Canadian Politics Redux

DarthMaeglin

Now I’m embarrassed to admit I had to turn the debate off. They weren’t really discussing the current crisis, but framed the debate as concerning relations with the indigenous people, apparently going back to the beginning of time.

The speakers were all over the place and I’ll say again the attendance is beyond pathetic, with not a single party leader in the room. I do give credit for the Minister of Indigenous Relations for being there, however.

HughFreakingDillon

so CN is laying off 450 employees, at least temporarily, because of the cancelling of rail routes in light of the blockades. trudeau needs to get a handle on this and FAST. if he wants to get out of this unscathed, which now is going to be VERY difficult, he needs to appear impartial. when protesting starts to affect people's lives in this way, it shouldn't be allowed to continue. 

however, this is IF CN can prove that the layoffs are a direct result of the blockades, and not just a continuation of their financial woes of only a few months ago. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

so CN is laying off 450 employees, at least temporarily, because of the cancelling of rail routes in light of the blockades. trudeau needs to get a handle on this and FAST. if he wants to get out of this unscathed, which now is going to be VERY difficult, he needs to appear impartial. when protesting starts to affect people's lives in this way, it shouldn't be allowed to continue. 

however, this is IF CN can prove that the layoffs are a direct result of the blockades, and not just a continuation of their financial woes of only a few months ago. 

And VIA’s laying off 1000.

I realize it’s likely not a popular viewpoint around here, but when will the rule of law prevail? Certainly the Ontario blockade is flat out illegal, and the OPP were handed a simple measure to end this one today. The protesters tweeted out a request for food and firewood. Blockade the blockade and let it turn into a hunger strike.

I’m also curious if/when the authorities finally enforce the law how quickly weapons will appear among the protesters (using recent history as a guide).

On another point, Trudeau erased any goodwill he’d built up with me recently (Iran flight, covid-19) with his petulant exclusion of Scheer from the leaders meeting yesterday because he didn’t like what Scheer said (then had the gall to speak about populism only listening to itself).

If this is Trudeau Junior’s “Just watch me” moment, he’s failed miserably.

HughFreakingDillon

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

so CN is laying off 450 employees, at least temporarily, because of the cancelling of rail routes in light of the blockades. trudeau needs to get a handle on this and FAST. if he wants to get out of this unscathed, which now is going to be VERY difficult, he needs to appear impartial. when protesting starts to affect people's lives in this way, it shouldn't be allowed to continue. 

however, this is IF CN can prove that the layoffs are a direct result of the blockades, and not just a continuation of their financial woes of only a few months ago. 

And VIA’s laying off 1000.

I realize it’s likely not a popular viewpoint around here, but when will the rule of law prevail? Certainly the Ontario blockade is flat out illegal, and the OPP were handed a simple measure to end this one today. The protesters tweeted out a request for food and firewood. Blockade the blockade and let it turn into a hunger strike.

I’m also curious if/when the authorities finally enforce the law how quickly weapons will appear among the protesters (using recent history as a guide).

On another point, Trudeau erased any goodwill he’d built up with me recently (Iran flight, covid-19) with his petulant exclusion of Scheer from the leaders meeting yesterday because he didn’t like what Scheer said (then had the gall to speak about populism only listening to itself).

If this is Trudeau Junior’s “Just watch me” moment, he’s failed miserably.

if it's illegal, then it should be shut down. 

I'm on the fence about the exclusion of scheer. I mean, he had the other leaders in with him. scheer is the outgoing leader. all he's doing right now anyway is throwing shit at the wall hoping something will stick. he's not being productive or like he wants to solve anything. he's being a whiny twit. 

on the other hand, i think you have to be the bigger person and invite all leaders regardless of what they've said publicly. all you're doing is emboldening the "no rules/corrupted trudeau" faction on the right. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

DarthMaeglin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

so CN is laying off 450 employees, at least temporarily, because of the cancelling of rail routes in light of the blockades. trudeau needs to get a handle on this and FAST. if he wants to get out of this unscathed, which now is going to be VERY difficult, he needs to appear impartial. when protesting starts to affect people's lives in this way, it shouldn't be allowed to continue. 

however, this is IF CN can prove that the layoffs are a direct result of the blockades, and not just a continuation of their financial woes of only a few months ago. 

