country that is your biggest ally leads to becoming part of that country. this happens all the time. just not always in the news.
I get what you’re saying, but if Trudeau was willing to let things fester and only took action when Biden called, and with the reaction he had (EMA, piss on any potential of a peaceful resolution), then can we be assured that Trudeau is, in fact, acting independently and in the best interests of the nation he’s supposed to be governing? For me it’s a trick question because he keeps hamstringing our economy with unproven environmental policies (but then again, look at his personal carbon footprint, he’s undeniably a hypocrite on that file).
Could Trudeau not have told Biden that he was going to wait a couple days to see if the situation could be resolved peacefully? I do honestly question how much Trudeau’s ego came into play as we learn more and more. And I haven’t been able to figure out one single thing the federal government did to try to diffuse tensions (in fact what I saw from the outset was the exact opposite).
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
And just to correct myself, not all border crossings were unblocked when the EMA was used, I believe the Vancouver area was still fully closed. But the same laws that cleared the other blockades surely could have applied there as well.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Said it before and will say again... I don't see the problem with the Emergencies Act. That said.. I do understand the appearances here and how Trudeau made himself a target for the Conservatives who day by day continue going down the rabbit hole of right wing nuttery.
What separates the Freedom Convoy from any other protest/event/occupation, etc. is the attention it got. International attention and social media attention unlike anything Canada has ever seen in my lifetime.
The Convoy got support from A LOT of right wingers in the American media juggernaut. That to me is the biggest difference here. Fox News, The Trump Fucks, Tucker Fuckson, etc. And these people have ALOT of clout... which is beyond shameful... but I digress.
Then you have Biden asking for something to happen because of the impact of the economies. And then the gov't enacts the emergencies act.
The narrative nowadays is... and I can't believe people are eating this stuff...
(Wait... I have to stop here for a second. If you look closely, amongst the folks reporting on this plainly and unbiasedly AGAINST Trudeau is the CBC. Just putting that there for those who may still believe the CBC are Trudeau's propaganda machine.)
So the narrative is that negotiations were still ongoing with representatives for the Convoy and if we just waited a bit... the Liberals wouldn't have needed to use the Act.
Two things about that:
1. Trudeau wouldn't be able to take any credit for resolving the issue and politically he wanted that. (I'll get to that) 2. This whole story in itself is speculative. MAYBE it would have resolved through negotiation. No one knows for sure if that would have happened. Meanwhile... people are still pissed. America is pissed. Ottawa is pissed. Regular citizens are pissed.
So for those haters of Trudeau who think well there ya have it.. it was politically motivated. Well... of course it was. Who was Trudeau going to appease by using any power to put an end to those illegal blockades and occupations? Me, for one. Majority of the public, for two. US Federal government, for three. Now... regardless of where you find yourself on the political spectrum... do you honestly think that given the same opportunity... no other PM would do the same?
That string of people is important by the way before we go and say "let's just admit we're the 51st state." Broken record once again... we JUST completed an election. Break that shit down. 8+ Million voted Liberal / NDP. Around 6 million voted Conservative / PPC. That is a representative majority. That is social democracy. Full stop... and sorry for those who lost. So to think that Trudeau's actions were JUST to appease USA... negative. He had the Canadian voter support behind him as well.... again, sorry for those who didn't get their way, such is life. Just because we don't drive around with "F Trudeau" flags and spew garbage and nonsense on the net... doesn't mean we don't exist.. and doesn't mean we didn't vote.
These recent stories are making it seem like Trudeau went way beyond and did something that he absolutely didn't need to do. But I have to say... there's just no evidence to suggest that.
If there was some sort of public notice and a statement from these convoy organizer-criminals saying they were going home... and THEN Trudeau enacted the Emergencies Act... I could then MAYBE get on board with this criticism... but that quite simply did not happen.
I'll politely request this as well... here we are Aug 2022. What harm did Trudeau's actions cause? How did he damage the country in any way by using the Act? With respect... hoping to learn something new. Like... 'Trudeau, that rat bastard, used the Emergencies Act and now (insert bad thing here).'
Interestingly... when I try to see things objectively and contemplate not only what we're seeing from the American right politicians these days but also what Trudeau said during all of this... apart from his 'fringe minority' comment... combine that with everything else he said. It's easy to focus on that, sure... but what else did he say? And importantly, what else DIDN'T he say?
He asked politely almost daily for the 'protesters' to leave peacefully. For three fucking weeks. He commented almost daily that he wanted to separate state from policing. He did not want to interfere or tell the police what to do. He cautioned almost daily for the occupation to end.
Contrast that if you can.... to how figures like Trump or Bolsonaro ... or by golly for those idiots out there who still claim Trudeau is some sort of dictator and we are being oppressed... Putin, Erdogan, Ill, the Taliban... would have acted. Think about that.