And VIA’s laying off 1000.

I realize it’s likely not a popular viewpoint around here, but when will the rule of law prevail? Certainly the Ontario blockade is flat out illegal, and the OPP were handed a simple measure to end this one today. The protesters tweeted out a request for food and firewood. Blockade the blockade and let it turn into a hunger strike.

I’m also curious if/when the authorities finally enforce the law how quickly weapons will appear among the protesters (using recent history as a guide).

On another point, Trudeau erased any goodwill he’d built up with me recently (Iran flight, covid-19) with his petulant exclusion of Scheer from the leaders meeting yesterday because he didn’t like what Scheer said (then had the gall to speak about populism only listening to itself).

If this is Trudeau Junior’s “Just watch me” moment, he’s failed miserably.

if it's illegal, then it should be shut down. 

I'm on the fence about the exclusion of scheer. I mean, he had the other leaders in with him. scheer is the outgoing leader. all he's doing right now anyway is throwing shit at the wall hoping something will stick. he's not being productive or like he wants to solve anything. he's being a whiny twit. 

on the other hand, i think you have to be the bigger person and invite all leaders regardless of what they've said publicly. all you're doing is emboldening the "no rules/corrupted trudeau" faction on the right. 

I actually emailed Trudeau’s office to say how displeased I was about the exclusion. Scheer gave voice to what many are thinking and Trudeau’s offhanded dismissal of that point of view tells me he refuses to represent and be open to all Canadians.

While Scheer may be on his way out, he still has duties as the (even temporary) leader of the Official Opposition as well as the leader of the party that received more votes than the governing party.

HughFreakingDillon

yeah, you're right. he should have included him. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

yeah, you're right. he should have included him. 

Now, all that said, I’m back to waiting and hoping Trudeau will overturn my low expectations of him. Even if he doesn’t do what I think to be the right action.

DarthMaeglin

Now that scenes like this are starting to play out we’re really getting into dangerous territory. It does prove the theory though that when the government won’t act the citizens will.

https://nationalpost.com/news/blockade-supporting-wetsuweten-hereditary-chiefs-set-up-on-rail-line-in-edmonton

HughFreakingDillon

DarthMaeglin said:

Now that scenes like this are starting to play out we’re really getting into dangerous territory. It does prove the theory though that when the government won’t act the citizens will.

https://nationalpost.com/news/blockade-supporting-wetsuweten-hereditary-chiefs-set-up-on-rail-line-in-edmonton

i agree. we can't let this get to he point where it's left up to the citizens to solve it. it will only end in bloodshed. I'm shocked it hasn't already. thank goodness this is not america. how many shootings would have happened by now. 

DarthMaeglin

And the foolishness continues with little enforcement of the law, looks like Scheer was right, the “protest playbook” has been set.

I’m honestly concerned that we’ll reach some critical mass where the protests become counter-productive and start to create more racists (or at a minimum lose support for the cause).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/indigenous-protest-highway-6-caledonia-1.5474404

HughFreakingDillon

JT is damned if he does here, and damned if he doesn't. however, i think his soft stance may have been a mistake. he is letting them set the terms. he needs to be hardlined but say "get off the blockades and let's get to the table and bang this out". he's too wishy washy trying not to hurt anyone's feelings, or more accurately, himself politically. sometimes you just have to act. he needs to act to shut this down. 

scheer is never right. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

JT is damned if he does here, and damned if he doesn't. however, i think his soft stance may have been a mistake. he is letting them set the terms. he needs to be hardlined but say "get off the blockades and let's get to the table and bang this out". he's too wishy washy trying not to hurt anyone's feelings, or more accurately, himself politically. sometimes you just have to act. he needs to act to shut this down. 

scheer is never right. 

Or is Scheer...always right (sorry, I just couldn't resist,  lol).

I completely agree though, the PM's damned either way at this point.  I want to give him credit for (finally,  eventually) giving the police the implicit green light to shut down the blockades on Friday,  but now, as you said, he needs to follow through.  Both on maintaining law and order as well as continuing the reconciliation agenda. First up should be getting the safe water flowing on the reserves, my understanding is they solved less than half the issues on that one over 4 years,  and that's one that can (I'll even suggest must) happen as the government works on land claims and the other issues. 