Trudeau did in fact have an opportunity.. a GOLDEN opportunity to really dig his heels into identity politics and the culture war. Think about it. I personally have nothing but negative and nasty shit to say about the Freedom Convoy.. clearly. Trudeau could have used this issue as a lightning rod to take my kind of rhetoric and throw it into the political firestorm here. I'm happy to say he didn't. Given the circumstances... he quite honestly kept his cool. I probably wouldn't have... and those authoritarians mentioned above REALLY wouldn't have.
As an example more recently you have the Mayor of Peterborough going on social media and telling right wing protesters to "fuck off, you fuck wads." Which... is how I honestly feel about them. But is that type of childish rhetoric from a politician going to do any good... other than score points with the likes of me? No. Trudeau could have done the same and would have in fact got him a lot of attention and scored him a lot of points with 'lefties' and the 'radical left'.... but he didn't. He deserves credit for that... in my opinion. (Long rant over)
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I have noticed the CBC angle as well. people claiming they are liberal state media then posting articles by them criticizing Trudeau. lol.
I also kind of find the "fringe minority" thing pretty laughable. I mean, that's the worst thing he said? that's pretty bubble gum. And it wasn't even false. 5 or 10 percent of the industry. that is exactly what a fringe minority is.
I have noticed the CBC angle as well. people claiming they are liberal state media then posting articles by them criticizing Trudeau. lol.
I also kind of find the "fringe minority" thing pretty laughable. I mean, that's the worst thing he said? that's pretty bubble gum. And it wasn't even false. 5 or 10 percent of the industry. that is exactly what a fringe minority is.
I agree... but I do think that at times Trudeau and the Liberals do the same thing as the Conservatives do. In the House of Commons so much was made about the swastikas and Trump flags, during the freedom occupation etc. In a sense, the Liberals cherry picked certain aspects of what was going on and type-casted the whole group which of course is what made media stories. In a similar fashion, the Cons did the same thing but took it to a whole different level.
To me it's important that everyone... especially those in Parliament start acting with sense and class and maturity. Not to say there aren't any currently... but for whatever reason due to (in my opinion) social media and the public's remarkably short span of attention... the ones who are fiery and come up with the zingers and ultimately engage in 'bullshit' ... they're the ones that get the limelight... the attention... the coverage... which leads to popularity.. which leads to leadership roles.
The best politicians in Canada... be it Con, Lib, NDP are often the ones you never hear about.
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I have noticed the CBC angle as well. people claiming they are liberal state media then posting articles by them criticizing Trudeau. lol.
I also kind of find the "fringe minority" thing pretty laughable. I mean, that's the worst thing he said? that's pretty bubble gum. And it wasn't even false. 5 or 10 percent of the industry. that is exactly what a fringe minority is.
Part of why I keep posting CBC articles is paywalls, as well as how other sources I’ve posted seem to have been dismissed out of hand as biased.
I do still feel the CBC isn’t challenging this government on their claims, today Mendicino is running around Hamilton touting how they’ve seized more guns at the border this year compared to 2020. To me that’s a gross misrepresentation (for the obvious reason of covid) that isn’t challenged until one scrolls down to the comments. And my own experience has been that the comments are moderated in favour of the left’s supporters.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I have noticed the CBC angle as well. people claiming they are liberal state media then posting articles by them criticizing Trudeau. lol.
I also kind of find the "fringe minority" thing pretty laughable. I mean, that's the worst thing he said? that's pretty bubble gum. And it wasn't even false. 5 or 10 percent of the industry. that is exactly what a fringe minority is.
I agree... but I do think that at times Trudeau and the Liberals do the same thing as the Conservatives do. In the House of Commons so much was made about the swastikas and Trump flags, during the freedom occupation etc. In a sense, the Liberals cherry picked certain aspects of what was going on and type-casted the whole group which of course is what made media stories. In a similar fashion, the Cons did the same thing but took it to a whole different level.
To me it's important that everyone... especially those in Parliament start acting with sense and class and maturity. Not to say there aren't any currently... but for whatever reason due to (in my opinion) social media and the public's remarkably short span of attention... the ones who are fiery and come up with the zingers and ultimately engage in 'bullshit' ... they're the ones that get the limelight... the attention... the coverage... which leads to popularity.. which leads to leadership roles.
The best politicians in Canada... be it Con, Lib, NDP are often the ones you never hear about.
I completely agree with your last two paragraphs there.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I have noticed the CBC angle as well. people claiming they are liberal state media then posting articles by them criticizing Trudeau. lol.
I also kind of find the "fringe minority" thing pretty laughable. I mean, that's the worst thing he said? that's pretty bubble gum. And it wasn't even false. 5 or 10 percent of the industry. that is exactly what a fringe minority is.
Part of why I keep posting CBC articles is paywalls, as well as how other sources I’ve posted seem to have been dismissed out of hand as biased.
I do still feel the CBC isn’t challenging this government on their claims, today Mendicino is running around Hamilton touting how they’ve seized more guns at the border this year compared to 2020. To me that’s a gross misrepresentation (for the obvious reason of covid) that isn’t challenged until one scrolls down to the comments. And my own experience has been that the comments are moderated in favour of the left’s supporters.
don't you think that can come down to the tone of those posting? usually the tone of those that don't like the government tend to post angrier comments than those who favour the government. I'm sure when the next conservative is in power, the comment section will most likely be moderated to get rid of liberal commenters. Don't you think?
I have noticed the CBC angle as well. people claiming they are liberal state media then posting articles by them criticizing Trudeau. lol.
I also kind of find the "fringe minority" thing pretty laughable. I mean, that's the worst thing he said? that's pretty bubble gum. And it wasn't even false. 5 or 10 percent of the industry. that is exactly what a fringe minority is.
Part of why I keep posting CBC articles is paywalls, as well as how other sources I’ve posted seem to have been dismissed out of hand as biased.
I do still feel the CBC isn’t challenging this government on their claims, today Mendicino is running around Hamilton touting how they’ve seized more guns at the border this year compared to 2020. To me that’s a gross misrepresentation (for the obvious reason of covid) that isn’t challenged until one scrolls down to the comments. And my own experience has been that the comments are moderated in favour of the left’s supporters.
don't you think that can come down to the tone of those posting? usually the tone of those that don't like the government tend to post angrier comments than those who favour the government. I'm sure when the next conservative is in power, the comment section will most likely be moderated to get rid of liberal commenters. Don't you think?
I say this based on my own experiences with having comments deactivated. I’ve called people out for posting (easily verifiable) misinformation and it’s my comment that gets taken down. I’ve been censored for referring to the CGL attack (which occurred during the convoy protests) as a terrorist incident.
Part of the problem is that it may be dependent on individuals flagging comments but there doesn’t appear to be any checking by the moderators. I’ll fully admit I don’t know the details of how their systems operate.
There is quite a bit of nastiness towards the right that is seemingly allowed to stand, I suggest people scroll down occasionally to get a taste of what I’m talking about.
And yes, to be fair, there is plenty of nastiness on all sides, it’s a joke when I’ve tried to inject some reason into the discussion (like yesterday suggesting EVERYONE needs to prepare for the inquiry and committee findings to go counter to our desires. I was immediately hit from both sides, lol).
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
The slinging is only going to get worse once Pierre P gets the Conservative leadership
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interesting. I see way more nastiness coming FROM the right most times.
And it really may just come down to us each focusing on the treatment of our respective “sides”. If the CBC’s moderation of comments is entirely user-driven that’s problematic to me for everyone and hinders a fulsome discussion.
I always liked the Qui-Gon line in Star Wars “…your focus determines your reality”. There’s obviously more to it than just that but I see it as a good starting point to gain an overall perspective.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I have noticed the CBC angle as well. people claiming they are liberal state media then posting articles by them criticizing Trudeau. lol.
I also kind of find the "fringe minority" thing pretty laughable. I mean, that's the worst thing he said? that's pretty bubble gum. And it wasn't even false. 5 or 10 percent of the industry. that is exactly what a fringe minority is.
Part of why I keep posting CBC articles is paywalls, as well as how other sources I’ve posted seem to have been dismissed out of hand as biased.
I do still feel the CBC isn’t challenging this government on their claims, today Mendicino is running around Hamilton touting how they’ve seized more guns at the border this year compared to 2020. To me that’s a gross misrepresentation (for the obvious reason of covid) that isn’t challenged until one scrolls down to the comments. And my own experience has been that the comments are moderated in favour of the left’s supporters.
don't you think that can come down to the tone of those posting? usually the tone of those that don't like the government tend to post angrier comments than those who favour the government. I'm sure when the next conservative is in power, the comment section will most likely be moderated to get rid of liberal commenters. Don't you think?
I see what Darth is saying here.. but there is a 'fine line' element here. CBC, etc. report the news.
If a politician says a thing.. the news reports the thing he says. That's personally where I want my news to stop. It's up to me to now find out if what the politician is saying is bullshit or not and draw my own conclusions. And historically... I take anything and everything any politician says with a grain of skepticism. In my opinion it's very important to understand that while Mendocino is spinning a story or event to make him and his party look good... you can bet your keester that the Cons will do the exact same thing.
The problem with expecting the 'push back' from media is that we now find ourselves wrapped up in biased, agenda filled media. And it most certainly goes both ways and in my honest opinion is drastically overboard with right wing media.
The only time I can see where journalists have merit is when they are at the source or the scene and they ask the question. That's the push back. Press conferences, media scrums. When the journalist is face to face with the politician. But print journalism, web journalism, TV journalism... I like when they just tell us what happened. That's all. I don't need them or want them to then tell me what I should think or feel about what the politician said. "News" has become analysis of the news, not news.
To your point, and it's valid... touting gun victories is silly and out of context. Of course. But biased media will not only highlight that... they'll shove it down your throat and then it becomes non-stop negative stories and spins which is bad because more often than not, whenever that politician makes a good point, a valid argument, or passes good legislation... its either ignored or spun because they (let's use The Sun as an example) have already convinced you that Liberals are bad. To speak good of them now risks their fanbase.