Unfortunately,  part of the problem seems to be inconsistent leadership structures within some First Nations communities,  such as the Wet'suet'en.  This article I stumbled across highlights some of the issues (to put it mildly) within that specific tribe, one of how many nationwide?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-second-wetsuweten-hereditary-wing-chief-voices-concerns-about/

Meltdown99

What do you want to be done?  First nations people have plenty of legit concerns.  Now they found a way to disrupt Canada, and they are doing it peacefully...

DarthMaeglin

Meltdown99 said:

What do you want to be done?  First nations people have plenty of legit concerns.  Now they found a way to disrupt Canada, and they are doing it peacefully...

For me it’s fairly straightforward, and I suspect we’ll be agreeing to disagree based on your assertion that the blockades are peaceful. While we have the rights of free speech (with limitations) and freedom of assembly, for me having punches thrown is not the standard for peaceful assembly. We don’t have a right to impede the movement of fellow citizens or camp out on private property, to say nothing of causing property damage. Especially when a court injunction is sought and granted.

 I do agree that the First Nations (immigrants themselves if we go far enough back) have some serious issues that need to be dealt with by provincial and federal governments. As I said above, continuing to hurt the Canadian public will eventually backfire and lose sympathy for their movement.

As a bit of background on myself, my family name came to this country (our lineage was traced at some point) in what would become Quebec about 450 years ago, so I identify as some of that old stock Canadian that Harper talked about and I don’t see it as a bad thing. The nearest immigrant in my family was my great grandfather. Now, does this make me more Canadian than more recent arrivals? Fuck no, I’ve never thought that. But does it make me complicit in the “colonial genocide”? Again, fuck no, with one clarification. I recently found out some women in the family (my grandparents generation) who became nuns worked at some of the residential schools. Of course our family tells it that they weren’t responsible for any of the abuse that happened, but who honestly knows? Finding that out led me to learn more about what happened, and it was absolutely a national shame.

Now, I’d like to turn your question back at you, how long do we law-abiding citizens wait to see the law enforced? When people start dying in the Maritimes due to the propane shortage?

DarthMaeglin

Meltdown99 said:

What do you want to be done?  First nations people have plenty of legit concerns.  Now they found a way to disrupt Canada, and they are doing it peacefully...

I realized I didn’t really answer your question with my above post, sorry.

As I said for me it’s pretty straightforward. They have the right to peacefully assemble in most public places (legislatures, town halls, parks) and raise their voices in protest. Another, less frequent option is to exercise the right to vote in federal, provincial and municipal elections. Maybe neither of those is as satisfying as “sticking it to the man” as is currently being done, but those are the rights we all have regardless, as long as we also respect the rights of others.

Hope that makes for a more complete answer, lol.

HughFreakingDillon

Meltdown99 said:

What do you want to be done?  First nations people have plenty of legit concerns.  Now they found a way to disrupt Canada, and they are doing it peacefully...

people losing their jobs is not "doing it peacefully". protesting illegally is not "doing it peacefully". they have every right to protest. they absolutely should protest. but this is the wrong way to do it. they aren't getting anyone on their side doing it this way. if anything, all they are doing is pissing off people that would potentially support them. they are making their own situation worse. 

DarthMaeglin

Seriously, who can call this peaceful protest? Trudeau’s failing his “just watch me” moment, and at this point he’s painted himself into a corner.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/rail-disruptions-expected-to-continue-after-new-protest-sites-emerge

Meltdown99

Well for all the injustice and inconvenience that we caused our first nations people since our ancestors arrived, I guess we can live with a few minor inconveniences...

HughFreakingDillon

Meltdown99 said:

Well for all the injustice and inconvenience that we caused our first nations people since our ancestors arrived, I guess we can live with a few minor inconveniences...

losing jobs is not a minor inconvenience. i have no issue with legal protests, and inconvenience. but now they are fucking with innocent people's lives. that's not cool. 

DarthMaeglin

Had a pretty intense discussion with a buddy over the weekend about the blockades, I was (obviously) arguing law and order, he was very much of a mind with Meltdown. In the end we had to agree to disagree and somewhat avoid the topic moving forward, lol.

We might have to revisit this once we know the terms of the agreement that was arrived at over the weekend, lol.