^
This is what's tearing America apart.
You as a citizen have to use your own brain to figure out what's fact and fiction. What's bullshit, what's valid. What's a win, what's a loss. And then... use all that information and vote. We're being sold information every day. Treat it like buying a car from a greasy salesman.
The dream is to have a politician who isn't a greasy salesperson. I've yet to come across or see one in my adult lifetime. The first sign of that will be when a politician can stand up and outline the mistakes they or they're party have made before they attack a different party.
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unfortunately you lose the game if you play fair. self-criticizing is a death knell. it's too bad, but that cat is out of the bag and can't go back in. politics is now a team sport and everyone has to pick a side, and it sucks.
utter the words "yes, we failed, we have to do better" and you are almost guaranteeing yourself not getting reelected.
unfortunately you lose the game if you play fair. self-criticizing is a death knell. it's too bad, but that cat is out of the bag and can't go back in. politics is now a team sport and everyone has to pick a side, and it sucks.
utter the words "yes, we failed, we have to do better" and you are almost guaranteeing yourself not getting reelected.
100% correct
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You’re both making excellent points which I agree with for the most part. Not going to touch on who is being more biased but…
I personally feel that if the media wants to be respected as the “fourth estate” (not sure I used the correct term, apologies), then they have a duty, as Parksy says to focus on the facts, but that also includes (for me) calling out false claims, especially those put out by the government. Reporting bad facts (without fact-checking) makes them complicit in spreading false information. If they’re going to be a blind mouthpiece for government then they’re definitely part of the problem, more akin to propagandists than journalists.
We just sat through 4 years of the media (on both sides) spinning every word Trump uttered to fit their bias. This includes our northern media as well. I’ve watched in the last 3 elections the Conservative leader has had to explain their stance on abortion and gay rights almost daily. Trudeau gets caught performing racist acts and after 2 days it was virtually swept under the rug. That alone strikes me as a huge double standard in their coverage.
Remember how heading into the 2015 election we heard daily about Duffy’s trial and it was linked to the Conservative party? I honestly wonder if that coverage helped influence the outcome, but I doubt anyone took the time to consider or study that.
One last point for clarity (that probably doesn’t need to be made), I’m entirely referring to straight reporting, not (opinion) columns. When it comes to columns I expect bias, along with what I hope to be fair and thorough analysis (usually disappointed on that last bit since both sides have no problem spinning facts).
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Another thing I question more and more about the current political environment and practices is how this all effects the children and what lessons they draw from what they observe. I’m honestly fearful of where we’re headed in that regard.
Looking back I’m incredibly thankful my parents worked to instil tolerance and understanding as core values. That’s not meant to cast shade at today’s parents, those I know are doing the best they can and I’m referring to external influences, not parental.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
You’re both making excellent points which I agree with for the most part. Not going to touch on who is being more biased but…
I personally feel that if the media wants to be respected as the “fourth estate” (not sure I used the correct term, apologies), then they have a duty, as Parksy says to focus on the facts, but that also includes (for me) calling out false claims, especially those put out by the government. Reporting bad facts (without fact-checking) makes them complicit in spreading false information. If they’re going to be a blind mouthpiece for government then they’re definitely part of the problem, more akin to propagandists than journalists.
We just sat through 4 years of the media (on both sides) spinning every word Trump uttered to fit their bias. This includes our northern media as well. I’ve watched in the last 3 elections the Conservative leader has had to explain their stance on abortion and gay rights almost daily. Trudeau gets caught performing racist acts and after 2 days it was virtually swept under the rug. That alone strikes me as a huge double standard in their coverage.
Remember how heading into the 2015 election we heard daily about Duffy’s trial and it was linked to the Conservative party? I honestly wonder if that coverage helped influence the outcome, but I doubt anyone took the time to consider or study that.
One last point for clarity (that probably doesn’t need to be made), I’m entirely referring to straight reporting, not (opinion) columns. When it comes to columns I expect bias, along with what I hope to be fair and thorough analysis (usually disappointed on that last bit since both sides have no problem spinning facts).
there wasn't much about trump that needed to be spun, lol, but I do understand your point. There were several times I openly asked here if something he did/said was truly that awful or if people just hammered him because of who he was (the whole "fist in the air proves he's a nazi" narrative of the couple days is a prime example). I got lambasted and called a Trump supporter, as preposterous as that notion is.
To Trudeau and blackface; I think that was largely because most people honestly believed him that it came from a place of ignorance and not hate. I did. I still do. People just aren't surprised when conservatives are racist. I don't think all cons are racist; far from it. But it's still not a shock to me when a con is. That is just historical bias based on where that ideology comes from.
But I disagree that it was swept under the rug in 2 days. that was big news for some time from what I recall. or maybe it was just meltdown posting the pictures 3 times a day for 6 months. lol
You’re both making excellent points which I agree with for the most part. Not going to touch on who is being more biased but…
I personally feel that if the media wants to be respected as the “fourth estate” (not sure I used the correct term, apologies), then they have a duty, as Parksy says to focus on the facts, but that also includes (for me) calling out false claims, especially those put out by the government. Reporting bad facts (without fact-checking) makes them complicit in spreading false information. If they’re going to be a blind mouthpiece for government then they’re definitely part of the problem, more akin to propagandists than journalists.
We just sat through 4 years of the media (on both sides) spinning every word Trump uttered to fit their bias. This includes our northern media as well. I’ve watched in the last 3 elections the Conservative leader has had to explain their stance on abortion and gay rights almost daily. Trudeau gets caught performing racist acts and after 2 days it was virtually swept under the rug. That alone strikes me as a huge double standard in their coverage.
Remember how heading into the 2015 election we heard daily about Duffy’s trial and it was linked to the Conservative party? I honestly wonder if that coverage helped influence the outcome, but I doubt anyone took the time to consider or study that.
One last point for clarity (that probably doesn’t need to be made), I’m entirely referring to straight reporting, not (opinion) columns. When it comes to columns I expect bias, along with what I hope to be fair and thorough analysis (usually disappointed on that last bit since both sides have no problem spinning facts).
there wasn't much about trump that needed to be spun, lol, but I do understand your point. There were several times I openly asked here if something he did/said was truly that awful or if people just hammered him because of who he was (the whole "fist in the air proves he's a nazi" narrative of the couple days is a prime example). I got lambasted and called a Trump supporter, as preposterous as that notion is.
To Trudeau and blackface; I think that was largely because most people honestly believed him that it came from a place of ignorance and not hate. I did. I still do. People just aren't surprised when conservatives are racist. I don't think all cons are racist; far from it. But it's still not a shock to me when a con is. That is just historical bias based on where that ideology comes from.
But I disagree that it was swept under the rug in 2 days. that was big news for some time from what I recall. or maybe it was just meltdown posting the pictures 3 times a day for 6 months. lol
Agreed that Trump needed no help coming across as an ass, which is part of why the spin made no sense to me. I was similarly labeled a supporter when I was only asking he be judged on what he said and did, as opposed to how he was spun. During the primaries most of my family made me feel incredibly stupid for simply arguing “don’t count him out”.
I actually agree that his first blackface performances were likely done from a place of ignorance and white privilege. I think I’m firmly on record as having more questions for the adults than I do for Trudeau with the first one or two escapades. I do wonder what his father thought, if he even knew, Pierre being one of the architects of our multiculturalism. As it turns out though Trudeau didn’t, in fact, study drama, so maybe he didn’t learn how offensive it was in school, which has been one of my main criticisms on this (but again, how did I know how wrong it was by my early 20s in the 90s?). And I still struggle to come up with a single other politician whose career would have survived such revelations.
As an aside, I do honestly hope that meltdown, wherever he is and whatever his reasons for leaving, has found some degree of peace (I honestly don’t expect it, but I’ll continue to hope for him).
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
You’re both making excellent points which I agree with for the most part. Not going to touch on who is being more biased but…
I personally feel that if the media wants to be respected as the “fourth estate” (not sure I used the correct term, apologies), then they have a duty, as Parksy says to focus on the facts, but that also includes (for me) calling out false claims, especially those put out by the government. Reporting bad facts (without fact-checking) makes them complicit in spreading false information. If they’re going to be a blind mouthpiece for government then they’re definitely part of the problem, more akin to propagandists than journalists.
We just sat through 4 years of the media (on both sides) spinning every word Trump uttered to fit their bias. This includes our northern media as well. I’ve watched in the last 3 elections the Conservative leader has had to explain their stance on abortion and gay rights almost daily. Trudeau gets caught performing racist acts and after 2 days it was virtually swept under the rug. That alone strikes me as a huge double standard in their coverage.
Remember how heading into the 2015 election we heard daily about Duffy’s trial and it was linked to the Conservative party? I honestly wonder if that coverage helped influence the outcome, but I doubt anyone took the time to consider or study that.
One last point for clarity (that probably doesn’t need to be made), I’m entirely referring to straight reporting, not (opinion) columns. When it comes to columns I expect bias, along with what I hope to be fair and thorough analysis (usually disappointed on that last bit since both sides have no problem spinning facts).
I don't want my news reporting to "push back" except where the supposed facts presented are wrong. Straight reporting, not opinion pieces, should not be "pushing back" on political spin. Your original example was: today Mendicino is running around Hamilton touting how they’ve seized more guns at the border this year compared to 2020. To me that’s a gross misrepresentation (for the obvious reason of covid) . If the Liberals claimed that they have seized more guns at the border in 2022 than in 2020 and actually is not the case, then I expect the media to point out the incorrect claim. However, if the claim is correct I do not want the media to then jump in and say "but of course it's misleading because of covid", unless it has already been proven that this was the case. If we don't have data to prove that point then it is your opinion that this is the reason. I don't want journalists to present their opinion on what the politicians are saying, I just want to hear what they actually say, and do. We all know what year covid started and can draw our own conclusions but, I hope, understand that our conclusions about cause and effect could be wrong.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Comments
https://globalnews.ca/news/9010631/pope-francis-maskwacis-freedom-convoy/
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Keep in mind... their original agenda was never protest. Ever. Nor was in democratic in any way. We're learning recently that the organizers had every intention to plug Ottawa and disrupt the city (and it's residents).
To each their own with whatever cause they have... I don't agree at all with their particular cause.. but that aside... I liken their tactics to cabbies and truckers who protest by plugging up roadways. I never understood how inconveniencing the public could gain any support especially when you have social media to get messages to thousands of people etc.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
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10C: 220xxx
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/freedom-convoy-protest-trudeau-emergencies-act-1.6552820
I do realize many here are fine with not dialogueing with those protesters, for me the problem arises from all the other protesters and occupations that were tolerated and engaged with.
More and more as we learn what transpired within the government I do have to wonder at what point criminal charges might apply (not that I have any faith in Lucki).
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
honestly, I don't think you can compare engaging with this convoy and any other group. Has any other group held an international border hostage? an entire city's downtown? not that I'm aware of.
www.headstonesband.com
As far as criminal charges against the government, I actually doubt there’s anything that would apply. I guess I still think there need to be penalties applied if the EMA was enacted recklessly. Again, I want to stress that a large part of my concern here is for the precedent that is being set in this case with a very low bar. I’m not just trying to look out for the groups I agree with but also (maybe even especially) those I don’t agree with. And I do continue to look at how previous protests were handled because I don’t see the disconnect that you and others do.
I guess I’ll say if a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, then a protest is a protest is a protest (as opposed to the G20 riots I watched live on tv one weekend).
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
www.headstonesband.com
By the time the EMA was brought into effect, the borders were either fully open or well on their way to being so. The EMA was used at a time when it truly was a local protest. And again, what would the harm have been in waiting 2-3 days to see if the negotiations bore any fruit?
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
www.headstonesband.com
Could Trudeau not have told Biden that he was going to wait a couple days to see if the situation could be resolved peacefully? I do honestly question how much Trudeau’s ego came into play as we learn more and more. And I haven’t been able to figure out one single thing the federal government did to try to diffuse tensions (in fact what I saw from the outset was the exact opposite).
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
What separates the Freedom Convoy from any other protest/event/occupation, etc. is the attention it got. International attention and social media attention unlike anything Canada has ever seen in my lifetime.
The Convoy got support from A LOT of right wingers in the American media juggernaut. That to me is the biggest difference here. Fox News, The Trump Fucks, Tucker Fuckson, etc. And these people have ALOT of clout... which is beyond shameful... but I digress.
Then you have Biden asking for something to happen because of the impact of the economies. And then the gov't enacts the emergencies act.
The narrative nowadays is... and I can't believe people are eating this stuff...
(Wait... I have to stop here for a second. If you look closely, amongst the folks reporting on this plainly and unbiasedly AGAINST Trudeau is the CBC. Just putting that there for those who may still believe the CBC are Trudeau's propaganda machine.)
So the narrative is that negotiations were still ongoing with representatives for the Convoy and if we just waited a bit... the Liberals wouldn't have needed to use the Act.
Two things about that:
1. Trudeau wouldn't be able to take any credit for resolving the issue and politically he wanted that. (I'll get to that)
2. This whole story in itself is speculative. MAYBE it would have resolved through negotiation. No one knows for sure if that would have happened. Meanwhile... people are still pissed. America is pissed. Ottawa is pissed. Regular citizens are pissed.
So for those haters of Trudeau who think well there ya have it.. it was politically motivated. Well... of course it was. Who was Trudeau going to appease by using any power to put an end to those illegal blockades and occupations? Me, for one. Majority of the public, for two. US Federal government, for three. Now... regardless of where you find yourself on the political spectrum... do you honestly think that given the same opportunity... no other PM would do the same?
That string of people is important by the way before we go and say "let's just admit we're the 51st state." Broken record once again... we JUST completed an election. Break that shit down. 8+ Million voted Liberal / NDP. Around 6 million voted Conservative / PPC. That is a representative majority. That is social democracy. Full stop... and sorry for those who lost. So to think that Trudeau's actions were JUST to appease USA... negative. He had the Canadian voter support behind him as well.... again, sorry for those who didn't get their way, such is life. Just because we don't drive around with "F Trudeau" flags and spew garbage and nonsense on the net... doesn't mean we don't exist.. and doesn't mean we didn't vote.
These recent stories are making it seem like Trudeau went way beyond and did something that he absolutely didn't need to do. But I have to say... there's just no evidence to suggest that.
If there was some sort of public notice and a statement from these convoy organizer-criminals saying they were going home... and THEN Trudeau enacted the Emergencies Act... I could then MAYBE get on board with this criticism... but that quite simply did not happen.
I'll politely request this as well... here we are Aug 2022. What harm did Trudeau's actions cause? How did he damage the country in any way by using the Act? With respect... hoping to learn something new. Like... 'Trudeau, that rat bastard, used the Emergencies Act and now (insert bad thing here).'
Interestingly... when I try to see things objectively and contemplate not only what we're seeing from the American right politicians these days but also what Trudeau said during all of this... apart from his 'fringe minority' comment... combine that with everything else he said. It's easy to focus on that, sure... but what else did he say? And importantly, what else DIDN'T he say?
He asked politely almost daily for the 'protesters' to leave peacefully. For three fucking weeks.
He commented almost daily that he wanted to separate state from policing. He did not want to interfere or tell the police what to do.
He cautioned almost daily for the occupation to end.
Contrast that if you can.... to how figures like Trump or Bolsonaro ... or by golly for those idiots out there who still claim Trudeau is some sort of dictator and we are being oppressed... Putin, Erdogan, Ill, the Taliban... would have acted. Think about that.
Trudeau did in fact have an opportunity.. a GOLDEN opportunity to really dig his heels into identity politics and the culture war. Think about it. I personally have nothing but negative and nasty shit to say about the Freedom Convoy.. clearly. Trudeau could have used this issue as a lightning rod to take my kind of rhetoric and throw it into the political firestorm here. I'm happy to say he didn't. Given the circumstances... he quite honestly kept his cool. I probably wouldn't have... and those authoritarians mentioned above REALLY wouldn't have.
As an example more recently you have the Mayor of Peterborough going on social media and telling right wing protesters to "fuck off, you fuck wads." Which... is how I honestly feel about them. But is that type of childish rhetoric from a politician going to do any good... other than score points with the likes of me? No. Trudeau could have done the same and would have in fact got him a lot of attention and scored him a lot of points with 'lefties' and the 'radical left'.... but he didn't. He deserves credit for that... in my opinion. (Long rant over)
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
I also kind of find the "fringe minority" thing pretty laughable. I mean, that's the worst thing he said? that's pretty bubble gum. And it wasn't even false. 5 or 10 percent of the industry. that is exactly what a fringe minority is.
www.headstonesband.com
To me it's important that everyone... especially those in Parliament start acting with sense and class and maturity. Not to say there aren't any currently... but for whatever reason due to (in my opinion) social media and the public's remarkably short span of attention... the ones who are fiery and come up with the zingers and ultimately engage in 'bullshit' ... they're the ones that get the limelight... the attention... the coverage... which leads to popularity.. which leads to leadership roles.
The best politicians in Canada... be it Con, Lib, NDP are often the ones you never hear about.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
www.headstonesband.com
I do still feel the CBC isn’t challenging this government on their claims, today Mendicino is running around Hamilton touting how they’ve seized more guns at the border this year compared to 2020. To me that’s a gross misrepresentation (for the obvious reason of covid) that isn’t challenged until one scrolls down to the comments. And my own experience has been that the comments are moderated in favour of the left’s supporters.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
www.headstonesband.com
Part of the problem is that it may be dependent on individuals flagging comments but there doesn’t appear to be any checking by the moderators. I’ll fully admit I don’t know the details of how their systems operate.
There is quite a bit of nastiness towards the right that is seemingly allowed to stand, I suggest people scroll down occasionally to get a taste of what I’m talking about.
And yes, to be fair, there is plenty of nastiness on all sides, it’s a joke when I’ve tried to inject some reason into the discussion (like yesterday suggesting EVERYONE needs to prepare for the inquiry and committee findings to go counter to our desires. I was immediately hit from both sides, lol).
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
www.headstonesband.com
2003: St. Paul
2005: Thunder Bay
2008: West Palm Beach, Tampa
2009: Chicago I, Chicago II
2010: Boston
2011: Toronto I, Toronto II, Winnipeg
2012: Missoula
2013: London, Pittsburgh, Buffalo
2014: St. Paul, Milwaukee
2016: Quebec City, Ottawa, Toronto I, Toronto II
2022: Hamilton, Toronto
2023: St. Paul I, St. Paul II
2024: Vancouver I, Vancouver II
I always liked the Qui-Gon line in Star Wars “…your focus determines your reality”. There’s obviously more to it than just that but I see it as a good starting point to gain an overall perspective.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
If a politician says a thing.. the news reports the thing he says. That's personally where I want my news to stop. It's up to me to now find out if what the politician is saying is bullshit or not and draw my own conclusions. And historically... I take anything and everything any politician says with a grain of skepticism. In my opinion it's very important to understand that while Mendocino is spinning a story or event to make him and his party look good... you can bet your keester that the Cons will do the exact same thing.
The problem with expecting the 'push back' from media is that we now find ourselves wrapped up in biased, agenda filled media. And it most certainly goes both ways and in my honest opinion is drastically overboard with right wing media.
The only time I can see where journalists have merit is when they are at the source or the scene and they ask the question. That's the push back. Press conferences, media scrums. When the journalist is face to face with the politician. But print journalism, web journalism, TV journalism... I like when they just tell us what happened. That's all. I don't need them or want them to then tell me what I should think or feel about what the politician said. "News" has become analysis of the news, not news.
To your point, and it's valid... touting gun victories is silly and out of context. Of course. But biased media will not only highlight that... they'll shove it down your throat and then it becomes non-stop negative stories and spins which is bad because more often than not, whenever that politician makes a good point, a valid argument, or passes good legislation... its either ignored or spun because they (let's use The Sun as an example) have already convinced you that Liberals are bad. To speak good of them now risks their fanbase.
^
This is what's tearing America apart.
You as a citizen have to use your own brain to figure out what's fact and fiction. What's bullshit, what's valid. What's a win, what's a loss. And then... use all that information and vote. We're being sold information every day. Treat it like buying a car from a greasy salesman.
The dream is to have a politician who isn't a greasy salesperson. I've yet to come across or see one in my adult lifetime. The first sign of that will be when a politician can stand up and outline the mistakes they or they're party have made before they attack a different party.
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
utter the words "yes, we failed, we have to do better" and you are almost guaranteeing yourself not getting reelected.
www.headstonesband.com
Buffalo, Phoenix, Toronto 2003
Boston I&II 2004
Kitchener, Hamilton, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2005
Toronto I&II, Las Vegas 2006
Chicago Lollapalooza 2007
Toronto, Seattle I&II, Vancouver, Philly I,II,III,IV 2009
Cleveland, Buffalo 2010
Toronto I&II 2011
Buffalo 2013
Toronto I&II 2016
10C: 220xxx
I personally feel that if the media wants to be respected as the “fourth estate” (not sure I used the correct term, apologies), then they have a duty, as Parksy says to focus on the facts, but that also includes (for me) calling out false claims, especially those put out by the government. Reporting bad facts (without fact-checking) makes them complicit in spreading false information. If they’re going to be a blind mouthpiece for government then they’re definitely part of the problem, more akin to propagandists than journalists.
We just sat through 4 years of the media (on both sides) spinning every word Trump uttered to fit their bias. This includes our northern media as well. I’ve watched in the last 3 elections the Conservative leader has had to explain their stance on abortion and gay rights almost daily. Trudeau gets caught performing racist acts and after 2 days it was virtually swept under the rug. That alone strikes me as a huge double standard in their coverage.
Remember how heading into the 2015 election we heard daily about Duffy’s trial and it was linked to the Conservative party? I honestly wonder if that coverage helped influence the outcome, but I doubt anyone took the time to consider or study that.
One last point for clarity (that probably doesn’t need to be made), I’m entirely referring to straight reporting, not (opinion) columns. When it comes to columns I expect bias, along with what I hope to be fair and thorough analysis (usually disappointed on that last bit since both sides have no problem spinning facts).
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
Looking back I’m incredibly thankful my parents worked to instil tolerance and understanding as core values. That’s not meant to cast shade at today’s parents, those I know are doing the best they can and I’m referring to external influences, not parental.
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
To Trudeau and blackface; I think that was largely because most people honestly believed him that it came from a place of ignorance and not hate. I did. I still do. People just aren't surprised when conservatives are racist. I don't think all cons are racist; far from it. But it's still not a shock to me when a con is. That is just historical bias based on where that ideology comes from.
But I disagree that it was swept under the rug in 2 days. that was big news for some time from what I recall. or maybe it was just meltdown posting the pictures 3 times a day for 6 months. lol
www.headstonesband.com
I actually agree that his first blackface performances were likely done from a place of ignorance and white privilege. I think I’m firmly on record as having more questions for the adults than I do for Trudeau with the first one or two escapades. I do wonder what his father thought, if he even knew, Pierre being one of the architects of our multiculturalism. As it turns out though Trudeau didn’t, in fact, study drama, so maybe he didn’t learn how offensive it was in school, which has been one of my main criticisms on this (but again, how did I know how wrong it was by my early 20s in the 90s?). And I still struggle to come up with a single other politician whose career would have survived such revelations.
As an aside, I do honestly hope that meltdown, wherever he is and whatever his reasons for leaving, has found some degree of peace (I honestly don’t expect it, but I’ll continue to hope for him).
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 2022
I don't want my news reporting to "push back" except where the supposed facts presented are wrong. Straight reporting, not opinion pieces, should not be "pushing back" on political spin. Your original example was: today Mendicino is running around Hamilton touting how they’ve seized more guns at the border this year compared to 2020. To me that’s a gross misrepresentation (for the obvious reason of covid) . If the Liberals claimed that they have seized more guns at the border in 2022 than in 2020 and actually is not the case, then I expect the media to point out the incorrect claim. However, if the claim is correct I do not want the media to then jump in and say "but of course it's misleading because of covid", unless it has already been proven that this was the case. If we don't have data to prove that point then it is your opinion that this is the reason. I don't want journalists to present their opinion on what the politicians are saying, I just want to hear what they actually say, and do. We all know what year covid started and can draw our own conclusions but, I hope, understand that our conclusions about cause and effect could be wrong.